Author Topic: Thupten Jinpa's comments  (Read 30645 times)

vajrastorm

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 07:48:18 AM »
Now that Mar Mee has spoken again to refute Thupten Jinpa's claim of "factual errors" in MM's earlier post, I am now really puzzled as to why Thupten Jinpa should deny the truth that his teacher, the great master Zemey Rinpoche, was a devoted and renowned Shugden practitioner. Why would he so blatantly say the following:

" I felt it unfortunate that he(Zemey Rinpoche) HAPPENED to pen the controversial Yellow Book". (Doesn't he, Thupten Jinpa, see this as an act of unexcelled Guru Devotion by Zemey Rinpoche towards Trijang Rinpoche, who was also the Dalai Lama's Guru?)? "The story of the situation  is that Zemey Rinpoche WAS NEVER AN ARDENT PRACTITIONER OF worldly protectors in general, let alone SHUGDEN" !
To support this distorted observation, Thupten Jinpa went on to say that, as he had lived with Zemey Rinpoche for eleven years, he should know!

When MM has written to clearly and logically show how and why Zemey Rinpoche was a great and ardent practitioner of Shugden, Thupten Jinpa's complete distortion and twisting of this fact is just too difficult to swallow.

I guess it's because my ordinary mind cannot perceive the ultimate truth ; and must await the unfolding of the big picture .

Ensapa

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2013, 03:21:16 PM »
Now that Mar Mee has spoken again to refute Thupten Jinpa's claim of "factual errors" in MM's earlier post, I am now really puzzled as to why Thupten Jinpa should deny the truth that his teacher, the great master Zemey Rinpoche, was a devoted and renowned Shugden practitioner. Why would he so blatantly say the following:

" I felt it unfortunate that he(Zemey Rinpoche) HAPPENED to pen the controversial Yellow Book". (Doesn't he, Thupten Jinpa, see this as an act of unexcelled Guru Devotion by Zemey Rinpoche towards Trijang Rinpoche, who was also the Dalai Lama's Guru?)? "The story of the situation  is that Zemey Rinpoche WAS NEVER AN ARDENT PRACTITIONER OF worldly protectors in general, let alone SHUGDEN" !
To support this distorted observation, Thupten Jinpa went on to say that, as he had lived with Zemey Rinpoche for eleven years, he should know!

When MM has written to clearly and logically show how and why Zemey Rinpoche was a great and ardent practitioner of Shugden, Thupten Jinpa's complete distortion and twisting of this fact is just too difficult to swallow.

I guess it's because my ordinary mind cannot perceive the ultimate truth ; and must await the unfolding of the big picture .

As a well respected Buddhist scholar, distorting facts is an action that is very unbecoming of him. What if his other works are nothing but distorted facts and are no longer credible? In the secular world, scholars that are caught distorting facts in any way, shape or form or for whatever the reason are instantly discredited and their works are automatically invalidated by the community. Perhaps, due to the lack of knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism, these unscrupulous scholars are allowed to get away with distorting facts and passing them as the truth...it is sad indeed to see this happening.

vajratruth

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2013, 03:54:05 PM »
Looks like Thupten Jinpa's denial of the truth of his Guru's and perhaps his own previously strong devotion to Dorje Shugden has opened up a can of worms for him. In reading Mar Nee's very clear response to his own comments, I did some asking around and was told that in fact Thupten Jinpa himself has even received DS Sogtae (life entrustment initiation) before and this was verified by monks who were there personally.

If this is correct, then it is utterly disgraceful and a shameful slap to even the most basic principles of loyalty  for Thupten Jinpa to deny his guru, his Protector and indeed the roots of his success. Frankly I do not envy his position for all the negative karma that one will have to bear for so severely breaking his samaya, and by his own account, making efforts to influence other monks of Zemey Ladrang to break theirs with their Guru and Protector.

As Mar Nee pointed out, Thupten Jinpa does stand alone on the Dorje Shugden issue, amongst his Zemey Ladrang peers and I wonder how much of his stance is swayed by the fact that he works for the Dalai Lama. Again, very much in character of those in the anti-Shugden camp, Thupten Jinpa failed to provide any sound insight as to why he views the Protector practice in negative light. Anyway, it would appear that the truth is out and Thupten Jinpa would do well to come clean.

