Author Topic: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you  (Read 11170 times)

Namdrol

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His Holiness: Accept Buddha’s Teachings ‘’Only After Proper Analysis’’

Friday, 17 August 2012 15:15 Mark Kernan, Tibet Post International
 
Dharamshala: His Holiness the Dalai Lama has returned to Dharamshala from Ladakh after giving a teaching to local Buddhists on the fundamental precepts and philosophical underpinnings of all the schools of Tibetan Buddhism. He said: ‘'the four traditional schools of Buddhism in Tibet may superficially seem to differ in the way they explain the [Buddhist] view, but ultimately what they refer to is the same [thing]''.
 The Tibetan spiritual leader spent four days in Ladakh, a region in Northern India sometime called ‘little Tibet' due to its strong linguistic, cultural and religious ties with Tibet, and, as he has does many times in the past, His Holiness stressed the importance of the authenticity of Buddhist teachings, and being true to the historical Buddha's words.
 
He stressed, ‘' In fact the Buddha counseled his followers to examine what he taught and to adopt it only if they felt it was worthwhile, not simply out of respect for him''.
 
On the second day of the teachings His Holiness talked of Dolgyal (or Shugden). He said that he stopped propitiating the spirit many years ago after extensive investigations had revealed it was improper to do so.
 
His Holiness encapsulated his thinking on the subject of Dolgyal by saying, ‘'anyone who has kept up the practice of Dolgyal out of ignorance should not have any fear about giving it up if they heed his advice.

On the other hand, he said, whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.''


Turning to other themes, he reiterated his long standing conviction that Buddhism must not just rely on tradition and handed down conventions based on out dated thinking. For example, in reply to some Korean Buddhists a few years His Holiness said, ‘'that he didn't think the Buddha appeared in the world to give cosmic measurements, but to show the way to liberation from cyclic existence''.
 
Moreover, the pertinent point he made was that if you take refuge in the three Jewels of Buddhism-The Buddha, Sangha and Dharma- it is because you have consciously tried to ‘'overcome all faults and [ripen] all qualities''.
 
Cultivating Compassion
 
On the third day, in order to cultivate compassion, and altruism, His Holiness said that an altruistic attitude-to all living beings-is essential if we wish to achieve Buddhahood. His Holiness went through important Buddhist initiations with the congregation for instance the ‘rite to aspire to develop Boddhichitta'. Boddhichitta: meaning the awakened mind that strives for compassion and solidarity with all humans and all other sentient beings.
 
On the fourth and final day His Holiness the Dalai Lama gave the long life empowerment associated with White Tara (a female deity in Tibetan Buddhism), and symbolically, she is regarded as the feminine aspect of Avalokitesvara.
 
Amongst other things, His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama went onto discuss the importance of religious tolerance in all parts of the world-not least within the different Tibetan Buddhist traditions and his hope that current tolerance would prevail everywhere.
 
Finally, His Holiness thanked the congregation and the organizers for making his visit a successful one. His Holiness then conferred the long life empowerment of White Tara and subsequent prayers were conducted in relation to White Tara for his long life. At one point in proceedings, after the sun had come out, he stopped to remark:
 
"The 13th Dalai Lama was once giving a teaching at Norbulingka on a very hot day and there are reports that you could tell who had attended them by their sunburnt faces. It looks like it'll be the same today."

Namdrol

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 02:01:26 AM »
In this latest talk by Dalai Lama, he mentioned that "whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you", therefore that includes Nechung (Pehar spirit, see below description from Wikipedia), but why is it that it is OK for the Tibetan Government-in-exile (now downgraded to Central Tibetan Administration, CTA) to pray to Nechung and seek his advice via the "state oracle" from time to time, but Dorje Shugden has to be outcasted? By the way, while Nechung is a proven spirit, Dorje Shugden on the other hand is an emanation of a Bodhisattva, He is not even close to being a "spirit".

Wikipedia: Pehar is a spirit belonging to the gyalpo class. When Padmasambhava arrived in Tibet in the eighth century, he subdued all gyalpo spirits and put them under control of Gyalpo Pehar, who promised not to harm any sentient beings and was made the chief guardian spirit of the Samye Temple built at that time. Some Tibetans believe that the protector of Samye sometimes enters the body of a medium (called the "Dharma Lord of Samye") and acts as an oracle.

