Author Topic: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?  (Read 55804 times)

Atishas cook

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #120 on: August 21, 2014, 01:07:13 AM »
"Wouldn't that make us no different than the followers of the Dalai Lama, degrading the Shugden lineage lamas to justify the ban."

no, of course it wouldn't.  the Shugden lineage Lamas have not broken their samaya with their own Lamas, broken almost all their vows and attempted to destroy their lineage and the Dharma itself by mixing it with politics!  the False Dalai Lama is completely incomparable with them.

it doesn't matter what your opinion is: Lhamo Dondrub is not the Dalai Lama, as is clearly proven by Reting Lama's confession that he picked the boy at random to save his own position - if in fact there ever was a correctly recognized lineage after the 3rd or 4th; the 5th was a murdering politician - hardly an enlightened being!

those who have faith in the False Dalai Lama have placed their faith in a wrong object, as is clearly proven by his evil behaviour.  to believe anything else is to ignore the facts.  this is not a matter of opinion, or debate, or "pure view".

i'm sorry but this is the truth.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #121 on: August 21, 2014, 02:24:00 AM »
Big Uncle, I hear what you are saying, but I put myself in their position, then consider the holy Dharma, and if any of my Lamas were doing as Lhamo Dondrub, I would:

1) Not at all be dismayed by people telling the truth about my Teacher
2) I would immediately recognize how harmful it is to my spiritual life to rely on such a person, immediately distance myself, and seek out a Lama who possesses the qualifications outlined in the Lamrim and Lama Chopa commentaries.

After everything he's done, that people cannot acknowledge the fact that according to the holy Dharma itself Lhamo Dondrub is not a valid lineage holder is stunning, and is frankly an indication that they do not understand the meaning of lineage or value the necessity of receiving a clean lineage transmission as the very source of attaining authentic realizations.

It is an indisputable fact that your Dalai Lama has disparaged and abandoned his lineage Gurus. A 'clean' or 'pure' lineage transmission means the Teacher absolutely loves their lineage Gurus and always pay deep respect to them. Through such a pure hearted bond the disciple is able to be a vessel for the blessings of enlightened lineage to flow through them to the audience, and so the audience can connect to lineage in their own mind. The purpose of telling this truth here is to strike some common sense so that people will consider its import and find a qualified teacher. You may not see what I'm saying, but there is a possibility that someone will and so take action to find another Teacher in order to gain realizations.

We value having a qualified Teacher if we genuinely value the attainment of authentic realizations. If we do not value the importance of relying on a qualified Lama, this reflects that we do not value the importance of attaining authentic realizations. So the question then becomes, for what reason would a person continue to rely upon an invalid Teacher that is trying to destroy the very lineage one is trying to realize?

Having considered these indisputable points, if you really are interested in attaining genuine realizations, I am asking you sincerely to consider and possibly share with us what your reason is for maintaining Lhamo Dondrub as your Teacher?

Blueupali

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #122 on: August 24, 2014, 07:47:31 AM »
Okay, everybody.  Please stop drinking the Dalai Lama cool-aide.
  You guys, if you are told by thousands of people, since childhood, the U.S. President is a Buddha, well maybe you can say so.  Because ANYONE,even an insane being, COULD be a Buddha.
  However, it is simply not possible for the majority of the Dalai Lama's followers to have examined him as a teacher nor he them as students--- at all.  He gives the Kalachakra to the masses.... and along with it COMPLETELY goes against the tantra by dictating everything everyone has to do.  Milarepa had incredible devotion for Marpa, but Milarepa had a chance to find out about Marpa and vice versa, and it was more one on one with a lot of retreats.  The Dalai Lama is lying to everybody and making them feel like they are special people who get a big empowerment.  It is a good wish to have such an empowerement from an enlightened being, but what chance do these "disciples" of his have to really find out that much about him first?  In many cases they just show up....
  THen he micromanages their lives, putting Dorje Shugden followers in a category of non-virtuous friend, or malevolent friend, because he has declared himself the guru of Buddhism (and these guys are tricked into thinking they have to do everything this dude says).  Okay, so maybe he gave a feel good talk.  Maybe Deepak Chopra did the same or the Catholic Pope, but are you saying you are ready to offer everything, even all of your logic circuits and reason to everything they say?
  Real tantric masters do not disparage people for practicing.  If he wants his own students to do a certain practice, okay, but saying oh you can't be friends with those guys over there, because I have decided they are going against me...malevolent...... blah blah.... oh go over there and get them to stop guys... very convenient... done in the crusades and inquisitions throughout time...
  Dalai has logical fallacies all the time, at least if you understand much about Buddhism.  Please, look up some basic syllogisms in a logic book.... look up the qualifications of a tantric master in a book written by someone other than the guy who is trying to get you to do what he says.  He has departed from Buddha, you are following a cult leader, not an enlightened being. 

