Author Topic: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is  (Read 49970 times)

Vajraprotector

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1. If His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a fake, as discussed in WSS's The Great Deception, why do all the High Lamas and even the protectors (taking trance in oracles) still support His Holiness?

2. Why does His Holiness put his "holy monk" and universal spiritual leader fame & reputation at stake just to make a stand about the protector issue?

3. Do you think a holy monk who has the power to reincarnate and has been venerated as an emanation of Chenrezig could be harm by a "spirit" and couldn't do anything but to call for "help" to the world to not practice Dorje Shugden?

Vajraprotector

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2010, 04:42:20 PM »
Today I watched this Youtube video with the title: Dalai Lama says his Gurus are WRONG!

Small | Large


I wonder:
If H.H. the Dalai Lama can say that his tutor, Trijang Rinpoche is wrong by practising Dorje Shugden, then it is also possible that what His Holiness himself is teaching can ALSO be wrong.

What His Holiness learned and practice was passed down from his Guru, and if His guru's teachings/practice can be "found" wrong, then logically, it is also possible for Dalai Lama's students or other high lamas to find out that what His Holiness teaches/practice can be wrong.

What do you think?

Lineageholder

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2010, 12:31:41 PM »
1. If His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a fake, as discussed in WSS's The Great Deception, why do all the High Lamas and even the protectors (taking trance in oracles) still support His Holiness?

2. Why does His Holiness put his "holy monk" and universal spiritual leader fame & reputation at stake just to make a stand about the protector issue?

3. Do you think a holy monk who has the power to reincarnate and has been venerated as an emanation of Chenrezig could be harm by a "spirit" and couldn't do anything but to call for "help" to the world to not practice Dorje Shugden?

Hi Vajraprotector, thanks for asking these questions - these are my answers:

1. He is supported by high lamas because they are either afraid of being punished by not supporting him and they have no freedom (the Tibetan people will generally blindly follow whatever he says), or they themselves are corrupt and playing a political game (as 'A Great Deception' says, "criminals wearing spiritual masks"), or they have blind faith (less likely).  There is a lot of pressure on Tibetans to show a unified front - hence all this nonsense about Dorje Shugden being sectarian and dividing the Tibetan people - if they want to get Tibet back. Even though this is never going to happen because the Chinese don't trust the Dalai Lama because of his politicking, it is a method for the Dalai Lama to control the people.  If they disagree with him he can say they're being divisive and ruining the chances of Tibetan independence, something he himself gave up on many years ago.

2. He doesn't believe he has put his reputation at stake because he's  arrogant and believes he's beyond reproach.  This is one reason why he never responded to original requests for dialogue by the Western Shugden Society.  The 'Great Fifth' had a similar attitude - he believed that because others regarded him as a holy being he could get away with murder!

3. You're right - if he really was a holy monk capable of reincarnation, or even if he had simply taken Buddhist refuge, the Dalai Lama wouldn't need to fear being harmed by Shugden.  So why did he give as one of his reasons for the ban that Dorje Shugden practice was harming his health?  He must know that this is a lie and therefore he's being deceptive.  It's simply a method to engender a strong emotional reaction in Tibetans so that they will  force the wiser, faithful and less superstitious Shugden practitioners to abandon their practice, thereby fulfilling the Dalai Lama's wish to destroy the tradition of relying on Dorje Shugden.   As the Dalai Lama himself said:

‘Until now you have a very good job on this issue. Hereafter also, continue this policy in a clever way. We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dhogyal is remembered.”

(From a speech delivered July 14th 1996, in Caux Switzerland)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 12:33:38 PM by Lineageholder »

a friend

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2010, 09:56:19 PM »
Dear Lineageholder,
You didn't answer about the Protectors. Since you seem to know quite a bit about the mind of human beings, I surmise that you might be able to know the answer to the "Protectors" part too. It would be interesting to listen to it.

Lineageholder

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 12:38:21 PM »
Dear Lineageholder,
You didn't answer about the Protectors. Since you seem to know quite a bit about the mind of human beings, I surmise that you might be able to know the answer to the "Protectors" part too. It would be interesting to listen to it.


Dear friend,

I'm not sure about this, so please let me have your view on this because it would be interesting to hear.

My understanding is that all these oracles channel worldly spirits, not enlightened protectors like Dorje Shugden.  Worldly spirits are subject to delusions so they make mistakes, get jealous, angry, and so forth, so perhaps this explains why they agree with and support the Dalai Lama - maybe they like to make mischief and the Dalai Lama's ban of Dorje Shugden created just that.  Also, these spirits being deluded, have pride and they want to be regarded as important.  The Dalai Lama pays them a lot of attention and listens to their advice when no one else would.  They naturally want this to continue.  If the Dalai Lama didn't rely on them, who would there be to invoke them and listen to them?  They would become irrelevant and that's the last thing they want.

