Author Topic: 11th Panchen Lama  (Read 16600 times)

Ensapa

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11th Panchen Lama
« on: June 06, 2012, 02:05:37 PM »
Here's some interesting news about China's 11th Panchen Lama:

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The 11th Panchen Lama talks with a Taoist at the CPPCC meeting venue.

Although this is his third time to attend China's most important political event, the 11th Panchen Lama still draws attention from his fellow political advisors.

On Monday afternoon, neatly clad in a saffron monk robe, the 22-year-old Tibetan monk joined other members of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) in a panel discussion on the government work report, which was delivered by Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao in the morning, as well as budget reports.

The 10-day annual session of the CPPCC National Committee opened here on Saturday.

During the two-and-a-half-hour discussion, he carefully read the reports and occasionally took notes.

"He took it very seriously, underlined all contents related to religion," said Tang Chengqing, a political advisor who sat next to him at the meeting.

Although a young man, the 11th Panchen Lama is one of the two most senior living Buddhas in Tibet and has been a member of the CPPCC National Committee, China's top political advisory body, since 2010.

"He seemed a bit boyish when first attending the session," said Fang Xingyao, a fellow political advisor. "Over the past two years he has grown up a lot to become a young man with good manners and modesty."

A staff member who has worked with him for three years, but prefers to remain anonymous, shared Fang's feelings.

"These years he has not only grew taller but also developed into a more composed personality," she said.

Li Xin, an assistant serving water and tea at the session, found the 11th Panchen Lama a bit different from what she expected.

"He is very polite and easygoing. He gestured to thank me each time I added water in his cup," she said.

Jemi Namgyal, CPPCC National Committee member and Lhasa deputy mayor, used to work with the late 10th Panchen Lama and is also acquainted with the 11th Panchen Lama.

"He has become more and more like his predecessor as he progresses in Buddhist practice and gaining charisma," he said. "He is popular wherever he goes. Followers come to ask for blessings or religious instruction."

At the opening of the second World Buddhist Forum in 2009, the Panchen Lama gave a speech in English, impressing many.

"He speaks English quite well. Or you can say he is quick at learning language," said Master Xuecheng, political advisor and vice head of the Buddhist Association of China.

However, gaining maturity has not affected the young monk's amiable personality, and he often gave big smiles when other participants made interesting comments during the discussion.

"He likes to smile and is very positive," Jemi Namgyal said.

At the age of five, the boy with the secular name Gyaincain Norbu, won approval from the central government of China as the reincarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama after a lot-drawing ceremony among three candidates in the Jokhang Temple in Tibet's capital city of Lhasa in 1995.

Since then he has left his family in Lhari county in northern Tibet's Nagqu prefecture.

The reincarnation of the Panchen Lama, together with that of the Dalai Lama, top the reincarnation system of living Buddhas in Tibet which distinguishes Tibetan Buddhism from other religions or other schools of Buddhism.

"People expect him to carry on the will of the 10th Panchen Lama and work for ethnic harmony and unity," Jemi Namgyal said.


brian

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2012, 02:42:56 AM »
"At the age of five, the boy with the secular name Gyaincain Norbu, won approval from the central government of China as the reincarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama after a lot-drawing ceremony among three candidates in the Jokhang Temple in Tibet's capital city of Lhasa in 1995."

What does it mean by "lot drawing ceremony"?? I came to know re the controversy behind this reincarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama, apparently he is not the one that HH Dalai Lama picked as the "real" reincarnation and yet China chosed him (Gyaincain Norbu) among the other two and have him staying in China.

I read it from somewhere that High Lamas would normally have a few reincarnations during one lifetime and the so called "real" one will be authenticated by HHDL after a few rounds of tests on the boy. In this case, I was surprised to read the word "lot drawing ceremony". I am thinking is this boy the real reincarnation because he was not authenticated by HHDL because HHDL chosed another one whom China ignored. 

Ensapa

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2012, 10:33:35 AM »
"At the age of five, the boy with the secular name Gyaincain Norbu, won approval from the central government of China as the reincarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama after a lot-drawing ceremony among three candidates in the Jokhang Temple in Tibet's capital city of Lhasa in 1995."

