Author Topic: Is this a bit extreme?  (Read 10632 times)

cheyenne

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Is this a bit extreme?
« on: May 06, 2008, 01:06:11 PM »
Same text - just change some words………………….

March 10th, 1996

During annual teachings at the Thekchen Choeling Temple in Dharamsala, the Dalai Lama imposes a ban on worshipping Dorje Shugden, ‘Whether outside of Tibet or within Tibet, this deity is discordant with our government and all our deities; this is serious in the context of the common cause of Tibet. It will be good if you comply (with what we are saying) without our having to resort to this last step. It will be the last resort if we have to knock on your doors (if you do notfollow this advice).’

How does this sound.

Adolf Hitler imposes a ban on worshipping Judaism, ‘Whether outside of Germany or within Germany, this religion is discordant with our Nazi government and our entire Arian race; this is serious in the context of the common cause of Germany. It will be good if you comply (with what we are saying) without our having to resort to this final solution. It will be the final solution if we have to knock on your doors (if you do not follow this advice).’

April 27th-30th, 1996

This is a period of great tension in the monasteries of South India. There is fighting among monks from Ganden and Drepung. At Ganden Jangtse monastery, a monk is beaten by supporters of the ban and has to be hospitalized. Windows of the houses of prominent Shugden worshippers are smashed.

May 1st, 1996 Government Officials proclaim a decree of ban under armed police protection at Ganden Monastery in Mundgod, South India.

How does this sound.

This is a period of great tension in the Germany. There is fighting among residents and Jews in Munich. At a location in Munich, a Jew is beaten by supporters of the Nazis and has to be hospitalized. Windows of the houses of prominent Jew are smashed.

Government Officials proclaim a decree of ban under armed police protection at a Synagogue in Munich

May 24th, 1996

The Dorje Shugden Society receives a letter dated May 22nd, 1996 under the name of Kalon Sonam Topgyal, announcing that now there will be a complete ban on Shugden. The ban emphasizes that ‘. . . concepts like democracy and freedom of religion are empty when it concerns the well-being of H.H. the Dalai Lama and the common cause of Tibet.

How does this sound.

The Jewish board of deputies receives a letter dated May 22nd, 1938 under the name of Heinrich Himmler, announcing that now there will be a complete ban on Jews. The ban emphasizes that ‘. . . concepts like democracy and freedom of religion are empty when it concerns the well-being of Adolf Hitler and the common cause of the Nazi Party and Germany.
 
July 1996

A Tibetan Democratic draft constitution for a future free Tibet is amended to read that no judge or juror can be an adherent of Dorje Shugden.

During the preparation for the Kalachakra initiation in Lahul Spiti, the Dalai Lama’s female oracle Tsering Chenga alleges that some thirty members of Dorje Shugden Society will attack the Dalai Lama during the initiation. Elaborate security measures and searches are taken, but this is shown to be a false prophecy and a false alarm. There is no one from the Dorje Shugden Society present.

How does this sound.

A German draft constitution for a future free Germany is amended to read that no judge or juror can be an adherent of the Jewish faith.

During the preparation for the Munich rally, Heinrich Himmler’s female SS oracle aviatrix Hanna Reitsch alleges that some thirty members of the Jewish Society will attack Adolf Hitler during the Rally. Elaborate security measures and searches are taken, but this is shown to be a false prophecy and a false alarm. There is no one from the Jewish Society present.

January 13th, 1999

The Dalai Lama pays a visit to Trijang Labrang, the residence of His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche (1900-1981), his tutor.

At a gathering of the Labrang’s monks, the Dalai Lama says:

‘…during my visit to Switzerland, Lobsang asked that the current Choktul Rinpoche be allowed to worship Dorje Shugden like his predecessor, without a decision through the dough ball divination. He also told me that the ban on Shugden worship is causing widespread suffering to everyone, and that it may be revoked.

This is ridiculous talk.

