Author Topic: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report  (Read 13914 times)

DharmaSpace

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Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« on: May 29, 2013, 06:47:47 PM »
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A US report said people of Tibet faced severe religious repression and societal discrimination throughout 2012 in China, the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) said here Tuesday.

The Chinese government's respect for and protection of religious freedom in Tibet deteriorated markedly with a substantial increase in official interference in religious practices, a CTA spokesperson said, quoting the US State Department's International Religious Freedom Report for 2012.

Of the 117 Tibetan self-immolation protests against the Chinese rule, 85 took place in 2012.

"Repression was severe throughout the year, but tightened further in the lead-up to and during politically sensitive and religious anniversaries and events," said the report which was released Monday.

"Official interference in the practice of Tibetan Buddhist religious traditions continued to generate profound grievances. An increasing number of Tibetans self-immolated during the year," it said.

The report said the US government urged the Chinese government to engage in constructive dialogue with the Dalai Lama and his representatives.

Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, has lived in India since fleeing his homeland in 1959. The Tibetan government-in-exile is based in this Himachal Pradesh hill town.

Whoever wrote this is definitely on Uncle Sam's payroll. The real persecution is happening with the Dorje Shugden practitioners. The many law abiding and beneficial Dorje Shugden lama s in Tibet have the religious freedom to practice what they like, whereas the Tibetans in india and other parts of the world are constantly shunned and harassed for their beliefs.

Ensapa

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2013, 05:48:36 AM »
I find this report absurd on so many levels. How can the US still claim that China is practicing religious suppression when there is so many proof that Tibetan Buddhism is allowed to be practiced freely? Obviously this 'report' is written to illicit symphaty from the international community about the Tibetan cause. Unfortunately, it is not based on the truth and people do not like to be lied to and when they find out that this is not the truth, they will not be happy about it and they will abandon the Tibetan cause with much unhappiness. Deception will never lead to anything good in the long run.

vajrastorm

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 11:29:47 AM »
"Official interferences in the practice of Tibetan Buddhist religious traditions continued to generate profound grievances" . If I had not read this sentence in the context of this post, I would readily be !

As it is, it is obvious that the CTA were behind the US report on Tibetans in China facing repression by the Chinese. There are missing pieces of information and evidence to support the view here that the self immolations by Tibetans sprang from the repression of religious freedom by the Chinese. The 85 cases out of the total of 117 cases of self -immolation, purportedly occurring in 2012, due to unhappiness over repression of freedom to practice Tibetan Buddhist religious traditions, begs two questions. The first is - How sure is CTA that the reason for these self-immolations is as they have stated. The second is - How is anyone going to be convinced that these self-immolations had not been instigated? There had been no effort by CTA to stop these mostly young people and many sangha members  from  this form of suicide. Buddhism abhors suicide and suicide is a great transgression, and suicide in the form of self-immolation, can lead to rebirth in the hell realms. So why didn't the CTA act to prevent these self-immolations from escalating? Also, the real cause for self -immolation has been cited as political- the cause of Tibet's freedom, not a religious cause.

We have seen increasing evidence that, contrary to the view of CTA, the Chinese authorities have been giving freedom to the Tibetans in Tibet to practice the Tibetan Buddhist religious traditions, including the practice of Dorje Shugden. Moreover,Shugden Lamas have been allowed to spread the Dharma.

   

Ensapa

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2013, 03:30:33 AM »
"Official interferences in the practice of Tibetan Buddhist religious traditions continued to generate profound grievances" . If I had not read this sentence in the context of this post, I would readily be !

As it is, it is obvious that the CTA were behind the US report on Tibetans in China facing repression by the Chinese. There are missing pieces of information and evidence to support the view here that the self immolations by Tibetans sprang from the repression of religious freedom by the Chinese. The 85 cases out of the total of 117 cases of self -immolation, purportedly occurring in 2012, due to unhappiness over repression of freedom to practice Tibetan Buddhist religious traditions, begs two questions. The first is - How sure is CTA that the reason for these self-immolations is as they have stated. The second is - How is anyone going to be convinced that these self-immolations had not been instigated? There had been no effort by CTA to stop these mostly young people and many sangha members  from  this form of suicide. Buddhism abhors suicide and suicide is a great transgression, and suicide in the form of self-immolation, can lead to rebirth in the hell realms. So why didn't the CTA act to prevent these self-immolations from escalating? Also, the real cause for self -immolation has been cited as political- the cause of Tibet's freedom, not a religious cause.

