Author Topic: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?  (Read 23741 times)

brian

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2012, 06:39:08 PM »
Thank you for posting this question up. it does make my mind think a little here and there. my equation to this controversy is that:

HHDL = CHENRIZIG = WISDOM & COMPASSION = HENCE THIS GAME PLAN, because:

CHINA = A LOT OF PEOPLE = IF HATES HHDL AND KNOWS WHAT CAN BE DONE TO SHORTEN HHDL'S LIFE = THEY WILL SURELY PRACTICE.

Hense, my next equation is:

HHDL = CHENRIZIG = WISDOM 7 COMPASSION = MAKE HIMSELF QUESTIONABLE BY DECLARING PRACTISING DS WILL SHORTEN HIS LIFE = CHINESE GOVT WILL ENCOURAGE HIS PEOPLE TO WORSHIP DS = DORJE SHUGDEN'S PRACTICE SPREADS AS THE CONTROVERSIAL MAKES DS MORE POPULAR

Lineageholder

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2012, 09:44:37 PM »
But some who are narrow minded, not
understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly
being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama,
disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other
and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being
who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and
hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and
creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future.
Why is
this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special
emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power
to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or
spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external
and internal maras without exception.   

Oh, I thought you were saying that Trijang Rinpoche ACTUALLY said that there would be a ban on Dorje Shugden and that it would be for a higher purpose.  In reality, you are simply reading too much into this quote to justify the "bigger picture".

You have to remember that Trijang Rinpoche's text was written long before the ban and Trijang Rinpoche himself passed away before the ban was implemented, so maybe what he was saying about criticising the Dalai Lama was of a certain time that's no longer relevant now.  It has a certain historical context.

I really do wonder what his real views about the Dalai Lama would be these days, but in any case, you cannot use this quote to justify a 'bigger picture'.

It saddens me that this site, which is contributed to by a great number of very obviously sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners seems to be pushing an agenda of believing in a 'bigger picture' with no evidence to support it.  There are many threads that are actively pushing this view (such as this one), and snide criticism of those who criticise the Dalai Lama. ("Interesting feedback on western Dorje Shugden practitioners") 

You'll never create a harmonious Dorje Shugden community by criticising those who disagree with your views.

Ensapa

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2012, 10:00:22 AM »

Oh, I thought you were saying that Trijang Rinpoche ACTUALLY said that there would be a ban on Dorje Shugden and that it would be for a higher purpose.  In reality, you are simply reading too much into this quote to justify the "bigger picture".

You have to remember that Trijang Rinpoche's text was written long before the ban and Trijang Rinpoche himself passed away before the ban was implemented, so maybe what he was saying about criticising the Dalai Lama was of a certain time that's no longer relevant now.  It has a certain historical context.

I really do wonder what his real views about the Dalai Lama would be these days, but in any case, you cannot use this quote to justify a 'bigger picture'.

It saddens me that this site, which is contributed to by a great number of very obviously sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners seems to be pushing an agenda of believing in a 'bigger picture' with no evidence to support it.  There are many threads that are actively pushing this view (such as this one), and snide criticism of those who criticise the Dalai Lama. ("Interesting feedback on western Dorje Shugden practitioners") 

You'll never create a harmonious Dorje Shugden community by criticising those who disagree with your views.

If you havent noticed yet, the way it was written implies very clearly that there will be a ban in the future, unless of course that is what we would not want to see. Why else would he want to write something like that down if everything was nice and wonderful and that there would be no problems with the practitioners in the future? Obviously it is written in context with the ban.

I know I am not supposed to lose my patience, but some things must be said.

Unfortunately due to narrow mindedness and how some people find it so difficult to investigate the root text which is on this website, and demand that information and quotes be served on a silver platter, I'll be quoting the entire portion on the text and please read it within context and in between the lines, please.

