Author Topic: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara  (Read 11309 times)

Robert Thomas

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Dear Friends,

I first read this transcript from a talk by Gonsar Rinpoche in the 1990's. At the time there was very little informed discussion regarding the sources and references. I hope that within this forum it may be possible to explore the sources Gonsar Rinpoche is referring to as I believe this should be a valuable addition to the collection of scholarly information available on this subject.

With best wishes to you all

Robert

A talk by Gonsar Rinpoche, referring, to the assertion by  a former Sakya throne holder, Tragshu Cholu Rinchen, that Dorje Shugden is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara. It also refers to a Nyingma tantra “Rinchen Nadun” which also states Dorje Shuden is the same nature as Avalokiteshvara.

Text in bold and Italic refers to the source text by the Sakya Lama from which Gonsar Rinpoche quotes.

Gonsar Rinppche’s talk:

...And this protector [Dorje Shugden], as I said before, in nature is Manjushri, as we see in the prayers. But some masters regard him also as the emanation of Avalokiteshvara.

Here I can give you one account. This is the biography, the autobiography of the great Shakyapa-master, who is the present Shakya-throneholder, and he is the one before him, and the one before him, two Shakya-Trinzins before: he was a very great master, his name is Tragshu Cholu Rinchen:

He was a really very great master in the Shakya-tradition. He lived also quite old. And he, in his autobiography, he says something extremely interesting. That is, he is speaking about his father and grandfather and so on.

(The Shakya-lineage goes always to a heritor. And there he said that, before his father was born, his grandfather, who was a throne-holder, I think, had no son whatsoever, had no son, and the son was very very necessary, they tried everything, you know, every means, but they had no son. But finally there was a son, and this was his father. And he is explaining here that his father is Avalokiteshvara in nature.) It says here:

"And the reason for that is, because he is the emanation of Gyalchen. Because he is the emanation of Gyalchen, he is Avalokiteshvara."

That is what he is trying to prove here. He says here:

"My Venerable father is the emanation of the one with the lotus in hand. There is no question about it."
And he says:

"The reason for that is, when his father asked the Mahasiddha Pedul" this was a very great master "he asked him to pray for a quick birth of a son, lineage-holder, an then at one time, in the temple of Mugchung",

mugchung is the temple of this protector in Shakya-monastery,

"during a puja in the Mugchung-temple, in between the sessions, once this mahasiddha Pedul has told the father, nowadays, in this age of degeneration, I have not found anybody else coming", I have found nobody else to come, "but now, the old Shugden himself will definitely come as your son."

He says, in this age of degeneration, I have found not anybody else who will come, but the old Shugden, he will come himself as your son. And then, his father was very happy hearing this, and then he also started, from this time on, the tradition of lighting many many lamps of their temple, just like they do in the Tsongkhapa's Ganden Ngachö, they do in the same way, the Shakya-tradition to burn so many lamps on the roof, just like in the Ganden Ngachö.

"And then he lighted many many lamps, and then played trumpet and horn, and lots of incense and so forth on the roof, did a lot of pujas on the roof: and at the same time, his wife has conceived, and then soon, my venerable father was born."
 
So, that means, it was really Gyalchen himself who came, and that was his father. And then he says further:

"This protector Dorje Shugden in essence is Avalokiteshvara, because in the Nyingma-Tantra Rinchen Nadun"

This is a Nyingma-Tantra, Nyingmapas have many Tantras that are not usually included in the Kangyur, and in one such Nyingma-Tantra which is called Rinchen Nadun, the seven jewels, it says:

"the so-called King of Dol is not somebody who has mistaken the path of the liberation, because his essence is the great compassionate one."

So that means, the King of Dol, that is another name for Gyalchen, because as I told you, the body of that lama was carried by river, and it was fished by somebody there, in the place called Dol, and there the first temple was erected. And since then, the protector is also called Dol Gyel, that means king of Dol.