We have seen increasing evidence that, contrary to the view of CTA, the Chinese authorities have been giving freedom to the Tibetans in Tibet to practice the Tibetan Buddhist religious traditions, including the practice of Dorje Shugden. Moreover,Shugden Lamas have been allowed to spread the Dharma.

 

Anyone who reads any of the self immolation reports would know that the self immolators did so to try to corner China into freeing Tibet and giving back Tibet to the Dalai Lama, so this report is clearly another fake one written by the CTA or their supporters in the US to try and bend things their way by bending the truth. Like I have said in many posts before, using lies to achieve what they want will only result in failure and disaster because nobody likes to be lied to and lies will always be discovered at the end of the day. Now that China is sending their lamas abroad to teach, it wont be too long before everyone else is aware of all the lies that CTA feeds the world in order to get symphaty.

Blueupali

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 01:34:36 AM »
Hello all previous commentators,
  I am not really clear on what notion of religious freedom everyone is using about religious freedom in China?  It is not that people cannot join one of 5 religons, including Buddhism, but that the state will still dictate a lot more about how much practice a person can do, whether a person can travel to a teaching, rather than necessarily what prayers they say, assuming, of course, that the person is fortunate enough to be in one of the 5 religions the state allows. 
  So the UN's idea of freedom of religion is more like something completely unfathomed in the the history of Tibet, regardless of who was ruling it.  It is more similar to what most democracies in the West have; please understand I am not looking down on the Tibetans or the Chinese here; changing a society to have freedom of thought and expression takes time.  While I understand that the U.S. has interests, on the other hand, freedom of religion does have to do with other freedoms; if the state is too controlling about a person's activities , then obviously it might be difficult to find enough hours in the day to complete preliminary practices or travel to get the necessary empowerments.  China is probably getting better, but we shouldn't think that just because they allow our prayers that they are okay; if they are keeping people from practicing their religion freely, including having shrines to gurus who are not mine, then China is still too oppressive.  Uncle Sam could help out over here, by encouraging global human rights for all of China or reducing trade by 75 percent or something. 
  That said, the Dalai Lama's ban on Shugden is approximately the same level of religious oppression that made Pilgrims head for America in the first place; the US government could probably help that by telling him to lift the ban or cut off all aide.
 

Blueupali

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2013, 02:04:44 AM »
Hello, all, I thought I would post my source, for the last post; if you read this, you will note that the U.S. State Department doesn't seem to notice that there are two Karmapa recognitions, that Kalachakra is a high yoga initiation, in addition to being a 'teaching conference.'  Then they don't seem to notice that the Dalai Lama IS compared to Hitler toward the Jews by people in the west regarding the Shugden issue.  So in other words, they are only telling half of the story. (But you guys we do need complete human rights over there, okay, despite whoever may be in charge--- I am scared of a future with no Buddhism or being reborn in China/Tibet)
  I wrote their page on corrections, and let them know some of the missing information.  Please feel free to do the same:).
 Here is the link:
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/religiousfreedom/index.htm?dlid=208224&year=2012#wrapper

Ensapa

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2013, 03:03:56 AM »
Hello all previous commentators,
  I am not really clear on what notion of religious freedom everyone is using about religious freedom in China?  It is not that people cannot join one of 5 religons, including Buddhism, but that the state will still dictate a lot more about how much practice a person can do, whether a person can travel to a teaching, rather than necessarily what prayers they say, assuming, of course, that the person is fortunate enough to be in one of the 5 religions the state allows. 
  So the UN's idea of freedom of religion is more like something completely unfathomed in the the history of Tibet, regardless of who was ruling it.  It is more similar to what most democracies in the West have; please understand I am not looking down on the Tibetans or the Chinese here; changing a society to have freedom of thought and expression takes time.  While I understand that the U.S. has interests, on the other hand, freedom of religion does have to do with other freedoms; if the state is too controlling about a person's activities , then obviously it might be difficult to find enough hours in the day to complete preliminary practices or travel to get the necessary empowerments.  China is probably getting better, but we shouldn't think that just because they allow our prayers that they are okay; if they are keeping people from practicing their religion freely, including having shrines to gurus who are not mine, then China is still too oppressive.  Uncle Sam could help out over here, by encouraging global human rights for all of China or reducing trade by 75 percent or something. 
  That said, the Dalai Lama's ban on Shugden is approximately the same level of religious oppression that made Pilgrims head for America in the first place; the US government could probably help that by telling him to lift the ban or cut off all aide.
 
