Author Topic: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?  (Read 13776 times)

Admin

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Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« on: October 25, 2012, 10:01:14 AM »
We wanted to share this bit of good news with everyone. Seems our posts are doing quite well on the Dorje Shugden Facebook Fanpage! We will be tracking the likes, shares and comments of that Facebook post on this thread here, so keep checking back!

25 October
  • 9,422 people like this
  • 547 shares
  • 290 comments

29 October
  • 11,798 people like this
  • 648 shares
  • 362 comments

3 November
  • 19,046 people like this
  • 534 shares
  • 841 comments

11 November
  • 24,109 people like this
  • 988 shares
  • 680 comments

22 November
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  • 989 shares
  • 671 comments

1 December
  • 26,336 people like this
  • 1,070 shares
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To read the article for yourself, click here:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/will-the-karmapa-save-dorje-shugden/

To leave your comments, click here:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=444324212275741&set=a.333716930003137.72762.124479407593558&type=1&relevant_count=1


Screenshot #1
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/Karmapa.jpg

Screenshot #2
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 10:06:40 AM by Admin »

WisdomBeing

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2012, 03:32:27 PM »
It is amazing that there is so much interest in Dorje Shugden’s facebook page. I mean I thought there was a general interest but mostly among monastics who may not have access to the internet but here I see there is a humungous number of likes and comments on this one thread! Dorje Shugden is obviously a topic which interests people, even if some may not agree, at least there are more people who know about Dorje Shugden and via this website (as well as the facebook), I hope that many more people will see the other side to the controversy and not be so quick to judge without knowing the facts. Well done to the admin of this site and the facebook page for creating increasing awareness!
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

yontenjamyang

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2012, 03:50:07 PM »
Kate Walker, The ban has done the Dorje Shugden practice more favors then harm. Certainly I do not wish for the suffering of practitioners especially those in the Tibetan communities and monasteries in India but perhaps this is the necessary "evil". The Dalai Lama is enlightened. His actions are always correct including what we perceive as bad. So to argue back and forth shows our ignorance. I think we should always look at the long term results and not only the short term suffering which we are quick to judge.

So in this case both the Dalai Lama and the protector are Buddhas and are correct. Go figure this out and we are halfway there to being enlightened ourselves. That is what I call skillful means of the Buddhas.

Galen

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2012, 04:32:23 PM »
The ban was imposed by the Dalai Lama and has caused a split in the Tibetan community not only in Tibet but also worldwide. And when and if the Dalai Lama passes away, from the looks of it, he will pass the throne of Tibet's spiritual head to the Karmapa as the Dalai Lama has been promoting him in his events. So, it seems likely that the Karmapa will take over.

If the Karmapa takes over and by then the Dalai Lama has not lifted the ban, then what I think is that the Karmapa will allow Dorje Shugden practitioners to practice freely. This is because one of the reasons the Dalai Lama states is that practitioners of DS will shorten his life. With the passing of the Dalai Lama, this statement does not hold water anymore. So, the Karmapa will allow DS to be practiced freely and the ban fizzle out.

Furthermore, the Dalai Lama himself proclaim that he will not come back in another incarnation, so the Karmapa will be the best candidate to lead Tibetan Buddhism. Maybe another choice candidate to lead Tibetan Buddhism is the Panchen Lama. The Panchen Lama practices DS openly and definitely will not hold on to the ban. And probably the first thing he will do when he steps on as head of Buddhism is to lift the DS ban! And he has the support of the Chinese government. With this, definitely DS will grow even bigger than it is now.




Ensapa

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 09:03:20 AM »
The line of Karmapas and the line of Trijang Rinpoches have always been very close with each other and the previous incarnations of Trijang Rinpoche and the Karmapa always visit each other. In fact, Trijang Rinpoche even incarnated as one of the Karmapas and they swapped places for a lifetime, which is why if you look at Trijang Rinpoche's past life thangka, one of them is the Karmapa Mikyo Dorje. Also, the 16th Karmapa has famously been extremely furious at the statue of Dorje Drollo standing on Dorje Shugden and prophesied that the monastery will regret their actions and take up the practice of Dorje Shugden one day. The only question now is, which Karmapa will take over? I'd place my bets on the karmapa that seeks out for Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche.

vajratruth

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2012, 03:13:23 PM »

If the Karmapa takes over and by then the Dalai Lama has not lifted the ban, then what I think is that the Karmapa will allow Dorje Shugden practitioners to practice freely. This is because one of the reasons the Dalai Lama states is that practitioners of DS will shorten his life. With the passing of the Dalai Lama, this statement does not hold water anymore. So, the Karmapa will allow DS to be practiced freely and the ban fizzle out.