In this Nyingma-Tantra, there is prophecy that the so-called King of Dol is not somebody who has mistaken the path of liberation, because his essence is Avalokiteshvara. So he says:

"With this quotation it is proved that my venerable father is Avaolokiteshvara."

So this is the word of a very great Shakya-master Tragsho Cholu Rinchen, one of the most outstanding masters in our recent time.

yedi

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • Email
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 11:31:03 AM »

"This protector Dorje Shugden in essence is Avalokiteshvara, because in the Nyingma-Tantra Rinchen Nadun"

This is a Nyingma-Tantra, Nyingmapas have many Tantras that are not usually included in the Kangyur, and in one such Nyingma-Tantra which is called Rinchen Nadun, the seven jewels, it says:


Very interesting.  :)  Where did you get this text from Gonsar Rinpoche? Is it released to the public anywhere? I never heard about this Nyingma tantra Rinchen Nadun but of course there are so many and I know only a few of my own lineage. But I will try to find out something about it. Probably Dudjom Rinpoche mentioned it anywhere in his Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism.

I understood that Dorje Shugden was installed as a Dharma potector by the 5th Dalai Lama and since the 5th Dalai Lama was also known as a great Nyingma practitioner it seems to me very evidently that Dorje Shugden is a protector for the Nyingmapas, too. Otherwise it had been somewhat schizophrenic if Dorje Shugden would have protected only the Gelug part of the 5th Dalai Lama but not his Nyingma part.

The point I am still wondering is Dorje Shugden being also a protector for some (or all)  Nyingma transmission lineages in the same way as he is in the Gelug transmission. Gonsar Rinpoche thinks not but was not sure in this question himself. If I have the possibility I will ask one time the oracle/Dültsin himself. Probably this question doesn't sound very important but for my personal practice it's a difference if Dorje Shugden accepts me doing Nyingma practice while living in a Gelug monastery (which is no question to me) or if he supports me doing so according to my obligations.

Robert Thomas

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2009, 12:38:35 PM »
Hi Yedi,

It was originally posted on one of the discussion forums, probably in 1998 - but I can't rememember for sure. You can find it doing a google search in groups.

The Tantra Rinchen Nadan is referenced in the summary on http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts-summary.html but with no additional reference.

I meant to say, I think there is another Nyingma text which references Dorje Shugden - (but I may be wrong about it being Nyingma). However the text is (and i'm working from a memory going back several years) the source for the part of Kangso which begins "Long ago in the pure land of Akanishta" It includes a request from, I think Nechung to one of Ngatrul Dragpa Gyaltsen's previous incarnations to arise as Dorje Shugden. Again - a potentially valuable reference if there is a well established source etc. I can of course provide a better reference to the section in Kangso if needed :-))

Wtih best wishes

Robert

As a post script, I think this section from Music Delighting an Ocean of Conquerors refers to the section I was thinking of. Although I now remember the text I once saw included a conversation between several Dieties ??? But maybe now I am just creating confusion! So i will stop until I have proper sources - sorry :-)

From page 92  http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/musicdelighting.pdf

"At the time of Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen's later incarnation, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, the overlord of all of the haughtyxxv gods and spirits that exist in the world, Dorje Dragden, said to the Panchen,

'Manjusri of Blissful Intelligencexxvi has insisted that I should principally protect the Geden Teachings, but since I have already sworn to Padmasambhava that I would protect all of Buddha's Teachings in general, there is no way that I can principally protect only the Geden Teachings. Now Panchen, you yourself, among holders of the Geden Teachings these days, have the highest qualities of learning and realization. Not only that, you must arise as a wrathful protector of the Geden Teachings to fulfill the commitment you have previously made!'