[/quote

Unfortunately, lifting of the Dorje Shugden ban does not benefit the US economically in any way so they have no reason to make CTA lift the ban, but they do have lots to gain if they accuse China of religious oppression because it would be another issue that can be used as ammunition against China. The only so called religious oppression that China has imposed against the Tibetans is just that they are not allowed to worship the Dalai Lama. Considering history and facts, that is hardly considered as a religious oppression at all as the Dalai Lama is the ex-ruler of Tibet and it is only natural for the new ruling power to try and eliminate traces of the old ruling power. Sadly this has been twisted by the CTA to make it look like religious oppression. It's sad to see how a "buddhist" country would twist the truth to suit their own means.

Blueupali

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2013, 08:57:34 PM »
Ensapa,
  Yes, I see what you are saying; the U.S. government, being a government, motivated by politics and of course money is always a big deal; but yes, the Dalai Lama is one problem, and the fact that the U.S. always favors China in trade is another; obviously the U.S. government isn't worried about the Dalai Lama's being just as bad as the English monarchy had been to the American Pilgrims, what they want is easy trade with China and to make communism look even worse that it looks all by itself. 
  The issue that always happens is that when there is some sort of monarch or dictator the U.S. government has historically supported the monarch or dictator (for example in South America) over anything to do with communism, even if the dictator is much worse than a communist regime; I suppose, according to American government thought it must be easier to move from a dictator to democracy than from communism to democracy?  At any rate, the unfortunate thing is that they don't act like they are too interested in defending the Shugden people from anything they have done so far, which is really an unfortunate karma. 
 
 

Ensapa

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2013, 04:38:38 AM »
Ensapa,
  Yes, I see what you are saying; the U.S. government, being a government, motivated by politics and of course money is always a big deal; but yes, the Dalai Lama is one problem, and the fact that the U.S. always favors China in trade is another; obviously the U.S. government isn't worried about the Dalai Lama's being just as bad as the English monarchy had been to the American Pilgrims, what they want is easy trade with China and to make communism look even worse that it looks all by itself. 
  The issue that always happens is that when there is some sort of monarch or dictator the U.S. government has historically supported the monarch or dictator (for example in South America) over anything to do with communism, even if the dictator is much worse than a communist regime; I suppose, according to American government thought it must be easier to move from a dictator to democracy than from communism to democracy?  At any rate, the unfortunate thing is that they don't act like they are too interested in defending the Shugden people from anything they have done so far, which is really an unfortunate karma. 

America has never done anything for the 'greater good', but only for their own benefit. If they supported the Dorje Shugden practitioners against the ban, they have nothing to gain from that although that is the 'right' thing for them to do and therefore there is no reason for them to do it. This is the reason why everyone in the US has been turning a blind eye on the Dorje Shugden issue and they have also influenced their media to do the exact same thing. There is nothing new or surprising about this. It is all whether or not you want to believe in their propaganda or not. America will only act for their own interests and not truly for justice, but they will make it look like they are but if you examine deeply you'll see.

