Author Topic: A mountain of absurd consequences  (Read 7337 times)

Namdrol

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A mountain of absurd consequences
« on: January 21, 2012, 10:38:05 PM »
I think this quote by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche himself sums up all the mess surrounding the Dorje Shugden issues today, this was written by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors (click here for the complete version: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=52/#1):

"In order for someone to become convinced that Dorje Shugden was a worldly spirit "A mountain of absurd consequences, previously non-existent distorted ideas, would have to be accepted.""

What is amazing is Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche wrote this in 1967, way way before Dorje Shugden became controversial and banned. Trijang Rinpoche already predicted it coming, therefore it is even more convincing that the whole Dorje Shugden issue is staged for some bigger picture.

What are the "mountain of absurd consequences, previously non-existent distorted ideas" that you can think of? These are mine:

1. The practice of Dorje Shugden leads to the degeneration of Buddha's teachings;

2. Worship of Dorje Shugden harms Tibetan independence and the Dalai Lama's life;

3. Shugden lamas/worshippers are Chinese spies and funded by the Chinese government

....more, more mountains of absurd consequences and previously non-existent distorted ideas please...



Ensapa

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Re: A mountain of absurd consequences
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 06:23:24 AM »
here are more distorted views that you can add to the list.

- Shugden is sectarian and will punish and destroy the other lineages of buddhism
from wiki:

xx Rinpoche, one of the most important Lamas in the xx tradition has said that the practice of Shugden "causes fear." He adds the practice is considered to create obstacles to spiritual practice. (can you believe a high lama would say that?)

- Shugden causes fear (...right)

- Shugden is a ghost

- If you practice Shugden your Dharma practice will degenerate

These are some of the crazy allegations against Shugden that I have heard so far.

Ensapa

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Re: A mountain of absurd consequences
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2012, 06:42:29 AM »
and also,


xx high lama claims that Shugden can cause devotees to become "nervous, confused and upset."cc Rinpoche, late head of the xx tradition, said that "Shugden is a ghost. We xx practitioner do not follow him. We propagate only those protectors that were bound by Padmasambhava. Shugden came after Padmasambhava."

DharmaDefender

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Re: A mountain of absurd consequences
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2012, 11:37:28 AM »
Other absurd allegations:

  • Every time the Dalai Lama is sick, it is because of Dorje Shugden
  • Not only does Dorje Shugden harm Tibetan independence, but hes the reason why Tibet was invaded in the first place
  • Worshippers of Dorje Shugden are a cult (although Id debate how cultish we are, from a socio-anthropological perspective - for once, wheres our enigmatic leader?)
  • Abandoning Dorje Shugden and his practice will lead him to take revenge on you
  • Dorje Shugden is a spirit, not a dharma protector who arose out of the murder of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen
  • Dorje Shugden is responsible for Mad Cow Disease  ??? SO FAR OUT, the people mustve been whacked out of their minds

Ensapa

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Re: A mountain of absurd consequences
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2012, 09:56:28 AM »
No matter what the allegations are against Dorje Shugden, people are still buying the fact that Dorje Shugden is bad just because in mainstream Buddhism, everyone says that he is because the Dalai Lama says so. Sometimes I do wonder whether or not people are in Buddhism because they want the teachings, or because they just want to break free of their mainstream Christian background. I do hope that as this website grows, more and more people will see the truth and really think on what is right or wrong.

dsiluvu

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Re: A mountain of absurd consequences
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2012, 12:52:56 PM »
These absurd allegations are very creative I must say... hats off to the ones who keep coming up with them... quite entertaining actually lol. Here is one from the office of Dalai Lama site:


Especially inappropriate in relation to the well-being of Tibetan society:
Propitiating Dolgyal is particularly troublesome, given the Tibetan people's present difficult circumstances. Textual and historical research demonstrates that the spirit Dolgyal arose out of hostility to the great Fifth Dalai Lama and his government. The Fifth Dalai Lama, who assumed both the spiritual and temporal leadership of Tibet in the 17th century, personally denounced Dolgyal as a malevolent spirit that arose out of misguided intentions and is detrimental to the welfare of beings in general and the Tibetan government headed by the Dalai Lamas in particular. The Thirteenth Dalai Lama and other respected Tibetan spiritual masters have also spoken out strongly against this practice. Therefore, in the current Tibetan context, in which unity among the Tibetan people is vitally important, engaging in this controversial and divisive propitiatory practice is inappropriate.