My reason for banning the Protector is in the interest of Tibetan’s politics and religion, as well as for the Gelug tradition. In our face-to-face meeting, I also told Rinpoche to understand that we may be meeting each other for the last time.’

During this private audience with the Dalai Lama, Ven. Choezed-la, the eldest official at Trijang Labrang, humbly points out that the religious ban has created an unprecedented atmosphere of hostility against both Shartse monastery and against Trijang Labrang, which is not very different from the atmosphere of the Cultural Revolution in Tibet. He requests that, to lift the suffering within the Tibetan public from this atmosphere, would the Dalai Lama kindly consider revoking the ban.

To this, the Dalai Lama angrily replies, ‘There will be no change in my stand.

I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution.
If they (those who do not accept the ban) do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them.’

How does this sound.

The Fuehrer pays a visit to Ulm, Württemberg, Germany to the former residence of the great Jewish academic Albert Einstein. At a gathering of the Nazi Party, the Fuehrer says:

‘…during my visit to Ulm, Johannes Popitz, asked that the current occupant Max Talmud, a medical student be allowed to worship Judaism like his predecessor, without a decision through the occult divination. He also told me that the ban on Jewish worship is causing widespread suffering to everyone, and that it may be revoked. ……..

This is ridiculous talk.

My reason for banning the Jews is in the interest of German politics and religion, as well as for the Nazi Party. In our face-to-face meeting, I also told Johannes Popitz to understand
that we may be meeting each other for the last time.’

During this private audience with the Fuehrer, and Ernst von Weizsäcker, under-secretary of state at the Foreign Ministry, the eldest official at Ulm, Württemberg, humbly points out that the religious ban has created an unprecedented atmosphere of hostility against both Ulm and against Württemberg, which is not very different from the atmosphere of the French Revolution. He requests that, to lift the suffering within the Jewish public from this atmosphere, would the Fuehrer kindly consider revoking the ban.

To this, the Fuehrer angrily replies, ‘There will be no change in my stand.

I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the French Revolution.
If they (those who do not accept the ban) do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them.’
 
More discrimination planned in lay communities around the world

Tibetan government's plan to take the ban into lay communities

There was held a meeting at the Tibetan local assembly. The heads of Camp no 5 and 9 suggested: the monasteries have been cleaned. The campaign of taking oath (not worshipping Shugden) must be carried out among lay public. The local head, Thupten, said: we should not in hurry now. There is a second plan. Yesterday, when I met Samdhong Rinpoche in Banglore (Karnataka State), he told me: If the monasteries are cleaned, the campaign of taking oath of not worshipping Shugden will be conducted throughout India, Nepal and Bhutan. After that, in abroad, and then gradually in Tibet.

April 2008

More discrimination planned in Jewish communities around Germany
 
The Nazi government's plan to take the ban into German Cities

 There was held a meeting at the Nazi Party local assembly. The heads of Major cities suggested: the cities have been cleaned. The campaign of taking oath (not associating with Jews) must be carried out among German public. The local head, Guiltier, said: we should not be in a hurry now. There is a second plan. Yesterday, when I met Nazi Leaders in Munich, They told me: If the cities are cleaned, the campaign of taking oath of not associating with Jews will be conducted throughout Germany, France and German occupied countries. After that, in abroad, and then gradually in the world.

April 1938


a friend

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2008, 03:48:52 PM »
Dear Cheyenne,

I am a little bit lost here.

If you could clarify?

1- Would you be so kind as to put quote marks or some color into those words you are quoting verbatim, exactly as they appear to have been pronounced? It sounds eerie and incredible that the DL and the German Fuerer would have pronounced the exact same words. Exactitude is of the essence.

2- I would be very cautions with the comparisons.
You might hurt other people's feelings with them.
What happened to the Jews in Europe in the thirties and forties is incomparable with the present situation  in numbers and amount of suffering experienced. So the Jewish community might feel offended by this. And with good reason.

3- The use of the Cultural Revolution comparison is perfectly correct, particularly if the Dalai Lama himself used it.

