Author Topic: Why is this religious suppression taking place?  (Read 15802 times)

wisdombuddha

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Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« on: May 16, 2008, 02:53:18 PM »
"There will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If those who do not accept the ban do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them."
-The Dalai Lama to monks in India who questioned the ban

We may ask, "Why is this religious suppression is taking place?"

It is admittedly hard even for Tibetan Buddhists suffering under this ban to understand the arcane political or religious reasons the Dalai Lama is giving, let alone for Westerners new to the subject to fathom it!

It may be easier to understand that the Dalai Lama must be frustrated after so many years in exile and how little progress he has made in winning even autonomy for Tibet, let alone the independence that so many Tibetans still want. If anything, it seems that Tibet is further away than ever before from its goals. It is perhaps understandable that he therefore wishes to lead or unite all Tibetans in exile; but the world has moved on since he first fled into exile. We would like him to just consider that persecuting his own people as a scapegoat -- causing them incredible sadness, fear and loneliness -- is not going to win the old Tibet back, nor help the unity of the Tibetan people either now or in the future.

Dorje Shugden practitioners are feeling immense sorrow at this time. They have hurt no one. They have done nothing wrong. They are not interested in politics. They are peaceful Buddhist practitioners, lay and ordained, dedicated to helping all living beings find a deep inner peace and happiness. Many have hoped and prayed for years (since the Dalai Lama started speaking out in the 1970s and then issued the ban in the 1990s) that this nightmarish problem of being rejected by their own Dalai Lama will go away, that it is just a bad dream; but it has only worsened such that they now feel obliged to seek help from others, to ask the world to listen.

They have no wish to harm the Dalai Lama at all. All they want is the freedom to continue practicing the compassion, love and wisdom of the Buddhist tradition of Je Tsongkhapa and to rely upon Dorje Shugden as the Wisdom Buddha Protector of that tradition. They want to do this while remaining regular and even valued members of their society, without segregation or persecution.

These thousands of abbots, monks, nuns, lamas, and lay families are just as dedicated to a peaceful and successful future for Tibet as any of their fellow Tibetans. There would be no reason for them to say they were being denied their human rights if it were not happening.

This conflict might at first glance seem like an arcane religious problem but in reality it is a human rights' issue and a case of religious persecution based on a political decision. So far no one has been burnt at stake, but many have been threatened with murder, physically attacked, forced to leave their communities, schools, homes or workplaces, refused entry into shops to buy food, refused identity cards (and the ability to travel freely etc), and so on.

There is no record anywhere of any of them retaliating. They are dedicated to non-violence in the tradition of their teachers. Some are demonstrating in the manner of Martin Luther King to stand up for their rights and freedom and some are trying to instigate court proceedings. They are on the defensive, not the offensive.

pclayton

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2008, 06:05:03 PM »
"There will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If those who do not accept the ban do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them."
-The Dalai Lama to monks in India who questioned the ban

Hi wisdom, do you have a reference that one can use to validate the legitmacy of this quote? When referencing these quotes it is very helpful if one states where the quote can be documented, otherwise it looks like a fabrication or hearsay.

Thanks!

wisdombuddha

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2008, 06:14:24 PM »
http://www.shugdensociety.info/historyEvents1999.html
January 13, 1999

H.H. the Dalai Lama paid visit to Trijang Labrang, the residence of His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche (1900-1981), his tutor. At a gathering of the Labrang's, H.H. the Dalai Lama says: “...during my visit to Switzerland, Lobsang said, the current Choktul Rinpoche be allowed to worship Dorje Shugden like his predecessor, without a decision through the dough ball divination. He also told me that the ban on Shugden worship is causing widespread suffering to everyone, and that it may be revoked. This is ridiculous talk. My reason for banning the Protector is in the interest of Tibetan's politics and religion, as well as for the Gelug tradition. In our face to face meeting, I also told Rinpoche to understand that we may meet each other for the last time. During this private audience with H.H. the Dalai Lama, Ven. Choezed la, the eldest official at Trijang Labrang, mostly humbly pointed out that the religious ban has created an unprecedented atmosphere of hostility against both Shartse monastery and against Trijang Labrang which is not very different from the atmosphere of the Cultural Revolution in Tibet. He requested that, to lift the suffering within the Tibetan public from this atmosphere, he may kindly consider revoking the ban.

To this, H.H. the Dalai Lama angrily said, “there will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If they (those who do not accept the ban) do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them.”

pclayton

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2008, 06:26:52 PM »
Thanks for this widsom, however, you are simply repeating a claim made on the Dorje Shugden Devotee's Charitable & Religious Society webpage. When speaking to people who don't sympathize with the Shugden cause, this sort of reference is what one could term "self-referential", i.e., there is no independent, non-biased source for the quote.

The DSDCRS doesn't reference their source either, making the claim of the quote open to doubt.

Thanks!

a friend

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2008, 09:23:59 PM »
Yeah, it's well known that every single quote by a journalist has to have at least
an ISBN number from the Library of Congress
and a blessing from the Vatican Office for the Preservation of Faith.