At that time, saying only that he would check, the master did not commit himself. Then, when his later incarnation, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, was urged by the Great Dharma King Nechung to remember his previous promise, Dragpa Gyaltsen asked, 'What promise?' seeming not to remember. Pehar gave him something from his hand, saying, 'If you take this and meditate, you will clearly remember.' Just as he said, by staying in seclusion, the master was reminded and generated fierce courage that did not shrink from arising in the form of a powerful fierce swift Dharma protector uncommon to the Geden in accordanc with his previous promise. It is that demonstration of courage for which he is being praised in this verse.

The way that Nechung Gyalchen Dorje Dragden urged Panchen Sonam Dragpa to arise in the form of a fierce protector of the Geden Teachings is clear in the Drepung edition of the Panchen's biography. Moreover, if we examine carefully the last vision cited above, that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen had on the third day of the third month of the fire monkey year, before his sudden death at the age of thirty?eight in the fifth month of that year, from the second verse onwards, from 'Guide of devas and humans, Arhat Upagupta,' up to 'It is very important to understand…that this is the meaning of the drawn picture of samaya!' one can see it there, as well."
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 01:11:13 PM by Robert Thomas »

yedi

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • Email
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2009, 11:49:25 AM »
It was originally posted on one of the discussion forums, probably in 1998 - but I can't rememember for sure. You can find it doing a google search in groups.
The Tantra Rinchen Nadan is referenced in the summary on http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts-summary.html but with no additional reference.
I meant to say, I think there is another Nyingma text which references Dorje Shugden - (but I may be wrong about it being Nyingma). However the text is (and i'm working from a memory going back several years) the source for the part of Kangso which begins "Long ago in the pure land of Akanishta" It includes a request from, I think Nechung to one of Ngatrul Dragpa Gyaltsen's previous incarnations to arise as Dorje Shugden. Again - a potentially valuable reference if there is a well established source etc. I can of course provide a better reference to the section in Kangso if needed :-))


Oh, I didn't know that there are still such old discussions online...
I tried in the meantime to get more informations about this tantra but wasn't successful yet. Dudjom Rinpoche mentions the rinchen nadun just in a common sence as the 7 precious stones or the 7 royal signs. I will probably ask in some Nyingma groups if somebody has heard about it.

From which tantra is this other reference you mean? It would be great if you could post a citation of the interesting part and it's source here.  :)


'Manjusri of Blissful Intelligencexxvi has insisted that I should principally protect the Geden Teachings, but since I have already sworn to Padmasambhava that I would protect all of Buddha's Teachings in general, there is no way that I can principally protect only the Geden Teachings.  (...)


Thanks a lot for this wonderful citation, it's very meaningful for me :)

Heartspoon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2009, 12:30:11 PM »
Yedi,

Helmuth Gassner wrote about this Nyingma tantra in his "Speech given at Naumann Foundation" (page 6)

wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/speechnaumannfoundation.pdf



yedi

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • Email
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2009, 07:09:05 PM »
@heartspoon: thanks a lot for the link. I asked Helmut also himself since I know that he mentioned this tantra in his speech but he couldn't tell me anything about the transmission lineage of this tantra, too. Only the existence of the tantra seems to be confirmed by the citation in the biography of Sakya Trizin which also Trinley Kelsang refers to.

@Trinley Kelsang
The oldest reference to this rin chen sna bdun quote I've found is from Sachen Kunga Lodro's autobiography: Sa-skya Bdag-chen Gong-ma Kung-dga'-blo-gros (1983), p. 322.

The talk about this from Gonsar Rinpoche is reference to the Sakya Trizin from earlier in the 20th century, specifically from his autobiography:  http://www.tbrc.org/kb/tbrc-detail.xq?RID=W27318

I was going to try and find the actual page numbers in this that describe what Gonsar Rinpoche is referencing.


