Author Topic: An interesting case to study for us  (Read 6381 times)

Ensapa

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An interesting case to study for us
« on: May 22, 2012, 02:51:32 PM »
I have recently come across some really interesting material on the net and I've decided to share it with you guys here. Lets discuss this, shall we?

This is the kind of misinformation and rubbish that the CTA relies on and circulates amongst their followers and also scholars. Notice that most statements made lack a source, or lack compelling evidence, or lack details, or something that is misconstructed, that is very atypical of their officials.

mo divination by whom? harmed by Shugden? any proof of this? oh dear. mysterious evidence that is unsubstantiated. 

Quote
A CASE TO STUDY

By Tenzin Ragyal

The office of
His Holiness the Dalai Lama
Dharamsala, H.P. INDIA


A CASE TO STUDY

Since 1979 When His Holiness the Dalai Lama first advised against
the practice and propitiation of Dhogyal\Shugden, He has spoken on
this issue continuously.  However, some of the Shugden followers,
instead of paying attention to what His Holiness advised, carried
out many activities to propagate Shugden practice direct-ly and
indirectly.  This compelled His Holiness to be stricter since 1996.

As a matter of fact, within the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism the
practice and propitiation of Shugden is non existent in both the Ny-
ingmapa and the Kagyu schools.  It used to be propitiated in the
Sakya lineage in the past by a very small section of its followers.
However it was firmly restricted by their senior lamas before 1959,
and as a result there is hardly anyone who practices it today in
that school.  Its prac-tice became quite widespread in the Gelugpa
school in the past 20th century.  However, as a result of continuous
advice, year after year, by His Holiness, except for a small group
of thoughtless, conservative die-hards, the majority of the former
Shugden practitioners have fol-lowed His Holiness's advice and have
since then given up the practice.

Many ancient scholars, yogis and great masters, who were undisputed
authorities on Buddhism, have recognised Shugden as a Damsi, a
spirit born out of wrong prayers.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama too, strongly advises against the
practice and propitiation of this spirit for the following reasons:

1)       At the outset, it must be known that the Lord Buddha has set
the foundations of Buddhism on the basis of fundamental natural laws
like `The Two Foundational Truths', `The Four Noble Truths' and so
forth.  He preached that things including happiness and suffering
arise as a result of the basic laws of cause and effect.  As against
this those people who worship spirits in general and in particular
this disputed spirit Shugden, worship these spirits as if they are
more important than Buddha and proclaim that all fortunes and
misfortunes arise as a result of the powers of these spirits.  This
approach is totally contradictory to the principles of Buddhism and
such beliefs in fact become the cause of its decline.  His
Holiness's objective therefore is to stop such wrong forms of
practices.

2)       His Holiness always stresses that even though there are
minor differences in the philosophical interpretations of the
various religions, their main focus and message is to benefit others
by developing fundamental good human values like love, kindness,
selflessness, tolerance and compassion.  In view of this we must
cultivate respect and harmonious relations with all other
religions.  Given the fact that sentient beings have diverse mental
dispositions and inclinations all major religious traditions of the
world have made great contributions in the service of mankind in the
past.  In the future also these basic good human qualities, as
emphasised by all the major religions and traditions, will be of
tremendous benefit and in need at all levels, be it world peace,
communal harmony, or loving and friendly relationships between neigh-
bours and individuals.  Therefore if one asserts one's own religion
as the best religion for everyone, and does not hesitate to
criticise, condemn and insult other religions, there is no way we
can bring about world peace, social harmony and freedom from social
and communal tensions.


If we take Tibet as an example, His Holiness has always stressed
that all of its four schools (Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug) have
their origins in the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha.  Except for the
minor differences in terms of the times of their development and
emphasis on certain points and usage of terminologies, they all
follow Buddha and his teachings and their main goal is to benefit
all sentient beings.  Therefore these four schools should respect
each other and live harmoniously.

However the fanatic Dhogyal\Shugden followers say that only the Ge- lug
School is pure and they encourage people not to have anything to
do with the others.  They in fact scare people by saying that if
follow-ers of the Gelug School engage in the practice of Kagyu,
Nyingma and Sakya teaching, Shugden will punish and destroy them.
Thus they try to destroy and harm the harmonious spiritual bond
between the four religious schools and thus the unity of the Tibetan
community.  Their approach is similar towards other religious
traditions of the world like Hinduism, Christianity, Islam,
Confucianism and Bon (an ancient na-tive religion of Tibet).  This
will become apparent from the attached documents.


