Author Topic: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?  (Read 79677 times)

Lee Dhi

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2010, 03:28:32 PM »
Lama Yeshe practices such pure Guru Devotion, which form the strong and stable foundation for spiritual progress and advancement! I am grateful that he successfully passed on this virtue to his student as reflected in this article! Other than the fact that there is no "backed up" reason to ban Dorje Shugden (DS) practice, many great DS practitioners like Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche and Lama Yeshe continue their practice of DS because of Guru Devotion.

It is really incomprehensible how the Dalai Lama can ignore one of the most important principal of Tibetan Buddhism, i.e. Guru Devotion, in his decision to stop DS practice. In fact, after the Dalai Lama announced the ban, some images of Trijang Rinpoche's images were remove from some monasteries (videos on YouTube). It was heartbreaking to see the inner conflict monks and lay practitioners were experiencing when their fundamental understanding of pure Dharma was falling apart in front of their own eyes. It was frightening to know that the cause for this conflict was the key leader himself.

As FPMT "witch hunt" DS practitioners, it is a copy paste of what the Dalai Lama did to Trijang Rinpoche: FPMT is indirectly stating that their founder and root Guru, Lama Yeshe, whose main protector was DS, is wrong. In fact, this act destroys the core that formed the very establishment of FPMT itself.

The lack of gratitude is also very sad to witness. In an interview with Lobsang Yeshe of Sera Monastery, it was the DS oracle who gave the instructions and escape passage through the Southern route to save the Dalai Lama. Lobsang Yeshe finds it difficult to grasp how the Dalai Lama can accuse DS for being an evil spirit.

I pray that FPMT will sincerely confess these acts that has caused so much suffering. If Dharma is to stand a chance to prosper swiftly during these degenerate time, much purification needs to be done as actions that cause pain to others can only accumulate negative karma.

Lee Dhi

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2010, 03:40:53 PM »
I am very touched by Sangye who is able to practice such kindness and patience while witnessing the "wrong direction" FPMT is taking. Despite the sadness and frustration the Dorje Shugden ban would have caused, Sangye commits to practicing Dharma purely to generate the cause for all this horror to end. If all Dharma practitioners act like Sangye, Buddhadharma will not become subjects of criticism for others.I learn something from precious from you! Thank you.

The mixing of politics with Dharma has caused a lot of skepticism in Buddhadharma. There are videos mocking the Dalai Lama and the teachings he represent on human rights, peace and freedom. It is shameful because it is the non-virtuous acts practitioners have committed that caused such a negative affect. This is simply aligned to the rule of cause and affect.

If we can do something to create this negative affect, we can also do something to end it. How? Begin by choosing religious freedom: allow individuals the choice to a practice that is believed to be passed on to them by their revered Gurus. This is the most basic a human can offer another.

diamond girl

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2010, 06:30:31 PM »
I am amazed with how much is shared on this thread.  By reading many of the comments, it is clear that the ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden has negative repercussions.  Look at Lama Osel and what's happening?  Being recognised as the reincarnate of the great teacher Lama Yeshe, and yet not having the Karma to be a great teacher now. It's quite clear it's the results of cause and effect.  Amends must be made now if Dharma is to flourish and grow to benefit others.

wang

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2010, 12:10:36 AM »
This gets confusing the more I think about it. FPMT have given up Dorje Shugden, but they are also under the guidance of Lama Zopa.

In the FPMT website, Lama Zopa says
"Kopan Monastery had been performing the Dorje Shugden practice from the beginning, as this was Lama Yeshe’s main protector, on whom he relied whenever he needed help for anything. But since His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the one who holds, preserves, and spreads the entire Buddhist Dharma—both the lesser vehicle and the Mahayana, Paramitayana, and Secret Mantra Vajrayana—without the existence of His Holiness, not only Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism but Buddhism in general would suffer in the world. It would be similar to when children are left behind when their parents die. It would be like that.....

....Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfill His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil. For us ordinary people it is difficult to judge, because we cannot see these lamas ’ minds."

Yet, on the same page:
"Once you have made a Dharma connection with the virtuous friend, your guru, you cannot give up this relationship unless the guru himself or herself says, “Don’t come,” or “Don’t regard me as your guru.” By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life. Since you haven’t given me up, I suggest that you confess to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso about what happened, and devote yourself again to this virtuous friend."

