Author Topic: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted  (Read 17699 times)

michaela

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Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« on: June 30, 2012, 10:26:56 AM »
There is no denying that HHDL has been promoting peace and harmony around the world.  However, the issue of Shugden ban cannot be separated from HHDL because he started it.  The ban has created sufferings for a lot of people.  HHDL may have done it for a bigger picture, that is to proof beyond a doubt that DS is an enlightened deity – for example by ordering various rituals and puja to subdue DS so that to proof DS cannot be subdued because he is an enlightened being. 

Using my ordinary mind to think about the situation, I do not doubt that DS is an enlightened being because:
•   He is the incarnation of an enlightened mind, and degeneration from enlightened mind is possible
•   He cannot be subdued by various rituals because he is enlightened
•   Personal experience that he has been helping me since my Lama gave his practice to me.  And I have faith in my Lama that he will not give me practice that would harm me.

Various individuals in this forum keep mentioning that HHDL has a bigger picture in implementing the ban because they have so much faith in HHDL and there must be a reason that an enlightened being like HHDL can implement this type of ban.  However, this bigger picture as I observed often become a cause for people to act passively and adopt “a wait and see” attitute. 

In my view, with no disrespect to HHDL, the ban should be lifted soon for the following reasons:
•   It has proof enough that DS is an enlightened protector
•   It has caused suffering to the existing DS practitioners who have to go underground or forced to declare that they are not DS practitioners.  As I love DS very much like so many in this forum, I could imagine that denouncing my own protector will cause so much heartache.  Not to mention the implication to our samaya with our Guru who gave us this practice.
•   After a decade, the ban has failed to raise DS to international fame and prestige.  It is only mentioned in a passing in major world periodicals that we are only a group of weird looking deity worshipper at odd with HHDL.  I attribute the growth of DS practice to so many brave Lamas who have been working underground to promote the truth about DS.

Another misunderstanding that often ensued when discussing the ban, when we voiced our opinion that the ban should be lifted.  It is often directly viewed as an attack on HHDL personality.  The argument often become very emotional with HHDL camp defending what this high Lama has done for the growth of Dharma.  However, I think we should really separate the discussion of the ban itself and the discussion of HHDL personality.  By doing that, we will be able to see the problems in a more clear light.

Do you have other reasons as to why the ban should be lifted??

Ensapa

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2012, 11:18:51 AM »
There are several reasons to why the ban should be lifted:

- To not restrict Dorje Shugden's Dharma works
Dorje Shugden is a very powerful Dharma protector. He is able to benefit any one who even hears of his name and makes heartfelt prayers to him, he will assist, and many people have receive so much benefit from him over the 350 years of his existence. He benefits even those with low motivations or with very little connection to Buddhism, and only want to have temporal or small benefits such as getting material gains for example. For those with higher motivations and who wants to have success in their Dharma practice, Dorje Shugden provides all the necessary conditions so that they would be able to gain those attainments. Why deny the works of such an amazing Dharma protector, one who has probably not existed before this?

- To really free Tibet
Nechung is retiring soon and his retirement has been predicted in a few texts, namely by Trijang Rinpoche. It is very obvious that Nechung is unable to free tibet and he even accelerated the fall of the Ganden Phodrang by sending their troops to die in the hands of the british troops. He even tried to poison the 13th Dalai Lama by prescribing the wrong medication. These actions prove that Nechung is no longer interested in CTA's welfare and he even told the government that Dorje Shugden is harmful to them because they are not ready for Dorje Shugden's help. It will never be ready if they hold on to their delusions that Dorje Shugden is bad.

- To repent and purify their past and present negative actions
CTA has done many negative things in the past. Here are some of their actions: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2136.0 what is worse is that they blame all of these to the Dalai Lama. They have also spread much misinformation about Buddhism and Dorje Shugden. All of these actions will ensure that the Tibetans will lose everything over time. Once their Dharma has been passed to the world, their culture will end unless they do something about it. Dorje Shugden is the only protector that will be able to help them purify their karma.

These are some of the big reasons why the ban must be lifted.

Big Uncle

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2012, 03:49:13 PM »
I have got one more reason why the ban on Dorje Shugden should be abolished as soon as possible. The ban on Dorje Shugden has caused a great rupture in Tibetan society, which is under the leadership of the diminishing Central Tibetan Adminstration(CTA). CTA was called Tibetan Government in Exile but it has been reduced to Central Tibetan Administration because of pressure from the Indian government which originated from China. That showed how bad CTA is at handling its diplomatic relations with China.