psylotripitaka

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #123 on: August 24, 2014, 10:22:43 PM »
I find it peculiar that every time I've ever asked students of the DL a question such as this, they always elect to avoid the discussion.

Big Uncle

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #124 on: August 26, 2014, 12:14:48 AM »
I find it peculiar that every time I've ever asked students of the DL a question such as this, they always elect to avoid the discussion.

Psylotripitaka,
There's no student of the Dalai Lama here and I am certainly not avoiding and I am not his student. I have been busy with work in order to earn my keep and I am certainly not paid by the Chinese (I wish!). There are just some Shugden practitioners are thinking that perhaps, the Dalai Lama is just manifesting this to push Dorje Shugden out in the world. I am suggesting that we should be fighting the Shugden ban and not trying to bring down the Dalai Lama. Since you were talking about attainments, I don't see how criticising the Dalai Lama helps you to gain attainments?

There is a Bodhisattva vow that says you are not to insult someone who has committed any of the five heinous crimes or defiled his vows of individual liberation, or treat him or her with contempt. If you hold your Bodhisattva vows, then you have broken it. If you have not, then you should prepare to hold it as that will help you gain attainments. That is if the Dalai Lama is just an ordinary practitioner. You see, you and I don't have the wisdom to see this. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche certainly has and he has said in his writings not to criticize the Dalai Lama. 

Blueupali

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #125 on: August 26, 2014, 01:26:02 AM »
Big Uncle,
  I don't think people here are not saying that some of them aren't with the Dalai Lama.  Logically, for people from Tibet, that could easily be possible that they had commitments both with Shugden lamas and the Dalai Lama, or older western students too.  I think we need to understand what the Dalai Lama is doing is not the acts of an enlightened being, so that we can help bring down the ban.  We are dealing with a man who used to be a dictator in Tibet, and people are still afraid to speak out, like when the emperor isn't wearing clothes, everyone was afraid to admit it. 
  Whatever people's opinion's they are certainly entitled to them, but I think we have to take things in context.  Regarding the previous Trijang Rinpoche's advice on not criticizing the Dalai Lama, I will share an excerpt from a teaching called "Four Ways of the Wise," by Shamar Rinpoche.  Here Rinpoche advises us to rely on meaning rather than words.  I think it is very logical to under Trijang Rinpoche's words to advise people not to criticize the Dalai Lama since he wanted them all to be alive the next morning.  Also, I don't think it's criticism if we say we don't think the Dalai Lama is a Buddha.  We cherish our mother living beings and rely on them for lojong practice, so saying the Dalai Lama could well be a mother living being isn't a disparagement. It's okay, it's compassionate that we notice, so we can think things through, and make prayers for his swift enlightenment.

Here is the bit from Shamarpa's teaching:
http://shamarpa.org/four-ways-of-the-wise/
2. Depend on the meaning and not on the words

People like to follow fine words. Impressive language can be very convincing. Wording can be skillful to make meaning clear or it can help to make something more beautiful, as in a poem or a song, or wording can be used to impress your audience, to let them know you are educated and adept at prose style and turns of phrase. But the meaning is the most important: it should be the correct meaning.

What is correct meaning in spiritual teaching? First, to be correct, a teaching must give some benefit. Second, it must tell the truth. Once these two criteria are met, then wording is less important. But good wording can make correct teachings easier to read and more interesting, so it is useful.

Yet, if you use good wording but tell lies, not only does your good wording give no value, but it is actually harmful, because you may cause people to fall into harmful beliefs and errors.