Lama Zopa encourages FPMT to follow the Dalai Lama's wishes, which is to give up the practice. But in the 2nd part, he also advises one of his students to "devote himself to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso". How else can the student do that without picking up the practice of Dorje Shugden again? And if he does so, he is going against the 1st part of Lama Zopa's advice. Feels like a no-win situation, either way it is disobeying one of your gurus.


There is no confusion for me an Asian on what he means by these talks/writings.  It is always the case that what an Asian said may not be what he means.  By linking up all Lama Zopa's talk as you did, you will know :

1. He refused to have any negative comment on the protector as reason for the ban but just:
 ''This was done for His Holiness.''.

2. Don't give up any of your Lama related to the protector and the protector:
"This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil."

3. Even though Geshe Kelsang Gyatso confront HHDL in public, don't give him up:
 "'By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life." was pretty direct, right?


All Lama Zopa hint is that: Hey you folks learn Lamrim well, did you? Now I am under huge pressure to ban the protector due to politics, and I will do it  'on the table'(or just for new comer to FPMT), so you old folks don't lose faith on your master and continue with your protector practice in secret if you have the commitment.  Please understand my difficulties...

His implicit message is quite clear(can you think of even a better way to pass this message out?...).

thor

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2010, 11:50:46 PM »
There is no confusion for me an Asian on what he means by these talks/writings.  It is always the case that what an Asian said may not be what he means.  By linking up all Lama Zopa's talk as you did, you will know :

1. He refused to have any negative comment on the protector as reason for the ban but just:
 ''This was done for His Holiness.''.

2. Don't give up any of your Lama related to the protector and the protector:
"This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil."

3. Even though Geshe Kelsang Gyatso confront HHDL in public, don't give him up:
 "'By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life." was pretty direct, right?


All Lama Zopa hint is that: Hey you folks learn Lamrim well, did you? Now I am under huge pressure to ban the protector due to politics, and I will do it  'on the table'(or just for new comer to FPMT), so you old folks don't lose faith on your master and continue with your protector practice in secret if you have the commitment.  Please understand my difficulties...

His implicit message is quite clear(can you think of even a better way to pass this message out?...).


Are you saying is that he implicitly supports Dorje Shugden practice? Zopa Rinpoche has done Dorje Shugden in the past as Lama Yeshe was doing it.

I have been thinking about this for the past few days and have returned to the FPMT site a number of times to read Lama Zopa's statements on the Shugden issue. His position is unclear and fluctuates, almost as if he is moving from one camp to the other, or intentionally staying on the fence as much as he can. I would disagree though, that being Asian has anything to do with it. Lama Zopa is manifesting inconsistency... now why is that?

And why would Lama Zopa advise FPMT to give up Dorje Shugden knowing full well that it would break samaya with Lama Yeshe? Consider this:

I doubt Lama Zopa has chosen this path for political convenience. Being the great lama that he is, he would have thought about it thoroughly and chosen the path of greatest long-term benefit. The broken samaya with Lama Yeshe / Lama Osel can be repaired in the future should FPMT once again pick up the practice of Dorje Shugden. Difficult? Perhaps. Impossible? No. If FPMT defy the Dalai Lama, all FPMT centres would be adversely affected. Some might close, some might be attacked, students might leave... whatever it is, the effect will definitely be negative. And in his wisdom, Lama Zopa has chosen to maintain the facade of following the Dalai Lama and take the temporary loss of Lama Osel.

The inconsistencies are possibly an insight into his real intentions.

Lama Osel is the unmistaken incarnation of Lama Yeshe whose pure nature and drive to help others led to the founding of FPMT. That same mindstream is in Lama Osel and if he could not benefit others in this lifetime, he would have chosen to take a new rebirth. If he remains with us, then perhaps there are other things in store for FPMT and all is not lost...

wang

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2010, 12:41:13 AM »
I suppose it is a 'too big to fail' case agian:) . 

Be leader of such a big organization, Lam Zopa should be under monitored closely by the exile government. Everybody know what the consequence for FPMT will be if he openly confront with HHDL.  I suppose Lama Zopa consider continuing on with Lama Yeshe's work(FPMT) be the most critical objective for him under this turbulence and the 'ínconsistent message' address to two groups in actual:
- For those have connection with lamas practicing protector, don't be disturbed by this event
- For those new comers, not practicing it. 