Thanks for this very helpful source link, I didn't know about the existence of such an online-library.  :)

I could get from this page about the title rin chen sna bdun the following two informations:

rin chen sna bdun ma sogs [W1494]
[Main Author: rdo rje rgyal po]
# rin chen sna bdun ma dang bla ma ras pa la gdams pa/_grogs la bskul 'debs ma bcas (titlePageTitle )


and

sman dpyad gso ba rig pa rin chen sna bdun [W19457]
[Main Author: ]
# drang srong gi nad 'chos pa'i sman dpyad gso ba rig pa rin chen sna bdun (otherTitle )
# drang sron gi nad 'chos pa'i sman dpyad gso ba rig pa rin chen sna bdun : a treatises on the principles tibetan medicine and medical treatment. (bibliographicalTitle )


The author of the first text lived from b.1110 d. 1170, the author of the other text lived b. 1355 d. 1432. I consider both texts tod be too early to mention Dorje Shugden except it would be in the sense of a prophecy. The first author, rdo rje rgyal po, is listed as a great Kagyü master, for the second one isonly an attributed author known and it's about tibetan medicine, so I fear both links are not referring to the tantra we are talking about. Could there be some other informations about this tantric text itself? I would be really interested to know the transmission lineage and if it's a tertön text, by whom it was discovered.

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2010, 02:15:39 PM »
Dear Friends,


Here I can give you one account. This is the biography, the autobiography of the great Shakyapa-master, who is the present Shakya-throneholder, and he is the one before him, and the one before him, two Shakya-Trinzins before: he was a very great master, his name is Tragshu Cholu Rinchen


This is wonderful, thanks to you all. I had read about this first in Mr Gassner's speech many years ago, but never thought there would be any further research.

So it seems as though Gonsar Rinpoche is actually talking about the autobiography of the Present Sakya Tri. If this is true, it is revalatory. He claims in a video to be found on utube that Sakya has never viewed Dorje Shugden as anything other than worldly. Is the evidence that gives lie to his words in his own auto bio?!?

I have trouble believing it. Does anyone have a copy of this, or is this all hearsay?

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2010, 02:37:56 PM »

So it seems as though Gonsar Rinpoche is actually talking about the autobiography of the Present Sakya Tri. ....

I have trouble believing it. Does anyone have a copy of this, or is this all hearsay?

Ok, sorry, read the entry more carefully, I see the autobiography referenced is of the grandfather Dragshul Rinchen. It is confusing because there are three different grandfathers in this story!

Still, does anyone have access to the original text here? I think VERY useful........


crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2010, 10:32:36 PM »


Dragshul Trinley Rinchen (40th Sakya Trizin) was the one who wrote this story down,


Drogmi.org, a Sakya resource website, has a list of all Sakya Tri's, and it is uniformly one differnt than your source for enumnerating....for ex......  #39 Dolma Phodrang Dragshul Thinley Rinchen  1871-1936

Do know reason for discrepancy?

Great stuff, btw.....


LosangKhyentse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 850
  • WORLD PEACE PROTECTOR DORJE SHUGDEN
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2010, 10:46:22 PM »


Nyingma Dorje Shugden thangka as central figure.

Very interesting thangka because below you will see Nechung Pehar Gyelpo and Namkar Barzin. It also has the Nyingma protector Rahula.



« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 10:49:10 PM by tk »

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2012, 04:02:04 AM »
I found this old gem which has been buried for awhile and I wanted to resurface. What I thought was intriguing here is the contradiction to the standard criticism of Dorje Shugden practice by Nyingmapas and Sakyapas.

I also found this interesting debate online (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan/3LYBELeXxuE) from 1998 so it's pretty old but nevertheless I thought the points raised were interesting. This is a post from a Kelsang Khyenrab in response to a Shugden critic, Namdrol:

Hello Namdrol, here's a few observations on some of your recent posts on the issue of whether or not some Sakyas rely on Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Protector of the Dharma.

You said:
>No Sakya Lama has ever taught that Shugden is enlightened Protector.
>This is what Sakya Trizin says, and additionally, what my teacher says, who
>was resident at Sakya Monastery in Rajpur/Derhadun as the Secretary of the
>Sakya order between 1982-1989.