Just looking at the circumstances surrounding Thupten Jinpa's situation, I cannot help but notice how defensive Jinpa was in his comment and how many more good people have been forced by the Dharamsala establishment to betray a Protector who continues to watch over them.

Q

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2013, 05:46:32 PM »
I still find it really strange that Thubten Jinpa would actually make an outright bluff for something as serious as this. I hope he realizes that many people in the DS scenes are actually reading this forum and website... and for all you know perhaps another student of Zemey Rinpoche would have read his comment, which I am very sure they will disagree with.

Strange isn't it? I'm sure Thubten Jinpa is pretty intelligent to not have thought about this... unless... he is still in close connections with them that he feels very safe none of them will spill the beans about him? Just a thought.

Ensapa

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2013, 01:48:17 AM »
with this happening, one can easily see how the ban has cornered many people into betraying their own Dharma protector just to be politically correct, and how flippant people can be. Do bear in mind that although Samdhong Rinpoche had to implement the ban, he has never once made unnecessary comments that Dorje Shugden is unenlightened or that his Guru did not practice Dorje Shugden. That is an example that anyone in that situation can emulate! And now, even when Samdhong Rinpoche has confessed that Trijang Rinpoche says he is an emanation of Dorje Shugden, the Dalai Lama still keeps him in his office.

In short, Thutben Jinpa's 'clarification letter' shows how flippant and disloyal he is and to have to resort to such means..

Ensapa

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2013, 01:52:02 AM »
I still find it really strange that Thubten Jinpa would actually make an outright bluff for something as serious as this. I hope he realizes that many people in the DS scenes are actually reading this forum and website... and for all you know perhaps another student of Zemey Rinpoche would have read his comment, which I am very sure they will disagree with.

Strange isn't it? I'm sure Thubten Jinpa is pretty intelligent to not have thought about this... unless... he is still in close connections with them that he feels very safe none of them will spill the beans about him? Just a thought.

Like I have said before in a previous post, Thutben Jinpa is taking advantage of the fact that Tibetan Buddhism is relatively unknown. Many people in the world do not have direct access to the members of Zemey Ladrang to verify his claims and thus he thinks he can pull wool over our eyes, but what he did not count on was that there are people here in this forum that does have direct access to the monks of Zemey Ladrang and their account of events differ from Thutben Jinpa's. It is also due to this ignorance that the Dorje Shugden ban was based on and when there's more people who knows the truth, the ban will melt.

Ensapa

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2013, 02:06:12 AM »
Looks like Thupten Jinpa's denial of the truth of his Guru's and perhaps his own previously strong devotion to Dorje Shugden has opened up a can of worms for him. In reading Mar Nee's very clear response to his own comments, I did some asking around and was told that in fact Thupten Jinpa himself has even received DS Sogtae (life entrustment initiation) before and this was verified by monks who were there personally.

If this is correct, then it is utterly disgraceful and a shameful slap to even the most basic principles of loyalty  for Thupten Jinpa to deny his guru, his Protector and indeed the roots of his success. Frankly I do not envy his position for all the negative karma that one will have to bear for so severely breaking his samaya, and by his own account, making efforts to influence other monks of Zemey Ladrang to break theirs with their Guru and Protector.

As Mar Nee pointed out, Thupten Jinpa does stand alone on the Dorje Shugden issue, amongst his Zemey Ladrang peers and I wonder how much of his stance is swayed by the fact that he works for the Dalai Lama. Again, very much in character of those in the anti-Shugden camp, Thupten Jinpa failed to provide any sound insight as to why he views the Protector practice in negative light. Anyway, it would appear that the truth is out and Thupten Jinpa would do well to come clean.

Just looking at the circumstances surrounding Thupten Jinpa's situation, I cannot help but notice how defensive Jinpa was in his comment and how many more good people have been forced by the Dharamsala establishment to betray a Protector who continues to watch over them.