Blueupali

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 08:13:37 PM »
Hi Ensapa,
  I generally avoid the word 'always' when describing phenomena; most countries, despite having perhaps a generally good ideology, act in what they perceive to be their 'best interests.'  Out of ignorance and conufusion, beings and countries make mistakes.  America is having some issues with noticing the Dorje Shugden controversy, but there are other issues in other places that people are having issues noticing; a lot of people on this site seem to think it would be okay to return to Tibet/China without any insurance of democracy or basic human rights from the Chinese.  Of course, everyone can make their own choice, but if you think that Western nations such as America are motivated by politics and their own interests, would you not say this is also true of China?  I am sorry, but just because the Tibetan politicans now want to go back under communism doesn't make it a good idea.  In fact, it is a really terrible idea.
  Concerning governments, it is really good to make people aware of what is going on.  Personally I completely support the WSS's protests and books, because without them, America and other Western Nations, not being primarily Buddhists, have absolutely no idea what is going on.  Information is key; to have information, we have to have freedom of speech; I'm afraid freedom of speech is not allowed in China so I really don't think that is a helpful place to be while trying to practice the Buddhadharma.  Again, I am sure that the Chinese people are nice people, but government is making a huge mess of human rights; America is paying to much attention to cheap Chinese labor and goods rather than human rights in continuing trade with them.  So, yes, politics is, as always, an international mess; this is why it is important to stay where freedom and endowments are possible; I totally think the Dalai Lama should lift the ban, but you know, I don't know how the Tibetan community would remain as divided as to not notice that he is planning to take them into a communist oppressive state after so many of them had left on foot to escape that.

Ensapa

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2013, 05:37:33 AM »
Hi Ensapa,
  I generally avoid the word 'always' when describing phenomena; most countries, despite having perhaps a generally good ideology, act in what they perceive to be their 'best interests.'  Out of ignorance and conufusion, beings and countries make mistakes.  America is having some issues with noticing the Dorje Shugden controversy, but there are other issues in other places that people are having issues noticing; a lot of people on this site seem to think it would be okay to return to Tibet/China without any insurance of democracy or basic human rights from the Chinese.  Of course, everyone can make their own choice, but if you think that Western nations such as America are motivated by politics and their own interests, would you not say this is also true of China?  I am sorry, but just because the Tibetan politicans now want to go back under communism doesn't make it a good idea.  In fact, it is a really terrible idea.
  Concerning governments, it is really good to make people aware of what is going on.  Personally I completely support the WSS's protests and books, because without them, America and other Western Nations, not being primarily Buddhists, have absolutely no idea what is going on.  Information is key; to have information, we have to have freedom of speech; I'm afraid freedom of speech is not allowed in China so I really don't think that is a helpful place to be while trying to practice the Buddhadharma.  Again, I am sure that the Chinese people are nice people, but government is making a huge mess of human rights; America is paying to much attention to cheap Chinese labor and goods rather than human rights in continuing trade with them.  So, yes, politics is, as always, an international mess; this is why it is important to stay where freedom and endowments are possible; I totally think the Dalai Lama should lift the ban, but you know, I don't know how the Tibetan community would remain as divided as to not notice that he is planning to take them into a communist oppressive state after so many of them had left on foot to escape that.


I dont think lack of freedom of speech is 'helpful' in Dharma practice either. In fact, it makes practicing Dharma harder because you do not restraint your speech and it might end up that you'll say something that is against the percept regarding speech and saying things that are not necessary or gossip. In fact lack of free speech would mean that the practitioner would have to be more skilful and more careful in choosing what he or she will say.

If you think that religious suppression is bad in China, read this article and think again:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/an-exclusive-interview-with-kensur-rinpoche-lobsang-chojin-of-sampheling-monastery/

It's not always easy to differentiate between propaganda and the truth sometimes.

Blueupali

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2013, 06:42:42 PM »
Quote from Ensapa:
If you think that religious suppression is bad in China, read this article and think again:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/an-exclusive-interview-with-kensur-rinpoche-lobsang-chojin-of-sampheling-monastery/

It's not always easy to differentiate between propaganda and the truth sometimes.
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Dear Ensapa,
Well I read the article, which actually I had read before; I didn't see how it made your point?
  Kensur Rinpoche just said that the Dalai Lama's arguments against Shugden were void of logic.  That's true, so what is the problem?
  Right speech is not simply refraining from mention that someone is doing something wrong, with the bodhisattva vow the lama or practioner has to decide if they are being helpful in pointing out something someone else is doing wrong.  Whether we think they are really believing that or a Buddha manifesting wrong activity is a completely different issue!  We can still talk, as long as the motive is pure and we keep in mind bodhichitta, how is it wrong?
  No offense at all intended toward you, but if you think the propaganda is hard to differentiate from the truth, then why are you falling for all that China says?  They, among all nations, have no propaganda?
That would also be void of logic, I'm afraid.
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Ensapa