I asked a few people to lend their knowledge to this debate. Although I'm not quoting my sources I can tell you they've been in Tibetan Buddhism for up to 20 years, know many Lamas, lived in India, speak Tibetan etc. In other words, I take them as authoritative.

One of them told me the following:
In his talk in 1978 the present Dalai Lama repeated as a 'common story' that a throne-holder of the Sakya tradition developed a connection with Dorje Shugden. I (that's my friend) understand that this was the 17th
century Dagchen Dorje Chang Sonam Rinchen. Sakya masters at that time such as Sakya Dagchen Kunga Lodo (Sachen Kunlo) and Morchen Dorje Chang also wrote sadhanas which have been practised within the Sakya Tradition since then. Dorje Shugden, in particular in the aspect of riding a black horse, has been a Dharma Protector of the Sakya Tradition from that time until now.

Because of the pressure of the Dalai Lama's government this practice has now been suppressed within the Sakya Tradition. However, according to one oracle of Dorje Shugden, Kuten Choyang Duldzin, many Sakya
Lamas - including the father of the present Sakya Trizin - relied on Dorje Shugden and requested advice from the Dorje Shugden oracle, including advice concerning the present Sakya Trizin.

Many people have stated that they have been present during Shugden pujas with Sakya Lamas including Sakya Trizin in the Sakya Temple in Mussourie, India. In Lo, Nepal, they do (or did) an annual Dorje Shugden dance, and according to eye-witness accounts Chogye Trichen the Teacher of both Sakya
Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama, offers a katag to the dancer. The eye-witness account said the abbot of Lo Monastery told him that in Tibet, in Samye, they used to perform a dance with 32 dancers representing the 32 Deities of the Dorje Shugden Mandala plus dancers  representing Pehar and Tsemara. But nowadays they only have one dancer.

So this is one account that differs from your view. Who should we believe?

Also you quoted from an old post by Losang last year where he said:
>>"Even when I
>>visited Geshe Kelsang's nephew in the Sakya monastery in Rajpur I found
>>that they relied upon Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Protector.

In response to this you said:
>Nonsense. rTa.nag is not considered to be a enlightened protector by the
>Sakyapa, I ought to know, I studied in the Sakya tradition for eight years.

Namdrol, were your eight years prior to 1978 by any chance? How can you be certain that Sakya teachings since then haven’t undergone revision in light of the Dalai Lama’s view? How do you know written records eg sadhana booklets weren’t destroyed? And how can you be sure that you studied everything in the Sakya tradition in those 8 years?

Again you quote:
>>prayers and offerings to him which were in essence the same as those
>>offered to Mahakala who all schools believe to be an enlightened being. I

Your response:
>How can you possibly know this? You don't know Tibetan.

Sorry, Namdrol, but Losang does know Tibetan. Although I can't read that language I know of several Western Dorje Shugden practitioners who can read and speak it. And then there are Tibetan practitioners who can also read and speak English.

Again you quoted:
>>aspect except that he was riding a horse. Perhaps it is only when he rides
>>a snow lion that he becomes harmfull! I was so surprized when I later heard
>>the Sakyapas saying that they only gave Dorje Shugden cakes so that he
>>would not get angry with them. I notice on the Sakya calander that they no
>>longer practice Dorje Shugden. If they truly believed he was such a demonic
>>being and feared him so much then why do they not continue to appease him
>>with cakes? I believe it is the tibetan politicians that they fear more
>>than Dorje Shugden. His Holiness Sakya Trinzen spent a large part of his
>>time at this monastery so surely he knows the real situation."

And then you said:
>Yes, Sakya Trizin is my root Guru. He maintains that Shugden is a) harmful
>b) mundane. The fact is that Shugden is deity practice in Sakya mainly by
>the Khon family in Sakya monastery proper. The Ngorpas and the Tharpas
>have never adopted this practice.

Perhaps I could put forward the following ideas here. There are 3 possible explanations:

1.You are lying
2. Sakya Trizin is lying
3. There are two ways of regarding Dorje Shugden in the Sakya lineage - openly and secretly.