Oh my word. He received sogtae but now betrayed his Dharma protector? this is disturbing on so many levels because how can you turn against a Dharma protector who protects you like his own child? Thutben Jinpa could have always kept quiet to save himself rather than making comments like these to enhance his own reputation and to save his own skin. Even the current Ling Rinpoche has never made stupid statements like Dorje Shugden is a worldly protector. HE KEPT QUIET!! There is so many examples of how Lamas in his situation act, so why cant he freaking follow their example rather than make statements like these?

yontenjamyang

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2013, 03:09:54 PM »
Quote
While I may empathise that you would like to distance yourself from the Dorje Shugden issue because of politically correct reasons, I have to stand by what I know of the facts at hand – namely that H.E. Zemey Rinpoche was a tremendously renowned Shugden lama and that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being, both of which I have substantiated as above. I am sure that you, as many Dorje Shugden practitioners and I do, wish for this illogical ban on Dorje Shugden to be lifted as soon as possible so that we may be true to ourselves, our gurus and our most sacred Dharma Protector.

It is very clear that Mar Nee has refuted the Geshe Thupten Jinpa's claims logically and skillfully backed by logic and facts. Even if he doubt the facts brought up by Mar Nee; the part about what the monks said (which I personally would not doubt); the logic of Mar Nee's argument is beyond reproach.

The fact that the entire Zemey Labrang is now part of Shar Ganden is very clear prove that Zemey Rinpoche himself was a Shudgen Lama and also proved that the protector is Super Mundane.

Cheers to Mar Nee!

Over to you, Geshe la.....!

samayakeeper

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2013, 04:59:04 PM »
This, again, is blatantly untrue. Yes, as it is common knowledge, His Holiness was deeply displeased by the appearance of the now infamous Yellow Book, and spoke strongly about his disappointment. However, because of his genuine compassion, His Holiness later forgave Rinpoche and kindly granted numerous private audiences during his visits to Ganden and Drepung monasteries in southern India. I was myself present at some of these audiences.



Since the above is true as written by Geshe Thupten Jinpa, why did HHDL because of his genuine compassion  only forgive Zemey Rinpoche and not the rest of the great lamas? I wonder why being selective? I agree with others who wrote here and asked the same question.

Ensapa

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2013, 12:45:04 AM »
This, again, is blatantly untrue. Yes, as it is common knowledge, His Holiness was deeply displeased by the appearance of the now infamous Yellow Book, and spoke strongly about his disappointment. However, because of his genuine compassion, His Holiness later forgave Rinpoche and kindly granted numerous private audiences during his visits to Ganden and Drepung monasteries in southern India. I was myself present at some of these audiences.



Since the above is true as written by Geshe Thupten Jinpa, why did HHDL because of his genuine compassion  only forgive Zemey Rinpoche and not the rest of the great lamas? I wonder why being selective? I agree with others who wrote here and asked the same question.

Obviously the reason why HHDL did not forgive other lamas such as Kundeling Rinpoche and Gangchen Rinpoche, and even the current Trijang Rinpoche for doing Dorje Shugden (because well, although HHDL had said he allowed Trijang Rinpoche to practice, Trijang Rinpoche still faces the punishment of the CTA, so what forgiveness?) and he would pardon Zemey Rinpoche? what kind of logic is that and what reason? Is the Dalai Lama selective? It seems that Thutben Jinpa does not mind to make even the Dalai Lama look bad and make him look like a selective person just to save his political career and to save his reputation.

samayakeeper

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2013, 06:41:56 AM »
This, again, is blatantly untrue. Yes, as it is common knowledge, His Holiness was deeply displeased by the appearance of the now infamous Yellow Book, and spoke strongly about his disappointment. However, because of his genuine compassion, His Holiness later forgave Rinpoche and kindly granted numerous private audiences during his visits to Ganden and Drepung monasteries in southern India. I was myself present at some of these audiences.



Since the above is true as written by Geshe Thupten Jinpa, why did HHDL because of his genuine compassion  only forgive Zemey Rinpoche and not the rest of the great lamas? I wonder why being selective? I agree with others who wrote here and asked the same question.