His Holiness has strongly urged his followers to consider carefully the problems of Dolgyal practice on the basis of these three reasons and to act accordingly. He has stated that, as a Buddhist leader with a special concern for the Tibetan people, it is his responsibility to speak out against the damaging consequences of this kind of spirit worship. Whether or not his advice is heeded, His Holiness has made clear, is a matter for the individual. However, since he personally feels strongly about how negative this practice is, he has requested those who continue to propitiate Dolgyal not to attend his formal religious teachings, which traditionally require the establishment of a teacher-disciple relationship.

Ensapa

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Re: A mountain of absurd consequences
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2012, 08:41:49 AM »
These absurd allegations are very creative I must say... hats off to the ones who keep coming up with them... quite entertaining actually lol. Here is one from the office of Dalai Lama site:


Especially inappropriate in relation to the well-being of Tibetan society:
Propitiating Dolgyal is particularly troublesome, given the Tibetan people's present difficult circumstances. Textual and historical research demonstrates that the spirit Dolgyal arose out of hostility to the great Fifth Dalai Lama and his government. The Fifth Dalai Lama, who assumed both the spiritual and temporal leadership of Tibet in the 17th century, personally denounced Dolgyal as a malevolent spirit that arose out of misguided intentions and is detrimental to the welfare of beings in general and the Tibetan government headed by the Dalai Lamas in particular. The Thirteenth Dalai Lama and other respected Tibetan spiritual masters have also spoken out strongly against this practice. Therefore, in the current Tibetan context, in which unity among the Tibetan people is vitally important, engaging in this controversial and divisive propitiatory practice is inappropriate.

His Holiness has strongly urged his followers to consider carefully the problems of Dolgyal practice on the basis of these three reasons and to act accordingly. He has stated that, as a Buddhist leader with a special concern for the Tibetan people, it is his responsibility to speak out against the damaging consequences of this kind of spirit worship. Whether or not his advice is heeded, His Holiness has made clear, is a matter for the individual. However, since he personally feels strongly about how negative this practice is, he has requested those who continue to propitiate Dolgyal not to attend his formal religious teachings, which traditionally require the establishment of a teacher-disciple relationship.

I wonder who wrote that but one thing for sure, it does sound very confusing to people who are new in this. It is extremely misleading for people who are not aware of the whole situation to read material like this as they would see it as the truth. There is an inaccurate fact in this, that HHDL did not say that Dorje Shugden practitioners should be excluded from the general teachings that he gives, the ones that does not require initiations. I noticed that he does not talk about Dorje Shugden when he is not giving empowerments or initiations. One thing interesting to ponder about is how much bad karma would these people who spread lies about Dorje Shugden reap?

beggar

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Re: A mountain of absurd consequences
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2012, 10:19:07 AM »
Absurd consequences? I am laughing when I recall this article, which brings the most absurd consequence of proclaiming that Dorje Shugden is a spirit:

Has the Gelug Lineage lost its effectiveness?
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/has-the-gelug-lineage-lost-its-effectiveness/

This is the most absurd consequence of all - to claim that Dorje Shugden, such a central practice to all of the Gelug lineage and its many masters and practitioners today, is a spirit has tremendous knock-on effects not just for today's practitioners but for what the validity and effectiveness of an entire lineage.

This article looks at the domino effect of claiming this protector practice to be a demonic one - how it, in effect, nullifies the lineage, the credibility of the Lamas and the effectiveness of the entire community of Gelug monasteries / institutions. Is it absurd to think that, because Dorje Shugden has been "revealed" (horror!) as a spirit, an entire lineage is effectively nullified and has lost all blessings?