That's how information goes around the world. Anything lacking those requisites nobody believes.

pclayton

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2008, 11:32:52 PM »
Thanks, a friend, for the helpful response??????

I'm not trying to be argumentative or disruptive, I am asking because if one is talking to people who might not know much about this situation, the they are going to be asking for some hard evidence, or at least many people will. I find that many people don't just believe something because it is posted on a website. They are going to want some kind of verification of what you are saying, and like it or not, some mainstream, neutral news source will be believed quicker than a website which has a stated agenda.

a friend

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2008, 11:48:53 PM »
This is not the time any more for this discussion, it was in the last month, until yesterday.
Today the demonstrations resumed.

Now it's time to disseminate our information in an intelligent way.

Don't worry about who believes what now, it doesn't obviously follow the rules you mention, nor many others. It's a mundane, deceptive game of mental images. Do you think the Dalai Lama is presenting any hard evidence? Of what?
Forget this, now, and use your excellent brains to go and write letters in the way you see fit, and I'm sure it's going to be very good. Send them now to Germany, later to the rest of the world. That is, if you wish, of course.

If you come up with a letter that satisfies you, then please post it also here, that others might use it or get inspired, because it's not so easy to write letters, and you seem to be a good writer.

 :)

a friend

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2008, 05:57:26 AM »
How many scholars do you need to unveil a lie?
I sincerely don't think, Trinley Kelsang, coming to think of it, that right now there is such need of scholarly work to handle this situation.

Do you really think that scholarly work is going to be the antidote for the Dalai Lama's big lie repeated for so many years?
No, because people are blind. His fame, his assumed holiness, make people blind.
What is needed is to restore people's sight.

There is no amount of scholarly work which can restore people's sight.
You need to get to people's heart and intelligence and destroy the bubble of fame and duplicity.

There are ways to get help. Politicians know that, they put their careers in the hands of professionals. I think we should imitate them. This is not a Dharma matter, it's a mundane matter of power and politics. Let's use those who know how to change public opinion.

In the mean time, let's go on disseminating the news about families destroyed, children thrown out of school, humble vendors threatened ... the tragedy of the exiled in exile. Is there any need of scholarly work for that? Let's keep showing the truths we know ... although we are unskilled to present them, they are more than enough to destroy the big lie.

a friend

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2008, 04:28:25 PM »
Dearest, I don't want to distract you from letter-sending.
Just to point out that no significant number, nor even minimal number of people are believing in the "Shugden Affair" because of the biased scholarly job of Dreyfuss.
It's the propaganda machine in mass media that has done the trick.
It's doing it now.

Did you notice the perfect development of his "autonomy vs. independence" trick? Yesterday I saw him embracing a group of tiny kids and the press captioning: Dalai Lama does not want independence from China.

How would this sit with his Tibetans, that, as you know here in this website, even when educated continue to dream about independence? How would the Dalai Lama had been able to state these things openly, publically, repeateadly, as he is doing now, without having set fire to the Tibetan community with the "Shugden cult" and its Chinese ties? He started in January, in Southern India. Don't you see his perfect timing?

This is what is needed, analysis of present-day reality. This is what is needed: to repeat again and again his astute, incredibly well timed actions.

Go and put Tibetans in a state of rage and fury against something (the Shugden).
Then go and proclaim as much as you want what they don't want to know: autonomy.

We, "the Shugden", as he has tagged us, we take the rage that the Tibetans were going to direct at him, that's all. So simple, so invisible.

a friend

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2008, 03:54:47 AM »
TK, I'll quote myself from above:
I sincerely don't think, Trinley Kelsang, coming to think of it, that right now there is such need of scholarly work to handle this situation.

"Right now" means from now to the end of the Olympics. A window of opportunity that won't repeat itself any time soon.

Of course any research can be useful in the long run. Right now we need to break the barrier of blindness, that's not done with scholarly research. We need to get to the media and the public. Now.
Unhappily I don't know what more to do.

pclayton

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2008, 01:21:55 PM »
Hi everyone, just a couple of thoughts:

1) I wasn't really asking for scholarly evidence, I was asking for neutral news sources or unbiased transcripts which might validate some of the quotes which are being attributed to the Dalai Lama. But I appreciate all the feedback anyway. Discussion is a good thing.

2) I am not a Shugden practitioner. My Gelug Guru has advised me against the practice. I have investigated his advice and I am satisfied. I have no problem with others who want to continue Shugden practice. It is your right as a human to practice your faith in the way that you choose.

I came to this site to try to understand the Shugden practitioner's point of view better so that dialogue between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners might become more beneficial.

After I posted my first 2 messages, I received this email from Thomas Canada:

--- On Fri, 5/16/08, Thomas Canada <[email protected]> wrote:

> From: Thomas Canada <[email protected]>
> Subject:
> Date: Friday, May 16, 2008, 8:32 PM
> The Dalia lama is a prick, just like his brothers!
> You can quote me!
> I said it.
>
>
> --
> Mr. Thom

This sort of written (verbal) communication seems to go against the very essence of our Buddhist vows. I have not disparaged anyone's Guru. I have not tried to make anyone lose faith in their Guru. Why would Mr. Canada disparage another's Guru and try to make someone lose faith in their Guru?