There are presently two Karmapas, Ogyen Trinley who is endorsed by the Dalai Lama and has been installed into the most important seat of his lineage, and Thaye Dorje, who was recognized by the Sharmapa as is the tradition within the Kagyu. Thaye Dorje is also the legal and administrative heir to the 16th Karmapa's Trust. The good thing is that neither Karmapas have taken a position on the Dorje Shugden issue. Thaye Dorje has recently mentioned that he values freedom of religion although that statement was not made in reference to Dorje Shugden, it is a positive indication as to where he might stand in relation to the ban. But who knows, the Dalai Lama who is the chief advocate of the ban has also been going the world preaching religious freedom and tolerance.

It appears that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is widely speculated to be the successor of the Dalai Lama and if that does come to being, I don not think he will continue with the Dalai Lama's policy of segregation and marginalization of Shugden practitioners. To do so would be seen as a Kagyu lama suppressing a popular practice of the Gelugpas, which I imagine cannot be very popular and would sound a warning to the heads of the other lineages. Lifting the ban would win the Karmapa quite a bit of support from Shugden practitioners and at the same time, I doubt if there will be any significant repercussions from Shugden opponents because the only basis for their support of the ban is the fear to be seen as opposing the Dalai Lama, nothing more.

Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is also unique in that he is recognized both by the Chinese and the Dalai Lama and in spite of his escape from China, the Chinese Government have not denounced him. The Karmapa Ogyen Trinley therefore holds a special position that could be the common ground for Sino-Tibetan talks. If Ogyen Trinley is expected to return Tibetans to their motherland, he cannot be perpetuating a Shugden policy that he will eventually have to overturn because the Chinese will never agree to a ban imposed by their adversary that will also apply to Chinese citizens.

dsiluvu

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2012, 06:02:29 AM »
Quote
It appears that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is widely speculated to be the successor of the Dalai Lama and if that does come to being, I don not think he will continue with the Dalai Lama's policy of segregation and marginalization of Shugden practitioners. To do so would be seen as a Kagyu lama suppressing a popular practice of the Gelugpas, which I imagine cannot be very popular and would sound a warning to the heads of the other lineages. Lifting the ban would win the Karmapa quite a bit of support from Shugden practitioners and at the same time, I doubt if there will be any significant repercussions from Shugden opponents because the only basis for their support of the ban is the fear to be seen as opposing the Dalai Lama, nothing more.

I do not know if lifting the BAN would be the responsibility of the future successor... and at the moment it is all speculation that it would be the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. I think if anything the BAN should naturally dissolve as it does not even follow the Democratic Constitution and by Law it is ILLEGAL. If it is the Karmapa sitting as spiritual head after HHDL, then naturally not instilling such discrimination would be a "Dharma" approach and that I believe would be an advice given to the people to discourage actions like pasting ugly notices such as Dorje Shugden customers not allowed in to their shops. At least for a start we will see these notices coming down.     

Although I agree with Vajratruth that the basis for most to support the ban is due to fear of HHDL not being in their favour, however I believe they will still be pro-Dalai Lama clicks who will still cause trouble which is inevitable unless the CTA actually put their foot down as it is against the "law" and do something to the perpetrators. That is their job to protect their people!

TIBETAN GOVERNMENT IN EXILE CONSTITUTION

ARTICLE 17. Every Tibetan shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. The right includes freedom to openly believe, practise, worship and observe any religion either alone or in community with others.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA CONSTITUTION



Other wise the fear of Shugdenpas being attack and not able to live in peace will always be there...


dsiluvu

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2012, 06:10:09 AM »
However this is what Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje has to say about it....