Namdrol

Namdrol

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 02:11:13 AM »
Read about Dalai Lama and CTA’s dealings with the Nechung spirit all this while: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-wheel-of-protection/

On the other hand, he said, whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.”

So why the double-standard? In that case, all the Tibetan officials should be sacked and all monks around Dalai Lama should be expelled because they definitely pray to Nechung the spirit, they even seek Nechung's advice via the oracle regularly, it is no wonder that they lost Tibet, because they chose to listen to a spirit's advice, and they still do.

Namdrol

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 02:14:08 AM »
By the way, to say "double standard" is not accurate, Nechung cannot be compared to Dorje Shugden in any ways, it is akin to comparing a ghost with a Buddha, the hell with the heaven.

Ensapa

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 06:10:02 AM »
This is indeed a far, far cry from what he has said many years back, when he had to enforce the ban. HHDL seems to be giving leeway to people who are not Tibetan to practice Dorje Shugden. Why the different tone now? is it because he realizes that Dorje Shugden cannot be stopped at all and despite the ban his practice is still growing worldwide? But he does keep giving Dorje Shugden free publicity, again and again and all the time. The historical evidence on his website and the historical reasonings that he gave are not substantial and only provokes people to find out more and dig deeper...although a huge amount of people still prefer to believe and settle down with that. I dont exactly believe that the Dalai Lama has 'given up' on the ban, but I do believe that this change of stance is a very surprising move for someone of the Dalai Lama's rank and name. If any, all this would be the effort of this website, doing so much promotions about Dorje Shugden but not in an invasive way but in a way that asks and urges people to check before they believe in something....the Dalai Lama is a great teacher and scholar, but if he says something that challenges reality or the Buddha's teachings, then we do need to check, but it does not make him a bad person or a bad monk.

Everyone has been working very hard towards lifting the ban: WSS's protests have brought a lot of attention to the ban itself, and made reporters dig deeper and think deeper about the whole free Tibet thing as well as whether or not the Dalai Lama was really serious about the whole free tibet thing...how can you demand people to not oppress the Tibetans when they are oppressing the Dorge Shugden practitioners. Not too long after the protests by WSS, a french TV station and Al Jazeera both went to Dharamsala to actually look at the Dorje Shugden practitioners that were being ostracized and now we have real, clear footage of those incidents. In effect, it caused many reporters to question the Dalai Lama and the then katri, Samdhong Rinpoche and they had to change their statements. This shows that if we work hard, we will lift the ban and proof of that is the Dalai Lama softening his stance of Dorje Shugden.

thor

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2012, 09:16:20 AM »
Namdrol, I read this in a different way. And in fact, I am rather pleased to read what the Dalai Lama has said.

Quote
‘' In fact the Buddha counseled his followers to examine what he taught and to adopt it only if they felt it was worthwhile, not simply out of respect for him''.

How very true. Buddhism is not based on blind faith, but on examining what is said and accepting it as true if it passes examination. It is not necessary to accept anything purely out of respect or faith.

Likewise, this ban on Dorje Shugden.

The Dalai Lama is certainly to be respected. He comes from a long line of incarnations, he is the political leader of Tibet, as well as its spiritual leader. But Tibetan Buddhism has many facets. It has many sects, each with its own spiritual leader. Each sect has different beliefs and different practices, and practitioners are encouraged to choose any sect they feel most comfortable with, and stick with it. All sects lead to the same ultimate goal, but the methods and paths are different.

Likewise Dorje Shugden's practice.

We all should respect the Dalai Lama. He has done much for the cause of Tibetan Buddhism. But it doesn't mean we have to heed his every word, unless he is your guru. The Dalai lama being the spiritual leader of Tibet doesn't mean he is your guru.

So what I am trying to say is, don't let popular opinion trick you into thinking that the Dalai Lama's every word is the law. Even the Dalai lama agrees with that in his statement above.

 
On the second day of the teachings His Holiness talked of Dolgyal (or Shugden). He said that he stopped propitiating the spirit many years ago after extensive investigations had revealed it was improper to do so.
 
His Holiness encapsulated his thinking on the subject of Dolgyal by saying, ‘'anyone who has kept up the practice of Dolgyal out of ignorance should not have any fear about giving it up if they heed his advice. And he tells you that:

Quote
Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.''