So, if you could re-formulate your writing it would be useful and we could talk further.

Thank you so much.

cheyenne

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2008, 04:23:02 PM »
Dear A Friend,

The changed text is; the bits starting with "how does this sound"

The first half is 'actual text' as quoted, as from the Dalai Lama
The second bit is the same text, with words changed so, it is 'as if' it could have been said by the Nazi's.

The first bit is fact the second bit is fiction.

What I am trying to do here is show that the Nazis could have said these things in exactly the same way.
They stared the persecution of the Jews in just this way and finished by exterminating 6 million Jews

I am not suggesting the Dalai Lama would do this, hence the title of the thread "Is this a bit extreme"?

I am making comparisons between what has been said and how this could have been said by the Nazis.

The point is if people had acted against the Nazis with hindsite, maybe 6 million Jews might not have been exterminated.

History does sometimes have a tendency to repeat itself.

Or so it appears to deluded mind.


a friend

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2008, 05:07:27 PM »
Dear Cheyenne,

I agree that history, if not understood and remembered, tends to repeat itself. Rather, we human beings tend to repeat the same mistakes time and again.
 
Nevertheless, the close comparison with the Nazi/Jews situation continues to seem to me dangerous. People who have suffered are very sensitive. They tend to not like that their big suffering be compared to some lesser one, and thus, diminishing its magnitude in the perception of others.

What would be useful would be to state clearly, out of that context, all the words from the DL's side when he talks about the ban. With quote marks clear, and the source, like that. What you recount there as being the dialogue in Trijang Labdang is really huge, it does not need to be compared, it shines by itself. So could you please do that, isolate all those quotations about the ban and others you might remember and post them separately?

Thank you, it's a big help.

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2008, 06:27:38 PM »
Question: Is this a bit extreme?

Answer: YES IT IS
____________________________

To the extent that HHDL and his governmet behaves badly, it should be enough to us to just expose that. There is no need to compare the actions of TGIE to anything else.

The "enemy" has been using emotive language, and that alone, so it is up to us to use factual and logical language. Otherwise, we will just behave the same. And therefore open the doors of hell.
____________________________

PS: Has anyone read the book by the Polish psychologist Andrew M. Lobaczewski where he traces the development of what he calls a "macro-social evil"?

He talks about how the evil provided by a few Psychopaths descendes upon the societies (in his case the CCCP and the Communist Poland) in a most peculiar fashion: First, you need a hysterical and emotive population, incapable of rational discussion or the use of the common sense, and then you need............ well, uh, just a couple of Psychopaths. And there it is!!! The Hell of the KaliYuga.

stibo

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2008, 06:50:12 PM »
I agree with what A Friend say about referencing the nazis. This part of our history is unique by its savagery and its cynicism, and cannot be invoqued anytime one want to label an opponent.

I have had the same feeling when I read the following passage in Ursula Bernis study:
Returning to the Dorje Shugden issue as example, how could anyone possibly trump the
following statement by the Dalai Lama concerning Buddhists who rely on Dorje Shugden made
in Germany in May 1998, "Whoever fights against the Shugden spirit defends religious freedom.
I compare this definitely to the Nazis in Germany.  Whoever fights them, defends human rights,
since the freedom of Nazis is not freedom." (Ludwig Klemens, Esotera, May 1998, p. 82)



cheyenne

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2008, 09:42:16 PM »
Dear A Friend (and others),

Yes it may seem extreme that is why I asked the question...

It is good for our minds of refuge & renunciation to meditate on the hell realms, including resembling hells.

------------
I agree that history, if not understood and remembered, tends to repeat itself. Rather, we human beings tend to repeat the same mistakes time and again.
 
Nevertheless, the close comparison with the Nazi/Jews situation continues to seem to me dangerous. People who have suffered are very sensitive. They tend to not like that their big suffering be compared to some lesser one, and thus, diminishing its magnitude in the perception of others.