Quote
The 17th Karmapa against the ban of Dorje Shugden
Posted by admin on February 6, 2012 in Articles, The Controversy · 1 Comments
In an article in isikkim.com, the 17th Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje implies that he is against the ban of Dorje Shugden, so is his mentor Sharmapa Rinpoche, see the highlighted parts in red below:


Dalai Lama overstepped his authority in Rumtek controversy: Karmapa Thaye Dorje
Source: http://isikkim.com/2012-02-dalai-lama-overstepped-his-authority-in-rumtek-controversy-karmapa-thaye-dorje-05-03/ (Admin: the latest check found that this article has been removed from the original website)

Soumik Dutta
Kalimpong/Gangtok:
February 5, 2012

On the side lines of Sonam Losar, Tamang Buddhist New Year celebrations in Kalimpong, Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje in an exclusive interview to Soumik Datta said that His Holiness the Dalai Lama had advertently or inadvertently over stepped his authority in endorsing Rinpoche Ugyen Trinley.

The Karmapa said that HH the Dalai Lama did so perhaps keeping in mind the interests of the Tiebtan government in exile. The Karmapa also said that he and his mentor the 14th Shamarpa believe that a consensus and a peaceful solution is possible with HH the Dalai Lama also being involved in it.

Talking on the existing controversy regarding the genuineness of Karmapa for Rumtek, HH echoed his mentor the 14th Kunzig Shamarpa in stating that it was politics that had created the entire controversy, spoiling relationships, breaching trust and creating factionalism within the Karma Kagyu lineage in general.

The 14th Shamarpa, reincarnation, Mipham Chokyi Lodro had earlier in an interview to this reporter had said, “Politics should not interfere in religoius matters. Shamarpa said, ”Frankly, the then Sikkim Chief Minister N B Bhandari made a mistake by interfering in religious matters of the Rumtek Monastery. That was the turning point in the history of the selection and reinstatement of the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa. The controversies have since kept on.”

Shamarpa had further said, ”Bhandari had his vested interest in the forcible takeover of the Monastery in August 1993 from me and the other monks of the Karmapa Charitable Trust, who were ousted by sheer force. He was paid a staggering 2.5 million dollars in bribe money through Chen Lu An, a devotee of Tai Situ Rinpoche”.

When asked about the role played by HH the Dalai Lama in the entire episode of the controversy, HH Karmapa Thaye Dorje said, ”The seat of the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa does not need public endorsement or support. Traditionally it has been governed by Kagyu tradition of prediction letters left by Karmapas as to who would be their reincarnations.

Unfortunately, the late 16th Gyalwang Karmapa Rangjung Rigpei Dorje, did not leave such a letter. Rinpoche Tai Situ produced a prediction letter proclaiming Rinpoche Ugyen Trinley as the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa, which my mentor the 14th Kunzig Shamarpa had objected to and asked to undergo a forensic examination for authentication.

However, this was disallowed and subsequently HH Dalai Lama too endorsed Rinpoche Ugyen Trinley Dorje. Since then and the forceful takeover of the Rumtek Monastery, the Karmapa controversy has lived on.”

Does the Dalai Lama have any further role to play in finding an amicable settlement to the more than decade old Karmapa controversy? Karmapa Thaye Dorje smiled in a way high incarnated lamas do and added that Dalai Lama would remain a respectable figure, however, he had advertently or inadvertently over stepped his authority, perhaps in keeping in mind interests of his exile government. Both me and my mentor the 14th Shamarpa believe that a consensus and a peaceful solution is possible with HH the Dalai Lama also being involved in it, added the Karmapa.

Dalai Lama had decreed a ban on the worship of Dorje Shugden amongst his Tibetan followers on 7 March, 1996. Shamarpa, a supporter of religious freedom had opposed HH the Dalai Lama on the issue and he reiterated the stance by saying “Dharma is about thinking for yourself.

It is not about automatically following a teacher in all things, no matter how respected that teacher may be. More than anyone else, Buddhist should respect other people’s rights – their human rights and their religious freedom. I understand when Tibetans feel this way; their livelihood may depend on being on good terms with the Tibetan exile administration in India. Maybe they would lose their job if they questioned the Dalai Lama’s right to choose the Karmapa.”

And which deity to worship or not, this is an unhealthy development in Buddhism, do you endorse the views of your mentor on this issue? The Karmapa smiled in the affirmative.


Earlier, while delivering His spiritual discourse on Sunday, the final event of the three-day long ceremony organized on the auspicious occasion of Sonam Losar, HH stressed on the need to maintain positive approach and mind that is always aimed at the universal well being. He enlightened the devotees saying, “Due to the nature of the individual and collective ignorance, let’s say, in some ways lack of knowing, essentially not knowing the truth, this brings actually all kinds of problems in an individual’s life.