What does it mean by "lot drawing ceremony"?? I came to know re the controversy behind this reincarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama, apparently he is not the one that HH Dalai Lama picked as the "real" reincarnation and yet China chosed him (Gyaincain Norbu) among the other two and have him staying in China.

I read it from somewhere that High Lamas would normally have a few reincarnations during one lifetime and the so called "real" one will be authenticated by HHDL after a few rounds of tests on the boy. In this case, I was surprised to read the word "lot drawing ceremony". I am thinking is this boy the real reincarnation because he was not authenticated by HHDL because HHDL chosed another one whom China ignored.

The lot drawing ceremony here refers to a divination urn that Emperor Qianlong used to select the candidates of some lamas. Needless to say this urn would be blessed and consecrated by his Guru Chankya Rolpa Dorje for this purpose. Which is why if it is done according to the correct procedures and also by a lama who is qualified, i dont think the results would be inaccurate.

The entire panchen lama issue is interesting to me because HHDL for sure would know that China will hide the incarnation which he chooses but yet he points that one out and as a result he goes into hiding and China proceeds to pick their own panchen lama. It was only after Dalai Lama picked someone that China also picked their own panchen lama. Odd? or maybe HHDL intended China to do exactly that?

But there are some interesting points with China's panchen lama: the Tibetans claim and would like the whole world to believe that the process was rigged and he is just some regular person, but can a regular person develop himself to be able to lead the world buddhist council in China or be able to complete his geshe examinations at the age of 20? This is really something to think about.

Another interesting inconsistency is that CTA claims that gyancain norbu's parents are in fact, chinese officials when they were just normal tibetans living in China. Why warp the truth CTA?! You guys lie too much for us to believe you.

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Gyaincain Norbu was born on Februry 13, 1990, the year of snake (October 19, the 17th year of Earth and Ox according to Tibetan calander). Born in March 1969, Gyaincain Norbu's father Soinam Chaghba was a county cadre of Lhari. The mother Sanggyai Zhoima was born in June 1963, and worked in a bookstore. Both the parents were from ordinary grazing families.

Ensapa

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2012, 10:35:21 AM »
I also found an account of his reincarnation process here:

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  In 1994, search for the soul boy entered a crucial stage.

    On February 24, the leading panel on the search work sent three teams to visit secretly Tibet, Qinghai, Gansu, Sichuan and Yunnan (Tibetan-inhabited areas in China) to find the soul boy. They were looking for bright, healthy, smart boys who were born in 1989, 1990, or 1991.

    The first group led by Living Buddha Bilong went to Qinghai, Gansu and Aba Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture in Sichuan Province; the second led by Geqin headed for east Tibetan Changdu prefecture, Tibetan prefectures in Yunan Province, and Ganzi Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture in Sichuan; the last group led by Gajin searched in Shanna, Nagqu prefectures and Lhasa in Tibet.

    The search area for the soul boy covered more than two million sq km with stretching snow-capped mountains, criss-crossing rivers and vast pastures. Weather in those areas was mostly cold, and the air rarefied. All those made the trips hard. Besides, to pick up the authentic reincarnation from numerous boys was like picking up a needle in a bottle of hay.

    The searchers launched an extensive investigation into intelligent boys born during the 1989-1991 period. They wrote down their birthdays, extraordinary behaviors, temperaments of their parents and family backgrounds; also recorded were the location of the boys' hometown, shape of their houses, and landscapes near their hometown, for instance mountains and trend of rivers, etc.

    The eminent monks narrowed down the searching scope based on the information collected, plus images observed while watching lakes, and results of divination.

    The first search went for 54 days, during which over 40 counties were visited, and 18 extraordinary boys were documented.

    In September of the same year, the second search started. A team led by Gaqin paid a secret visit to north Tibetan Nagqu and the city and counties of Lhasa; another led by Bilong visited Shanna and Nyingchi prefectures. The search took more than 30 days, and another seven boys were found.

