Author Topic: Clarification of dates sought  (Read 8045 times)

RichieRich

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Clarification of dates sought
« on: April 28, 2008, 06:19:42 AM »
Dear friends

The previous incarnations of Dorje Shugden are said to include Buton Rinchen Drub and Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen.

My understanding is that, for the former to have taken rebirth as the latter, he must have died prior to the latter being born.

However, Wikipedia and other sources given the dates of Buton Rinchen Drub as 1290-1364 whilst this website gives the dates of Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen as 1357-1419.

Thus, according to these dates, the lives of the two overlapped for seven years.

I would be most grateful if anyone was able to offer clarification on this matter.

With thanks

Robert Thomas

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Re: Clarification of dates sought
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2008, 10:35:43 AM »
Hi there, this is from page 22 of Trijang Rinpoche's commentary Music Delighting an Ocean of Conquerors which can be downloaded from the home page of this web site:

Best wishes

Robert

"Great  beings,  after  attaining  the  state  of  unexcelled  transcendent  wisdom that  is  the  culmination  of  the  qualities  of  abandonment  and  realization,  the Dharmakaya  that  is  said  to  be  the  fulfillment  of  their  own  welfare,  for  the  sake  of others,  display  their  body  and  speech  in  accordance  with  the  aspirations  of trainees.  This  variegated  display  merely  appears  to  be  distinct  forms  but  in actuality  is  not  separate  from  the  great  bliss  expanse  of  Dharmakaya.  Any  Buddha is  the  base  of  all  emanations  so  there  is  no  need  to  be  narrow?minded  thinking that  a  certain  emanation  is  one  particular  Buddha's  emanation  and  could  not  be the  emanation  of  another.    Also,  it  is  quite  possible  that  some  who  have  not studied  the  scriptural  tradition  or  have  studied  but  without  much  discerning wisdom,  might  think  that  as  long  as  the  successive  incarnations  of  a  lama  live  at different times it is fine, but it is impossible for two of their incarnations to be alive simultaneously. In fact, it is not a problem because, as is said in Sutralankara,

Just as immeasurable rays of the mandala   
Of the sun all mix together, 
Always engaged in the same work, 
That of illuminating the world, 
Likewise in the stainless sphere, 
Innumerable Buddhas mix together, 
Engaged in the same deeds,
Illuminating transcendent wisdom.

Thus,  many  sunrays  mixed  together  all  function  to  open  lotus  blossoms  and  so forth.  Similarly,  the  inconceivable  deeds  of  body,  speech,  and  mind,  the  three secrets  of  the  Buddhas  are  all  said  to  be  engaged  in  the  same  activity  of  ripening and liberating trainees.  The same sutra says,

Pure rivers, without going under the earth 
In separate places, with separate waters, 
In small amounts, function separately, 
Providing slight support for water life. 
 
Yet when they all reach the ocean, 
Their abode is one, and one great body   
Of water acts as one, and always supports 
Great quantities of marine life. 
 
Those who have not yet attained Buddhahood 
Have separate bodies and intellects, 
Little realization and do separate work, 
Always providing for the welfare of few sentient beings. 
 
All those who abide in Buddhahood itself, 
Have one form and one great realization, 
And their deeds, all mixed together, 
Always support great hosts of beings. 


For  example,  rivers,  without  going  underground,  are  separated  in  different  pools and  channels.  They  remain  apart,  have  little  effect,  and  provide  only  a  small habitat for creatures. But once they cut down through the earth and reach the salt water  of  the  sea,  they  all  become  one  habitat,  one  great  body  of  water,  of  the  same salty taste, act as one, and always support vast amounts of life. Likewise, the stable  Bodhisattvas  who  are  not  abiding  in,  have  not  attained,  complete enlightenment,  their  bodies  and  sense  of  self  are  different,  they  are  of  different levels  of  faculties,  their  realizations  are  small  and  activities  separate  so  that  they benefit  few  sentient  beings.  Once  they  abide  in  Buddhahood  itself,  their  form  is one  unimpeded  transcendent  wisdom,  their  realization  is  extremely  vast,  there  is no difference in their faculties, and their actions all merge as one to always benefit great hosts of beings.

In  brief,  Buddhas  only  appear  different  to  trainees,  but  they  are  actually  of one taste in stainless Dharmakaya. All vehicles, both the common and uncommon, are  in  agreement  on  this.  It  is  not  only  Buddhas  who  take  on  many  various  forms for  trainees  from  a  single  base  of  emanation.  Even  Bodhisattvas  abiding  on  the first  ground,  the  Joyous,  in  the  period  subsequent  to  their  direct  realization  of emptiness  called  subsequent  attainment,  can  see  a  hundred  Buddhas  in  an instant,  know  their  blessings,  and  abide  for  a  hundred  eons  knowing  the  origins and  ends  of  each.  They  can  enter  and  arise  from  a  hundred  different  states  of meditative  equipoise  in  an  instant.  They  can  move  a  hundred  worlds  and  are capable of illuminating them all, ripening hundreds of sentient beings in an instant through  miraculous  emanations.  Hundreds  go  to  the  state  of  Buddhahood  and they  open  hundreds  of  Dharma  doors  in  an  instant.    They  can  emanate  a  hundred forms  from  their  body  in  an  instant  with  hundreds  of  Bodhisattvas  in  attendance on  each.  Thus  attaining  these  twelve  sets  of  abilities  one  hundred  fold,  if,  at  that point  they are  able  to  emanate  hundred  of  different forms,  what  need  to  mention the  capacity  for  emanation  of  those  great  beings  who  have  exhausted  all  defects and  perfected  all  possible  qualities  completely!  Furthermore,  there  is  no contradiction  in  there  being  multiple  incarnations  of  a  single  holy  master.    As  said in the extensive biography of Je Tsongkhapa by Gyalwang Choje,