Then as both you and Sakya Trizin are Buddhists and would not lie, we have to conclude that the third is the only reasonable explanation for the differences between us on this matter.

Also, can you say for sure that Sakya Trizin has never explained to any of his other disciples a different way of perceiving Dorje Shugden? Are you omniscient? Namdrol, you may know a lot but I suspect you do not
know everything. Or are you claiming to be enlightened?

As a great Teacher, Sakya Trizin would explain what is most beneficial according to the karmic connections of each of his students. Even Buddha himself taught in this way. 

You also said:
>BY claiming a Sakyapa origin for your views, you are in effect
>misrepresenting and attacking Sakya.

No-one here is attacking Sakya. Relax. We are telling you what our lineage gurus have explained to us.

You also said:
>Anyone who has studied in the Sakya tradition knows that Gorampa did not
>believe that Tsongkhapa's visions of Manjushri were authentic. Why? Because
>in Gorampa's opinion, Tsongkhapa's explanations of Buddhism were incorrect,
>and therefor, his "Manjushri", from whom Tsongkhapa credits with all of his
>insights, kmust have been a mara. This is not sectarian-- this is one
>scholar criticizing and passing judgements on another scholar.

Then what does Gorampa think of Buddha Shakyamuni's prediction that a boy living at that time, an emanation of Manjushri, would become a monk called Losang Dragpa (Tsongkhapa’s ordained name) at a place called Ganden? Does Gorampa think that Buddha made a mistake? Does Gorampa not accept Buddha's endorsement that Tsongkhapa is, in fact, an emanation of Manjushri?

Namdrol, why should written records, even Tibetan ones, be such an authoritative source of knowledge? People can write down anything - that does not make it a truth. Oral lineages remain oral because there's
no karma for them to be written down. It doesn't mean that they are wrong. Buddha himself and his immediate disciples maintained only oral lineages.

BTW another friend told me that one of the high Sakya Lamas said directly that there was/is a line of Sakyas that secretly rely upon Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Protector but this person didn't wish to be quoted publicly. Why not? In the current climate in Tibetan Buddhism does that question really need an answer? Why should a high Sakya lama rely secretly? Why do people not want to be quoted publicly? Why are we having this debate?

Khyenrab

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2012, 04:23:13 PM »
I found this old gem which has been buried for awhile and I wanted to resurface. What I thought was intriguing here is the contradiction to the standard criticism of Dorje Shugden practice by Nyingmapas and Sakyapas.

I also found this interesting debate online (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan/3LYBELeXxuE) from 1998 so it's pretty old but nevertheless I thought the points raised were interesting. This is a post from a Kelsang Khyenrab in response to a Shugden critic, Namdrol:

Hello Namdrol, here's a few observations on some of your recent posts on the issue of whether or not some Sakyas rely on Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Protector of the Dharma.

You said:
>No Sakya Lama has ever taught that Shugden is enlightened Protector.
>This is what Sakya Trizin says, and additionally, what my teacher says, who
>was resident at Sakya Monastery in Rajpur/Derhadun as the Secretary of the
>Sakya order between 1982-1989.

I asked a few people to lend their knowledge to this debate. Although I'm not quoting my sources I can tell you they've been in Tibetan Buddhism for up to 20 years, know many Lamas, lived in India, speak Tibetan etc. In other words, I take them as authoritative.

One of them told me the following:
In his talk in 1978 the present Dalai Lama repeated as a 'common story' that a throne-holder of the Sakya tradition developed a connection with Dorje Shugden. I (that's my friend) understand that this was the 17th
century Dagchen Dorje Chang Sonam Rinchen. Sakya masters at that time such as Sakya Dagchen Kunga Lodo (Sachen Kunlo) and Morchen Dorje Chang also wrote sadhanas which have been practised within the Sakya Tradition since then. Dorje Shugden, in particular in the aspect of riding a black horse, has been a Dharma Protector of the Sakya Tradition from that time until now.