    To make the result accurate and impartial, the leading panel sent the eminent monks to cross-visit documented boys. The third visit lasted for over 20 days, during which the monks carefully checked the intelligent boys one by one.

    After three secret interviews, 28 remarkably perspicacious boys were chosen from 46 candidates. By synthesizing information collected from lake-observing, interviews, divination, results of the boys' identifying the late Panchen's personal belongings, the Tashilhunpo lamas and leading work panel selected seven highly possible boys and five likely ones who are yet to be verified. At last, three finalists with most distinctive brilliance were singled out to join the draw-lot-from-a-gold-urn ceremony.

    Lhari County in Nagqu Prefecture in Tibet is the birthplace of the 11th Panchen Erdeni Gyaincain Norbu. The county is seated at the foot of a snow-capped mountain covered with cypress. There are two more snow-capped mountains nearby. In Lhari's vicinity there is a clear lake, by which seated a small buddhist pogoda and a lamasery.

    The scenery of Lhari resembled images the lake-observers had seen in the holy lakes. The Living Buddha Gongtangcang from Gansu Province once had a dream, in which he and the 10th Panchen were riding horses. Gongtangcang asked the master where they were heading for, and the latter replied home. The two rode across a pasture and reached a river. The Panchen crossed the river on his horse first, and said on the other side to Gongtangcang: I'm home, come on over. Seeing across the river a mountain covered with woods with a Tibetan house underneath and a lake, Gongtangcang got off his horse and waded through the river, but woke up the moment he set foot in the cold water.

    Later, it was generally believed that 10th Panchen delivered the dream to Living Buddha Gongtangcang as an indication of his reincarnation's birthplace, which was exactly Lhari.

    Gyaincain Norbu was born on Februry 13, 1990, the year of snake (October 19, the 17th year of Earth and Ox according to Tibetan calander). Born in March 1969, Gyaincain Norbu's father Soinam Chaghba was a county cadre of Lhari. The mother Sanggyai Zhoima was born in June 1963, and worked in a bookstore. Both the parents were from ordinary grazing families.

    Sanggyai Zhoima was only eight months and ten days pregnant when she gave birth to Gyaincain Norbu. She recalled that on the day of the boy's birth a white poodle went from nowhere into her yard and wouldn't stop yelling. Sanggyai Zhoima's first born, a boy, threw pebbles at the dog to chase it away. However, the dog refused to leave, and Zhoima's belly hurt every time the boy hit the dog. She then asked the boy to let go and stopped hitting the dog. At dusk Zhoima gave birth to a boy with fair skin, fine features and dark, shinny eyes. Zhoima's father, a lama, and thought the boy resembled a Buddha, thus named him Gyaincain Norbu, which means in Tibetan "victory streamer of gods."

    Several months after Gyaincain Norbu's birth, a little bird dazzling as a peacock hovered over his house and rested on the roof, which locals regarded as an auspiciou sign.

    There was another time when Sanggyai Zhoima left the boy who was then eight-month-old to a teacher's nurse for custody. The teacher accidentally found a Tibetan character pronounced "ah" formed by the lines of the boy's tongue. The character stands for Buddha in Tibetan Buddhism, and is deemed sacred.

    On the same night, Sanggyai Zhoima had a dream, in which she toured the fairyland with the goddess White Tara. The beauty of monasteries and halls she saw were beyond description. In the dream the goddess handed her Gyaincain Norbun and then vanished. On hearing this, a living Budhha of a local monastery came to visit. After observing the boy closely, he told Sanggyai Zhoima in an earnest way that the boy was probably an incarnated high-ranking Buddha. The mother was told to dress the boy neatly, feed him with clean food, and take good care of him.

    Just after Gyaincain Norbu began to talk, a family guest teased him by asking, "what is your name?"

    The boy replied with a smile, "I'm Panchen."

    The guest couldn't keep his mouth shut, and marveled, "the boy is miraculous!" The news soon spreaded, and Gyaincain Norbu was considered an extraordinary boy from then on.