Exactly. Would you obey everything that ganden tripa, or sakya trizin, or penor rinpoche, or Karmapa says? If you didn't, so what? They are not your teachers. And whether they welcome you to their teachings or not, it should not matter.

Listening to your guru is supreme. The rest is optional.

Ensapa

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2012, 09:37:41 AM »
Namdrol, I read this in a different way. And in fact, I am rather pleased to read what the Dalai Lama has said.

Quote
‘' In fact the Buddha counseled his followers to examine what he taught and to adopt it only if they felt it was worthwhile, not simply out of respect for him''.

How very true. Buddhism is not based on blind faith, but on examining what is said and accepting it as true if it passes examination. It is not necessary to accept anything purely out of respect or faith.

Likewise, this ban on Dorje Shugden.

The Dalai Lama is certainly to be respected. He comes from a long line of incarnations, he is the political leader of Tibet, as well as its spiritual leader. But Tibetan Buddhism has many facets. It has many sects, each with its own spiritual leader. Each sect has different beliefs and different practices, and practitioners are encouraged to choose any sect they feel most comfortable with, and stick with it. All sects lead to the same ultimate goal, but the methods and paths are different.

Likewise Dorje Shugden's practice.

We all should respect the Dalai Lama. He has done much for the cause of Tibetan Buddhism. But it doesn't mean we have to heed his every word, unless he is your guru. The Dalai lama being the spiritual leader of Tibet doesn't mean he is your guru.

So what I am trying to say is, don't let popular opinion trick you into thinking that the Dalai Lama's every word is the law. Even the Dalai lama agrees with that in his statement above.

 
On the second day of the teachings His Holiness talked of Dolgyal (or Shugden). He said that he stopped propitiating the spirit many years ago after extensive investigations had revealed it was improper to do so.
 
His Holiness encapsulated his thinking on the subject of Dolgyal by saying, ‘'anyone who has kept up the practice of Dolgyal out of ignorance should not have any fear about giving it up if they heed his advice. And he tells you that:

Quote
Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.''

Exactly. Would you obey everything that ganden tripa, or sakya trizin, or penor rinpoche, or Karmapa says? If you didn't, so what? They are not your teachers. And whether they welcome you to their teachings or not, it should not matter.

Listening to your guru is supreme. The rest is optional.

To be honest, unless I stay in Dharamsala and in one of the monasteries where I can meet His Holiness directly on a regular basis, there really is no reason for me to take him as a Guru. I am not taken in by his fame and power or spiritual attainments, although i respect those very much and would like to have them for myself, but what is the use if I am unable to have a traditional guru-student relationship with him? I'd rather choose a Guru who is always around and is always available for me and who always observes me and gives me customized advice that suits my disposition rather than choosing a high and famous Lama as a Guru, be tied down and be limited to what I can get from him and then not see him for the next 10 years and the only advice that I can get is when I write an email to him (and the advice received is most probably of a generic nature) or read the books that he has published. I do not want that kind of relationship at all, because what else can I benefit from such a relationship? it is so very limited.

If there is a DS lama nearby and he is able to guide me all the way, I would go for that Lama as opposed to the Dalai Lama because the DS lama can benefit me more. This is just a logical and sensible way of seeing things. I would rather practice Dorje Shugden than follow a Lama that is rarely there for me.

DharmaSpace

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2012, 01:00:53 PM »
Well what the Dalai lama said is a far cry from the days that he asked people and monks to root out the dorje shudgen practitioners,expose and take action against them.

Well CTA you have heard the Dalai Lama not banning the Dorje Shudgen as per before so what are you all waiting for? Lift the ban and perhaps you stand a chance to save your country?

And Dalai Lama is still asking people to read and think for themselves. If the ban was not a smoke screen, why would Dalai Lama suggest to investigate, he would say just believe what I say. And many people should and can easily believe someone of the Dalai Lama's stature.

harrynephew

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2012, 02:31:58 PM »
His Holiness: Accept Buddha’s Teachings ‘’Only After Proper Analysis’’

Friday, 17 August 2012 15:15 Mark Kernan, Tibet Post International
 
On the second day of the teachings His Holiness talked of Dolgyal (or Shugden). He said that he stopped propitiating the spirit many years ago after extensive investigations had revealed it was improper to do so.
 
His Holiness encapsulated his thinking on the subject of Dolgyal by saying, ‘'anyone who has kept up the practice of Dolgyal out of ignorance should not have any fear about giving it up if they heed his advice.