All its efforts to start or maintain dialogue with China has failed to produce any concrete results. Hence, China has been very adamant to stamped out any CTA presence around the world and more and more countries are bowing to Chinese pressure. Hence, the CTA's days are numbered. They are just no match for China. Hence, they should do something radical to stay alive and that is to improve upon its biggest problem, namely the huge social repercussions of the Dorje Shugden ban.

The time is ripe now since the Dalai Lama has resigned from office and the majority (if not all all) members of the CTA are currently held by lay people, the CTA should head in the direction of secular rule and abolish all archaic religious bans and the reason is to foster social harmony within the Tibetan community. There's really no better time to step up and improve upon the already tarnish image of Tibetan harmony. On top of that, the prime minister is a Harvard graduate. He should know the importance of social harmony in any form of government. Dr Lobsang Sangye, time to do something instead of just talk.

dsiluvu

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2012, 05:37:25 PM »
I think perhaps the biggest reason WHY the Ban should be lifted is because well Mr. Lobsang Sangay & CTA... you claim yourself to be a democratic ruling govt in exile. And in DEMOCRACY  perhaps the most important and biggest FREEDOM to grant is the freedom of religion!

This is probably the most important freedom in a democracy. The freedom of religion is the right to adhere to one’s conscience, the right to choose what one believes. How can a democracy function if people are not able to exercise the basic right to have beliefs and ideologies???

By oppressing people's religion and faith only creates disharmony and we all know what is the consequence result to that especially since the Tibetan population is already so small, you do not need to make it any smaller? This I do not get... it is like now being separated you have only 1 arm to work with, would it not be much better if you had two arms? United we stand, divided we fall - ever heard of that CTA?


Vajraprotector

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2012, 06:32:23 PM »
Because:

a) Shugden practitioners are not the one who causes the danger of Tibetan Buddhism to degenerate into a form of spirit worship.
- Many great masters, including the Dalai Lama’s teachers have said that Dorje Shugden is a wisdom protector while everyone knows that Nechung, is not.
 
b) To realise real understanding and harmony that His Holiness has been talking about
- People of all religion can attend His Holiness’ teachings  but monks and great masters who practise Dorje Shugden cannot? There is not even harmony in Tibetan Buddhism itself?
- When can segregation walls like this be torn down? (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6262) The wall that separates Vajra brothers of the same monastery, lineage and students of the same teachers?

I agree with Ensapa's 'To repent and purify their past and present negative actions'
- Perhaps they have forgotten about the history of the rising of Dorje Shugden who was murdered by the Gaden Phodrang, and the huge black hand arising from black smoke?

michaela

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2012, 07:46:12 PM »

•   He is the incarnation of an enlightened mind, and degeneration from enlightened mind is possible

I have a little typo there.  I should have said that degeneration from enlightened mind is impossible (not possible)

AnneQ

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2012, 04:20:26 AM »
Yes I do agree with everyone here on why the ban should be lifted. I would also like to add my personal view on this matter.

As we all know, Buddha Shakyamuni has predicted 2500 years ago the onslaught of the Degenerate Times.
To quote dsiluvu's post in another topic : " Nuns Behaving Badly and Disrespectful" -
The Buddha Shakyamuni has already predicted 2500 years ago that this would happen. He has foretold that the true teachings will gradually lose their clarity and then disappear. Few people will reach enlightenment and even fewer will be able to reach enlightenment in one lifetime. This will proceed into darkness of times, when the truthof things will not be seen anymore, until very far in time, a new Buddha, BuddhaMaitreya, will appear. Thus is his prediction and the signs are all over.The Buddha called these the “degeneration times”. This is so, because these times aremarked by 5 degenerations.

1) Decrease of lifespan.
2) Increase of wrong views.
3) Increase of disturbing emotions.
4) Increase of mental afflictions.
5) The prevalence of bad times, including war, famine and disease.


And a few examples that we are already smacked right in these degenerate times are the increasing self-immolation of monks in Tibetan communities, the incident in 1996 where nuns destroyed DS Buddha statues by stomping, throwing and spitting on, then dragging the statues out along the streets, CTA conducting discriminatory and barbaric acts against fellow Tibetans in exile...etc, along with all the increasing natural disasters, famine, drought the modern world is currently experiencing.

Here is my view: Is it not obvious that the Ban has been perpetuating these degenerate acts on humanity? Or in my opinion, it may even be the cause of these barbaric acts? Hence the Ban should be lifted for the sake of mankind, and there are no 2 ways about it. Stop these degenerating acts by lifting the Ban and perhaps we can save ourselves from further degeneration.

biggyboy

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2012, 06:34:22 AM »
What about human rights?  Each and everyone be they DS practitioners or not should have their freedom to choose their faith.  If it is their Guru's instructions why are they being admonished from propitiating DS and need to defy their Guru's advice.  This has caused so much pain and sufferings to many, direct and indirectly.  If we call ourselves a Buddhist why are we again contradict ourselves? Where is the compassion and the support for each and everyone?  I don't see that.  It is the people who works and support at behind the scene and underground fervently in order to get the ban to be lifted. Hence, no freedom of choice of practising.