    Several years after, searchers from the Tashilhunpo Monastery arrived at Lhari County following indications of lake observation and divination. They soon learned about Gyaincain Norbu. To their repeated observation, the boy was extremely brilliant, had solemn and gentle temperament, fine features and a healthy body. The searchers also noticed that Gyaincain Norbu had a favor for religious wares, and always posed as if he was blowing a shell trumpet or delivering a sermon. He also liked to lay hands upon his brother's head to "bless" him.

    The searchers casually asked Gyaincain Norbu who was playing with his brother: "what is you name?"

    Gyaincain Norbu raised his head, saying, "My name is Panchen Erdeni."

    "Do you have a monastery?"

    The boy smiled. "Of course, it's Tashilhunpo."

    In September 1994, a high-ranking lama Gaqin Bianna visited Sanggyai Zhoim's home as an ordinary guest. He found that the Tibetan character "tsa" he discerned while observing the lake was in the name of Gyaincain Norbu's father. The monk was in his 70s, and had a seriously nearsighted eye. He bended down toward the child, who said unexpectedly: "I know you." Another time the searchers were having dinner in the boy's home, during which Gyaincain Norbu picked up a wooden bowl of a monk, saying, "I have a similar one in Tashilhunpo."

    After comprehensive consideration, the monks generally agreed that Gyaincain Norbu was qualified to attend the draw-lot-from-a-gold-urn ceremony, and considered him the most likely one to be the reincarnation of the late Panchen. As it turned out as expected, at the draw-lot-from-a-gold-urn ceremony held at the Jokhang Monastery in Lhasa, Gyaincain Norbu was chosen by Sakyamuni Buddha.


how true is it or if the Chinese made an extremely elaborate story based on Kundun, I have no idea, but it is interesting to know.

Galen

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2012, 06:46:02 PM »
The 11th Panchen Lama is impressive. At this very young age, he has attended 3 huge meeting organised by the Chinese government to be amongst those imposing Chinese govenrment officials. This is no easy feat for someone so young. This shows that he is special. With his inclusion into these important meetings with the Chinese Government means that China is considering Buddhism very important in China. This is good news because this will ensure that Buddhism will spread again in China!

I have read somewhere that high lamas can emanate into few emanations. So, in this case, there is possibility that the 10th Panchen Lama has emanated into the 3 finalist boys. So, no matter who was selected through the golden Urn process, he will be correct the Panchen Lama. This is how powerful enlightened beings are. So far, he has proven himself.

Thank you Ensapa for including the story of the 11th Panchen Lama. It s most interesting.

brian

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2012, 10:31:07 AM »
Quote

The lot drawing ceremony here refers to a divination urn that Emperor Qianlong used to select the candidates of some lamas. Needless to say this urn would be blessed and consecrated by his Guru Chankya Rolpa Dorje for this purpose. Which is why if it is done according to the correct procedures and also by a lama who is qualified, i dont think the results would be inaccurate.

The entire panchen lama issue is interesting to me because HHDL for sure would know that China will hide the incarnation which he chooses but yet he points that one out and as a result he goes into hiding and China proceeds to pick their own panchen lama. It was only after Dalai Lama picked someone that China also picked their own panchen lama. Odd? or maybe HHDL intended China to do exactly that?

But there are some interesting points with China's panchen lama: the Tibetans claim and would like the whole world to believe that the process was rigged and he is just some regular person, but can a regular person develop himself to be able to lead the world buddhist council in China or be able to complete his geshe examinations at the age of 20? This is really something to think about.

Another interesting inconsistency is that CTA claims that gyancain norbu's parents are in fact, chinese officials when they were just normal tibetans living in China. Why warp the truth CTA?! You guys lie too much for us to believe you.

Quote

Thank you Ensapa for the explaination. I feel HH Dalai Lama must have been able to foretell that the one chosen by him would be running away. this way, China will surely come up with another which will create all the controversy as CTA would make it an issue that the one chosen by China is not the REAL one. so in this case, i am now sure there are something behind this choosing the reincarnation issue which is actually quite interesting if deeper thought to be given on it. CTA makes too much lies and creating Tibetan community unrest rather than protecting them.