Quote
There is something I must mention at this point.   As stated above, the Great Fifth
Dalai Lama and Omniscient Panchen Rinpoche were like Lords of the Teachings. In
actuality they are, respectively, Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha
emanating in the human form of special holy beings. Yet this Lord of Dharma
Protectors exhibited an ability to harm or destroy them, and such events as the
Great Fifth, having been able to summon this Dharmapala to be burned with
intense samadhi but not accomplish it, also shows that the enlightening activities
of these great masters and those of this Dharmapala are each as mutually
universal and pervasive as the other. But some who are narrow minded, not
understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly
being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama,
disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other
and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being
who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and
hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and
creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is
this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special
emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power
to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or
spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external
and internal maras without exception.   
Again, some who like to speak illogically say that there is resentment
between this lord of Dharma Guardians and the Great Dharmaraja Nechung and
that it is therefore unsuitable for the Tibetan Government and its workers to rely
upon this Protector.   

This is a projection of ordinary faults upon those of high realization, special
Dharmapalas, out of habituation to their own common bad behavior of
competitiveness, prejudice, and harboring of grudges. It simply reveals complete
ignorance of the nature of these Dharmpalas, the extent of their realizations, and
knowledge of what they protect and do not protect. If such Dharmapalas were
motivated by competitiveness, attachment, hatred, and jealousy, how could it be
suitable for those who seek liberation to rely upon and make offerings to them?  
This is because not relying upon or associating with vicious worldly gods and
ghosts is one of the precepts of having gone for refuge.   

 You know what saddens me the most? It's Dorje Shugden practitioners like you who cannot give up their hate for HHDL and, try their very best to convince the practitioners who still love HHDL to hate him and when they dont you say these sort of words. I dont see Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche hating HHDL, nor has the current Pabongkha said anything despite threats to their lives. Same goes for the monks of Shar Ganden and Serpom, and not to mention the lay practitioners who are being ostracized in Dharamsala. So which position are you in to say "I hate HHDL because he banned Dorje Shugden?"

 And for someone whose life is not threatened to have blind hatred towards HHDL when that issue only results in alienation from other politically correct Dharma centers to keep say such things about this site who has done nothing but provide information and support to other practitioners, it is rather rude and ungrateful. Is that the results of your protector practice?

I now know how the tibetan felt about western practitioners being insensitive to Tibetan culture.

Lineageholder

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2012, 02:09:23 PM »
Hi Ensapa,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. 

Firstly, I didn't demand quotes from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's text, I was merely asking if you had any direct quotations from this great Master that proves that the Dalai Lama banned Dorje Shugden for a higher purpose.  What you have quoted does not prove that.  You can believe what you like, but it seems to me that you are reading something into the text that isn't there.  Sorry, but that's how it appears.  What the text says to me is that the 14th Dalai Lama projecting ordinary qualities onto Dorje Shugden is deluded.

Let's break down what it actually says:

 - the actual 'dispute' between the 5th Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden was not what it appears. It's wrong to side with Dorje Shugden and criticise the 5th Dalai Lama and the 1st Panchen Lama, and also wrong to side with them and to criticise Dorje Shugden.  Such behaviour is ordinary and deluded because their dispute was to show the greatness of both.

 - there is no jealousy or dispute between Nechung and Dorje Shugden because if there were, these beings would be unsuitable objects of reliance in order to attain enlightenment.

There's nothing there that implies a 'bigger picture' and it simply refers to historical events.  Furthermore, there's no evidence that even if the 5th Dalai Lama was an emanation of Avalokiteshvara that the 14th Dalai Lama is in the same mental continuum.  There are stories that his recognition as the Dalai Lama was mistaken due to the deceit of the Reting Rinpoche.

You're also 'putting words into my mouth' - I do not hate the Dalai Lama.  I actually am sad that he has created such terrible karma such as causing others to break their spiritual commitments to their Gurus and also having caused a schism in the Sangha.  I don't hate him but I will not make excuses for him either - he is solely responsible for the suffering that is being experienced by Dorje Shugden practitioners in India and in Tibetan communities worldwide. To justify his actions is to justify causing suffering to others for no reason.

Barzin

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2012, 02:47:35 PM »
Besides knowing the fact that it is for a bigger picture but i like this thread because it makes me think if were to rewind the time, wouldn't HHDL do it differently without causing so much anger, sangha community divided, harm and ill spoken words of an enlightened being etc etc..  Interesting.