3)     The background history of Dhogyal goes that a rift grew
between Drakpa Gyaltsen and the 5th Dalai Lama and that Tulku Drakpa
Gyaltsen became a Drekpa (wrathful spirit) after his death.  In
other words a dead man's spirit turn-ed into a malevolent spirit.
As a result of evil prayers this spirit always harbours deep
animosity against the Gaden Phodrang (the Tibetan government headed
by the Dalai Lama) and always tries to harm it and create obstacles
to its activities.

4)        Whenever His Holiness visits various Tibetan settlements or
communities in India, many old and sick people who come to seek His
blessing inform Him that according to the mo divination they have
been harmed by Shugden. This clearly demonstrates that in essence
Shugden is a bad spirit who is bent on oppressing and harming simple
and helpless ordinary people.  Keeping all this view, His Holiness
the Dalai Lama, with His responsibility as the spiritual and
temporal leader of the Tibetan people, emphasises that the
Dhogyal\Shugden is not just an issue of a particular religious
school or the free-dom of faith.  Rather it concerns maintaining the
purity of the Buddha dharma in particular and friendly and
harmonious relations between different religious traditions of the
world and especially healthy and close relations among the four
schools of Tibetan Buddhism.

Phabongkhapa Dechen Nyingpo was a great and famous Gelugpa lama who
lived in the earlier part of the last century.  The Dhogyal issue
originally evolved in the 1650s A.D. during the time of the great
5th Dalai Lama, when Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen turned into an evil
spirit after his death.  However, this spirit and the whole issue
that is tied with it became almost faded away until the time of the
Phabongkha at the beginning of the last century.   Phabongkha
restarted the old con-troversy on Dhogyal and further disseminated
the propitiation of Dhogyal in Tibet.

With regard to Phabongkha's primary motivation, his outlook towards
other religious traditions and his objectives for starting this
movement, they are all clearly inscribed in a letter that he sent to
the then Chinese military general Lui Chun Tang of the Sichuan
province of China.  This letter could be found on page 451, 456 in
the "Cha" section of Phabongkha's volumes on "Miscellaneous Works".
For your convenience I have attached here copies of that letter in
its English translation.  If you study them you will be able to
understand the core of the matter without any further explanations.
It is in everybody's interest to take a strong and appropriate stand
and not to remain indifferent on the activities of Phabongkha's
followers and their cult groups and leaders like, e.g. NKT leader
Geshe (self-styled) Kelsang Gyatso in England, Serkong Thritrul in
Taiwan, Gangchen Lama in Italy, Drakgom Tulku in Nepal, Dema Gonsar
in Tibet, Gonsar Rin-poche in Swiss and Dorjee Shugden Society in
India and Nepal etc.

The primary objective in providing this information is not to dig
out what has happened in the past.  It is to draw attention to the
fact that even today, in this period of global religious harmony,
some short-sighted and narrow-minded people and groups are actively
adopting the path of fanaticism and religious intolerance.  It is a
task and responsibility of all of us to strongly discourage and act
against such forms of religious intolerance and fanaticism.

Tenzin Ragyal
Dharamsala, H.P. INDIA

Pabongkha Rinpoche's letters. Notice how it differs completely from the letter above.
Quote

1) A letter (Phabongkha) sent to the Chinese General, Lu Chu Tang in
the Earth Tibet Year


In these days most of the Emperors and kings misperceive the
barbaric religion as the best religion and have turned their backs
against the nectar of the Buddha's teaching and opened the gate wide
towards the lower realm for themselves and as well as their
subjects.  At such a time as a great leader and also because of your
strong prayers and merits, you have respected only Manjughosh
Tsongkhapa's teaching lineage, which is the core of the Buddha's
teachings, and put it on the crown of your head and held it firm at
your heart.  You have thus spread and propagated the unsullied
teaching in many provinces in-cluding your own and have sown the
seed of the path of liberation.  I am grateful to you and the more I
reflect the more my mind is flooded with rejoice and admiration like
the waves of oceans touching the sky.  Thank you very much. Still on
this earth many other faiths like HINDUISM, CHRISTIANITY,
ISLAM, KONGTSE, (CONFUSIONISM), BON (ancient native Tibetan
religion) etc. flourish and each of them claims their own system as
the best.  However, except in the teaching of the Buddha, all the
others do not have the path to liberation.  They do not even have
the potential to abandon even one type of afflictive emo-tions.
Even if they practice and uphold their faith in great hardship for a
long time, it will simply open the gate of the lower realm and no
positive result will be achieved at all from them.  It is only a
deceptive word showing what is not a path as a path.

Contrarily in the case of the Buddha's teaching, it easily bestows
the "State of Liberation and Omniscience", closes the door of
rebirth in samsara and lower realms and it is possible to eradicate
completely the 84,000 classes of afflictive emotions and their
propensities.  In this teaching, without requiring much hardship,
one can travel from a peaceful path to a peaceful fruit.  Since this
true teaching is always non-deceptive we should endeavour to make
our life meaningful from a long term perspective and follow only the
teaching of the Buddha.  Although this teaching has four tenets, it
is only the Prasangika Madhyamika which realises the unmistaken
emptiness, which is free from the abyss of permanence and nihilism,
and which is the ultimate and exact intention of the Buddha.

Although in the land of Tibet there are many different tenets like
that of Nyingma, Kugyu, Sakya, Gelugpa and so forth it is only the
Gelug School which establishes the unmistaken view of emptiness and
the Prasangika Madhyamika system which is the philosophy of
Nagarjuna.  It is not only the philosophical view but also in terms
of meditation it is the perfect meditation devoid of laxity and
torpor.  As for its behaviour it is again pure as it is practiced in
accordance with the vinaya teachings.  Thus it is only the Gelug
School which knows how to adopt the three: the view, the meditation,
the behaviour and in fact the complete teaching of the Buddha as one
integrated practice in the form of the stages of the path to
enlightenment.  Thus this system of teaching of Tsongkhapa is the
heart essence of the Buddha's teaching and is therefore like a
pinnacle of the victorious banner.  As such to uphold this teaching
by oneself and to disseminate it to others is the best and far-
reaching Boddhisattva way of practice.  As a great leader you have
done the best to spread this teaching in the province of China just
as you have done in the past.  And also in the regions of Kham you
have restored and further developed the teachings through various
means.  I will be grateful for your continuous noble Boddhisattva
conduct of upholding the responsibility of the Gelug School.


1.     Again a letter is sent to Lu Chu Tang in the Earth Rabbit
Year


Honest expression of the General presentation of Inner and Outer
Tenets of the World.

In general there are many religions in this world.  Every follower
thinks that his own faith is the best. However, if we honestly
examine, CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM are barbarism and therefore are the
worst and there is no other religion worse than these.  The non-
Buddhist systems like that of Kapila and Sankhya are slightly better
than the aforementioned faiths but they do not have the path to
liberation.  They may undertake great hardships like self-immolation
and jumping upon a trident but there is no path to liberation.  It
opens the gate to the lower realm.  The so-called Bonpo is also not
at all different from the other non-Buddhist faiths.  Far from
achieving liberation it opens the door of the lower realm.  Since
Confucianism is also not the teaching of the Buddha it simply gives
temporary happiness but not liberation.  As all these systems are
opposite to the Buddha's teachings, leave aside achieving
Buddhahood, they do not at all have the path to liberation.  One
cannot show even a single example of one who has achieved liberation
after having practiced these faiths.  Without exception most of them
fall into the unfathomable lower realms.  It is only Buddhism which
is the path of liberation.  Even in Buddhism, the compassionate
Buddha Shakya Muni knew that if the profound and ultimate truth of
emptiness is taught right at the outset, it would not be understood
by the followers.  Just as children are gradually taught, starting
from the alphabet, in the same way at first easily understandable
teachings are taught.  Therefore he first taught the Vaibhashika
Tenet System which explains grosser meanings of selflessness of
persons.  After that he taught the Sautantrika Tenet System which is
more profound than the previous one.  Then he taught the Mind Only
School, which is again more profound and which teaches the grosser
selflessness of phenomena.  It is this school which Thangsen Lama
propagated in China.  After that he taught the Madhyamika Tenet
System which explains the subtle selflessness, the ultimate view.
Here also we have Indian Acharya/Masters Bhavaviveka;
Shantarakshita, who even though they have entered the Madhyamika
philosophy could not fathom the meaning of very subtle emptiness,
the ultimate intention of the Buddha.  Thus they are mid-dling
Madhyamikas and they are known as the Svatantrika Madhyamikas.

And we also have Indian Acharyas like Buddhapalita and Chandrakirti
who had unmistakenly fathomed and realised the ultimate intention of
the Buddha, which was trail-blazed by Nagarjuna, and they are called
Prasangika Madhyamikas.  Regarding the path of liberation and
Buddhahood, there are two parts: wisdom and method.  All those tenet
systems below the Svatantrikas have found the unmistaken path of the
method but have failed to realise the ultimate view which is the wis-
dom aspect, and therefore they have not realised the ultimate
emptiness but just a facsimile.  Hence it is only the Prasangika
Madhyamika System which realises the unmistaken subtle emptiness,
the ultimate thought of the Buddha.

There is not even a single individual who has realised the subtle
emp-tiness without entering into the Prasangika System.  In the
absence of this realisation it is not possible to attain
enlightenment.  Therefore this Prasangika Madhyamika System, the
system of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti is the best, the supreme and
the peak among the four Buddhist Tenet Systems.  In Tibet there are
many systems of Buddhist teachings like Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya,
Jonang, Bodong and others.  All these are Buddhist teachings and
they all have wonderful methods of accumulation of merits,
purification of obstructions, meditation on deities and recitation
of mantras.  Through these practices one can achieve liberation.
Therefore these are a hundred thousand million times better than
Christianity, Islam and other non-Buddhist teachings.  However,
there is no system like that of Tsongkhapa's, which is complete,
unmistaken, profound and fast.

Although each of the Tibetan philosophical schools feel and assert
that their own philosophy is that of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti and
thus the philosophy of Prasangika, but, because of its very subtlety
the followers could not realise the main intention of their
preceding learned scholar practitioners and have thus erred.  Most
of them have become like the philosophy of Hvashang Mahayana.  By
becoming so one will fall into nihilism and will become the cause
for hell.  Therefore, in Tibet, except Tsongkhapa's philosophy, all
others are mistaken.  As such I can affirm that at present on this
earth and be-neath the sky it is only the refined gold, like
Manjushri Tsongkhapa's system which is alone totally faultless in
every aspect, be it the philosophical view, the meditation or the
conduct.  It is complete, profound and extensive and if one has the
knowledge and the ability to practice this teaching properly then
one will be able to attain Buddha-hood within twelve human years or
even in three years and three fortnights.  This can be sustained
through thousands of reasonings and references.  The core of the
teaching is the path to enlightenment alone.  While this wonderful
philosophy is existent many unfortunately adhere strongly to
inferior teachings.  Many such people are there in Tibet as well,
which is a clear indication of lack of merit.  The establishment of
Tsongkhapa's teaching, the core of the Buddha's teachings, in your
country is such a rare priviledge that even tens and hundreds of
millions of merits accumulated by Lord Indra and Brahma cannot equal
even a portion of this merit.  This is really fortunate.

vajratruth

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Re: An interesting case to study for us
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2012, 03:55:25 PM »
Thank you Ensapa.

This is yet another in an endless series of baseless and negative propaganda churned out by the anti-Shugden camp, aimed at deceiving the uninitiated. Frankly, if anyone were to examine what this people are saying about the great and enlightened Protector, and then proceed to investigate, they would immediately believe in Dorje Shugden.

It is a futile exercise to deal with each and every one of the silly misinformation stated here – this website is already full of solid evidence of facts and commentaries by scholars and high lamas, to counter the lies said about Dorje Shugden. However, I would like to offer some observations on the writing by Tenzin Ragyal:

•   First the writer said “many ancient scholars, yogis and great masters who were undisputed authorities on Buddhism, have recognized Shugden as a Damsi, a spirit born out of wrong prayers”.
My request is for the writer to identify who these undisputed authorities of Buddhism are, who claim that Dorje Shugden is a spirit.

To my knowledge the undisputed authorities of Buddhism are:

Pabongkha Rinpoche who wrote Liberation in the Palm of The Hand, Ling Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche who were so attained and recognized that they were chosen to be the Dalai Lama’s tutors, Zong Rinpoche who is also known to be the moving dictionary of Buddhism, and many more such as Ganchen Rinpoche, Lama Thubten Yeshe, Geshe Gelsang Gyatso, Kundeling Rinpoche and so on.

And they all practiced Dorje Shugden as a Buddha, and without any doubts saw the great Protector as a Buddha. The significance of these great Masters is that they are directly or indirectly the root Gurus of most of the accomplished teachers of Buddhism today.

•   Even the Dalai Lama received his teachings from Ling Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche, both of whom were well-recognized practitioners of Dorje Shugden.

So, if practicing Shugden meant Ling Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche were wrong in their practice of the Buddha’s teachings (since Tenzin Rakyal claims that Dorje Shugden is against the principles of Dharma), then everything that the Dalai Lama learned from them was also wrong.

Therefore what the Dalai Lama is practicing and teaching now is also wrong. At no point in time has the Dalai Lama stated that everything he learned from his teachers were wrong. If the Dalai Lama does not reject the teaching of his tutors, then he must by definition accept that what they taught him was in fact, completely correct.
If that is the case, the Dalai Lama must also accept the truth in what Trijang Rinpoche wrote in Music Delighting the Ocean of Practitioners:

“Yet all this talk is nothing but babbling speculation. Why? Because this great guardian of the teachings is well known to be the precious supreme emanation from Drepung monastery's upper house, Dragpa Gyaltsen, arising in a wrathful aspect. The proof is unmistaken. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, as is taught in the lineage, was the final birth in a reincarnation lineage that included the Mahasiddha Birwawa, the great Kashmiri Pandit Shakya Shri, the omniscient Buton, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and so forth; this is proven by valid scriptural quotation and reasoning. These great beings, from a definitive point of view, were already fully enlightened, and even to common appearances, every one of them was a holy being that attained high states of realization. What worse karma could there be than denying this and asserting that he was born in the preta (spirit) realm”?

Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Protector, not an evil spirit. And that Dalai Lama knows it.

•   If Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, how is it that the Dalai Lama refers to Dorje Shugden as a “Protector of Conqueror Manjushri’s teachings…who come from the abodes of Tushita, Kechara and so forth” in the Dalai Lama’s own words. Evidence is the Dalai Lam’s propitiation of the great Protector in his own composition called ‘Melody of Unceasing Vajra”?
And rather than “harbouring deep animosity against the Gaden Phodrang” as Tenzin Rakgal claims, The Dalai Lama himself propitiates Dorje Shugden to “further the happiness of beings in the Gaden Phodrang dominion”

•   It is true that all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism have their origins from the Buddha’s teachings. Practitioners of Dorje Shugden never disputed that. As for Dorje Shugden being opposed to the principles of Buddhism, the opposite is true.

Dorje Shugden is the protector of Tsongkhapa’s teachings. The same Tsongkhapa whom Shakyamuni predicted would revive the dharma when the practice of it has degenerated. Of course Dorje Shugden practitioners practice the entire dharma. Even the great Fifth Dalai Lama, His Holiness Ngawang Lobsang Gyatso, in the prayer he composed to Dorje Shugden, propiated Dorje Shugden to “always protect us with the Three Jewels [the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangkha]”. Is this an indication that the belief in Dorje Shugden contrary to the belief in the Buddha’s teachings? Clearly no.

•   As for the Pabongkha Letters, I see nothing wrong in what he wrote. He made statements of fact and at no point did he discredit the other schools of Buddhism. Pabongkha Rinpoche stated clearly that through the methods of the other schools one can achieve liberation.

But he believed that the view on emptiness by Nagajurna and Chandrakirti (the Prasangika Madhyamika) is the best to bring one to the ultimate thought of the Buddha. Pabongkha was simply reiterating what Tsongkhapa believed to be true.

Lama Tsongkhapa believed in the emphasis on the Mahayana principles of universal compassion as the fundamental spiritual orientation. He combined this with a strong emphasis on the cultivation of in-depth insight into the doctrine of emptiness as propounded by the Indian masters Nagarjuna and Candrakirti. Tsongkhapa, and said that these two aspects of the spiritual path, compassion and insight into wisdom, must be rooted in a wholehearted wish for liberation, all impelled by a genuine sense of renunciation. Tsongkhapa called these the Three Pincipal Aspects Of The Path, which he suggested was the basis of the pursuit of Vajrayana Buddhism.


It is quite amazing that even Pabongkha's words can be twisted to have a negative connotations. But then again, what else is new.

dsiluvu

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Re: An interesting case to study for us
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2012, 05:29:47 PM »
Thanks Ensapa for yet another interesting rubbish the CTA cooked up to make us realise how terribly illogical they can get. I guess they are running out of ideas and has resorted to more bogus logic. They must think the whole world thinks like them and is not educated and does not know how to research. Hey we got this website and GOOGLE!

One clear and simple evidence that the whole world can witness now... remember the claims that Dorje Shugden will shorten HHDL life... well he seem pretty fit to me and still very ALIVE! So why, while Dorje Shugden practice is spreading like wild fire and growing?

The other funny thing is like what Vajratruth mentioned... how can HHDL (believed to be an emanation of Chenrezig) did not see Dorje Shugden as evil and composed "Melody of Unceasing Vajra" with powerful praises that we say up until today. HHDL did not realise Dorje Shugden was evil during this life time not HH did during HH 5th either and actually regretted WROTE THIS PROPITIATION AFTER REALIZING THAT DORJE SHUGDEN WAS NOT A HARMFUL SPIRIT, AS HE HAD FIRST ASSUMED BECAUSE OF THE DISTURBING APPEARANCES THAT MANIFESTED AFTER TULKU DRAKPA GYALTSEN’S DEATH. He even made a statue of Dorje Shugden! http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=341

But now all so suddenly HHDL is saying all is wrong... He is infact saying He himself was wrong. Based on that same logic... couldn't HH be wrong now also? So in other words... anything HHDL say could possibly be wrong or unreliable. Hence all the more we should just follow our own root Guru advice, seems more stable there :)

Ensapa

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Re: An interesting case to study for us
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2012, 05:48:21 PM »
I love Vajratruth's dissertation of that ridiculous letter. As much as we know that there is something very wrong with it, many other people especially the groupies will see this as the truth despite all the loopholes and unsubstantiated claims that are present in such statements and "evidence". As a result, many of these groupies also do the same thing: talk without much proof or evidence on the subject matter.

It is just so twisted the way the CTA staff interpreted Pabongkha's letters to be sectarian and then assume that based on the Yellow Book (which is again translated with malicious undertones against Dorje Shugden) that Dorje Shugden is an assassin of sorts of practitioners who dont conform to the Gelugpa standard. The sad part of all of these is, people actually believe these materials only because they sound convincing!

There are many odd things within this letter alone that does not sound logical or buddhistic at all; for example, the author of the letter says that Dorje Shugden asserts that only Gelug is pure when this "assertion" is found in many liturgies of the Dharma protectors of other schools as well, especially those that are specific towards that certain school. Does this mean that the Dharma protector is sectarian as well? The line "Cause tradition X to grow and destroy all their enemies" is found everywhere...

For us, these materials provide a very valuable piece of ammunition as we get to understand the mentalities of the CTA people more and we can find ways to counter them more effectively. By knowing what exactly that they twist and contort from the source, we know the correct tool to cut it at its root and provide indisputable truth about Dorje Shugden to many others who do not know about this issue.

Vajraprotector

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Re: An interesting case to study for us
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2012, 02:58:23 PM »
It is just so twisted the way the CTA staff interpreted Pabongkha's letters to be sectarian and then assume that based on the Yellow Book (which is again translated with malicious undertones against Dorje Shugden) that Dorje Shugden is an assassin of sorts of practitioners who dont conform to the Gelugpa standard. The sad part of all of these is, people actually believe these materials only because they sound convincing!

There are many odd things within this letter alone that does not sound logical or buddhistic at all; for example, the author of the letter says that Dorje Shugden asserts that only Gelug is pure when this "assertion" is found in many liturgies of the Dharma protectors of other schools as well, especially those that are specific towards that certain school. Does this mean that the Dharma protector is sectarian as well? The line "Cause tradition X to grow and destroy all their enemies" is found everywhere...

I really feel disgusted when people accuse others as sectarian, as they themselves go about creating rumours and materials that condemn other tradition/ practices.

It is well known that liturgical formulas and religious texts related to propitiation of Dorje Shugden were created in the Sakya, Gelug, and Drugpa Kagyu Traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. So how can the rumours be true that followers of the Gelug School engage in the practice of Kagyu, Nyingma and Sakya teaching, Shugden will punish and destroy them.

So what about those in Sakya or Drugpa Kagyu who propitiate Dorje Shugden, if they practise or attend teachings by Gelug teachers then they will be destroyed too? Wow, Dorje Shugden and his entourage must be very busy keeping files and record of all practitioners and making sure they are filed under the correct lineage so that when they learn / study/ practise other lineages' teachings, then to be sure to send his entourage to "destroy" them. I don't think so!

So how do we determine if a protector or deity or practice belongs to a certain (and exclusively) that lineage only? Using Dorje Shugden practice as an example, which "lineage" is it actually? He is entrusted to protect the Geden tradition, but he was first propitiated by the Sakya, so how do we determine whether He is Gelug or Sakya? Another example, Vajrabhairava is one of the principal three meditational deities of the Gelug school, however there are also some Vajrabhairava terma revelations in the Nyingma and Kagyu schools. So which "lineage" is Vajrabhairava?

I hope people find something better to do than condemning other tradition. The same amount of hard work that was put to condemn others, could be put to good use by promoting real Dharma teachings and not spent on spreading rumours like this. 

Ensapa

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Re: An interesting case to study for us
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2012, 04:24:50 AM »
I really feel disgusted when people accuse others as sectarian, as they themselves go about creating rumours and materials that condemn other tradition/ practices.

It is well known that liturgical formulas and religious texts related to propitiation of Dorje Shugden were created in the Sakya, Gelug, and Drugpa Kagyu Traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. So how can the rumours be true that followers of the Gelug School engage in the practice of Kagyu, Nyingma and Sakya teaching, Shugden will punish and destroy them.

So what about those in Sakya or Drugpa Kagyu who propitiate Dorje Shugden, if they practise or attend teachings by Gelug teachers then they will be destroyed too? Wow, Dorje Shugden and his entourage must be very busy keeping files and record of all practitioners and making sure they are filed under the correct lineage so that when they learn / study/ practise other lineages' teachings, then to be sure to send his entourage to "destroy" them. I don't think so!

So how do we determine if a protector or deity or practice belongs to a certain (and exclusively) that lineage only? Using Dorje Shugden practice as an example, which "lineage" is it actually? He is entrusted to protect the Geden tradition, but he was first propitiated by the Sakya, so how do we determine whether He is Gelug or Sakya? Another example, Vajrabhairava is one of the principal three meditational deities of the Gelug school, however there are also some Vajrabhairava terma revelations in the Nyingma and Kagyu schools. So which "lineage" is Vajrabhairava?

I hope people find something better to do than condemning other tradition. The same amount of hard work that was put to condemn others, could be put to good use by promoting real Dharma teachings and not spent on spreading rumours like this.

Not only that, these sort of implications and accusations and assumptions on how nonsectarianism is supposed to be have a very, very adverse effect on practitioners. Namely, they will think that the right thing to do is to visit every single lama in town and get teachings from everyone, and eventually the student gets confused, burned out and leaves Vajrayana, claiming that it is too complicated or even worse, leave Buddhism altogether.Just read one of the many Buddhist forums around, and there would be many people who would claim that they used to be in Vajrayana, but found it too difficult to practice, too complicated or "not for them". If it was not for them, why were they attracted to it in the first place? It is for them but they give up because they confuse themselves with too many teachers and trying to know all.

In the end, there are more confused Buddhists as opposed to Buddhists who actually have mastered one tradition, and went all the way with it and gained attainments that are tangible. This is destroying the Dharma directly. The Buddha himself advocated Guru devotion during his time, as there were students under the care of one senior monk were to stick to that senior monk and serve him and learn from him and not from the others, from what I have understood from the Nikayas. It is very important to hold on to one tradition and go all the way rather than to waste time "exploring" as if we have all the time in the world...we dont...and mentalities like these only make things worse.

Vajraprotector

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Re: An interesting case to study for us
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2012, 08:27:20 AM »
In the end, there are more confused Buddhists as opposed to Buddhists who actually have mastered one tradition, and went all the way with it and gained attainments that are tangible. This is destroying the Dharma directly. The Buddha himself advocated Guru devotion during his time, as there were students under the care of one senior monk were to stick to that senior monk and serve him and learn from him and not from the others, from what I have understood from the Nikayas. It is very important to hold on to one tradition and go all the way rather than to waste time "exploring" as if we have all the time in the world...we dont...and mentalities like these only make things worse.

His Holiness is Chenrezig, Avalokiteshvara and a great master of Tibetan Buddhism. But, he cannot be everywhere and take care of so many beings and guide them on their spiritual path. Learning from the books without support is not the same as learning from a teacher with the support of a spiritual community.

So why is it that His Holiness wants to stop people from practising Dorje Shugden? There are already so little left of the great masters of the old, why MUST we follow what His Holiness say? His Holiness works very hard for his age, travelling the world and giving public discourse and meeting world leaders, but he doesn't have time to organise centres, classes, and guide his students in close proximity like NKT do, so what if NKT practice Dorje Shugden? Let them practice, they are bringing holy Buddhadharma to many via their centres.

If the CTA wants to implement the ban, fine, if you can manage all the students of the Shugden Lamas then perhaps the Shugden Lamas do not need to take on these students.

One example, there are 1100 Kadampa Centers and branches in 40 countries around the world, can the CTA or His Holiness' people handle them, then perhaps the new people who have not taken the sogte do not need to practice Dorje Shugden. That's just one example, so can you take over the work of all Shugden lamas working hard in the USA, in Europe, in China, in Tibet, in Southeast Asia and so on? If not, why stop them from doing their work to benefit others?


Ensapa

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Re: An interesting case to study for us
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 05:01:55 AM »

His Holiness is Chenrezig, Avalokiteshvara and a great master of Tibetan Buddhism. But, he cannot be everywhere and take care of so many beings and guide them on their spiritual path. Learning from the books without support is not the same as learning from a teacher with the support of a spiritual community.

So why is it that His Holiness wants to stop people from practising Dorje Shugden? There are already so little left of the great masters of the old, why MUST we follow what His Holiness say? His Holiness works very hard for his age, travelling the world and giving public discourse and meeting world leaders, but he doesn't have time to organise centres, classes, and guide his students in close proximity like NKT do, so what if NKT practice Dorje Shugden? Let them practice, they are bringing holy Buddhadharma to many via their centres.

If the CTA wants to implement the ban, fine, if you can manage all the students of the Shugden Lamas then perhaps the Shugden Lamas do not need to take on these students.

One example, there are 1100 Kadampa Centers and branches in 40 countries around the world, can the CTA or His Holiness' people handle them, then perhaps the new people who have not taken the sogte do not need to practice Dorje Shugden. That's just one example, so can you take over the work of all Shugden lamas working hard in the USA, in Europe, in China, in Tibet, in Southeast Asia and so on? If not, why stop them from doing their work to benefit others?

There is no way to replace a real live teacher for guidance. As lay practitioners we are prone to deceiving ourselves and resting in our comfort zones and we are more than willing to twist the texts and scriptures to bend into our own comfort zone rather than interpreting it as it is. A teacher is very important as he or she helps prevent this from happening and to correct us from going down further in our own ignorance and delusions. Nothing can ever replace a teacher, not even a sangha community. I know of a center that does not believe in having a resident teacher, needless to say the center was a mess. And also very important here is that the teacher must be a valid one as per the 50 verses of Guru devotion and not just some random person who happens to be able to talk the Dharma nice. Books, DVDs and teachings can give us knowledge, but cannot save or prevent us from misinterpreting the contents, nor help point out our negative habituations and help cut them off.

HHDL and CTA should really be responsible for the broken samayas and the flippant attitudes of the "Buddhists" of this day and age and it cannot be that such attitudes will produce good Buddhists, neither will it produce attainments of any sort. Or perhaps, HHDL is creating a filter of sorts to filter off the flippant and the non stable Buddhists and only focus on the development of those who have the actual qualities, so that they in turn may be able to benefit many more? The ban itself seems to uncover more questions than answers, and many "scholars" such as Drefyus wrote materials with more loopholes and opinions rather than answers, so is this the intended effect, to make people question and find out more. The outcome is that those who hold on to Dorje Shugden progress even faster in their path as their sincerity and mental strength are tested and increased many fold.