But it was good to see the China chosen Panchen Lama doing something great at his tender age of 20, in a way i am proud of him. i myself would not be able to have done that. LOL! China are really considering Buddhism to be vital in their community development really. There have been public religious forums and talks being held all over China. I feel this is encouraging and more and more Chinese gets to practice Buddhism and Dorje Shugden.

Vajraprotector

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 09:43:22 PM »
Whether or not this Panchen Lama is "real", one thing's for sure is that China is grooming him to be a leader, whether the Tibetans like it or not. Gyaincain Norbu is the vice president of the Buddhist Association of China and a member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. Also, as long as the government accepts this Panchen Lama, the majority of the Chinese nationals will accept him as their leader/ advisor. 

The only complain I have heard so far is from the representative to the Dalai Lama, who said that Gyaincain Norbu lacks legitimacy in the eyes of the Tibetan people, who are forced to attend his ceremonies. I believe nothing is going to stop the 11th Panchen Lama, and he already had his first meeting with foreign diplomats/representatives on September 14, 2010. The foreign minister of Singapore, George Yeo, became the first foreign member of government to meet officially with Gyaincain Norbu, at the Xihuang Monastery in Beijing.           

Ensapa

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 01:15:58 PM »
Whether or not this Panchen Lama is "real", one thing's for sure is that China is grooming him to be a leader, whether the Tibetans like it or not. Gyaincain Norbu is the vice president of the Buddhist Association of China and a member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. Also, as long as the government accepts this Panchen Lama, the majority of the Chinese nationals will accept him as their leader/ advisor. 

The only complain I have heard so far is from the representative to the Dalai Lama, who said that Gyaincain Norbu lacks legitimacy in the eyes of the Tibetan people, who are forced to attend his ceremonies. I believe nothing is going to stop the 11th Panchen Lama, and he already had his first meeting with foreign diplomats/representatives on September 14, 2010. The foreign minister of Singapore, George Yeo, became the first foreign member of government to meet officially with Gyaincain Norbu, at the Xihuang Monastery in Beijing.           

With this much power and this much trust that China has invested in the 11th Panchen, and him being able to carry it all up, it is pretty clear what China knows and is doing: they know the potential of the 11th Panchen Lama and they are doing what they can to give him space to manifest as much Dharma work as his predecessor but at this rate he can only grow.

If he was a fake one, no doubt that he would have caved in by now to pressure and have nervous breakdowns and such. The fact that he did not shows us that he is indeed either the real incarnation or someone who is very strong mentally inside and a genius as well, to be able to complete the Geshe examinations at such a young age. To me, that is proof in more ways than one.

This ties in with an earlier post that I mentioned earlier that real tulkus do no need CTA's recognition to be able to carry out their predecessor's works, they are still equally powerful and equally able to benefit people and other sentient beings. the recognition does not change much things for them. Perhaps Panchen Lama split himself into 2 incarnations so that he can control China with one and use the other as a dud, I am not sure, but it sure is working well.

Nobody cares if the CTA does not accept China's Panchen Lama if he can carry on the work of his predecessor perfectly and it would soon make CTA look bad if he can prove their rumors and bad mouthing wrong. It would be nice to see CTA reacting in a more comely manner by saying that they do not recognize the Panchen Lama and just stop at there and not go on on how he is a fake etc.

Big Uncle

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2012, 03:18:48 PM »
Actually, I do think that the current 11th Panchen Lama is a real Tulku. His bearing, charisma and behavior reveals himself to be a High Lama. More importantly, many Dorje Shugden Lamas, some known for their clairvoyance like Kyabje Gangchen Rinpoche and also high Lamas like Gaden Trisur Rinpoche Lungrik Namgyal had sought audience and taken photos with the Panchen Lama. These Lamas are in effect, recognizing the Panchen Lama.