Here’s an example. Legend says that once upon a time there was a Brahmin scholar with a very beautiful wife. At an advanced age, this Brahmin got sick and knew that he would soon die. He was a jealous man, and he became terrified that another man would marry his wife after his death. So, being a scholar who was also very determined, he did something quite extreme. He mustered all his strength to write a self-serving book to convince to convince his wife to jump into his funeral pyre. In this book, the Brahmin said that when his body is offered to the god Shiva it will be transformed from a burning body into a “liberated” body. He went on to write that since a Brahmin’s wife is not just a wife, but a goddess taking part in a holy union, that she should join her husband and become liberated as well. The style and language of this book were perfect, since the Brahmin was a master of rhetoric. Indeed, so the legend goes, the book was so convincing that the wife jumped in the fire. And thus was the hateful practice of sati begun in India. It was widespread until outlawed by the British and continues in some places even today.

Wording is a flower, it is an adornment. Meaning is the real body. Good wording without meaning is like precious jewels on a corpse. The power of meaning will come through even if words are not impressive, like a beautiful woman who is unadorned, whose natural beauty shines through. Skillful wording allied with good meaning is like a beautiful woman whose natural allure is enhanced by beautiful jewels.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #126 on: August 26, 2014, 01:56:10 AM »
Big Uncle,

My meaning really was that in general when such a dialogue is presented, people do not reply with reasonable discussion.

You began this subject heading, so I have taken the opportunity to share some logical perspectives. I have heartfelt love and compassion for Lhamo Dondrub, and so I've laid out the reasons I do not believe his aspect is that of a holy being or valid representative of the 3 Jewels. Surely this is common sense. Teaching words and doing rituals in and of themselves does not qualify us to be a representative of the lineage. Love and respect for the lineage Gurus is the most important criteria.

He has been given a very long time and many opportunities to have dialogue and address the abuse of human and religious rights but has chosen the path of corruption. For this reason, especially due to not only the amount of time that's gone by but especially the significant increase of persecution in the past few years, he has brought himself to the point where his reputation and the validity of his speech must now be brought into question in a very direct way.

Before, he had the opportunity to save face and still be able to benefit many people through Dharma by bringing harmony, but his actions have brought the natural consequence of opposing the Holy Beings. I do not criticize with bad intention, but out of compassion to protect the lineage and to also try and reason with people who are relying on someone that cannot transmit the blessings of lineage to them, as I explained regarding the Panchen Lama clarifying the how not to mistake an introduction to the conventional nature of mind as an introduction to the ultimate nature of mind. He did so to prevent people's path to liberation from being blocked, and so, I too have presented a reasonable argument with legitimate concern for people's path to liberation.

For the crimes he has committed against the lineage in particular, it is entirely logical and appropriate that he lose his status and position as a Teacher. I mean my gosh people, is this fucking rocket science? If he would have pulled this kinda shit during the time of Lord Buddha, I guarantee, I guarantee he would have been first given the opportunity to rectify it, and if his behavior continued, Buddha Shakyamuni, Mahasiddha Padmasambhava, Lord Atisha, Marpa Lotsawa, Jetsun Milarepa, Sakya Pandita, Je Tsongkhapa and so on and so forth would ALL have dismissed him from the monastery, taken his robes, and taken away his position as a public representative of the 3 Jewels.

Yet people or so wrapped up in the reputation of this guy that they can't even think clearly or have any common sense. Ah, the good 'ol Kali Yuga!

Atishas cook

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #127 on: August 26, 2014, 01:56:23 AM »
Big Uncle -

and is it not a Bodhisattva downfall to fail to engage in wrathful actions when appropriate?  on the other hand, there's no fault, so long as our motivation is compassion, in pointing out others' negativity - or even in disempowering a spiritual dictator who uses their power only to harm others.

we don't know each others' motivation.  so assuming that we are all trying to act out of compassion and not self-interest, the only question for us is: what action is most skilful to end the ban, alleviate Shugden practitioners' suffering, and remove the threat to this holy lineage as quickly as possible?  calling him a liar, or staying silent?

during Trijang Dorjechang's life, as Blue Upali says, it was not the time to speak out.  NOW is the time.

empowerment

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #128 on: August 30, 2014, 10:13:12 AM »
Looking forward to this...my first post here. 