Yes, very absurd. Read it for yourself - pasted below again, just because I love a good hard think and because, when presented so very, very clearly, you will see just how spot on Trijang Rinpoche was in predicting the absurdity of it all.

(emphasis in red is my own) 

Has the Gelug Lineage lost its effectiveness?

There isn’t a Tibetan Buddhist in the world who hasn’t heard of the recent controversies surrounding the practice of the Protector Deity Dorje Shugden. Since the Dalai Lama banned the practice, it has been the most talked about issue within the Buddhist world.

The Dalai Lama and his supporters claim that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit and praying to him is equal to praying to a spirit, which destroys the basis of our most basic Buddhist refuge vows and commitments, and creates heavy, negative karma. They claim that the worship of Dorje Shugden will result in practitioners’ eventual misfortunes, shortening of the Dalai Lama’s life and the failure of the cause for Tibetan independence.

If this is REALLY the case, then we would like to point out the very serious consequences that this has for the future of Buddhist practice, especially within the Gelug school:

The Consequences for Tantra in the Gelugpa school

1) We are told that anyone who practices Dorje Shugden has lost their refuge. If they have lost their refuge, this means they have also lost their basis of all three sets of vows: Pratimoksha, Bodhisattva and Tantra. If they have lost the basis of all their vows and samaya, then all their practices will degenerate and bring no result. These practices include all their sadhanas, Tsog, tantric meditations, pujas, rituals and divinations. It means that the people who practice Dorje Shugden have broken everything that is sacred and pure. Therefore, they cannot be considered Buddhists anymore, let alone accomplish their practices, and they have sealed their fate in the three lower realms for an immeasurable amount of time.

2) Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, the Panchen Lamas and thousands of other elite Buddhist masters such as Kyabje Ling Rinpoche have practiced Dorje Shugden or at least respected him very much. If we follow the same line of thought, it means these lamas have also broken their refuge, have not practiced correctly and are therefore not correct objects of refuge for us anymore; we cannot consider them as qualified lineage teachers or rely on them. Nor can we accept, receive or practice with confidence any of the tantric lineages they have passed to us. As such, all tantric lineages become null and ineffective.

Within the tantras of the Gelug school, lamas such as Pabongka Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche are a part of the lineage lamas we recite supplication prayers to daily. For example, in the 13-Deity and Solitary Yamantaka sadhanas, there are 40 lamas whose names we recite and request for their blessings. It is important that we recite these supplications to our root and lineage lamas to absorb their blessings into our practice.

All the sadhanas of Vajrayogini, Heruka, Yamantaka and Guhyasamaja that are taught and practiced within the Gelug school today all include Pabongka Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche within the prayers to the lineage lamas. How is this possible if they have all broken their refuge and are now in the 3 lower realms? How can we be taking refuge and requesting blessings from beings that are not correct objects of refuge? In fact, the Short Solitary-Yamantaka sadhana and the 6-Session Guru Yoga were composed by Pabongka Rinpoche – this is recited by every Gelug tantric initiate daily. The only currently used long and short Vajrayogini sadhana within the Gelugpa school, and the commentaries on Vajrayogini and Yamantaka were also composed by Pabongka Rinpoche. That would mean every high Gelugpa lama and learned Geshe have been stripped of all their attainments.

His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama has received the bulk of his tantric practices from these very root and lineage lamas, and is now initiating thousands of people into these same practices. For example, the practice of Kalachakra he bestows on countless people every year comes directly from Kyabje Ling Rinpoche. Since Kyabje Ling Rinpoche respected and has written prayers to Dorje Shugden, how can he be a fit lineage lama? And therefore, how can the Kalachakra lineage of the Dalai Lama be correct and bear results if we do the practice when the source is stained?

We are led to understand that all Gelug sadhanas today are therefore nullified and empty of blessings, and we should stop them immediately. After all, it cannot be that the lineage lamas broke their refuge only in one aspect but remained pure in all their other practices. Once you have broken your refuge, which is the basis of all other vows and commitments, it applies to one’s entire practice. It is thus logical for us to say that NOBODY alive in the Gelugpa lineage today, including the Dalai Lama, has attainments or a potent lineage because they have all obtained their teachings and practices from a broken, tainted lineage of teachers.

3) H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama himself has said that he does the Yamantaka, Guhyasamaya and Heruka sadhanas daily. This is according to the advice of Tsongkhapa who recommended these three sadhanas to his followers during this degenerate Kaliyuga age. Since His Holiness does the 3 Kingly Sadhanas every day, he would also be supplicating these same lamas who are apparently not worthy of our prayers and refuge anymore. This includes Pabongka Rinpoche and His Holiness’ own Gurus Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche. This means that the Dalai Lama is also doing practices which have no correct basis or blessings, and therefore should have no attainments. Either the lineage lamas are attained and without fault, or they are ordinary beings without blessings – which one is it? 

In fact, it is safe to say that the whole Gelugpa tantric system is now faulted. When there is a break in the lineage of lamas, this would mean that the practices are now invalid and without lineal blessings. The practices are nullified and should be considered ineffective. Is that what we are to believe from now on? 

The Consequences for Sutra in the Gelugpa school

4) We must also consider the sutra teachings and practices: Thousands of elite, qualified and very high learned Geshes have arisen from the three pillars of learning (Gaden, Sera and Drepung Monasteries) over the last 600 years. Within that time, Dorje Shugden practice has been very strong and highly respected over the last 350 years in all three monasteries. In fact, his images, statues and thangkas are prevalent throughout these three great pillars within their prayer halls, khangtsens and private ladrangs. So over the last 350 years, thousands of qualified Geshes and monks have practiced Dorje Shugden, or received their sutra and scriptural trainings from other Geshes and high lamas who practiced Dorje Shugden. In fact, within the three pillars, the teachers and disciples who practice Dorje Shugden are so intertwined that to remove one and say that he is not qualified would cause the whole monastic system to collapse with a huge domino effect.

If we consider that Dorje Shugden practitioners have all broken their refuge and are no longer true Buddhists or true objects of refuge, then all these Geshes and high lamas are not qualified to teach in any way; their thousands of students over the last 350 years have been relying on unqualified sources and receiving teachings from impure teachers. Their students henceforth are therefore monks with no true basis of refuge… if they are monks at all now. In fact, Ordination vows passed on would be invalid. Therefore, it is possible that His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama and thousands of monks in the three pillars are not truly ordained Sangha. Also, since they engage in wrong “spirit” practices and are not real Buddhists, we can assume that once they pass away, they would take rebirth in the 3 lower realms.

Even if the current monks and Geshes have abandoned the practice of Dorje Shugden, their teachers and lineage teachers of the past did the practice and are therefore not considered true or correct Buddhists. For example, Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden all his life until he passed away and many teachings were passed from him to his close disciple Lama Zopa. Lama Zopa has given up the practice now but this still makes him unqualified as his teacher did not give up the practice. Which Gelugpa lama now, of the 21st century, has not received teachings either directly from Trijang Rinpoche himself or through his lineage? All these lamas must therefore be considered unqualified.

All the monks of the three pillars now are therefore continuing to receive scriptural and sutra teachings from incorrect, impure sources. Hence, there are no longer any pure, unbroken blessings or lineage in Gaden, Sera and Drepung today. If this is the case, the three monasteries should stop teaching immediately and close down completely. It would be very wrong to continue spreading broken lineages, broken samaya and teachings from unqualified teachers.

If we continue to uphold this illogical ban we are also invalidating 600 years of attained masters and their lineages; we are considering the three great pillars of knowledge and practice as unnecessary and void of results. As we have shown clearly, to state that the single practice of Dorje Shugden is not true to Buddhism has very far-reaching consequences. It means that everything being taught and practiced in the Gelugpa school of Buddhism today – including all personal teachings, practices and advice of the 14th Dalai Lama – are baseless, incorrect, impure and devoid of blessings. Actually, the whole Gelugpa lineage should be eliminated from the landscape of Buddhism. In this case, should we now consider that His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama and all other Gelug teachers are ill qualified?

If this is the debate on Dorje Shugden today, then we had better be prepared for what it really means for the entirety of our practices now and in the future. Whatever practice we choose isn’t just a simple choice. It carries far heavier consequences than what the Dalai Lama has simplified as just being a choice that is ‘up to you’.

There's further forum discussion on this subject here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2552

vajratruth

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Re: A mountain of absurd consequences
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2012, 09:33:33 PM »

2) Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, the Panchen Lamas and thousands of other elite Buddhist masters such as Kyabje Ling Rinpoche have practiced Dorje Shugden or at least respected him very much. If we follow the same line of thought, it means these lamas have also broken their refuge, have not practiced correctly and are therefore not correct objects of refuge for us anymore; we cannot consider them as qualified lineage teachers or rely on them. Nor can we accept, receive or practice with confidence any of the tantric lineages they have passed to us. As such, all tantric lineages become null and ineffective.


Great write-up and excellent points made, Beggar. I was just wondering, if merely by association with Dorje Shugden's practice even highly accomplished lamas like Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche can be considered to have broken their refuge and rendered themselves incapable of proper practice and attainments, wouldn't that also mean Pabongkha Rinpoche's guru the great Mahasiddha Tagphu Pemavajra  is also similarly stained because he was the one who transmitted Dorje shugden's practice in its entirety to Pabobgkha Rinpoche?

And if so (and saying nothing about how this would flaw the entire of Tagphu Pemavajra's lineage) wouldn't that also implicate the founder of the Gelugpa School, Lama Tsongkhapa himself because  Tagphu Rinpoche received the Dorje Shugden practice from Shugden emanating as Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen in Tushita, witnessed by Tsongkhapa himself. And assuming that Lama Tsongkhapa also made the mistake of allowing a practice (that would eventually destroy his own lineage, not to mention yield disastrous consequences to the practitioner) to be transmitted literally right from under his nose, that would also imply that Buddha Shakyamuni made a mistake about Tsongkhapa?

Buddha Shakyamuni prophesied the coming of Tsongkhapa, who is actually Buddha Manjushri being reborn as a boy, and even gave/foretold his name to be Sumartikirti and spoke of the great deeds Tsongkhapa would perform. Was the Buddha also mistaken?

And if the Buddha was also wrong, then Guru Rinpoche was also wrong for he too prophesied that a boy who is the emanation of a great Bodhisattva would be born bearing the name Losang Drakpa (Tsongkhapa). And if Guru Rinpoche was also prone to error, what does that say about the Nyingma lineage he founded and the teachings he transmitted?

Opponents to Dorje Shugden might disagree with how the Shugden teachings was actually transmitted but this history of transmission of Dorje Shugden's practice has been accepted within the Gelug School for hundreds of years. Why not object then and only now when the cancer they spread seems like coming around to taint them as well?

A mountain of absurd consequences indeed!


Ensapa

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Re: A mountain of absurd consequences
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2012, 05:30:59 AM »
In this context, the Dalai Lama actually questioned the validity of the teachings by Tapu Dorjechang when he himself is also adhering to Tapu Dorjechang's teachings (Cittamani Tara was also brought to us by Tapu Dorjechang) So if Dorje Shugden's practice is questionable, shouldnt the rest of Tapu Dorjechang's teachings be questionable as well? If the previous Dalai Lamas could accept his teachings and so did elite masters such as Pabongkha, Serkong etc can accept Tapu Dorjechang's visions, why is the current Dalai Lama rejecting them?

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: A mountain of absurd consequences
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2015, 11:28:45 AM »
As this article appropriately identifies the prediction from previous Trijang Rinpoche that a mountain of absurd consequences will arise, it is good knowledge to read so far how much accusations against Dorje Shugden practice is baseless.

From personal calamities to being harmful to the Dalai Lama's life had been proven to be without any evidence.

In this time of great debate and accusations against Dorje Shugden, it is imperative for Shugdenpas to know what had been the basis of accusations and then what new will come along.

The latest is that Shugdenpas are Chinese spies.  Amazing.