It is not unusual that there are 2 or more simultaneous emanations of the Panchen Lama just like the Karmapa situation. I feel that the other Panchen Lama is a smokescreen, specifically emanated to distract the Chinese during a time when the Chinese were probably less tolerant as it is today. Whatever it is, it is certain that current Panchen Lama will be a great High Lama and will play a pivotal role with the resurgence of Buddhism within China. Perhaps, he will be actively promoting Dorje Shuden to the Chinese in the future.                                                       

Ensapa

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2012, 10:23:52 AM »
Actually, I do think that the current 11th Panchen Lama is a real Tulku. His bearing, charisma and behavior reveals himself to be a High Lama. More importantly, many Dorje Shugden Lamas, some known for their clairvoyance like Kyabje Gangchen Rinpoche and also high Lamas like Gaden Trisur Rinpoche Lungrik Namgyal had sought audience and taken photos with the Panchen Lama. These Lamas are in effect, recognizing the Panchen Lama.

It is not unusual that there are 2 or more simultaneous emanations of the Panchen Lama just like the Karmapa situation. I feel that the other Panchen Lama is a smokescreen, specifically emanated to distract the Chinese during a time when the Chinese were probably less tolerant as it is today. Whatever it is, it is certain that current Panchen Lama will be a great High Lama and will play a pivotal role with the resurgence of Buddhism within China. Perhaps, he will be actively promoting Dorje Shuden to the Chinese in the future.                                                     

My sentiments as well because to me the current Panchen Lama manifests more and more like the actual Panchen Lama as opposed to doing nothing and giving up. Now this is funny that the CTA gets another expose that they are lying again! And having a huge smear campaign against the Panchen Lama will not help them much but bring them more negative karma to go down, down, down..

Yup, the Dalai Lama has clairvoyance and he does know what will happen, so why would he want the real Panchen Lama to be put in hiding? That is illogical by all means and by all accounts, in more ways than one right? And somehow China's Panchen Lama does more and more and more work like his predecessors, as opposed to keeping quiet and disappearing.

If the 11th Panchen Lama is the actual incarnation, he will be promoting Dorje Shugden openly very soon. Also, the Dalai Lama cannot openly recognize China's Panchen Lama or else the Chinese will be suspicious at this point of time. Perhaps in the near future where negotiations between China and Dharamsala improve, Dalai Lama will openly recognize him as the real Panchen Lama.

Vajraprotector

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2012, 02:56:57 PM »
Ensapa, your question really makes me contemplate - why would the Dalai Lama want the real Panchen Lama to be put in hiding? He may indeed be a real incarnation.

Initially, I too had the mentality that the Chinese Panchen Lama is a "puppet" until I saw the videos on this website. These videos convinced me that whether or not the Chinese Panchen Lama is the real Panchen Lama, he has been groomed to lead and does have the charisma and given the authority to do so. After all, Tulkus are not "the chosen ones", they too went through many lifetimes of study and practising to become who they were/are.

I believe that for a Tulku to become a great teacher, there is the nature and nurture influence. If the real Panchen Lama is put under house arrest and not allowed to develop and continue his training to become a great teacher, then no matter how great the real Panchen Lama is, we will never be able to come into contact with this great teacher if he's confined and restricted in what he can/ cannot do, and he may not be able to do much.

Just a simple example to illustrate. China is known for excellent medal-winning athletes who are dutiful ambassadors, obediently spent their lives in pursuit of patriotic glory. For this purpose, they have the state-run sports system — a bureaucracy of training schools, teams and government organizations that selects and coaches more than 250,000 young people for the purpose of winning gold medals.

Below is what Chen Lu, Olympist medalist figure skater and 1995 World Champion said about training,
 “Training in China is very different than in the US,” Chen Lu explained. “The skaters move away from their families and live with their team. We had to live in a dormitory year after year and we couldn’t see our parents very much. And there were so many pressures from the coaches, and from the government – it is not easy. It’s totally different from in the United States.”

In comparison, to groom someone who will be the spokeperson for all of Tibetan Buddhism in China that can rival the Dalai Lama, I am sure the training will be much more intense and it's a "make it or break it" situation as they cannot just recognise another candidate as the Panchen Lama. So at the end, if we have a great teacher who will lead millions in the Dharma path, whether or not he is the real Tulku, does it matter after all?