Everyone is entitled to human rights whether practitioner or non practitioners.  There should not be any discrimination and equanimity should transcend to all.  Let's all have the peace and freedom of choice to practise. 

diablo1974

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2012, 02:46:48 PM »
Personal view:
1. Religious rights
HHdl and CTA can ignore the freedom in selecting a faith or religion in the name of "righteosness". Its such a shame and boo hoo. And its done on the basis of "preserving pure buddhadharma" which i find it ridiculous. And the target is an enlightened being.
2. Human rights
Tibet is considered a religious country and religious policy should undergo a fair voting system for the people to choose or give up the practice instead of doing it their way.
3. Cultural rights
Religion and faith are passed down from generations after generations and as time passes it will be come a culture and then a tradition. Its rooted in people lives and should be respected. China has already regretted its cultural revolution act.
These are three universal rights every single human should be entitled to. If this can be enforced and maintained well, i believe there will not be any unnecessary disputes arising from the doer and the public concerns.


michaela

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2012, 04:21:14 PM »
The thread in this topic has given me a lot more insights and more reasons as to why the ban should be lifted. 

However, I am intriqued with one particular reason:

- To really free Tibet
Nechung is retiring soon and his retirement has been predicted in a few texts, namely by Trijang Rinpoche. It is very obvious that Nechung is unable to free tibet and he even accelerated the fall of the Ganden Phodrang by sending their troops to die in the hands of the british troops. He even tried to poison the 13th Dalai Lama by prescribing the wrong medication. These actions prove that Nechung is no longer interested in CTA's welfare and he even told the government that Dorje Shugden is harmful to them because they are not ready for Dorje Shugden's help. It will never be ready if they hold on to their delusions that Dorje Shugden is bad.


To my knowledge, the purpose of a Dharma protector is to protect Dharma not a particular country.  True that Tibet as a country has fallen. However, Tibetan Buddhism has become one of the fastest growing religion in the world.  I think this is a sign that Dharma Protector like Nechung or DS are true to their vows to protect the Buddhism in general (Nechung) and to protect Lama Tsongkhapa lineage (DS).

How is freeing Tibet as a nation relevant with the function of Dharma protector itself.  Although Tibet as a nation has fallen, Tibetan Buddhism has become one of the fastest growing religion in the world.  To me this is evidence that the Dharma protectors are true to their vows.

Personally, I think that the chance of Tibet to get their independence is very remote now due to the following reasons:
-  No countries actually recognize Tibetan Independence
-  China has grown really strong militarily and economically
-  Since Chinese occupation in 1959, many residents from mainland China has migrated to Tibet to encourage assimilation
-  There is no way Tibetan government in exile with their current strength can win their country back.

Even HHDL recognized this and made a statement that Tibet is not fighting for independence, but only for autonomy.

 

Ensapa

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2012, 11:52:01 AM »
The thread in this topic has given me a lot more insights and more reasons as to why the ban should be lifted. 

However, I am intriqued with one particular reason:

To my knowledge, the purpose of a Dharma protector is to protect Dharma not a particular country.  True that Tibet as a country has fallen. However, Tibetan Buddhism has become one of the fastest growing religion in the world.  I think this is a sign that Dharma Protector like Nechung or DS are true to their vows to protect the Buddhism in general (Nechung) and to protect Lama Tsongkhapa lineage (DS).

How is freeing Tibet as a nation relevant with the function of Dharma protector itself.  Although Tibet as a nation has fallen, Tibetan Buddhism has become one of the fastest growing religion in the world.  To me this is evidence that the Dharma protectors are true to their vows.

Personally, I think that the chance of Tibet to get their independence is very remote now due to the following reasons:
-  No countries actually recognize Tibetan Independence
-  China has grown really strong militarily and economically
-  Since Chinese occupation in 1959, many residents from mainland China has migrated to Tibet to encourage assimilation
-  There is no way Tibetan government in exile with their current strength can win their country back.

Even HHDL recognized this and made a statement that Tibet is not fighting for independence, but only for autonomy.


To be very honest, that is what I feel too. A Dharmapala's job is to protect the Dharma and its practitioners and get rid of negative conditions/situations so that Dharma teachings can survive and be disseminated. However, somehow or rather Nechung was appointed as Tibet's official Dharma protector and is supposed to take care of Tibet as well. This is the reason why you see him taking trance for the Ganden Phodrang and even Lobsang Sanggay has consulted him as well: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1841.0 so why does the CTA need a Dharma protector to help them out on one hand and on the other hand do little for the Dharma and even destroying it by enforcing the ban in such a way where more Dharma is destroyed? Does not make sense to me...