I understand if you disagree with the Dalai Lama's activities against the Shugden practice and you want to speak out, but I do not understand the insults, name calling, etc.

It doesn't matter if you believe that the "other side" has engaged in the same activities, one must still watch their own activities of body, speech and mind.

I hope there is a peaceful resolution to this conflict (issue).

Best regards,
Pup Clayton

a friend

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2008, 11:01:14 PM »
Clayton,

you seem to be a decent guy. Forgive Thom, he's one more victim of the Dalai Lama.

You are not asked --actually nobody was ever asked-- to become a practitioner of the wrathful emanation of Mañjushri-Yamantaka. This is a Tantric practice that a few lucky ones have implored our Gurus to impart us.

Mostly the traditional Dorje Shugden people in Tibet, Mongolia, Nepal and India were devotees, related to the Deity through their local monastery, through their families, like that. The initiation was something very precious, not given lightly and imparted rarely.

You would die of shock if I told you who among the Western persecutors of the Deity requested this initiation not one but many times to several of our lineage Lamas. Our Lamas, with their divine sight, never gave it to him. At least when he badmouths the Protector and us he is not breaking samaya, except with his own conscience.

...

You would be interested in finding out what the Dalai Lama is doing right now, while he preaches religious tolerance to the world. He has parallel activities, don't you think that he is not busy. Go to A request from the Shugden Society. Informative.

Clayton, you should read too the interview to the Phelgyeling monks by Ursula Bernis in 1997. You will find it in today's posts.
There you will learn something that should enlighten you further, since you have the good sense of investigating.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 12:14:59 AM by a friend »

Alexis

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2008, 11:20:21 PM »
Are we again speaking of Robert Thurman here!!!   ;D

pclayton

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2008, 02:36:35 AM »
Dear A Friend,

Thank you for responding to my posting. I try to be balanced in my approach.

I do take exception to 2 things in your reply:

1) During my many years with the NKT, I did not have to implore anyone to learn about and engage in the practice of Shugden. It was recommended that I start the practice practically the moment I walked through the doors. Every student in the NKT is encouraged to participate in prayers which propitiate Shugden - if you aren't familiar with the NKT sadhanas check out Heart Jewel, Wishfulfilling Jewel and Melodious Drum - all Shugden practices which all NKT students are encouraged to participate in. The blessing empowerment of Shugden is offered to the students every year, and all students are encouraged to take the empowerment.

2) As I mentioned in my previous post, it is considered a breach of basic vows to disparage another person's Guru. I find your comments about His Holiness' "secret activities" to be nothing but an attempt to undermine my faith in one of my Gurus. When someone mentions to me a Guru that I disagree with, or I believe to be engaged in "misguided" activities, I keep my mouth shut and tell the person that I am happy that they are receiving so much benefit from their Guru.

I am not interested in trying to turn you away from your Guru and I wish you would respect my devotion to my Guru.

It is one thing to want to be allowed to practice your faith in peace - it is quite another to try to destroy someone else's reputation. And it doesn't matter if you believe that His Holiness has tried to destroy anyone's reputation - just because someone does a bad thing does not make it OK for you to do the same bad thing.

I try so hard to find common ground with the Shugden practitioners, as we are all Buddhist practitioners, but it seems that the discussion always ends up with someone wanting to tear down His Holiness. It makes me wonder: what is the real agenda: religious freedom or destruction of the reputation of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Again, I call for respectful dialogue between all parties, and I pray for a peaceful resolution to this issue,
May everyone be happy,
Best regards,
Pup Clayton



a friend

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2008, 02:56:41 AM »
Kudos for NKT that they are giving so generously the practice of the Protector. I don't know anything about their mores. I only know that I visited them once and I was delighted by their hospitality and the extraordinary beauty of their temple. I definitely know that I revere Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for the extreme clarity and purity of his teachings. I've read most of his books and his is the pure Dharma of Je Tsongkapa. What a flawless diamond Gelugpa.

I am an old person and what I told you about the Protector is the traditional way. No doubt Geshe Kelsang Gyatso opened up the imparting of the Protector's initiation forced by the Dalai Lama's actions. Good for Geshela!

I am at a loss with the "secret activities" part. I never said his activities were secret. You don't send your officials stir up a whole community in secret. The Dalai Lama never hid his actions, how could he? What he does is that he denies them after the fact.

I am very sorry that you think "I" am disparaging your Lama. The Dalai Lama disparages himself with his actions. For years I didn't say anything against him, after the first big battles back in 1996. I even refused to think about the horrible things he's done. What do you know about the innumerable hours I spent in my life crying for what he's done to his Guru, for what he's done to my Guru, for what he's done to Dharma, for what he does to practitioners, but main, for what he is doing to himself? What do you know about my love for him? But he went to Southern India last January and attacked the Sangha. HE FORCED A SCHISM IN THE SANGHA FOR HEAVENS SAKE and you talk to me about a breach of vows?

Clayton please, give me a break!