I don't think it is only Lama Zopa taking on this stand, my observation is that a lot lamas in the 'protector camp' practice it personally but not transmitting it to the public after this conflict be made public.  I consider it be a compassionate means not let new comers be involved in this fight, which will not do good to their study on the path, at least at this moment.

PS: just read in other thread : 'DS was very popular in Tibet and now he is even more well known throughout the world. Millions in China today worships the Protector.'.  No, Han Chinese seldom practice it, as the transmission was stopped during the cultural revolution(for those receive this teaching from their lama before 1949), and as said above, young lamas do not transmit it to general public(would not exclude possibility of transmitting it to their monks in own monasteries, but that won't add up to 'millions'...)

« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 12:50:45 AM by wang »

thor

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2010, 12:17:20 AM »
Thank you for your comments, i find it interesting what you say about China and Dorje Shugden practice. I had heard rumours that the China government were sort of encouraging the populace to this practice because it is seen to be anti-dalai lama. Is that not the case? You sound as though you have personal insight into this.

Only a few lamas are openly transmitting the Dorje Shugden lineage and as you say, most in the protector camp just practice it personally. AND, many in the 'non-protector' camp are also practising! This site is considered THE authoritative site on Dorje Shugden by many. Check on the Great Masters page to see just how many 'clean' lamas are on it!

wang

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2010, 08:03:46 AM »
1. I use 'protect camp' vs 'non-protector camp' just for ease of communications.  Actually I hate this labeling, though it looks be the mostly asked question about a Gelukpa lama teaching in the west, it was not the case in China before.  But I see that someone is 'ímporting' this conflict from overseas in past 2 years..


2. I did stay in China for some years, and start my path following the Geluk masters there..

To be more accurate in wordings, I would like to say that

- the China government is not promoting DS practice to lay Chinese.  How can they do it even if they want to for political reason?  If they have this intention, they can only promote it via those Gelukpa masters practicing it.  And as I said, I am not aware of any lama transmitting  this practice to the public/lay people in my 10+ years stay in China.

- the China government 'may' know who is practicing and who is not practicing this practice in overseas, and may have more favourable treatment for those practicing it when they visited China.  But so what?  Will the American government treat HHDL and current 'Pachen Lama' at the same level if he come to US?  To judge whether the China government is really doing it in the Gelukpa monasteries as the exile government claimed, we need proof.  However, all I read from overseas sources was mostly about whom(be a newly back from India monk or a well-respected old monk stay in home country for long) be suppressed by the local government when he tried to follow HHDL's order to stop the protector practice.  Hey it is about banning an old practice which is the local's tradition but not promoting a new practice not of their tradition, looks the exile government reverse their logic..Personally I visited some monasteries in Tibet and not heard of 'setting up new protector statue in those don't have this practice' etc either

LosangKhyentse

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2010, 10:12:24 AM »
 I have visited Tibet last year and they have repaired and fixed old chapels and even put armed Chinese young soldiers to guard it. I have seen. The guards were very friendly and nice when we visited.


dsnowlion

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2010, 09:16:42 PM »
Well one thing for sure and for obvious reasons the Chinese Govt actually placed a huge image of Dorje Shugden behind the Panchen Lama boy. Yes it is obvious that that's Chinese propoganda but for those who are new and who  probably don't know, couldn't care less, they will to find out more on discover the benefits and start practicing.

A picture paint a thousand words.   ;)

wang

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2010, 12:06:28 AM »
That was a faked photo by photoshop, see the original one as attached.

The China government would like to 'unite' with any high lama(no matter which lineage, what practice they have) if they can, as far as they don't openly speak against the China policy.  That's politics..

As said, someone from overseas is boiling this protector issue up in China.  Unfortunately, without much information in China, the general Han Buddhist community would only perceive that as this is banned by Dalai Lama, there must be something wrong, hence better keep distance. Some teachers of other lineages has openly commented on this protector already(try to capture a bigger share out of the 'Tibetan Buddhism market' in China?), ....This is sad indeed..
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 01:07:17 AM by wang »

WisdomBeing

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2010, 05:49:37 PM »
Wang,

Thank you for sharing the info above re the faked photo. I must say i'm shocked because i thought the other photo was real. How did you find out about this?