Obviously the reason why HHDL did not forgive other lamas such as Kundeling Rinpoche and Gangchen Rinpoche, and even the current Trijang Rinpoche for doing Dorje Shugden (because well, although HHDL had said he allowed Trijang Rinpoche to practice, Trijang Rinpoche still faces the punishment of the CTA, so what forgiveness?) and he would pardon Zemey Rinpoche? what kind of logic is that and what reason? Is the Dalai Lama selective? It seems that Thutben Jinpa does not mind to make even the Dalai Lama look bad and make him look like a selective person just to save his political career and to save his reputation.


Yes, Ensapa, it does seem that way that the comments made here have made HHDL look to being selective. I mean, Thubten Jinpa had time to write what he wrote and he would have checked and double checked the contents before having them posted to Mar Nee. If it had come from me, a nobody, it would still be alright to pen it that way. But from Thubten Jinpa, a learned scholar of the monastic institution and the main translator to HHDL?
I wonder if HHDL had granted audiences to other Shugden lamas in private and had privately pardoned them? I also wonder if Thubten Jinpa was present in such audiences, if any?

Big Uncle

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2013, 05:06:45 PM »
This was what I wrote in the comment section to Thubten Jinpa's comments:-

Thubten Jinpa wrote quite a long reply refuting a few crucial points stated in the article that referred to a recent incident of him prostrating and making offerings to his Guru’s throne. I was taken aback and was confused by his reply so I consulted a monk friend of mine. He just laughed when I asked him and this led me to ask his opinion on this matter. What he told me blew my mind away because I realized that what Thubten Jinpa said was not true at all!

Contrary to what Thubten Jinpa wrote, he does practice Dorje Shugden. He may have gone underground with his practice but in the monastery, many senior monks know of Thubten Jinpa and that he sponsors Dorje Shugden pujas at Gaden Shartse Tenkhang as thanksgiving for a safe journey after every trip that he goes to translate for His Holiness the Dalai Lama. On top of that, Zemey Ladrang is in Shar Gaden and that means all the monks, students and patrons of the ladrang are practicing Dorje Shugden.

Then, my monk friend paused and he told me that he recalls vividly that an old friend had told him of how Thubten Jinpa first entered the monastery. Apparently, Zemey Rinpoche first encountered Thubten Jinpa in Bylakuppe. It was during this time that Zemey Rinpoche consulted a Dorje Shugden oracle about the boy and Dorje Shugden in trance told Zemey Rinpoche to take care of this boy because he will one day become very famous. In fact, there were many people who had witnessed this.

So, this got me to the point of Zemey Rinpoche and I asked if this High Lama had practiced Dorje Shugden or not. According to Thubten Jinpa, Zemey Rinpoche did not practice Dorje Shugden because he is a worldly protector. When I told him that, he just snorted. He said everybody in the monastery knew Zemey Rinpoche practices Dorje Shugden because the monks at Zemey ladrang would prepare tormas and rituals for a Dorje Shugden puja every month. It is obvious that if everyone in the ladrang is practicing Dorje Shugden, Zemey Rinpoche must have taught them to practice.

In fact, he said he knew of a few older monks and Geshes in Gaden Shartse who would fold their hands with tears in their eyes and talk about witnessing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche performing Dorje Shugden pujas together in the old days. He also said that he knew the attendant of the late Choyang Duldzin Kuten and that in the old days; he was told that it is quite normal for Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche to consult Dorje Shugden via the oracle because he trusted Dorje Shugden’s counsel very much especially on important matters. On many occasions, when the oracle took trance of Shugden, Zemey Rinpoche would pose questions and follow through the answers. On top of that, Zemey Rinpoche’s monastery called Yangting Dechen Ling Monastery in Kham, Tibet, continues to practice Dorje Shugden to this day.

Then I asked the monk what he thought of Thubten Jinpa’s statement of Dorje Shugden as a worldly deity. The monk shook his head and said sadly that he doesn’t know why such a brilliant Geshe and student of Zemey Rinpoche would say such things. Zemey Rinpoche is a great student of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and everybody in the monastery knows that Trijang Rinpoche is one of the highest lamas of the land and the tutor of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. In Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche’s Sumbum or collected works, especially on the volume of Dorje Shugden, Trijang Rinpoche clearly states that Dorje Shugden is a super-mundane protector or a protector that is enlightened. All of us know that Zemey Rinpoche was a fierce and loyal student of Trijang Rinpoche. So, he must have propagated the same belief in Dorje Shugden’s nature. In fact, if you ask any Geshe in the monastery to debate on the nature of Dorje Shugden, Thubten Jinpa’s views would easily be refuted.