Ensapa

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2012, 04:43:53 PM »
Ensapa, your question really makes me contemplate - why would the Dalai Lama want the real Panchen Lama to be put in hiding? He may indeed be a real incarnation.

Initially, I too had the mentality that the Chinese Panchen Lama is a "puppet" until I saw the videos on this website. These videos convinced me that whether or not the Chinese Panchen Lama is the real Panchen Lama, he has been groomed to lead and does have the charisma and given the authority to do so. After all, Tulkus are not "the chosen ones", they too went through many lifetimes of study and practising to become who they were/are.

I believe that for a Tulku to become a great teacher, there is the nature and nurture influence. If the real Panchen Lama is put under house arrest and not allowed to develop and continue his training to become a great teacher, then no matter how great the real Panchen Lama is, we will never be able to come into contact with this great teacher if he's confined and restricted in what he can/ cannot do, and he may not be able to do much.

Just a simple example to illustrate. China is known for excellent medal-winning athletes who are dutiful ambassadors, obediently spent their lives in pursuit of patriotic glory. For this purpose, they have the state-run sports system — a bureaucracy of training schools, teams and government organizations that selects and coaches more than 250,000 young people for the purpose of winning gold medals.

Below is what Chen Lu, Olympist medalist figure skater and 1995 World Champion said about training,
 “Training in China is very different than in the US,” Chen Lu explained. “The skaters move away from their families and live with their team. We had to live in a dormitory year after year and we couldn’t see our parents very much. And there were so many pressures from the coaches, and from the government – it is not easy. It’s totally different from in the United States.”

In comparison, to groom someone who will be the spokeperson for all of Tibetan Buddhism in China that can rival the Dalai Lama, I am sure the training will be much more intense and it's a "make it or break it" situation as they cannot just recognise another candidate as the Panchen Lama. So at the end, if we have a great teacher who will lead millions in the Dharma path, whether or not he is the real Tulku, does it matter after all?

In all honesty, I dont believe that it matters at all whether or not that the panchen lama is real or fake as long as many people are benefitting from him. Recognition is not really that important. If the panchen lama that the Dalai Lama chose was the real one he would be doing something already by now to try and benefit other people and to find ways to spread the Dharma.

But if he just disappears and does not do any activity, it could be that he's dead or just a smokescreen so that the Chinese government will be distracted and not focus. If the Dalai Lama endorses the real Panchen Lama then China will not support that one on purpose. To me, I rather look at the actions of the Panchen Lama instad of depending on recognition.

Hmm, yes. I prefer that to a lot. How come the Karmapa issue cant be solved with the same way? People can just observe both Karmapas to see which one's activity resembles the 16th Karmapa's actions the most and that is the real karmapa...so whats the issue there? To be honest, from my standpoint, i dont understand the problem at all from this point of view.

For whatever reasons China is promoting their Panchen Lama, it is clear that there is benefit, and as much as China forcefully trains their athletes, I dont think you can force someone to study the Dharma and be perfect in it, and that this person can actually be consistent. But I guess time will tell if that is the case or that this is the real Panchen Lama.

dsiluvu

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2012, 10:41:52 PM »
The entire panchen lama issue is interesting to me because HHDL for sure would know that China will hide the incarnation which he chooses but yet he points that one out and as a result he goes into hiding and China proceeds to pick their own panchen lama. It was only after Dalai Lama picked someone that China also picked their own panchen lama. Odd? or maybe HHDL intended China to do exactly that?

But there are some interesting points with China's panchen lama: the Tibetans claim and would like the whole world to believe that the process was rigged and he is just some regular person, but can a regular person develop himself to be able to lead the world buddhist council in China or be able to complete his geshe examinations at the age of 20? This is really something to think about.


Yes Ensapa... I have been thinking along these points as well. The 11th Panchen Lama sure is no ordinary person. It is not easy to fill the big shoes of such a highly attained being. I am certain he is definitely "somebody" otherwise he definitely He could not be groomed so easily and have the charisma to attract so many no matter how much the Chinese govt promote him, if he was "ordinary". Think about it, to obtain a geshe degree at such a young age sure tells us a lot about his ability, what more to have that kind of ability to teach in public and soon we will see him giving initiations.