So, when the truth of ignorance is not well known, on such terms, violence and non-violence both come into the picture. From my personal perspective, yes, it is the path of non-violence but basically it is more than that. One has to use certain terminology such as non-violence but basically it is emphasizing what in Buddhism is known as Buddha Nature.

“The youth must realize and understand the importance of true wisdom and compassion, only then can they understand the meaning of dharma. The parents would have to play the role of the real teachers in helping and guiding them”, said 17th Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje in his message to the society.
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http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-17th-karmapa-against-the-ban-of-dorje-shugden/

dsiluvu

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2012, 07:10:26 AM »
Quote
The Karmapa and Dorje Shugden: a historical moment
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/will-the-karmapa-save-dorje-shugden/

Following the leads and hints which the Dalai Lama has been dropping we might well assume that the Karmapa takes over as the next spiritual leader of the Tibetan Buddhist world. How then might we expect him to react to the ban on Dorje Shugden? First, a little history -

Once, the previous incarnation of the Karmapa (the 16th Karmapa Rangjung Rigpe Dorje) was on pilgrimage in Nepal, where he went to the opening of Urgyen Rinpoche’s new Nyingma monastery. After being greeted by the Nepalese King and Queen, the 16th Karmapa entered the monastery and saw a statue of the Nyingma Protector Dorje Drolo stepping on Dorje Shugden. The statue had been modified to depict Dorje Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet.


The image of Dorje Drolo which displeased the 16th Karmapa

After looking at the statue for a while, the 16th Karmapa then pointed his finger towards the statue and asked, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Who is the person who built this statue?” In a room full of abbots and monks, no one stepped forward.

The 16th Karmapa became visibly angry and demanded that the statue be removed. He then gave the following prediction to the Nyingmas at the monastery: “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him”. There were many lamas present at that time who witnessed this event and this incident has also been recorded down in Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche’s sungbum.

So far, in this incarnation, the three separately recognised incarnations of the Karmapa have not been widely known to comment negatively on the practice Dorje Shugden nor to disparage any practitioners of the Shugden. Might he be keeping a deliberately low profile for a time when he does assume power and can do something about the situation?
[/size]

This is an interesting read and also proof that the whole BAN is just another scheme of things manifested by HHDL for an even bigger scheme of things. Now why would the Karmapa make such a statement about Dorje Shugden if Dorje Shugden was a demon?

We all know that Dalai Lama has spoken frequently over the years about the importance of developing a Rime (non-sectarian) lineage... to preserve Tibetan Buddhism as a whole, which is much larger than the preservation of individual sects. Every sect may be thinking of only preserving and protecting the purity of their individual lineages but His Holiness objective is to unite the Tibetans who have a long history of not really getting a long well due to fear of one over taking each other - competition. And because of this it only made sense that perhaps that is why HHDL use Dorje Shugden who became a convenient pawn for achieving this larger picture of a more united Tibetan Buddhist community.

We know, the Gelugpa school has been very prominent and is in a very strong position within the Tibetan Buddhist world. Even the Dalai Lama himself is Gelugpa, with very strong and influential Gelugpa teachers such as Trijang Rinpoche. The prominence of this Gelugpa schools became so strong that the other sects naturally opposed the concept of uniting all sects for they feared the further suppression and dilution of their own sects and the continually growing influence of the strong Gelugpas.

Therefore, in order to water down the strength of the Gelugpa, the Dalai Lama made the most politically astute move to suppress his own sect. The most effective way would have been to target the worship of Dorje Shugden, a practice most closely and exclusively associated with the Gelugpas. Simultaneously, while he ‘put down’ the practice of Shugden, he also worked to groom the Karmapa, of a different sect (the Kagyus), as the next spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism. With this, Tibetan Buddhists would perhaps be more agreeable to the idea of uniting the four schools, thereby achieving the goal of preserving Tibetan Buddhism on a long-term basis. With unity comes preservation.

Hence, at the end of the day it all points to preserving the "Dharma" as a whole. While on one side HHDL is suppressing Dorje Shugden, so it seems, one the other side - China is and has started favouring it.  Once China's faith in Dorje Shugden grows, nothing and no one can say or ban Dorje Shugden. It will be a natural cause for Dorje Shugden practice to spread from the top, China and spread down all over Asia. Hence Dorje Shugden practice and the pure lineage of Gelug will be well preserved any way.