If we believe that His Holiness is the reincarnation of Avalokiteshvara himself, sure he operates from compassion and I believe he has weighed all the pros and cons of the action.  But is there any other better way?  I am sure His Holiness will have his reasoning.  China is the fastest growing country in the world now, the population is overwhelming, and the people have become very materialistic and dharma is much needed over there.  The only thing i can think of is since the Chinese dislike His Holiness so much, by manifesting flaws, the Chinese will pick up the practice and spread into China.  Once the chinese starts practicing, it will spread to the world.  If we look at the very qualities of Dorje Shugden is to grant your wishes very swiftly, so by hooking you onto your worldly wishes then you'll gain merits to be able to receive the dharma.  Don't forget, afterall he is Manjushri himself.

As for the harm and abandoning of the guru that happened along the way, I have no comment on those, to me those incidents are just accumulated personal negative karma.  As for harming His Holiness's health, he is Avalokiteshvara.  Enough said.

Positive Change

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2012, 08:11:57 AM »
To add to this discussion... is there really a negative if one thinks/reflects on a deeper level... Yes of course the sufferings of Shugdenpas which are oppressed seem so... but that understanding is merely operating on a samsaric level I feel...

If we truly looked at the bigger picture, it certainly is for the good of everyone.... and the suffering incurred is to a large extend of our own doing too. We created the causes for it... this is the very fundamental beliefs of Buddhism. And as such, is it really suffering and perhaps it should be seen a purification of sorts which in turn translates into a positive.

Am not attained nor am I learned but I view the ban as a positive as opposed to the negative. I see it as a means to spread Dorje Shugden far and wide because without it, the practice would merely be something lost like (I am sorry to say) the Tibetan traditions of yesterday.

Big Uncle

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2012, 02:16:04 PM »
Interesting discussion here about the ban and I think everyone had developed their own views regarding this matter. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche never spoke about the ban directly but the way he wrote his advice indicated that he foresee future conflict between Dorje Shugden practitioners and the followers of the Dalai Lama.

Whether this is a prophecy of the ban is left to scholars to dispute. I think that it doesn't matter anymore as this thread is looking at the aftermath of the ban. Were there more positive results after all that? I think that is really hard to determine at the moment as people are just too caught up with the injustices inflicted. But one thing is for sure, it didn't diminish the practice and there are many evidences that this practice is flourishing and is very much alive today.   

Ensapa

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2012, 02:41:33 PM »
At this point, it is really time for us to be strong and to hold on to Trijang Rinpoche's words on not to disparage against HHDL or the protector. All the great lamas are doing that, and so are the Tibetans. Trijang Rinpoche has made it extremely clear that this is the attitude that we should be adopting during these troubled times. I'd rather accept Trijang Rinpoche's words and advice than to give in to my uneasiness with HHDL over the ban.

We can look at Dharma centers who carry out the sectarian policy of not allowing Dorje Shugden practitioners, or even worse, look down on the Dharma protector, not the head of the organization but the people in it, and we can see that they are barely growing or that they have any outstanding disciples that are qualified enough to share Dharma WITH RESULTS THAT MOVE THE HEARTS OF OTHERS.

Why is it that NKT churns out a lot of teachers while some centers churn out almost next to none, or that they exist but are far and rare in between? It is exactly what Trijang Rinpoche had predicted in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors. Also, does anyone wonder why he said those things? What does it imply? Taking texts without context like a robot wont help anyone...it is experience and context that allows the Dharma to penetrate our minds.

If we hold on to our own ideas so strongly and refuse to read something that is already quite clear, and even when we read it we insist that it fit to our views and discard or conveniently ignore portions of the text that we refuse to see or believe because it challenges our personal beliefs, then what is the use of study Dharma? I'm not pointing fingers, but its something i feel that we should all reflect on at all times.

Ratna Shugden

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2012, 06:41:10 PM »
The practice of the legitimate & Enlightened Dharma Protector of the Gelug tradition should never have been banned in the first place, it's a great tragedy for the tradition, which holds the very essence of Buddha Dharma, the result of the hard work of Je Tsongkhapa & his disciples.

Sentient beings who denouce Dorje Shugden create a very harmful imprint in their mental continuum, by denying an Enlightened Dharma Protector after reading/listening to false allegations without doing any research to find the truth & encourage others to do the same. Schism in the Sangha. Submitting to peer pressure instead of standing up for what is true. They desecrate holy places, & harm the faithful. Verbal arguements among people spreading online.

Any benefits of the ban is nothing but successful attempts to control the damage done. What if all attempts to control the damage till today failed? The Gelug tradition will be ruined! Please bear in mind that after the ban has been lifted, if it ever will, it may not be possible to fix every single damage done.

If this tragedy hadn't taken place, disciples can focus their time, effort & resources in productive study & application of the Dharma, setting a good example for the Buddhist community, doing community service to the less fortunate around the world, taking the essence of this precious but transient human existence.

Let's not lie to ourselves that this is a controvesary regarding Protector Manjushri Dorje Shugden is a good thing.

Let's insead put our hands together to create the cause & conditions for this ban to end peacefully, motivated by Bodhichitta.

Ratna Shugden

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2012, 07:24:43 AM »
Instead of trying to convince yourself that this ban isn't a mistake or a harm done to the Gelug community for a greater good in future, which in both cases doubt will still exist in your mind, why not look at other activities of the Dalai Lama to have a more balanced view of him?

You can study the Dalai Lama's contribution to the world & to Tibet itself: Dharma talks, initiations (although he sometimes speak against Dorje Shugden in them), charity work, lending his support to a good cause, writing books (I read some of his books in my younger days before I became aware of the ban, his books are good but I am not reading his books now.) , producing audio books & videos on the Dharma ( I assume he does this also). After looking at all his activities, there are bound to be some of them which you sincerely feel from the very bottom of your heart, without any doubt, as being beneficial to sentient beings, rejoice in them & share them with people around you through conversations & writings.

The same principle can be applied to sentient beings around us: Don't just look at a person's mistakes, look at his contributions also.

Ratna Shugden

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2012, 07:27:10 AM »
Instead of trying to convince yourself that this ban isn't a mistake or a harm done to the Gelug community for a greater good in future, which in both cases doubt will still exist in your mind, why not look at other activities of the Dalai Lama to have a more balanced view of him?

You can study the Dalai Lama's contribution to the world & to Tibet itself: Dharma talks, initiations (although he sometimes speak against Dorje Shugden in them), charity work, lending his support to a good cause, writing books (I read some of his books in my younger days before I became aware of the ban, his books are good but I am not reading his books now.) , producing audio books & videos on the Dharma ( I assume he does this also). After looking at all his activities, there are bound to be some of them which you sincerely feel from the very bottom of your heart, without any doubt, as being beneficial to sentient beings, rejoice in them & share them with people around you through conversations & writings (post these findings here if you want).

The same principle can be applied to sentient beings around us: Don't just look at a person's mistakes, look at his contributions also.

Ensapa

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2012, 11:09:51 AM »
I love what you have stated, Ratna Shugden, but sometimes people are hard to convince as they will only see the bad points of HHDL no matter what happens or how much good HHDL has done, but it is a good effort trying anyway. Sometimes, people can be stubborn and that they can have their own beliefs on something, but it is okay because people are diverse in nature.

However, since they do know the stance of this forum where a majority of us choose to still support HHDL, why would they want to press their beliefs against us anyway? With that said, perhaps they were too irked by how we tend to say that HHDL is not making a mistake with the ban and that HHDL is still the real thing and the ban has a bigger purpose. We have the evidence to support those, tho.

At this point, i just hope that we can all be united under one goal and under one canopy: that is we are all Dorje Shugden practitioners who practice with the utmost sincerity towards our protector who has given us so much in more ways than one and we just wish to work together to lift the ban despite our different opinions on HHDL and that we do not focus on that part...

On the damage done to Gelug, perhaps it was intended by the person or the group of people who has been forcing HHDL to enact the ban because i do not believe that HHDL is doing this willingly and it seems as if he does support Dorje Shugden but he has to conceal it. His website and some of his statements have too many indications and contradictions about Dorje Shugden and the ban...that is if we read between the lines...

Ratna Shugden

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2012, 01:04:54 AM »
Books by the Dalai Lama which I had enjoyed reading in my younger days before I became aware of the ban:
The Art of Happiness: A Handbook for Living
The Wisdom of Forgiveness
Transforming the Mind

Whenever I see his books in the bookstores & in the library, especially the titles above, theywould now remind me of the ban :-[
May the ban on the practice of Protector Manjushri Dorje Shugden end soon.

AnneQ

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2012, 09:49:32 AM »
Here are my humble thoughts:-

Pros
1. The ban brought about curiosity and awareness of Dorje Shudgen and its practice has spread twofold internationally since then.

2. China has since encouraged the practice of Dorje Shudgen and temples set up to allow people to worship Dorje Shudgen openly.

3. By endorsing Dorje Shugden, relations between Tibet and China has somewhat improved allowing Tibetan Buddhism to spread widely in China.

4. In my opinion the ban had somehow ironically 'saved' Tibet from further hardships previously imposed by China by splitting the Tibetans into either pro or anti Dorje Shudgen practitioners, thereby weakening their fight for independence. As a result, the ban diverted Tibetans from the cause and China became more opened to accepting the practice of Dorje Shudgen.

5. Most importantly, the ban created and encouraged websites like this one promoting the spread and awareness of Dorje Shudgen as a powerful protector.

Cons
1. The ban created disunity among the Tibetans and CTA started to discriminate against pro Dorje Shudgen practitioners, resulting in the accumulation of more nagative karma and unhappiness within the Tibetan community.
2. Lives were sacrificed and people suffered.

I am sure I am only skimming the surface but taking into consideration all the other posts' positive points here, the positives do outweigh the negatives. I have no doubts about this.

Ensapa

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Re: The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2012, 03:11:12 PM »
Here are my humble thoughts:-

Pros
1. The ban brought about curiosity and awareness of Dorje Shudgen and its practice has spread twofold internationally since then.

2. China has since encouraged the practice of Dorje Shudgen and temples set up to allow people to worship Dorje Shudgen openly.

3. By endorsing Dorje Shugden, relations between Tibet and China has somewhat improved allowing Tibetan Buddhism to spread widely in China.

4. In my opinion the ban had somehow ironically 'saved' Tibet from further hardships previously imposed by China by splitting the Tibetans into either pro or anti Dorje Shudgen practitioners, thereby weakening their fight for independence. As a result, the ban diverted Tibetans from the cause and China became more opened to accepting the practice of Dorje Shudgen.

5. Most importantly, the ban created and encouraged websites like this one promoting the spread and awareness of Dorje Shudgen as a powerful protector.

Cons
1. The ban created disunity among the Tibetans and CTA started to discriminate against pro Dorje Shudgen practitioners, resulting in the accumulation of more nagative karma and unhappiness within the Tibetan community.
2. Lives were sacrificed and people suffered.

I am sure I am only skimming the surface but taking into consideration all the other posts' positive points here, the positives do outweigh the negatives. I have no doubts about this.

There are several other cons that you have missed out: Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world, some of them who have received it from very high teachers such as Lama Yeshe and Trijang Rinpoche himself were ousted from their own Dharma communities and were forced to practice alone. High Lamas such as Pabongkha Rinpoche were suppressed and their Dharma activities have been limited by this ban.

The ban also gave an excuse for the other lineages to attack Gelugpa, citing that Gelug is not a "safe" lineage since it has been "tainted" by Dorje Shugden. Of course, they have been thinking in this way all along but the ban allowed them to criticize Gelug in a more open manner where they will sound valid and justified. I have heard of this all the time happening on internet forums and such.

It also caused a lot of old monks and lay practitioners, most of them who have been the backbone of the monasteries to be ousted and kicked out to the streets with almost nothing and the shops and villages refuse to serve them or support them in any way. No one else will support these group of practitioners in Dharamsala where everyone is at camp Dalai Lama and if you're not, you're an outcast.

Last but not least, it has distracted many people and many practitioners from real Dharma, from both sides of the camp, pro and anti Dorje Shugden and they get involved in meaningless tussle and arguments about who is right and who is wrong with regards to the ban and has caused the gelugs a huge split that would be very difficult to reconcile in the years to come even when the ban has been lifted...