Yes I believe there could be more then one emanation of the Panchen Lama as we have commonly learn that these attained beings can do just that. And I am sure His Holiness would have seen all this coming and surely He would have premeditated the whole thing.

Now a days we do not hear so much talks about looking for the real Panchen Lama any more... the world is slowly starting to accept this 11th Panchen Lama... and His path to bringing Buddhism to China and the world has already begun by meeting all these foreign leaders. No doubt we are witnessing history in the making of a grand Buddhist leader, one on par with the Dalai Lama. In fact as the Dalai Lama slowly retires more and more, the Panchen Lama emerges more and more.... a coincident? Seems like the next person to lead Buddhism globally after His Holiness passes. 

Positive Change

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2012, 01:45:00 PM »
Actually, I do think that the current 11th Panchen Lama is a real Tulku. His bearing, charisma and behavior reveals himself to be a High Lama. More importantly, many Dorje Shugden Lamas, some known for their clairvoyance like Kyabje Gangchen Rinpoche and also high Lamas like Gaden Trisur Rinpoche Lungrik Namgyal had sought audience and taken photos with the Panchen Lama. These Lamas are in effect, recognizing the Panchen Lama.

It is not unusual that there are 2 or more simultaneous emanations of the Panchen Lama just like the Karmapa situation. I feel that the other Panchen Lama is a smokescreen, specifically emanated to distract the Chinese during a time when the Chinese were probably less tolerant as it is today. Whatever it is, it is certain that current Panchen Lama will be a great High Lama and will play a pivotal role with the resurgence of Buddhism within China. Perhaps, he will be actively promoting Dorje Shuden to the Chinese in the future.                                                     


If indeed there are 2 simultaneous emanations of the Panchen Lama, thats twice the benefit... rejoice! And as mentioned by Big Uncle, the very fact that these highly attained Dorje Shugden Lama's known for their clairvoyance such as Kyabje Gangchen Rinpoche and also high Lamas like Gaden Trisur Rinpoche Lungrik Namgyal) has sought an audience and had paid their respect to the 11th Panchen Lama is indeed a form of recognition!

I am sure the emanation "recognised" by the Chinese will indeed by a force to be reckoned with in the near future. I am confident, perhaps the 11th Panchen Lama will indeed be the forefront of the spread of Dorje Shugden in China and beyond. Imagine Dorje Shugden's practice taking firm roots in China (returning to the motherland of sorts!) and spreading throughout the Chinese populace around the world. We all know how strong the Chinese culture is ingrained in whichever country they abide in eg. there is a Chinatown everywhere in the world!

Here the 11th Panchen Lama is seen highlighting the emergence of Dharma from ancient India and the need for its global promotion: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=13080

Ensapa

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Re: 11th Panchen Lama
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2012, 01:38:42 PM »
nowadays, there is very little talk about gedun chokyi nyima because everyone knows that after 10-15 years and no news, there is little or no hope about him. If he was actually killed, HHDL would have known and would have spoke about it and continue on the search for the next Panchen Lama. But HHDL is silent on this and he has not commented on this in any of his recent talks.

this does show something: that HHDL recognized one of the Panchen Lama's incarnation which was meant to be passive and quiet on purpose to distract the Chinese, unless of course HHDL is not clairvoyant and therefore, caused the real panchen lama to disappear or that he did that on purpose because he was not happy with panchen lama, therefore he caused him to disappear.

What is even odder in this is that HHDL recognized China's Karmapa, orgyen trinley even tho the rest of Tibet kept assuming and insisting that he is the fake karmapa, but why would he not want to do this for Panchen Lama and unite China and CTA, and make China happy with him as it shows that he sides them and he agrees with them and then perhaps negotiations can resume.

given the current decision, it is pretty much clear if HHDL recognized the current Panchen as the real Panchen Lama, China wont be able to accept it. I am thinking that perhaps when HHDL lifts the ban, he would openly acknowledge that chinese Panchen Lama is the real Panchen Lama as by then it would be too late for China to replace him, even if he was the real one.