Will the Karmapa be able to achieve this goal of uniting all Tibetans if it is still not achieved after HHDL passes? I think that would be one huge responsibility on His shoulders but the fact that He is not from Gelug gives hope of some thing brighter ;)


Ensapa

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2012, 07:32:29 AM »
Quote
The Karmapa and Dorje Shugden: a historical moment
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/will-the-karmapa-save-dorje-shugden/

Following the leads and hints which the Dalai Lama has been dropping we might well assume that the Karmapa takes over as the next spiritual leader of the Tibetan Buddhist world. How then might we expect him to react to the ban on Dorje Shugden? First, a little history -

Once, the previous incarnation of the Karmapa (the 16th Karmapa Rangjung Rigpe Dorje) was on pilgrimage in Nepal, where he went to the opening of Urgyen Rinpoche’s new Nyingma monastery. After being greeted by the Nepalese King and Queen, the 16th Karmapa entered the monastery and saw a statue of the Nyingma Protector Dorje Drolo stepping on Dorje Shugden. The statue had been modified to depict Dorje Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet.


The image of Dorje Drolo which displeased the 16th Karmapa

After looking at the statue for a while, the 16th Karmapa then pointed his finger towards the statue and asked, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Who is the person who built this statue?” In a room full of abbots and monks, no one stepped forward.

The 16th Karmapa became visibly angry and demanded that the statue be removed. He then gave the following prediction to the Nyingmas at the monastery: “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him”. There were many lamas present at that time who witnessed this event and this incident has also been recorded down in Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche’s sungbum.

So far, in this incarnation, the three separately recognised incarnations of the Karmapa have not been widely known to comment negatively on the practice Dorje Shugden nor to disparage any practitioners of the Shugden. Might he be keeping a deliberately low profile for a time when he does assume power and can do something about the situation?
[/size]

This is an interesting read and also proof that the whole BAN is just another scheme of things manifested by HHDL for an even bigger scheme of things. Now why would the Karmapa make such a statement about Dorje Shugden if Dorje Shugden was a demon?

We all know that Dalai Lama has spoken frequently over the years about the importance of developing a Rime (non-sectarian) lineage... to preserve Tibetan Buddhism as a whole, which is much larger than the preservation of individual sects. Every sect may be thinking of only preserving and protecting the purity of their individual lineages but His Holiness objective is to unite the Tibetans who have a long history of not really getting a long well due to fear of one over taking each other - competition. And because of this it only made sense that perhaps that is why HHDL use Dorje Shugden who became a convenient pawn for achieving this larger picture of a more united Tibetan Buddhist community.

We know, the Gelugpa school has been very prominent and is in a very strong position within the Tibetan Buddhist world. Even the Dalai Lama himself is Gelugpa, with very strong and influential Gelugpa teachers such as Trijang Rinpoche. The prominence of this Gelugpa schools became so strong that the other sects naturally opposed the concept of uniting all sects for they feared the further suppression and dilution of their own sects and the continually growing influence of the strong Gelugpas.

Therefore, in order to water down the strength of the Gelugpa, the Dalai Lama made the most politically astute move to suppress his own sect. The most effective way would have been to target the worship of Dorje Shugden, a practice most closely and exclusively associated with the Gelugpas. Simultaneously, while he ‘put down’ the practice of Shugden, he also worked to groom the Karmapa, of a different sect (the Kagyus), as the next spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism. With this, Tibetan Buddhists would perhaps be more agreeable to the idea of uniting the four schools, thereby achieving the goal of preserving Tibetan Buddhism on a long-term basis. With unity comes preservation.

Hence, at the end of the day it all points to preserving the "Dharma" as a whole. While on one side HHDL is suppressing Dorje Shugden, so it seems, one the other side - China is and has started favouring it.  Once China's faith in Dorje Shugden grows, nothing and no one can say or ban Dorje Shugden. It will be a natural cause for Dorje Shugden practice to spread from the top, China and spread down all over Asia. Hence Dorje Shugden practice and the pure lineage of Gelug will be well preserved any way.