I like your view, michaela, but sadly the CTA does not see it as that way and still consults nechung on when Tibet will be free. Freeing Tibet to the CTA is relevant as they see themselves as a Buddhist government that protects the Dharma but they cannot explain why they banned the reincarnations of such high lamas like chankya rolpa dorje and sacked their ladrangs. They are contradicting their own causes and motivations which is another reason why them consulting Dharma protectors will bring no results or will have results that are unable to manifest.

The Tibetan government has nothing to show to the world, nor can they offer anything to the world. Tibetan Buddhism has spread far and wide since and that has slipped out of their hands now. They are no longer responsible for the spread of Tibetan Buddhism in the world. To say that they support the monasteries, last I heard most of the facilities in the monastery was provided for by private sponsors. It would be extremely good if CTA can scrape off some money and make offerings to Ganden, Sera and Drepung every monlam instead of making statement after statement. If they could at least develop Dharamsala into a very nice place, that would turn China's head and China would have confidence in CTA when they take over Tibet and they will have talks with them as they're now on the same level.

Autonomy is the last hope for the Tibetans in Tibet who finds it hard to conform to the Chinese laws and systems so that they will suffer a little less.

vajrastorm

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2012, 09:24:07 AM »
There is also one very good reason why the ban has to be lifted as swiftly as possible. This reason has to do with the danger of the decline and possible disappearance of Je Tsongkapa's lineage teachings or the Gelug lineage teachings.

We have seen how, alongside the dismissal of Dorje Shugden as a Supramundane Dharma Protector and condemnation of Him as a Preta Being, has also come the condemnation of Gelugpas and great Gelug Masters,like Pabongka Rinpoche, as being sectarian. Indirectly, this is putting down Je Tsongkapa's pure and complete teachings of the Dharma as  a source of sectarianism.

Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche had painstakingly put together all the important lineages of sutra and tantra which he held and passed them all down mainly to his heart disciple, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who had then passed them down to his heart sons, like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. Thus, it was Pabongka Rinpoche who with foresight ensured that Je Tsongkapa's and the Gelug Lineage teachings survived the Chinese invasion of Tibet and would be preserved for posterity, by being passed down from teacher to root disciples.

Unfortunately because of the ban on Shugden and the condemnation of illustrious and influential Gelug Masters, like Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who had been devoted Shugden practitioners and had strenuously worked to pass the Shugden lineage to their disciples, "people throughout the Buddhist world  are beginning to have doubts about the general Dharma of the Gelug tradition, and in particular the Dharma of Je Pabongka and Trijang Rinpoche"(according to one of the last surviving great Gelug Masters, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso).   

Dorje Shugden arose as an uncommon Protector, mainly to protect Je Tsongkapa's teachings which are so vital for beings of this degenerate age. If the ban isn't lifted soon enough, He will not be able to save Je Tsongkapa's teachings from severe decline and possible extinction, much to the loss of beings of this degenerate age.

Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2012, 03:34:54 AM »
There is no ban. HHDL just advised us as per his duty as the spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism not to practice Dhogyal. He didn't force us to give up.

If you persist by saying there is a ban, well it's not logical. You don't see the press, police, govt or NGO organizations mentioning anything about a ban by HHDL. Are they all blind, deaf, dumb and mute? Of course not, there is no ban except in the minds of the paranoid.

Everyone should listen to the advice of HHDL. He gains no benefit from advising against dhogyal from the genuine concern for us.

There is a difference in advising and a ban. A ban that does not exist.


michaela

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2012, 04:42:58 AM »
Dear Tenzin Gyatso

Please watch this documentaries.  It is obvious that the discrimination against Shugdenpas is in the air and it is mentioned in the press.  This is a true discrimination based on faith.

If you said there is no ban, you are in denial.

Thank you.

The Shugden Outcasts Small | Large



Ensapa

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Re: Why The Ban Should Be Lifted
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2012, 08:06:51 AM »
As an addendum, the ban should be lifted because a lot of people are destroying their spirituality due to the ban. They are denouncing other Buddhists and attacking them. To criticize another lama or another tradition just because they are different from yours is not a Buddhist thing to do. I would not do that at all, even towards those who are pro Dalai Lama and anti Dorje Shugden. Also, in addition to that, at this time and age, Dorje Shugden is much needed by people of our time, who does not need to be protected against exterior harm, but from mental wars and confusions on the inside, and Dorje Shugden is excellent to help resolve those.