On the other hand, he said, whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.''


Turning to other themes, he reiterated his long standing conviction that Buddhism must not just rely on tradition and handed down conventions based on out dated thinking. For example, in reply to some Korean Buddhists a few years His Holiness said, ‘'that he didn't think the Buddha appeared in the world to give cosmic measurements, but to show the way to liberation from cyclic existence''.
 
Amongst other things, His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama went onto discuss the importance of religious tolerance in all parts of the world-not least within the different Tibetan Buddhist traditions and his hope that current tolerance would prevail everywhere.

 

I find this piece of news rather uninspiring like the old cries of the CTA. Here HHDL tells the people in the teachings about his views on the Dolgyal spirit and then turns onto a different subject of religious tolerance. And there is hope that it will prevail everywhere when within the Tibetan community itself, people; monks, men, women and children alike who follow this sacred practice of Dorje Shugden passed down beautifully from eminent Lamas and some of them were HHDL's root gurus are being threatened almost on a daily basis to either give up their practice or suffer the consequences.

There has been a trend in the news from the CTA these days whereby u are told that the spirit is wrong and evil and you should not practice etc etc etc and on the other hand people are told to be harmonious with each other and respect their belief. What happened to the notices of people ostracised from their own community and not even allowed any form of sustenance?

My point here is that, yes Dolgyal may be a spirit or not that is not the matter. Depriving from a fellow mankind from living is evil in itself and we should shun such practice.

Harry Nephew

Love Shugden, Love all Lamas, Heal the World!

Mana

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2012, 09:37:42 AM »
Due to the pressure of the Indian Govt who is truly a democratic rule, the Dalai Lama had to tone down on the negative talk against Shugden.

Dalai Lama never comments on Hinduism. But it is clear the protectors Dalai Lama worships such as Six Armed Mahakala steps on Ganesha a central deity within Hinduism. The Buddhist texts mention Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu (and avatars) are gods in the desire realm who are below the Buddha and worshipping them will not bring nirvana. In fact they can create disharmony as they are jealous gods. But Dalai Lama can show respect towards Hinduism (which he should) and never comment on these gods in India. If he did, there would be a furor and huge protests throughout India.

So Dalai Lama has to be careful and heed the advice of the Indian govt who has provided him with a safe haven for five decades now.

The Indian govt is aware of the negative ban against Shugden by Dalai Lama and has advised Dalai Lama to tone it down even though to the Indians, it is an internal Tibetan religious affair.

Do you find the Indian Govt in the right with their stance, or should speak up more and publicly? Are they afraid to speak up?

Mana

Ensapa

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2012, 12:02:21 PM »
Due to the pressure of the Indian Govt who is truly a democratic rule, the Dalai Lama had to tone down on the negative talk against Shugden.

Dalai Lama never comments on Hinduism. But it is clear the protectors Dalai Lama worships such as Six Armed Mahakala steps on Ganesha a central deity within Hinduism. The Buddhist texts mention Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu (and avatars) are gods in the desire realm who are below the Buddha and worshipping them will not bring nirvana. In fact they can create disharmony as they are jealous gods. But Dalai Lama can show respect towards Hinduism (which he should) and never comment on these gods in India. If he did, there would be a furor and huge protests throughout India.

So Dalai Lama has to be careful and heed the advice of the Indian govt who has provided him with a safe haven for five decades now.

The Indian govt is aware of the negative ban against Shugden by Dalai Lama and has advised Dalai Lama to tone it down even though to the Indians, it is an internal Tibetan religious affair.

Do you find the Indian Govt in the right with their stance, or should speak up more and publicly? Are they afraid to speak up?
I find that India is slowly starting to speak up about the ban thanks to Kundeling Rinpoche's efforts to highlight it to them. India knows for sure that if the Dalai Lama can speak up against Dorje Shugden, he can equally speak up against Hindu gods when the time comes and disturb the peace and delicate balance of religion in India. China already keeps telling everyone that he is a splittist, and due to this India and Nepal has also stepped up CTA's illegal centers mushrooming everywhere without the proper permits. HHDL implementing the ban shows that he is proving China right: he wants to divide everyone. To counter this, HHDL has been visiting hindu temples and shrines and of other religions around, but I dont think it does much to quell india's anxiousness about it as they are asking CTA why are they so contradictory in their policies. the Indian govt is passively telling CTA and HHDL to tone down, but they cannot do it publicly or else big brother USA will react to it negatively. So, I believe that what India is doing is correct, but they too are suppressed by the US so they have to be very careful.