Will the Karmapa be able to achieve this goal of uniting all Tibetans if it is still not achieved after HHDL passes? I think that would be one huge responsibility on His shoulders but the fact that He is not from Gelug gives hope of some thing brighter ;)


It's very clear that the 'right' Karmapa candidate (should the need arise for people to choose 'just one' candidate) will be the one that will be Dorje Shugden friendly, and Trijang Rinpoche friendly. The previous Karmapa was also very close with the previous Trijang Rinpoche and they visit each other often. Perhaps when that time comes, the 17th Karmapa will command that particular temple to pray to Dorje Shugden to avert certain disasters that may happen? And the prophecy comes true? But one thing for sure is that the said statue still remains and has not been removed yet. An accumulation of not so good things to come for that monastery.....

vajratruth

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2012, 06:42:12 PM »

We know, the Gelugpa school has been very prominent and is in a very strong position within the Tibetan Buddhist world. Even the Dalai Lama himself is Gelugpa, with very strong and influential Gelugpa teachers such as Trijang Rinpoche. The prominence of this Gelugpa schools became so strong that the other sects naturally opposed the concept of uniting all sects for they feared the further suppression and dilution of their own sects and the continually growing influence of the strong Gelugpas.

Therefore, in order to water down the strength of the Gelugpa, the Dalai Lama made the most politically astute move to suppress his own sect. The most effective way would have been to target the worship of Dorje Shugden, a practice most closely and exclusively associated with the Gelugpas. Simultaneously, while he ‘put down’ the practice of Shugden, he also worked to groom the Karmapa, of a different sect (the Kagyus), as the next spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism. With this, Tibetan Buddhists would perhaps be more agreeable to the idea of uniting the four schools, thereby achieving the goal of preserving Tibetan Buddhism on a long-term basis. With unity comes preservation.



Thank you for this analysis dsiluvu. There is a theory that has been proffered to explain the Dalai Lama's ban of Dorje Shugden. Again, the Dalai Lama does not believe that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit. He never did. His Holiness knows that the contrary is true. According to the explanation, within the Gelugpas are lamas who are "inclusive" i.e. they welcome and incorporate trainings from other schools into their practice. Then they are those who are "exclusive" and prefer to keep purely to the training within their lineage, taking the view that Tsongkhapa's teachings are already the perfect synthesis of essential practices.

It is thought that the lamas who practice exclusivity are a threat to the unity of all schools of Tibetan Buddhism and also pose an obstacle to the unification of the Tibetan people. I do not know if this is true, and if it were true that there were some elements of exclusivity within the Gelugpa School, I wonder if that still applies today. Tibet today is very different to the Tibet of old and I very much doubt if there is any Gelugpa lama, inclusive or exclusive, who do not wish the return of Tibet's independence. Most people inside Tibet and outside undertake a practice for the sake of having Dharma in their lives and without any political objectives. I suspect that like me, most people practice Dorje Shugden, not out of sectarian pride but because they see and experience how the practice have benefitted them and so many others.

I have not for a second, felt that my practice of Dorje Shugden obligates me to turn away from the other schools and in fact my Protector practice has made appreciate how so many are seeking the Dharma through means that came natural to them, just like Tsongkhapa's lineage practice came into my life quite naturally. And yet, the ban has had its most terrible effect on the ordinary practitioner, not the politicians who must be few in number compared to so many who were made to carry the burden.

However, I do appreciate the Dalai Lama's efforts to preserve Tibetan Buddhism as a whole and I cannot imagine what heavy burdens His Holiness has had to bear as the spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism. I think that is why Trijang Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden through the oracle have always insisted that we keep supporting the Dalai Lama. If the Dalai Lama laid the weight of suffering on Shugden practitioners, then His Holiness MUST have known, that Dorje Shugden will be able to hold his children together during this crisis and with the passing of time, this has proven to be true. The Dalai Lama knows that with trials come the testing of perseverance, and with perseverance, even greater faith in the Protector. One thing the ban has done is to separate the wheat from the chaff – those with strong samayas and those who are weak in their devotion and loyalty.

That would explain many things, especially why the ban never did seem to have a proper basis of spiritual or secular logic. But isn’t it time already to remove this weight of the shoulders of many? The ban has not united the Tibetan people but split them further and the effect is detrimental to the Tibetan cause. How many more must go to the graves with broken hearts, Your Holiness?