I have been reading the posts in this thread entitled:Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?

My answer to this question is: No

My reason is because this dalai lama is destroying faith across all buddhists, setting buddhist in disagreement with buddhist - in other words creating division not harmony.  A heinous action is a heinous action is a heinous action.

I have loved and laughed at the ferocity of Maitibhadra - he/she may express themselves in strong language but it is a pleasure to read wisdom cutting through the schizophrenic idea that someone causing massive suffering can also be a holy being.

For years I have wondered what is the meaning of "Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama spreading Dharma together."

I am sorry to say but to me this is nonsense.

Anybody believing this should keep their belief private as it cannot be understood by ordinary people - it just confuses them.

Ringo Starr

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #129 on: August 30, 2014, 03:52:02 PM »
Come on, who are we to kid ourselves about knowing the ultimate motivation of the Dalai Lama and "entourage". If we just focus on the conventional, the worldly, we see that he is lying. This needs to be overcome immediately.

Blueupali

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #130 on: September 03, 2014, 05:51:38 AM »
Come on, who are we to kid ourselves about knowing the ultimate motivation of the Dalai Lama and "entourage". If we just focus on the conventional, the worldly, we see that he is lying. This needs to be overcome immediately.

Honestly we don't have to focus on the worldly at all--- it's just not logical that Chenresig would act like this guy.
  We can focus on the Buddha, meditate with the Buddha and then we will really understand that the DL is just a confused mother living being who literally needs us to do lots of Vajrasattva and Dorje Shugden prayers for him so he can purify and have more wisdom, because he is really lacking in wisdom.

yontenjamyang

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #131 on: January 05, 2015, 10:35:46 AM »
Unless we are Enlightened we should just regard all actions from others as Dharma practices. If someone hit you we should run or defend ourselves. If we think someone lie, even if it is the Dalai Lama, we can respectfully ask him not to lie; but the emphasis is "with respect". Since the Dalai Lama is so higher regarded, we should think of the feelings of his followers and those who respect him. Tell him not to lie but with respect.
Notice that that is what the protester are doing. Protest in peace and respect. But be factual. A lie is a lie.

prodorjeshugden

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2017, 03:36:35 PM »
I think that it is actually possible for the Dorje Shugden ban to be some form of religious play. I noticed that due to the Dorje Shugden ban many people around the world have noticed Dorje Shugden. Many people have united to form communities to protest against the great Dorje Shugden ban.
Before the Shugden ban, Dorje Shugden was hardly known, but as a result of the ban more people know about  Dorje Shugden.

I'd say that the ban has two sides, a good side and a bad side. The good thing(or partially good thing) about the ban is that Dorje Shugden is now famous due to many people protesting against the Ban. The bad thing about the ban is that it has caused suffering to many living in India, families were broken simply because some practiced Dorje Shugden and some did not. Dorje Shugden practitioners face other problems like not being able to vote and not allowed to go to public facilities.

Whatever it is i really hope that once the ban is over everything can go back to normal. _/\_

DharmaSpace

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2017, 05:19:37 PM »
@prodorjeshugden - many have also called this ban the Illusory play, a play of the divine.

Because of the ban, the citizens of the most economically powerful and potent nation in the world now being China all 1.3-1.4 billion of them can practice Dorje Shugden and get all the benefits of the practice.

Hence it is a negative action to ban Dorje Shugden, but doing so, there is a huge amount of benefit for the Chinese and the rest of the world, many more people will have Dorje Shudgen's mantra on their lips. And Dorje Shugden always leads towards Tsongkhapa's teachings no doubt about that.

michaela

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Re: Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2017, 10:28:22 PM »
This is  an old but interesting post. As a Dorje Shugden practitioner, at first, I could not comprehend about the reason for the ban. I have always believed and respected the Dalai Lama. Therefore, when I realized that His Holiness spoke against the Dorje Shugden practice, my heart was shattered. However, I do believe in what our lineage master, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche. In his writing Music Delighting Oceans of Protector, written long before the ban, the Trijang Rinpoche has mentioned that in the future, the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden would manifest conflict but in actuality, they are working together for the Dharma.

I think we should try as best as we can, not to lose faith in both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden.