Author Topic: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE  (Read 10868 times)

Helen

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Dear friends,

As a Western practitioner of Dorje Shugden who, like you, is trying to save our tradition and protect Dorje Shugden practitioners in India and elsewhere, I’m writing to ask for your help.

To make our claims against the Dalai Lama as convincing as possible so that they receive coverage in the media, we need to be able to answer the following questions posed repeatedly by journalists and various skeptics. Although we ourselves know that all this is going on, they need to be convinced through examination of the facts. They will not just take our word for it.

Can you please kindly take any time you may have to answer any of the following questions? Any links to documents etc of course would be most helpful. I know it is a bit tedious to go over the same old stuff when we know it is all going on, but if we could have it all here written down in a place where we can all easily access it, it will be very helpful.

And in other ways, too, these answers will be put to good use.

Thanks xx

1.  Does anyone know how many Dorje Shugden practitioners there are in total worldwide? How many are there in exile? How many are there in Tibet? And how many Tibetans in exile are there altogether? These are useful statistics to put the situation in context.

2. We say that the Dalai Lama has banned the practice. Can someone put here a reference to the actual words or legal verbiage instituting the ban? What was the *legal status* of the ban?  Was it purely a religious edict or did it have the force of law?  Clarification is needed, especially with regards the status of Tibetans within the countries where they live. 

3. The Dalai Lama continues to enforce the ban by means of the Tibetan Government in Exile and all other Tibetan Exile associations such as the Tibetan Youth Congress and the Tibetan Women’s Association. Can anyone say clearly here what are the penalties of violating the ban?  Were these penalties codified (i.e. a part of law)?  Were they implied but not stated?  Were they enforced, and by whom? Is it discrimination by individuals or institutionalized discrimination and do we have proof? (We need to answer this as journalists will continue to say that you cannot hold the Dalai Lama responsible for the actions of every overzealous person who acts on their own initiative even though he believes he is acting in accordance with the Dalai Lama's wishes.  This point will come up again and again.)

4. What is the status of the ban today?  Some skeptics are saying that it is no longer a strict ban, and in fact there was some sort of vote?  Clarification is needed here.

5. Please give specific examples of each of the following if you can, including dates, places, people where possible, official documents that attempt to legitimatize the actions, anecdotal accounts from individuals using their own words etc.  We want as many facts as possible.

(1)   Monks and nuns unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if they do not stop the practice
(2)   Thousands of Tibetan lay Shugden practitioners are being forced to abandon the practice or lose the support of their government and face orchestrated public humiliation and intimidation
(3)   People who refuse to renounce the practice are losing their jobs, their children are being expelled from schools, and their travel papers, which require prior authorization from the Tibetan Government in Exile, are not being endorsed
(4)   Statues have been smashed, temples destroyed, books burned, practitioner’s houses attacked, and even death threats issued

6. In January 2008, the Dalai Lama issued a new proclamation requiring all Tibetans to sign a declaration forsaking the practice forever and promising not to associate in any way – spiritually, financially, socially or materially – with anyone who does not sign. Can someone provide here the proclamation and declaration form or any other useful documentation?

7. Also, did the Dalai Lama order the expulsions or did someone else do it?  Does the Dalai Lama (or whomever is responsible) have a legal authority to expel the monks/nuns? 
(A skeptic who looks at the expulsions may think "Well, it's too bad they were expelled, but as the spiritual leader doesn't the Dalai Lama have the right to do this?  If he were a CEO of a corporation, this would be like him laying off employees that are doing things contrary to the mission of the company.  Unfortunate if you are the one laid off, but it does not count as persecution.")

8. Do you have anecdotal or other evidence of Sangha being expelled from their monasteries and nunneries, forbidden to associate with other Tibetans, even to eat with or shop from them, and left to fend for themselves without any support.

9. Is the Dalai Lama depriving Tibetans in exile of the right to become Indian citizens and insisted that they all remain subject to his rule? Journalists ask whether those being persecuted can simply stop the problem by becoming Indian citizens.

10. Which Western Buddhist Centers with a connection to the Dalai Lama have been signing declarations promising not to engage in the Shugden practice or to allow into their Center anyone who does? Does anyone have any anecdotal or other evidence of this or of the insults and slander spread about Dorje Shugden practitioners in the West?

We know all this is happening, but can we work together to get all our facts in one place. Truly appreciated, thank you. I have tried to summarize the main points into ten questions, but if you have more questions and answers, of course include them.



Alexis

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Re: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2008, 03:51:28 AM »
Helen,

Sorry for a quick post to you extensive questions, but you can find a huge amount of information concerning your questions in previous post (going back to december or before).

More than half of you questions already have been answered if you can find the time to brows through the previous posts. If you have any remaining perticuliar questions after that, it will be easy for us to help you with the specifics.

If you have difficulty finding your info in the posts, I will help you get directed.