Ensapa

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2012, 07:12:11 AM »
Quote
However, I do appreciate the Dalai Lama's efforts to preserve Tibetan Buddhism as a whole and I cannot imagine what heavy burdens His Holiness has had to bear as the spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism. I think that is why Trijang Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden through the oracle have always insisted that we keep supporting the Dalai Lama. If the Dalai Lama laid the weight of suffering on Shugden practitioners, then His Holiness MUST have known, that Dorje Shugden will be able to hold his children together during this crisis and with the passing of time, this has proven to be true. The Dalai Lama knows that with trials come the testing of perseverance, and with perseverance, even greater faith in the Protector. One thing the ban has done is to separate the wheat from the chaff – those with strong samayas and those who are weak in their devotion and loyalty.


I fully agree with this part as it does resonate with what I feel about the Dalai Lama: He has indeed done a lot for Tibetan Buddhism, a lot more than anyone could ever accomplish for Tibetan Buddhism alone. But the thing is, he also has put a heavy burden/rock on Dorje Shugden practitioners that is not necessary in the first place. While one can only wonder why would the Dalai Lama do so, we must always stay strong and remember Trijang Rinpoche's words, and the oracle's advice on how to handle this.

DharmaSpace

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2012, 02:46:50 PM »
Karmapa is a Buddha he can definitely see the real nature of another Buddha like Dorje Shugden.

Because he has uttered the fact that one day that Dorje Shugden will be what everyone will propitiate in the end I think the Karmapa may yet have a role to play in the scheme of things. Dorje Shugden does not need rescuing as he is Buddha, the very practitioners who are oppressed by Dorje Shugden will need rescuing. Although the Karmapa does not have the rights to govern policies of the Gelugpa but if he does take on the Dalai Lama's mantle hopefully he can bring some sanity back to the chaos and difficulties created by this inhuman ban!     

Ensapa

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 07:20:39 AM »
Karmapa is a Buddha he can definitely see the real nature of another Buddha like Dorje Shugden.

Because he has uttered the fact that one day that Dorje Shugden will be what everyone will propitiate in the end I think the Karmapa may yet have a role to play in the scheme of things. Dorje Shugden does not need rescuing as he is Buddha, the very practitioners who are oppressed by Dorje Shugden will need rescuing. Although the Karmapa does not have the rights to govern policies of the Gelugpa but if he does take on the Dalai Lama's mantle hopefully he can bring some sanity back to the chaos and difficulties created by this inhuman ban!   

It is most likely that the Karmapa will play a role in things in the near future. The reason I say this is because he has already spoken up against the self immolations and also he has a very close connection to Trijang Rinpoche and it goes without saying that when the Dalai Lama is gone and there is a vacuum of power, it is very likely for the Karmapa to take the leadership while the Panchen Lama takes on the leadership for Tibet proper. Maybe there will also come a time where the Chinese Panchen Lama is recognized as the real incarnation. Given the close relationship of the Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche, we can say that the ban will most probably be lifted by him.

Big Uncle

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Re: Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2012, 05:20:21 PM »
As much as we would like the Karmapa to save the day by coming into power and lifting the ban. But reality is that there are a lot of issues that will prevent that from ever happening. Let's get real. The Karmapa taking over is promising but who is the right Karmapa to take over from the Dalai Lama as there are 2 Karmapas. Who should be the rightful heir to this incarnation? There can be 2 emanations but one is the mind emanation and the rightful heir. So, who is that? Who can decide this? The Dalai Lama? What about practitioners and High Lamas of the Karma Kagyu like Sharmapa?

Also, when the Karmapa does come to power and succeed the Dalai Lama, will his rule be recognized but the other sects? Would the seriously divided Gelug tradition accept the rule of the Karmapa? What about the Sakya and the Nyingma? If he were to make a declaration about Dorje Shugden, would that be accepted by the Gelugs?

Filling in for the Dalai Lama is a tall order because the Dalai Lama has a certain character personality that is pretty much uniquely the Dalai Lama and filling in the shoes and expecting the same respect and adulation would be very difficult to fulfill. I am not saying the Karmapa is bad but I am saying that people will have their own impression of Karmapa and the fact that he is still very young does not favor him at all in this case.

After going through all these points, I don't think the Karmapa would be a likely person to bring the ban on Dorje Shugden down. In fact, I don't even think he will be likely to succeed the Dalai Lama. However, he will most definitely develop into a highly respected spiritual leader much like his predecessor.