Mana

It is heartening to know that the efforts made by everyone: Geshe Keslang and Kundeling Rinpoche are slowly bearing fruit. Geshe Keslang's efforts caused more exposure about the ban to the international community, while Kundeling Rinpoche's efforts caused the ban to be noticed by India, CTA's gracious host and they are not very happy about it. In other ways, HHDL is now being pressured to lift the ban more than before and it is working. Soon, he will have no choice but to lift it.

kris

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2012, 01:07:27 PM »
The world political scene is indeed very interesting. In 1959, China "invaded" Tibet and most of the western countries were condemning China, but a few centuries later, everyone has to bow down to China. On the other hand, political scene has also changed in India.

I welcome all the pressures given to CTA will be gear towards the lifting of the ban. I like the work done by this website where they have given them a lot of pressures for the benefit of the lifting the ban. The latest debate/logic presented by this website that I like is this: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/has-the-gelug-lineage-lost-its-effectiveness/

We need to work hard and give more pressures to CTA and bring down the ban (or the so called advice)!!

dondrup

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 11:51:07 AM »

He stressed, ‘' In fact the Buddha counseled his followers to examine what he taught and to adopt it only if they felt it was worthwhile, not simply out of respect for him''.
 
On the second day of the teachings His Holiness talked of Dolgyal (or Shugden). He said that he stopped propitiating the spirit many years ago after extensive investigations had revealed it was improper to do so.
 
His Holiness encapsulated his thinking on the subject of Dolgyal by saying, ‘'anyone who has kept up the practice of Dolgyal out of ignorance should not have any fear about giving it up if they heed his advice.

On the other hand, he said, whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.''



It is clear from Buddha and HH Dalai Lama that Buddhists should examine the teachings of Buddha and accept it only after they are convinced of its worthiness. Hence everyone can decide for themselves if they want to follow Dorje Shugden practice after having performed their own investigation thereon.

Why isn’t CTA lifting the ban on Dorje Shugden?  It does not matter anymore to you CTA whether Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or otherwise because HH Dalai Lama had given his green light for anyone who chose to practise whatever fierce spirits.  If practicing spirits is allowed, why practising a Buddha (Dorje Shugden) is not allowed? 

Ensapa

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2012, 01:11:10 PM »

It is clear from Buddha and HH Dalai Lama that Buddhists should examine the teachings of Buddha and accept it only after they are convinced of its worthiness. Hence everyone can decide for themselves if they want to follow Dorje Shugden practice after having performed their own investigation thereon.
But sadly, many choose to be selective over the Dalai Lama's advice of practicing love and compassion and also with regards to the ban. The ban is not as overblown as it appears to be now but due to insecure people, they have overblown the issue out of proportion and now it is what it is now: a ban that was implemented out of blind faith and ignorance.

Why isn’t CTA lifting the ban on Dorje Shugden?  It does not matter anymore to you CTA whether Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or otherwise because HH Dalai Lama had given his green light for anyone who chose to practise whatever fierce spirits.  If practicing spirits is allowed, why practising a Buddha (Dorje Shugden) is not allowed?
Soon, CTA's influence will wane and be less and less and they will be nothing. When that happens it does not matter anymore if the ban is still on or off because no one will listen to them and they would have destroyed themselves and their reputation with it and they will be gone. Either they lift the ban or they will be gone by their own ignorance and inability to adapt.

Pretty strong points here, dondrup, but somehow, it is okay for CTA to keep their ban because it will be meaningless soon if they dont lift it. The ban is a religious thing and not a political thing so why do they mix them up and cause untold suffering for so many people?

Tammy

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Re: Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2012, 01:34:41 PM »
I agree with Thor and Mana that HHDL had in fact toned down this stance against Dorje Shudgen. This is definitely a good sign for people who propitiates this enlightened dharma protector, as this would mean SOON, CTA would not have any excuse to ill-treat or side-line DS practitioners anymore.

As for those who follow their Guru's advise to practise DS, we just continue doing what we do under the holy mandala of the sacred protector.

Are we looking at the first sign of the ban being lifted ???
Down with the BAN!!!