Therefore,  what  is  the  contradiction  in  the  incarnation  of  one  holy  being appearing  in  the  list  of  incarnations  of  another  holy  being?    Those  holy  beings are  not  incapable  of  more  than  a  single  emanation!  For  instance,  in  terms  of  Tibet  being  the  field  to  be  subdued  by  Arya  Avalokitesvara,  many  of  the previous  and  present  great  beings  were  Avalokitesvara  himself.    We  see  or hear  of  the  lists  of  their  incarnations  merging  at  times  and  who  can  say  that one  of  them  is  wrong?  With  this  insight,  one  is  freed  from  the  bondage  of doubt  arising  from  deluded  analysis  and  prejudice,  and  develops  a  pure  view of all holy beings impartially.

Thus,  in  the  case  of  this  great  being's  incarnations,  there  are  many  different  lists, and it would not be possible to tell the stories of all of them. Here, I will just give  a rough  account  of  the  incarnations  mentioned  in  the  praise.  A  brief  account  of Manjusri  has  already  been  given.  For  more  details  of  his  common  and  exclusive biographies, please consult the many that appear in both the Sutras and Tantras."

RichieRich

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Re: Clarification of dates sought
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2008, 12:01:58 PM »
Robert

That's extremely helpful.  Thanks very much!

a friend

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Re: Clarification of dates sought
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2008, 03:33:53 PM »
But of course, of course!

Why do you think we tell our peerless Master Je Tsongkapa:

You are Chenrezig, you are Mañjushri, you are Vajrapani?

Because Buddhas, in the ultimate sphere, are "of one taste", they are identical. Think of it: how would they be different, having erased all bad qualities with its traces, having acquired all good qualities to the fullness, and therefore knowing all without impediment? And remember that "knowing" in that level has nothing to do with what we call "knowing". That knowing is the inseparability of the one who knows and that which is known, something for us just unthinkable.

So, from that ultimate sphere of the Body of Truth, where all Buddhas are of one taste, they manifest their great compassion towards every one of us suffering beings through inconceivable means. For example, through emanations.

And there is no doubt that a true Buddha when it appears in this world under humble appearances carries with it the fullness of Buddhahood and that a true Buddha can emanate in zillion different ways simultaneously.

But beyond that ... things become more complicated. Beyond that comes the part of sentient beings. And we, because of the variegated karma from beginningless time, are so unique and utterly different taken either as individual or as groups ... That is why we develop some fortunate karmas related to a certain lineage of emanations of Buddhas, a certain lineage of the teachings they develop very finely tuned to every one of us, as individuals and as groups. And our Buddhas work very actively in this field of differences, they do it not out of divisiveness but out of great compassion.

And that is why it is so very important that we stick to our own lineage of fortunate relations with a special Lama, a special teaching, and at the same time respect deeply the lineage of others, but without mixing. If we mix lineages, then we go against that finely tuned work the Buddhas have done for us. And this is the core of the Protector's issue. That the Dalai Lama, temporarily blinded by his political aims, wants to destroy those boundaries among lineages, and the Protector does not want this. The Dalai Lama knows it, that his political/religious project goes against the general job of the Buddhas, and he knows that the Protector does not want this project. That is why he wishes to delete the Protector from our minds and from the world.

Keep on having faith in Lord Buddha, in all of our lineage Lamas, in our Protector. And pray that conflicts that come from our collective bad karma get resolved quickly and without hatred. With great great bodhicitta.

Sarva mangalam
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 06:05:15 PM by a friend »

beggar

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Re: Clarification of dates sought
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2008, 07:01:16 PM »

Dear Friend,

Thank you for this clear, profound and lovely explanation of why there are different traditions and lineages, why we should cherish them all and at the same time be loyal to the one of our affinity!

Rejoicingly yours -

beggar


Lineageholder

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Re: Clarification of dates sought
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2008, 12:24:38 PM »
Dear friend,

What a beautiful, clear and profound explanation of why there are different traditions but the need to rely only on one.  "If we mix lineages, then we go against that finely tuned work the Buddhas have done for us." - I like it!

I always think "how many paths to enlightenment do we need?  Only one true path"  Why would we need to mix lineages and practice many different teachings anyway?  The best thing is to keep it simple and rely on our Spiritual Guide who is the synthesis of all holy beings.  One lineage, one Teacher, one Yidam and one Protector.

Thank you!


Robert Thomas

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Re: Clarification of dates sought
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2008, 03:45:47 PM »
Hi Friend,

indeed, wonderful - thankyou

Robert