Author Topic: Why is this religious suppression taking place?  (Read 15986 times)

Alexis

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2008, 03:52:37 AM »
The Dalai-Lama is advising all Gelugpas to break their vows and committments and to give up their Lineage Lamas!!!!

I'm glad I never received anything from him.

Remeber, you have to investigate the actions of a guru before choosing to serve him. We don't do that anymore!

We don't really investigate the actions of our gurus, we just buy what the media tell us.

pclayton

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2008, 10:50:59 AM »
Dear A Friend,

You are absolutely correct. You did not say "secret activities", the phrase was "parallel activities".

I'm not one to engage in never-ending circular arguments. I believe that we have both stated our positions in regards to His Holiness and on this issue we will just have to agree to disagree.

Yes Alexis, I agree with you that many people don't investigate their Gurus properly before taking samaya with them. I found that to be the case with many NKT students and I think you are absolutely correct that many people accept His Holiness as well without properly investigating.

For myself, I investigated both Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and HHDL and chose to keep a respectful distance from GKG and instead follow HHDL. You may believe that I made a bad choice, but if I understand your group correctly, you believe strongly in freedom of religion.

Dear TrinleyKalsang, thank you so much for your well thought out and reasonable statements in regards to this who situation, even though we have different viewpoints, I have nothing but respect for your position and the manner in which you present your arguments.

I have many Vajra brothers and sisters who are Shugden practitioners. It is so easy for people to fall into an "us vs. them" mentality in situations like this. TrinleyKalsang, your reasonable approach to dialogue elevates the discussion above that.




basically

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2008, 01:18:07 PM »
Hi people

Just looking at this exchange reminds me of the utter torment I underwent after the DL came out with his ban  I had received Highest Yoga Tantra initiations from both DL and Geshe Kelsang.  What to do ?  Eventually I understood that the DL was not actually a qualified Dharma Teacher never mind Tantric Master.   How?  Because he broke the basic of all basics - that is his guru reliance on Trijang Dorjechang - he said that those who practice Shugden cannot be his friend.  So.  Now I have no problem at all in pointing out his faulty words and actions - sometimes quite forcefully - part of the intention here is to help the DL.  According to Vinaya a person who causes a schism in the Sangha goes straight to hell - I do not wish that to happen to the DL so he needs to recognise his mistake.

Nelson Mandela said "Everything is impossible - until it happens!"  Maybe the Dalai Lama will change his mind....
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 07:04:22 PM by basically »

pclayton

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2008, 02:20:21 PM »
I have been talking with a lot of people about this issue: people new to Buddhism, people who identitfy with other traditions, and people like myself who have some experience with this issue. One of the things I keep hearing over and over is that initially people are interested in what the WSS has to say and want to know more about the problems being created for the Shugden pratitioners, but once they visit the WSS site, this site and other similar sites, as well as read that brochure that is being passed around, and they encounter things like: HHDL is evil, he is a "saffron-robed muslim", I hope he goes to hell, etc., etc., etc., they are immediately turned off. They just stop reading.

I just read Mr. basically's post and he proclaims that HHDL is not a qualified Dharma teacher. Whatever.

I know your group wants to reach out to the general public and get them behind your movement.

I personally think you are going to have an uphill battle as long as your message appears to more about destroying the reputation of HHDL than educating people about your reliance on Dorje Shugden and how you believe that you are the victims of religious persecution.

I am sure many of you will disagree with me on that point, but that's just my perspective.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 02:55:47 PM by pclayton »

indolent1

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2008, 02:45:54 PM »
Hi P C Clayton,

I agree, but I suspect that this

"I do wish that to happen to the DLso he needs to recognise his mistake."

was a typo and should probably have included the word "not".


Alexis

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2008, 03:25:34 PM »
Mr Clayton,

For about two months there has been a serious debate about the words you are reffering to about the DL: «evil...saffron robed...», etc, etc.

Many of us on this website completely disagreed with the WDSS about the inclusion of those labels and words in the pamphlets and publications.

We advocated a more factual and historical approach to the problem of the Dalai-Lama's persecution of the ganden lineage. Our voices, however, were never heard by the WDSS.

Please check threads like this one to understand what we are talking about:

http://dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=295.0

There are many of us here and as you might have noticed, we do not speak (or write!) with one voice.

If you care to dig in the previous pages of the forum, you will find many threads about that debate.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 03:27:49 PM by Alexis »

basically

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2008, 07:42:23 PM »
Thank you indolent1 for pointing out my typo!  There is no way I wish for anyone to suffer the fires of hell....

Apologies to pclayton if you misunderstood due that typo...You say "Whatever" dismissively regarding my view of the qualifications of the DL as a teacher but honestly how could it be any other way?!  He plainly chucked out the kindnesses of Trijang Dorjechang.....he is not even qualified to teach the first meditation in the Lamrim never mind Tantric initiations etc.

Today we of the Western Shugden Society had a great day in London trying to reach the ears of the Dalai Lama with our demands for religious freedom.  We chanted at Portcullis House - near the Houses of Parliament where the DL gave some comments to 7 out 13 invited MP's (6 didn't bother to turn up).  Then later around 1000 Shugden practitioners demonstrated outside the Royal Albert Hall - the DL drove straight past us and definitely heard what we  were saying.  Inside he didn't mention at all anything about Dorje Shugden - an unusual event to be sure.  The world's press swarmed everywhere and many many people took our information packs about the abuses and took photographs and personal videos of our actions.....reports are appearing on another link here...

three pots

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2008, 01:30:27 AM »
Hi all,

Again I just want to thank everyone for their time here and thought I'd add a few cents to the topic.