Helen

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Re: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2008, 04:01:19 AM »
Thank you, that'd be helpful if you could direct me to the relevant posts so I could get started. I don't know my way around this forum very well yet.

Heartspoon

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Re: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2008, 04:26:13 AM »
"On May 8th, 1996 in a public address in Dharamsala (on video tape), the Dalai Lama says, "It has been twenty years since I first mentioned the Dorje Shugden public restriction (ngas dam.bsdrags byed..pa.yin). Also, in an address on May 5, 1996, the Dalai Lama say, "It may have been about ten years ago. While giving a lam.rim teaching at Drepung, I once gave my reasons for issuing the ban."

"Select Addresses of His Holiness the Dalai Lama on the Issue of Propitiating Protector Deities, Sherig Parkhang, Dharamsala, July 10, 1996, p. 175; and "In this way came the reasons, on account of which I have issued the ban (Tibetan: dam.bsgrags) in recent times."

Ursula Bernis research

During the 5th session of the Tibetan Parliament in Exile, which began the 4th March 2008, the Speaker, Karma Chophel, delivered the opening adress and according to the official website of the Central Tibetan Administration said:

He lauded the bold initiative of Tibetan monastic communities in their resolve to end the Dolgyal (Shugden) worship, following the long life offering to His Holiness the Dalai Lama held at Drepung monastery in south India in February.

This session will present motions to strengthen the present resolution adopted by the TPiE against the propitiation of Shugden, he added.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 04:38:30 AM by Heartspoon »

a friend

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QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- THE BAN
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2008, 03:33:09 AM »
Quote
3. The Dalai Lama continues to enforce the ban by means of the Tibetan Government in Exile and all other Tibetan Exile associations such as the Tibetan Youth Congress and the Tibetan Women’s Association. Can anyone say clearly here what are the penalties of violating the ban?  Were these penalties codified (i.e. a part of law)?  Were they implied but not stated?  Were they enforced, and by whom? Is it discrimination by individuals or institutionalized discrimination and do we have proof? (We need to answer this as journalists will continue to say that you cannot hold the Dalai Lama responsible for the actions of every overzealous person who acts on their own initiative even though he believes he is acting in accordance with the Dalai Lama's wishes.  This point will come up again and again.)


Of course there was and there is a ban. They retrieved it from the documents of the Exile Government but the ban is there and its application is escalating to a full blown barbaric discrimination. TODAY the entire Tibetan population is being forced to have an Identity Card, the YELLOW CARD, proving that every individual took the oath of NOT worshipping Dorje Shugden, and the oath that they are NOT having any relationship whatsoever with Dorje Shugden practitioners. This is an organized and institutionalized all encompassing RELIGIOUS SEGREGATION.
Helen please, read here in this Forum:
http://dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=276.msg1433#msg1433
at least the subtitle SEGREGATION.

If you go to the Shugdensociety website, in the chapter OUtcast society you can see the actual Yellow Card for the monks.
http://www.shugdensociety.info/outcastSociety.html

No matter what, as soon as journalists start being inquisitive they are going to make the yellow card disappear and they are going to say that it never existed. Like they dare do with the ban.

So you can say legitimately that the ban does exist and is being enforced.

If you want to understand in a deeper way how the ban works, go to again to the shugdensociety website and look for Dr. Ursula Bernis book. Take your time. You will learn a lot.

a friend

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QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- Is the Dalai Lama doing it or others?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2008, 03:50:42 AM »
Quote
7. Also, did the Dalai Lama order the expulsions or did someone else do it?  Does the Dalai Lama (or whomever is responsible) have a legal authority to expel the monks/nuns? 
(A skeptic who looks at the expulsions may think "Well, it's too bad they were expelled, but as the spiritual leader doesn't the Dalai Lama have the right to do this?  If he were a CEO of a corporation, this would be like him laying off employees that are doing things contrary to the mission of the company.  Unfortunate if you are the one laid off, but it does not count as persecution.")

Helen, you have to tell these people that everything going on now is the direct responsibility of the Dalai Lama. He has been campaigning personally to push the abbots and monks to do the referendum and take the double oath. He did this in person in Southern India last January. Not to count the number of times he goes on and on preaching against practitioners in his teachings everywhere.

Also, any attack on the human rights of practitioners, and particularly those coming from the Tibetan lay people is the Dalai Lama's responsibility, because he is the one who chose the necessary words to push these people to become the tormentors of their fellow Tibetans:

1-He pushed people to believe that the worshipping of the Protector endangered the life of the Dalai Lama.
2-He pushed people to believe that it harmed the cause of Tibet.
3-He said that Protector's practitioners assasinated three monks in Dharamsala..
4-He said that Protector's practitioners were working for the Chinese in order to harm the cause of Tibet.