------------

I don't think the Jews would want us to forget the holocaust, lest we forget, the more we prevent it from happening again.

There are many Holocaust memorials around the world that may be visited, to remind us of the suffering of the Jews, such as in 'Auschwitz', 'Berlin' and in Isreal itself. Just try googleing 'holocaust memorial' ,

I did the comparison to show how the seeds sown by such language can grow, if not checked, into the hell like horrors experienced by the victims of the Holocaust.

I think this is also the point of the comments by Ursula Bernis .

To the extent that HHDL and his governmet behaves badly, it should be enough to us to just expose that. There is no need to compare the actions of TGIE to anything else.

The "enemy" has been using emotive language, and that alone, so it is up to us to use factual and logical language. Otherwise, we will just behave the same. And therefore open the doors of hell.


Yes, but if we don't do something, and highlight the possibility of the effects that could ripen, as a result of these unfortuante actions, then yes it could, in theory, be a case of history repeating itself.

This is from the perspective of an ordinary samsaric mind of course.
The real course, for a disciple of Je Tsongkhapa, is to train in realisations on the three principle aspects of the path and the two Tantric stages,  then we may develop the power to make a real difference to our perception of our world and all living beings in the process.

Until then we must do what we can, with Bodhichita motivation..

I am refering mainly to myself , I can't speak for others here, I don't know others minds.

What would be useful would be to state clearly, out of that context, all the words from the DL's side when he talks about the ban. With quote marks clear, and the source, like that. What you recount there as being the dialogue in Trijang Labdang is really huge, it does not need to be compared, it shines by itself. So could you please do that, isolate all those quotations about the ban and others you might remember and post them separately?

The quotes that I used, for words from the DL's side when he talks about the ban, (above)  came from http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/ from the home page left hand side under the heading "Chronicle of events"




Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2008, 10:00:46 PM »
Dear Cheyenne

I did not use the word HELL in a Buddhist sense. I meant a real life hellish system of society, where the life is hellish. Like, say, any Communist State. Or the Tibetan Exile Society.

And the first step towards something like that is that people cease to argue on the basis of reason, and "fall" into an emotive speech. (A society that shuns speech because it is deemed "offensive", "racist", "against the Leader", or whatever, is a society, that is psychodynamically already doomed... For no hysterical or emotive society has ever been able to stand against the Evil that Men Do, against the evil that the very men who are part of that very society, will inevitably do.)

So just stay away. And do not take part.

 ;D

cheyenne

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 10:17:52 PM »
Dear Zhalmed Pawo

I did say:

Until then we must do what we can, with Bodhichita motivation..

you say:

So just stay away. And do not take part.

Take part in what? are you saying this should not be debated?

I am fully engaged and will be taking part in demonstrations.

Actions of body, speech and mind, hopefully with Bodhichita motivation
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 12:03:14 PM by cheyenne »

cheyenne

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2008, 10:26:09 PM »
Just to clarify, for A Friend, the text in blue is quote from http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

The text in green is fiction made up by me using the text in blue and changing some words.

Same text - just change some words………………….

March 10th, 1996

During annual teachings at the Thekchen Choeling Temple in Dharamsala, the Dalai Lama imposes a ban on worshipping Dorje Shugden, ‘Whether outside of Tibet or within Tibet, this deity is discordant with our government and all our deities; this is serious in the context of the common cause of Tibet. It will be good if you comply (with what we are saying) without our having to resort to this last step. It will be the last resort if we have to knock on your doors (if you do not follow this advice).’


How bad does this sound.

Adolf Hitler imposes a ban on worshipping Judaism, ‘Whether outside of Germany or within Germany, this religion is discordant with our Nazi government and our entire Arian race; this is serious in the context of the common cause of Germany. It will be good if you comply (with what we are saying) without our having to resort to this final solution. It will be the final solution if we have to knock on your doors (if you do not follow this advice).’