So are you saying that the Chinese Buddhists are pro-Dalai Lama in general? Who do you think is behind 'boiling the protector issue' in China?

Curious...
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

LosangKhyentse

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2010, 10:41:04 PM »

Maybe this photo is faked? Who is to say?
TK

wang

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2010, 12:36:34 AM »
Wang,

Thank you for sharing the info above re the faked photo. I must say i'm shocked because i thought the other photo was real. How did you find out about this?

So are you saying that the Chinese Buddhists are pro-Dalai Lama in general? Who do you think is behind 'boiling the protector issue' in China?

Curious...

It can be google out in Chinese, I find this photo in a mainland Buddhist magazine site.  Anyway itsn't it strange to have a big protector thangka behind him instead of Lama Chopa merit field?  By comparing the two photo, you can also see that the protector thangka is exceptionally  colorful compared to a naturally taking photo..

I find the presentation about Panchen Lama and Protector practice situation in China in this site quite far from my 'real touch' about it based on personal contact and forum discussion in Chinese.  To make it short:

Historically:

- Han Chinese has a long history of contact with Vajrayana back to 1000 years ago, and some tantra was translated into Chinese.  Though HYT was not popular in China(said to be too much against the Confusian value), some ritual(like fire puja) was adapted by Han Buddhist as mainstream practice.
- Tibetan master was treated high by the court, not only in Yuan dynasty(as they were Mongolian), but also the following Ming dynasty(Han ruler) and Qing dynasty(Manchurian ruler).  So the connection with Tibet masters last for 700 years..
- Back in 20s of last century, Han monks went to Lhasa for study and translated important Gelukpa text like Larim Chemo into Chinese.

So the Han-Tibet relationship is not that a few simple words we can explain like what appear in the western media. And it is natural development for Han Chinese to 'merge' Tibetan Buddhism into the Han culture.

In past 20 years:
- with open up of China, Han Buddhist has more freedom in teaching and studying, so the number of Buddhist grow
- However in comparison, I am afraid that the rate of growth of Christian should be higher than Buddhist. 
- And within Buddhist there are more tends to Tibetan Buddhism, so Tibetan Buddhism is widely accepted by Han Chinese, unike before which accepted by the court only(some resistant remain though)
- Within Tibetan Buddhsim, the Nyingma lineage has faster grow compared with Gelukpa.  Maybe due to the more 'popular religion' like style of Nyingma practice compared with Gelukpa.
- Within Gelukpa, in mainland, no master openly talk supportive of it or against it.  They focus on other non-protector related teachings.

So with these big picture in mind, the 'protector issue' was not an issue in China.  Those got this practice practice it(only two dhrama friend I know, who got it from elder practitioner), and those not having it not attack it.  Only in last 2 years it got boiled up by outsider(hence some locals start to gossip about this master practice protector that not etc..)..As most new Tibetan Buddism followers are non-Gelukpa, you can predict the outcome of it...

Dalai Lama is involved in politics, mainland Chinese seldom talk about him, but I suppose most Buddhist 'respect' him as he is viewed as big master of Tibetan Buddhism, but most 'non-Buddhist' not like him much, due to national feeling...

PS: I did a google serach again by the Chinese name 'Panchen', there are 3 sites which post my attached photo, together with another blog my friend showed me months ago, it add up to 4.   And there is only one site posting Panchen with protector thangka photo.  Which site?  This site's(.dorjeshugden.com) affliate in Chinese ...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 01:17:20 PM by wang »

thor

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2010, 02:20:22 AM »
Can't say which photo is real or fake... but its odd that the lama choepa merit field is hanging so low behind the Chinese panchen lama. Its situations like this that causes others to associate the Dorje Shugden issue with China and Chinese spies and I find it to be incredibly annoying everytime I read something along those lines.

Would China want their spies to use Dorje Shugden when the mere mention of his name incites most Tibetans to irrational anger? And as for pure Shugden practitioners, China is probably the last thing on their mind in their struggle to gain the upper hand in the on-going controversy. As Trinley Kelsang says, the photo of the Panchen Lama and Shugden combine two of the most controversial topics... regardless of whether it is real or not, it will incite a reaction wherever it is seen.