These four calumnies have been repeated with all the shades of tone and meaning imaginable. It's called the system of the big lie: repeat a lie enough number of times and people will believe it. Go read the reports from journalists trying to fill in some information from what they remember of the issue: they always come up with one or more of those lies.

I think that question is answered. But don't believe me. Investigate.

a friend

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QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- Which Buddhist Centers
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2008, 04:19:29 AM »
You ask which Western Buddhist Centers have been signing. It's the Lama Zopa centers, the FPMT. Probably others too, but they are prominent.



From The FPMT Handbook:

All those who offer service or teach in FPMT centers are committed to follow the advice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. As an example, His Holiness has prohibited the practice of the so-called protector, Do Gyel (Shugden), so teachers or others affiliated with the FPMT should not engage in this practice.

Excerpt from a letter to Lozang Jinpa, private secretary to His Holiness the Dalai Lama - April 2001:

"The FPMT Board of Directors has just made a policy regarding the practice of Shugden.
FPMT will not invite anyone who practices this as a resident teacher or a visiting teacher. Of course sometimes it is difficult to say if someone is hiding the practice. Can you please inform His Holiness of this."


This year, in February, the Dalai Lama sent the Lama Zopa centers the same double question he imposed to the monasteries.
They themselves say: HH has sent a message with two questions. SS ha enviado un comunicado con dos preguntas.
It's presented as a kind of poll but it's the same "referendum" as in the monasteries, 1 question against the Protector, 1 question against the practitioners.



Anyway, let the Kashag speak:
The essence of His Holiness' advice is this: "Propitiating Dolgyal does great harm to the cause of Tibet. It also imperils the life of the Dalai Lama.

Helen, this is the true ban. And the Dalai Lama and his government knew perfectly well that once those words were pronounced there was no retrieving them.

Alexis

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Re: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2008, 04:08:24 AM »
Sorry Helen,

I didn't get to it.

I'll brows through the past threads tomorrow, promised!



Helen

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Re: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2008, 04:29:50 AM »
Thank you. I've been looking every day and with your help, and the help I've already received here from A Friend, and a little more digging around of my own, I plan to be able to get those ten questions answered all in one place and put to good use.  :)


Helen

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Re: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2008, 04:31:44 AM »
Also thanks to Trinlay Kelsang and Heartspoon. Some of that material is already ensconced on Wikipedia.

Helen

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Re: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2008, 12:44:31 AM »
dear Friend,

I am going through your narrative and it is very helpful, thank you.

I just read this bit, it is terrible. I was at that demonstration too and met and very much appreciated having the Tibetan practitioners join us. I knew they took a risk but this is a quick reprisal. Do you have proof of this somehow that a journalist would be able to say "aha!"? What is the monk's name?

"Just some days ago there was a demonstration against the Dalai Lama's actions at Colgate University. One of the monks who attended was recognized by members of the American Tibetan community as the brother of a restaurant's owner. The segregation that pleases the Dalai Lama was swiftly applied and people stopped attending that restaurant. This business is going to close soon."

Thanks xx

a friend

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Re: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2008, 02:49:05 AM »
Helen, do you understand what you are asking me?

Only thing I can tell you is that this is a true story. I can't put them in danger of more abuse. Anyway, I don't think they would give permission to give their family name, and I understand why.

You can answer exactly that to the journalists: that people don't give their names because they fear abuse. They fear for themselves and their relatives, their children.

Yeah, all of this is like a nightmare.

Alexis

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Re: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2008, 03:17:57 AM »
Helen,

I the first place you should you if you havn't already went is the Dorje Shugden Society in Delhi's website:

http://www.shugdensociety.info/

They have some of the Ban's documents such as the swearing (oath) documents etc. they also have exacts wording of the Dalai-Lama and chronology. This is a must see.

Try also this one from Kundeling Rimpoche, one of the most vocal opponent of the DL. Scroll down the page and get all the info:

http://www.sumatiarya.nl/



On this forum

On this important thread you have the story of monks being excomunicated with pictures, etc. Very good and informative, also a must see:

http://dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=238.0

This is another informative one about recent events in the south:

http://dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=237.0

This one contains the recent statement of the Kashag (tibetan cabinet) about DS:

http://dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=193.0

This one has Indian newspaper front page covering the Ban:

http://dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=167.0

On this recent thread you have what the state oracle told the DL:

http://dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=251.0


With this I think you got a few days' worth of research (reading) material. If you still have unanswered questions after that, I'm sure you will find a great many forumists ready to help here!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 03:39:54 AM by Alexis »

Alexis

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Re: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2008, 03:38:53 AM »
Please also do check Ursula Bernis's research paper available on the DSS's website cited up there.

http://www.shugdensociety.info/pdfs/BernisResearch.pdf

Helen

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Re: TEN QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS -- PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ANSWER THESE
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2008, 03:52:32 AM »
Thank you Alexis. There is plenty there to keep me up at night!  ;)