After telling me all that, the monk pondered and he said that he felt that the point of the Thubten Jinpa’s article on the website was actually about Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche being a Dorje Shugden practitioner and so is Thubten Jinpa. With that in mind, much of what Thubten Jinpa wrote in his reply about the Dalai Lama forgiving Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche and seeing him again seemed irrelevant to the original intent of the article. The monk thought that perhaps, it was just a distraction or a smokescreen to cover the fact that he too may have practiced Dorje Shugden.

Having come to this point, I asked the monk what he thought was the reason behind Thunten Jinpa’s anti-Shugden views. He shrugged his shoulders and just said that Thubten Jinpa is well-known to be a hard-line supporter of the Dorje Shugden ban. He wouldn’t say more after that.

Ensapa

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2013, 04:27:46 AM »
Yes, Ensapa, it does seem that way that the comments made here have made HHDL look to being selective. I mean, Thubten Jinpa had time to write what he wrote and he would have checked and double checked the contents before having them posted to Mar Nee. If it had come from me, a nobody, it would still be alright to pen it that way. But from Thubten Jinpa, a learned scholar of the monastic institution and the main translator to HHDL?
I wonder if HHDL had granted audiences to other Shugden lamas in private and had privately pardoned them? I also wonder if Thubten Jinpa was present in such audiences, if any?

It is quite surprising how Thutben Jinpa as a celebrated scholar would not hesitate to mislead people just so that he would look good and on top of that, he would not even think twice about making the Dalai Lama look selective just to save his own reputation. That's not a very good sign. how is it possible that the Dalai lama would privately pardon Zemey Rinpoche when he would not even officially pardon his own root Guru, Trijang Rinpoche? Obviously, there is just so many loopholes in Thutben Jinpa's statement that everyone can spot it a mile away that he is just doing this to cover his reputation.

harrynephew

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2013, 08:46:06 AM »
Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche, Dharma Lord of Gaden Shartse don't need no pardoning from another authority besides his own Root Guru, HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang! It is clearly evident that this statement is another chesspiece on the board of politics. Zemey Rinpoche is by far one of the greatest scholar within the Tibetan Buddhist community and look at the erudite students which he has so kindly and lovingly nurtured such as HE Dagom Rinpoche and Kundeling Rinpoche. These are very outspoken Lamas who do not let politics hinder their Dharma work.

So if Thubten Jinpa makes claims which justifies his own little narrowed mind about the situation, I aint gonna buy it for the fact that I choose to believe Zemey Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche better. One clear indication that such a thing did not happen is that the entire Zemey Ladrang has moved to Shar Gaden. If it was for sure that Zemey Rinpoche was "pardoned" why would his students and household move over to Shar Gaden?!

makes no sense at all!
Harry Nephew

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dsiluvu

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Re: Thupten Jinpa's comments
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2013, 07:17:22 PM »
I wonder....

Why would Thupten Jinpa say such things about himself and His root Guru which is obviously not the truth and those close to him knows it is not so? It is so easy to find witnesses like what MM did and boy are we glad to hear the whole full truth!

Could it be cos it sure seems like Thupten Jinpa have been pressured to respond to the article or perhaps... I wonder if someone else replied on his behalf... one of those CTA cronies? It would be no surprised if they did. I have basically come to a simple conclusion, whatever it is anti-Shugden Tibetans/CTA can twist and turn or lie just about anything to "cover" what they do not like, especially anything to do with Dorje Shugden. SAD but that is the truth! And this is what will make them less and less credible to the world, less and less trust worthy especially when the truth comes out like all the points MM made.

Why did Thubten Jinpa bother to even reply to this site's article, bringing more attention to himself, more investigation towards him and what he said which is so easy, and why jeopardize his reputation especially if what he said is not true? That is really not a very smart move TJ :S

When the shit hits the fan, it's gonna be hard to clean up cos even after cleaning, the stench remains! Oops!