Nechung was supposedly jealous of Dorje Shugden and so he gave advice to the Dalai Lama to give up the practice, which, unfortunately, he listened to and followed.  Nechung was trying to protect his position in the Dalai Lama's favours which was being threatened by Dorje Shugden, especially since DS gave the Dalai Lama correct information that enabled him to safely escape from Tibet.  It's well known that the Nechung oracle was left behind when the Dalai Lama fled and had to make his own escape.  This would have led to a simmering resentment towards Shugden.  Perhaps Nechung determined to take revenge and since the Dalai Lama is greatly influenced by him, he saw a chance to harm Shugden and consolidate his own position of importance as the main advisor to the Dalai Lama.

What does anyone else think?

kelsang

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2010, 04:30:07 PM »
Hello,

I think we should be very careful in what we say about, and how we judge others. Especially in the case of Nechung i have heard many absurd and superstitious theories. Although we might have no direct connection with some protector or deity, its always good to keep good relation with them. After all Nechung is also said to be one of the reasons for Dorje Shugden to arise and many of our Lineage Lamas used to rely on him. Although the explanation of Lineageholder sounds logical there are other possible explanations for the current situation. One of the most prominent Lamas of our lineage on the happy occasion of a private audience once told me that the current Nechung State Oracle as well as the previous one, are complete fake. The Kuten "Lama" is used as a powerfull tool to manipulate Tibetan exile politics in the interest of some criminal individuals and families. He explained at large how the Nechung Oracle was used to kill the 13th Dalai Lama and then later to stop the 14th Dalai Lama from taking the Sog de initiation of Dorje Shugden from HH Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang as well as other accounts of false and manipulative predictions. Even with genuine Oracles it is very difficult to tell when its the deity speaking and when it is contaminated by the ordinary mind of the medium. A friend of mine who was very close with Chöyang Duldzin Kuten Lama told me that only highly realized beings are able to distinguish between the two, apparently Kyabje Song Rinpoche was known for this particular ability.

Love Kelsang

a friend

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2010, 04:05:27 AM »
Dear Lineageholder,

I think you might want to ponder what Kelsang is saying.
After all, the one who requested Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, Panchen Sonam Drakpa and Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen "to protect" -referring to JE Rinpoché´s teachings- was the great Protector of Tibet: Nechung.

You might also like to look into the research that Trinley Kelsang has heroically been conducting. There he explains a specific circumstance about the Nechung that we all respect not being the "Nechung" that appears in trances (this is an old occurrence).

In a general way it´s very difficult for us, ordinary beings, to judge the motivations of others, particularly in the religious field, be they Protectors or human beings. A drastic judgment about the Lamas that give the appearance of following the DL is a daring judgment that I would abstain from if I were you.

a friend

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2010, 04:10:36 AM »
Thom,

I don´t think such prize is going to further our cause in democratic countries.
The WSS has indeed done a great job in defending those that the Dalai Lama has been persecuting. Unfortunately, a prize coming from China is only going to tip the scales in the DL´s favor, making the world believe that Dharamsala´s accusations --that the Protector´s people are sold to the Chinese-- are correct, when they are not.
I would like to know the answer to that prize from the WSS. I hope it to be sensible.

godi

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2010, 09:49:12 AM »
People’s Republic of China’s Great Human Rights Prize has been conferred to the Western Shugden Society...


Please help humourless people like me by using apropriate smilies.  ;D

Lineageholder

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2010, 01:10:17 PM »
Dear friends,

Thanks for your comments.  I've thought about it a bit more and I can see the distinction you are making between Nechung and the Nechung oracle.  I myself thought it strange that Trijang Dorjechang explained how Nechung extracted a promise from Duldzin Dragpa to become the protector of Je Tsongkhapa's Dharma and how he then brought together the conditions for Ngatrul Dragpa to become Dorje Shugden and these stories about Nechung being jealous of Dorje Shugden - they did seem to be contradictory, but now all is clear.  What you are saying is that the oracle of Nechung, being fake, became jealous and used his power to turn the Dalai Lama away from Dorje Shugden.  That makes a lot of sense.  :)

Vajraprotector

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2010, 11:53:47 PM »
Let's assume that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is really a Bodhisattva. Many people (including global political leaders, and many pioneers & great spritual leaders/ practitioners) have been moved by just being in his presence, way before all the politics and him becoming the icon for Buddhism.

So if HH is a real Bodhisattva,

a) he would not forbid people who practise Dorje Shugden, and  should be kind to them, invite them and slowly and give them logic and wisdom without fear because if these practitioners are WRONG, isn't that a BIG reason they need more Dharma and guidance??

b) As far as I know DS practice is not a main yidam/meditational practice, it is a "protector" practice. So if we can't rely on an (so-called) unenlightened protector (while holding our vows well - that means we can't be harmed by spirits) , then we shouldn't even seek help from ALL OTHER unenlightened protectors at all, right?




Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2010, 01:25:13 AM »
The whole issue is meaningless. Because:

1 - He is a human being (a fact)

2 - He is the leader of Tibetans (a fact)

3 - everything else in him, is unproveable (a fact)

All the questions about whether he is or is not the "real thing" are meaningless, because the previously mentioned three points hold true in any event and anything beyond those three, is just imagination, an opinion, a view, or a social contract.

Why would anyone care, or even think about, whether he is "this or that". For he is a human, in a certain social position. That's all. There is no beyond.








And yes, this pretty much holds true with everyone. Including your own Guru. He or she is just "a human, in a certain social position". No biggie. Just practice the teachings; but don't attach to the teacher. The twist is not the Teacher, nor the Teaching, but the practice, you see. And the practice is only made by you yourself! The Buddha merely shows the way.


Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2010, 02:14:28 AM »
I like to be contrarian, I am starting think worldly protectors in general get a really dirty second rate treatment and that isn't correct.  Actually so-called worldly protectors are practiced in the Theravada tradition (ie. the Book of Protection) and were the ones appointed directly by Buddha Shakyamuni such as in the Golden Light Sutra.  Everything else comes from tantra which not all traditions accept, so historically worldly protectors could be equally important and more transcultural than Vajrayana protectors which tend to be the ones considered transworldly.  Just some food for thought....

Yes indeed. It is wonderful that you brought this issue up. Thank you.

It is funny, but it seems that there are many teachings in our tradition (Geluk, Mahayana, Vajrayana), that do not seem to be based on anything, really. For instance, the teaching that if someone has taken the Refuge (in the Three Jewels), no spirit or so forth can harm that person. I have never heard an explanation why this would be so, by any TB-based Teacher. Nor has even JT explained it in the Lamrim Chenmo. Strange. But alas, there is a Theravada Sutta (sorry, I do not remember which, and am too lazy to check it just now), where the Four Kings (of the West, South, etc) approach the Buddha, with all their followers, the Nagas, Yakshas, Kinnaras, Garudas, etc, and they, out of their own accord, proclaim to the Buddha, that as they are followers of the recluse Gotama, the Seer, the Knower of the Worlds, The Unsurpassed, the Samyaksambuddha, they themselves shall not allow any spirit, ghost, or whatever, to harm anyone who likewise follows the same Dharma of Gotama! They say, that they shall make it so. But if there should anyway appear an idiot spirit, who tries something, it can be banished by merely mentioning the names of the Four Kings! The spirit should at that point self-shake itself into a pool of jelly, by the mere fear of having to face the Four Kings and their hosts. But if even that is not enough, the Kings tell Gotama that the followers of Gotama could, at the last resort, recite the Sutta - meaning reciting the names of those Kings and their hosts with the "spiritual ultimatum" that the Kings have made. At that point, the offending spirit will be totally ripped and annihilated by the attacking avalanche of the hosts of the Kings! No harm will come to the followers of Gotama, for they all - that means you and me - are under the protection of the Four Kings and all the yakshas, nagas, and so forth.

These so called worldly gods are the common protectors of all Buddhists. And the key to get their protection is simply to become a follower of the recluse Gotama, that is, the Buddha. If you are a Buddhist, you are automatically protected by these gods, who are in fact, your brothers and sisters, since they too are Buddhists. They are your Sangha members. Truly. The Theravada Sutta is very clear in this. These gods have taken Refuge, and they are intent of protecting everyone who also takes Refuge.

Pretty cool, yeah?

WisdomBeing

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2010, 05:18:00 PM »
1. If His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a fake, as discussed in WSS's The Great Deception, why do all the High Lamas and even the protectors (taking trance in oracles) still support His Holiness?

2. Why does His Holiness put his "holy monk" and universal spiritual leader fame & reputation at stake just to make a stand about the protector issue?

3. Do you think a holy monk who has the power to reincarnate and has been venerated as an emanation of Chenrezig could be harm by a "spirit" and couldn't do anything but to call for "help" to the world to not practice Dorje Shugden?

Just my 2 cents:
1. I don't think HH 14th Dalai Lama is fake. Even if he was identified with ulterior motives, i think that Chenrezig manifested as Lhamo Dondrup in order to guide Tibetan Buddhism to where it is today.

2. Re putting his reputation at risk - there must be a bigger picture at hand. Especially on the basis of 1. if he is an enlightened Being, there must be a reason why HH the Dalai Lama will risk all for a greater benefit for mankind. That's the only logic I can find.

3. Definitely if HH Dalai Lama cannot be harmed by a spirit - why does he keep talking about it in public, despite the risks to his reputation - again, I think he has a much bigger picture in mind.

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

crazycloud

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2010, 07:18:24 PM »
But who are these conflicting parties exactly?   
Why has this been turned into a circus that has lead to more division than found before 1978?
Also, if the DL truly researched Shugden, why does he only acknowlege negative references?
Why does he speak with so much emotion on this issue?


These are very important questions indeed.

If one thinks clearly, something definitely emerges, no?
 :o
 :'(