Because of the pressure of the Dalai Lama's government this practice has now been suppressed within the Sakya Tradition. However, according to one oracle of Dorje Shugden, Kuten Choyang Duldzin, many Sakya
Lamas - including the father of the present Sakya Trizin - relied on Dorje Shugden and requested advice from the Dorje Shugden oracle, including advice concerning the present Sakya Trizin.

Many people have stated that they have been present during Shugden pujas with Sakya Lamas including Sakya Trizin in the Sakya Temple in Mussourie, India. In Lo, Nepal, they do (or did) an annual Dorje Shugden dance, and according to eye-witness accounts Chogye Trichen the Teacher of both Sakya
Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama, offers a katag to the dancer. The eye-witness account said the abbot of Lo Monastery told him that in Tibet, in Samye, they used to perform a dance with 32 dancers representing the 32 Deities of the Dorje Shugden Mandala plus dancers  representing Pehar and Tsemara. But nowadays they only have one dancer.

So this is one account that differs from your view. Who should we believe?

Also you quoted from an old post by Losang last year where he said:
>>"Even when I
>>visited Geshe Kelsang's nephew in the Sakya monastery in Rajpur I found
>>that they relied upon Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Protector.

In response to this you said:
>Nonsense. rTa.nag is not considered to be a enlightened protector by the
>Sakyapa, I ought to know, I studied in the Sakya tradition for eight years.

Namdrol, were your eight years prior to 1978 by any chance? How can you be certain that Sakya teachings since then haven’t undergone revision in light of the Dalai Lama’s view? How do you know written records eg sadhana booklets weren’t destroyed? And how can you be sure that you studied everything in the Sakya tradition in those 8 years?

Again you quote:
>>prayers and offerings to him which were in essence the same as those
>>offered to Mahakala who all schools believe to be an enlightened being. I

Your response:
>How can you possibly know this? You don't know Tibetan.

Sorry, Namdrol, but Losang does know Tibetan. Although I can't read that language I know of several Western Dorje Shugden practitioners who can read and speak it. And then there are Tibetan practitioners who can also read and speak English.

Again you quoted:
>>aspect except that he was riding a horse. Perhaps it is only when he rides
>>a snow lion that he becomes harmfull! I was so surprized when I later heard
>>the Sakyapas saying that they only gave Dorje Shugden cakes so that he
>>would not get angry with them. I notice on the Sakya calander that they no
>>longer practice Dorje Shugden. If they truly believed he was such a demonic
>>being and feared him so much then why do they not continue to appease him
>>with cakes? I believe it is the tibetan politicians that they fear more
>>than Dorje Shugden. His Holiness Sakya Trinzen spent a large part of his
>>time at this monastery so surely he knows the real situation."

And then you said:
>Yes, Sakya Trizin is my root Guru. He maintains that Shugden is a) harmful
>b) mundane. The fact is that Shugden is deity practice in Sakya mainly by
>the Khon family in Sakya monastery proper. The Ngorpas and the Tharpas
>have never adopted this practice.

Perhaps I could put forward the following ideas here. There are 3 possible explanations:

1.You are lying
2. Sakya Trizin is lying
3. There are two ways of regarding Dorje Shugden in the Sakya lineage - openly and secretly.

Then as both you and Sakya Trizin are Buddhists and would not lie, we have to conclude that the third is the only reasonable explanation for the differences between us on this matter.

Also, can you say for sure that Sakya Trizin has never explained to any of his other disciples a different way of perceiving Dorje Shugden? Are you omniscient? Namdrol, you may know a lot but I suspect you do not
know everything. Or are you claiming to be enlightened?

As a great Teacher, Sakya Trizin would explain what is most beneficial according to the karmic connections of each of his students. Even Buddha himself taught in this way. 