April 27th-30th, 1996

This is a period of great tension in the monasteries of South India. There is fighting among monks from Ganden and Drepung. At Ganden Jangtse monastery, a monk is beaten by supporters of the ban and has to be hospitalized. Windows of the houses of prominent Shugden worshippers are smashed.

May 1st, 1996 Government Officials proclaim a decree of ban under armed police protection at Ganden Monastery in Mundgod, South India.


How bad does this sound.

This is a period of great tension in the Germany. There is fighting among residents and Jews in Munich. At a location in Munich, a Jew is beaten by supporters of the Nazis and has to be hospitalized. Windows of the houses of prominent Jew are smashed.

Government Officials proclaim a decree of ban under armed police protection at a Synagogue in Munich


May 24th, 1996

The Dorje Shugden Society receives a letter dated May 22nd, 1996 under the name of Kalon Sonam Topgyal, announcing that now there will be a complete ban on Shugden. The ban emphasizes that ‘. . . concepts like democracy and freedom of religion are empty when it concerns the well-being of H.H. the Dalai Lama and the common cause of Tibet.


How bad does this sound.

The Jewish board of deputies receives a letter dated May 22nd, 1938 under the name of Heinrich Himmler, announcing that now there will be a complete ban on Jews. The ban emphasizes that ‘. . . concepts like democracy and freedom of religion are empty when it concerns the well-being of Adolf Hitler and the common cause of the Nazi Party and Germany.

July 1996

A Tibetan Democratic draft constitution for a future free Tibet is amended to read that no judge or juror can be an adherent of Dorje Shugden.

During the preparation for the Kalachakra initiation in Lahul Spiti, the Dalai Lama’s female oracle Tsering Chenga alleges that some thirty members of Dorje Shugden Society will attack the Dalai Lama during the initiation. Elaborate security measures and searches are taken, but this is shown to be a false prophecy and a false alarm. There is no one from the Dorje Shugden Society present.


How bad does this sound.

A German draft constitution for a future free Germany is amended to read that no judge or juror can be an adherent of the Jewish faith.

During the preparation for the Munich rally, Heinrich Himmler’s female SS oracle aviatrix Hanna Reitsch alleges that some thirty members of the Jewish Society will attack Adolf Hitler during the Rally. Elaborate security measures and searches are taken, but this is shown to be a false prophecy and a false alarm. There is no one from the Jewish Society present.


January 13th, 1999

The Dalai Lama pays a visit to Trijang Labrang, the residence of His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche (1900-1981), his tutor.

At a gathering of the Labrang’s monks, the Dalai Lama says:

‘…during my visit to Switzerland, Lobsang asked that the current Choktul Rinpoche be allowed to worship Dorje Shugden like his predecessor, without a decision through the dough ball divination. He also told me that the ban on Shugden worship is causing widespread suffering to everyone, and that it may be revoked.

This is ridiculous talk.

My reason for banning the Protector is in the interest of Tibetan’s politics and religion, as well as for the Gelug tradition. In our face-to-face meeting, I also told Rinpoche to understand that we may be meeting each other for the last time.’

During this private audience with the Dalai Lama, Ven. Choezed-la, the eldest official at Trijang Labrang, humbly points out that the religious ban has created an unprecedented atmosphere of hostility against both Shartse monastery and against Trijang Labrang, which is not very different from the atmosphere of the Cultural Revolution in Tibet. He requests that, to lift the suffering within the Tibetan public from this atmosphere, would the Dalai Lama kindly consider revoking the ban.

To this, the Dalai Lama angrily replies, ‘There will be no change in my stand.

I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution.
If they (those who do not accept the ban) do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them.’


How bad does this sound.

The Fuehrer pays a visit to Ulm, Württemberg, Germany to the former residence of the great Jewish academic Albert Einstein. At a gathering of the Nazi Party, the Fuehrer says:

‘…during my visit to Ulm, Johannes Popitz, asked that the current occupant Max Talmud, a medical student be allowed to worship Judaism like his predecessor, without a decision through the occult divination. He also told me that the ban on Jewish worship is causing widespread suffering to everyone, and that it may be revoked. ……..