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2013, 04:28:03 AM »
Quote from Ensapa:
If you think that religious suppression is bad in China, read this article and think again:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/an-exclusive-interview-with-kensur-rinpoche-lobsang-chojin-of-sampheling-monastery/

It's not always easy to differentiate between propaganda and the truth sometimes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Ensapa,
Well I read the article, which actually I had read before; I didn't see how it made your point?
  Kensur Rinpoche just said that the Dalai Lama's arguments against Shugden were void of logic.  That's true, so what is the problem?
  Right speech is not simply refraining from mention that someone is doing something wrong, with the bodhisattva vow the lama or practioner has to decide if they are being helpful in pointing out something someone else is doing wrong.  Whether we think they are really believing that or a Buddha manifesting wrong activity is a completely different issue!  We can still talk, as long as the motive is pure and we keep in mind bodhichitta, how is it wrong?
  No offense at all intended toward you, but if you think the propaganda is hard to differentiate from the truth, then why are you falling for all that China says?  They, among all nations, have no propaganda?
That would also be void of logic, I'm afraid.
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My point is that if religious oppression was really that bad in China, why is it that this monastery was allowed to thrive? What we read on media may not be true and we should always take it with a big helping of salt, lest it isnt true, unless we really have went there and verified the information ourselves. I'm not falling for what China says, i am saying that there is proof that contradicts what americans think of China especially on the religious oppression issue. I never said China has no propaganda, but in many posts you are clearly biased against China and it's never a good thing to be biased.

Blueupali

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 06:11:35 AM »
Well, politics is very complicated, so I am just saying, that yes, there are some monestaries thriving in Tibet/China (Mipham Rinpoche, Karmapa's Nyingma father) has a retreat center in Tibet as well; so yes I was already aware that sometimes some monestaries are thriving; however, since the government has such control, it's quite possible that things could change in an unfortunate way at any moment, without anyone having a voice.  Concerning what I read, of course the press has the decision over what it may or may not report; I had an education where my teachers happened to be very open minded liberals who always encouraged us to verify sources; that said, sometimes it is hard to find a good source that reports on these issues.
  I was thinking, rather than disliking China, I just dislike oppression.  During the cold war with the Soviet Union, I always felt great affinity with the Russian people, and was praying for their release from oppressive governments.  The US certainly has its problems, the main one being that people aren't always paying attention to the rest of the world or thinking through on what we do to the environment; I am not saying any system is perfect until enlightenment.  Interestingly, I noticed in your posts that you seemed very pro-China.  I was trying to work that out, actually.  But don't worry, I am praying hard for you and also the people of Tibet and China so I am sure if we meet in our next lives, we will get along well.
 

Ensapa

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Re: Tibetans faced religious repression: US report
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 07:29:33 AM »
Well, politics is very complicated, so I am just saying, that yes, there are some monestaries thriving in Tibet/China (Mipham Rinpoche, Karmapa's Nyingma father) has a retreat center in Tibet as well; so yes I was already aware that sometimes some monestaries are thriving; however, since the government has such control, it's quite possible that things could change in an unfortunate way at any moment, without anyone having a voice.  Concerning what I read, of course the press has the decision over what it may or may not report; I had an education where my teachers happened to be very open minded liberals who always encouraged us to verify sources; that said, sometimes it is hard to find a good source that reports on these issues.
  I was thinking, rather than disliking China, I just dislike oppression.  During the cold war with the Soviet Union, I always felt great affinity with the Russian people, and was praying for their release from oppressive governments.  The US certainly has its problems, the main one being that people aren't always paying attention to the rest of the world or thinking through on what we do to the environment; I am not saying any system is perfect until enlightenment.  Interestingly, I noticed in your posts that you seemed very pro-China.  I was trying to work that out, actually.  But don't worry, I am praying hard for you and also the people of Tibet and China so I am sure if we meet in our next lives, we will get along well.
 

China is oppressive, that is a fact, but it is not as oppressive as what some people believe them to be. They're just paranoid most of the time. They stifle free speech because it's impossible to control the mouths of so many people that are living in China and if anything happens it would be very hard for anyone to control, so preventative measures are required to maintain the peace. When it comes to religion however, Buddhism is one of the few state religions that are approved by the government and they would not oppress Buddhism as much as some would want us to believe.