You also said:
>BY claiming a Sakyapa origin for your views, you are in effect
>misrepresenting and attacking Sakya.

No-one here is attacking Sakya. Relax. We are telling you what our lineage gurus have explained to us.

You also said:
>Anyone who has studied in the Sakya tradition knows that Gorampa did not
>believe that Tsongkhapa's visions of Manjushri were authentic. Why? Because
>in Gorampa's opinion, Tsongkhapa's explanations of Buddhism were incorrect,
>and therefor, his "Manjushri", from whom Tsongkhapa credits with all of his
>insights, kmust have been a mara. This is not sectarian-- this is one
>scholar criticizing and passing judgements on another scholar.


Then what does Gorampa think of Buddha Shakyamuni's prediction that a boy living at that time, an emanation of Manjushri, would become a monk called Losang Dragpa (Tsongkhapa’s ordained name) at a place called Ganden? Does Gorampa think that Buddha made a mistake? Does Gorampa not accept Buddha's endorsement that Tsongkhapa is, in fact, an emanation of Manjushri?

Namdrol, why should written records, even Tibetan ones, be such an authoritative source of knowledge? People can write down anything - that does not make it a truth. Oral lineages remain oral because there's
no karma for them to be written down. It doesn't mean that they are wrong. Buddha himself and his immediate disciples maintained only oral lineages.

BTW another friend told me that one of the high Sakya Lamas said directly that there was/is a line of Sakyas that secretly rely upon Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Protector but this person didn't wish to be quoted publicly. Why not? In the current climate in Tibetan Buddhism does that question really need an answer? Why should a high Sakya lama rely secretly? Why do people not want to be quoted publicly? Why are we having this debate?

Khyenrab

Hi Wisdombeing,

Thank you for sharing this interesting piece of refutation against Namdrol aka Malcolm Smith, the self proclaimed king of Dharma who criticized Tsongkhapa with the most force in many of his writings. He claims Dorje Shugden to be sectarian but he himself is more sectarian than anyone else. Criticizing Tsongkhapa the way he did is no different from criticizing the Gelug tradition and why would he want to do that? Because he is insecure of his own lineage and the teachings and attainments within it. If Tsongkhapa was wrong and Tsongkhapa's vision of Manjushri was a mara, then how do you explain the existence of so many high lamas who have passed on to clear light and returned, all of them who followed Tsongkhapa's teachings? How do you explain how the Dalai Lama (who is Gelug by the way, and also one of Lama Tsongkhapa's direct disciples) gain any attainments? If you say that Tsongkhapa is wrong, that means that the Dalai Lama is a fake too. His disclaimer that its a scholar criticizing another is just a very thin excuse to make him look good: why is it that gorampa never challenged Tsongkhapa directly? they lived in the same era. Also, why is it that Gorampa is not famous at all? Only Namdrol and a few others know him. Why did he not reform the sakya school or led the sakya school if he was equal or better than Tsongkhapa?

This is the blatant sectarianism that some people portray and they mislead many with their sectarian comments. Newbies who read this is sure to be taken in by such statements and believe that they are true when they are not. It is also very one sided to boot, so if this is not blatant sectarianism, what is?

Dondrup Shugden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2015, 04:22:42 AM »
This is mind blowing to read what the Sakya and Nyingma comment on Dorje Shugden.  Dorje Shugden is definitely much much more that what the Gelugpas think He is.

Powerful read to know the greatness of Dorje Shugden.

christine V

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
    • Email
Re: Sakya & Nyingma sources asserting Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2015, 01:35:03 PM »
Thanks for the mind blowing statement, Wisdom being. It got me to think that the claim that Dorje Shugden is sectarian is a fault accusation.

Think deeply, One of the reincarnation of Dorje Shugden's previous life is Sakya pandita, who were the famous dharma practitioner. Thus, if we believe that the mind stream of a highly attain monk is the same wherever and whoever they reincarnate. This mean, how could Dorje Shugden be sectarian. Is impossible!