This is ridiculous talk.

My reason for banning the Jews is in the interest of German politics and religion, as well as for the Nazi Party. In our face-to-face meeting, I also told Johannes Popitz to understand
that we may be meeting each other for the last time.’

During this private audience with the Fuehrer, and Ernst von Weizsäcker, under-secretary of state at the Foreign Ministry, the eldest official at Ulm, Württemberg, humbly points out that the religious ban has created an unprecedented atmosphere of hostility against both Ulm and against Württemberg, which is not very different from the atmosphere of the French Revolution. He requests that, to lift the suffering within the Jewish public from this atmosphere, would the Fuehrer kindly consider revoking the ban.

To this, the Fuehrer angrily replies, ‘There will be no change in my stand.

I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the French Revolution.
If they (those who do not accept the ban) do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them.’


More discrimination planned in lay communities around the world

Tibetan government's plan to take the ban into lay communities

There was held a meeting at the Tibetan local assembly. The heads of Camp no 5 and 9 suggested: the monasteries have been cleaned. The campaign of taking oath (not worshipping Shugden) must be carried out among lay public. The local head, Thupten, said: we should not in hurry now. There is a second plan. Yesterday, when I met Samdhong Rinpoche in Banglore (Karnataka State), he told me: If the monasteries are cleaned, the campaign of taking oath of not worshipping Shugden will be conducted throughout India, Nepal and Bhutan. After that, in abroad, and then gradually in Tibet.

April 2008


More discrimination planned in Jewish communities around Germany

How bad does this sound.
 
The Nazi government's plan to take the ban into German Cities

 There was held a meeting at the Nazi Party local assembly. The heads of Major cities suggested: the cities have been cleaned. The campaign of taking oath (not associating with Jews) must be carried out among German public. The local head, Guiltier, said: we should not be in a hurry now. There is a second plan. Yesterday, when I met Nazi Leaders in Munich, They told me: If the cities are cleaned, the campaign of taking oath of not associating with Jews will be conducted throughout Germany, France and German occupied countries. After that, in abroad, and then gradually in the world


I apologise if this text in green offends, I am just trying to show the danger of using innapropriate speech.

Alexis

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2008, 10:50:47 PM »
Cheyene,

Point taken. The form and content are very similiar. Persecution talk is persecution talk is persecution talk.

No disrespect intended to our jewish and israeli brothers.

Your point is in the same spirit as the last video found in the intro page of this website. It's not meant to offend muslims.

a friend

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 11:48:53 PM »
Cheyenne and all

There is something that I think it's not clear in our minds.
We don't need to create much more reasons than the facts themselves to express our side of this matter.
Our problem is that almost nobody READS or LISTENS to what we have to say.

In this respect the demonstrations are opening the door for us to be heard, not only during the time the people are in the streets but mainly right after. I think we should send letters THE DAY AFTER a demo, when newspaper editors are going to be already alerted by the demo.

In this context, your fictitious parallel is ok for the website, but it's an exageration if you want to use it outside, to be sent to media. People need only to know the facts and then left to themselves to draw the conclusions. If they ever read what happened they are going to see the bad lineages and the bad futures that await us if we allow the Dalai Lama and the Tibetans that follow him blindly perpetrate their discrimination against their people without the world even seeing it.

I still think the parallel so obviously stated by your fictitious paragraphs can be offensive and hurt those who had 6 million destroyed in the gas chambers.

(Cheyenne, could you please look at your messages?).


Alexis

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Re: Is this a bit extreme?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2008, 12:18:05 AM »
Dear All,

What a friend said is very true and I hope all on this forum have the maturity to understand such comparisons of speech acts (as john Searle puts it) are for internal use only. In any case, Cheyene did not imply that being expelled from the monastery was of the same caliber (gravity) as being invited to the gas chamber. I think Cheyene was only comparing similar styles of persecution talk.

We got the point. let's close the matter now.