First - I do not feel it is helpful or necessary in any way to take on the character and/or qualifications of the Dalai Lama.  Period.  The facts alone speak for themselves and that is ultimately what will garner the support that is being sought after.  Who among us is qualified to judge the character of the Dalai Lama... or anyone for that matter?  Please speak up.

Clayton, I agree with you that some of the language on this forum (and not by most, so please don't take offence) is irresponsible and self-serving and does not benefit the urgent nature of this issue.  However, please do take the time to read further into the posts because those one or two individuals do not represent the majority here who are earnestly trying to shed light on this issue... to find a solution and to do so with the best possible intentions for the Buddha Dharma.

Second - I think it is of utmost importance that we back up whatever we can with facts... credibility is of the essence as we are building our reputation from the ground up in the global community... and possibly even having to drag it out of the dirt a bit as there has been so much negative publicity in the past that has gone uncontested.  My friend - I think you are correct in many ways - and the urgency of getting the information out is just as important, so please don't think I'm discounting your efforts and advice... just supplementing it with hopes for quality and credibility. 

We've got to do this right.

Best wishes ;o)

a friend

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2008, 04:41:49 AM »
Three Pots is saying: I think it is of utmost importance that we back up whatever we can with facts... credibility is of the essence
Dearest friend Tripitaka, and TK and Clayton and all.

There is something I want to say but I'm not sure to be able to say it right.
Ok. Let's go back to the beginning.

As we said many times, neither our Lamas nor our Dharmapala need to be protected. Sentient beings are the ones who need that we protect our Lama's reputation, Je Tsongkapa's lineage reputation, and of course our Dharmapala's. Sentient beings need that their reputation be recovered from the mud where the Dalai Lama has thrown it, because otherwise, how can they benefit from this pure lineage, these pure Lamas, this glorious Protector, described as the lineage protected by an evil spirit, and upheld by devil-worshippers? So this is clear I hope, this is our motivation. As the ContentedKadampa wrote: You are protecting this lineage of teachings for future generations who will come to love -- and benefit from -- the profound practice of Dorje Shugden... and, I would say, the whole of the practices of this peerless lineage of Je Rinpoche's.

How to do this?
Well, this is the part difficult to express. I just hate to discuss our lineage and our Lamas and our Protector with those who are not suitable. There are rules for debate, and I do not wish to debate religious points with people that are not my fellow practitioners. The "Dharamsala side" is not suitable: not only the Dalai Lama refuses debate, he uses also false speech as easily as a kid eats candy. Journalists in general are not suitable: this is a tantric practice after all and to try to explain it is quite risky from the vows point of view, and besides, what would they understand? Nothing. Even historical facts about our most holy Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen: to the public, they are so distorted already by biased parties, and they are purposely mudded in such a way that in the end who can definitely claim this or that in the ordinary level? Even documents can be said to be false when you want to remain in denial of truth. People barely know their own history, who is going to follow these mystical fogs where even our general Dharmapalas are considered "Demons of Tibet" ... as the famous exhibit called them 35 years ago in Paris.

If you need to give facts, it's today's facts that count, that don't have to be proved, they are happening as we talk. We don't need credibility when you can have the victims talking today. We have to show the world today that the Dalai Lama is coldly attacking today the human rights of so many of his own people while preaching today world peace and demanding respect for the human rights of Tibetans in Tibet. It's by showing this daring duplicity that the world might understand that what he did and said against the Protector and our Lamas is totally untrue, a red herring to distract from his unlawful actions, and the Protector, a scapegoat for the rage of Tibetans deprived even of the dream of independence by a single man, without ever having themselves been asked their opinion.

So the urgency of getting the information out comes from this, that the facts are happening right now and we don't need to work on backing up anything. Also of course, that anything connected to the Dalai Lama in the next days, until the Olympic Games, makes news titles. After that the attention to anything connected to him is going to die for a long time, precisely because of the intensity of the attention given to him today.



Trinley Kelsang: just before posting this, your new, terribly moving message arrived. Friend, I'm unable to say anything about it, I just wish you were here to give you a hug.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 04:48:13 AM by a friend »

a friend

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2008, 09:12:24 PM »
For years now they've been leaking the rumor that there was going to be a ban against our holy lady from Kechara. Even if you wish with all your might to hit Je Pabongka, our second Naropa, since she belongs to all traditions it's impossible to do something like that ... but who knows? The blood in the milk ... I don't know the goose that is going to be able to separate them now.

...

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Why is this religious suppression taking place?
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2008, 07:34:37 PM »
And this mud slinging continues past the Dorje Shugden "situation" as well.  Recently I read on a different Buddhist forum all kinds of wrong information being thrown about the Kadam Emanation scripture, saying it was somehow "controversial", etc.  Then it was brought it up was mixed up with "Dholgyal", so it can't be trusted. 
Some of the moderators of the eSangha have openly proclaimed that they have actively worked against the NKT and other DS-oriented organizations for years (and that was about 4 years ago). So do not expect them to show any symphathy...

The sad thing is, that their excuse is that they are "supporting the wishes of HH Sakya Trizin and the Rime-hopes of HHDL.(If the future of the Sakya lineage is in the hands of people like those, then all we have is just another destroyed lineage... So sad, so sad.)