Author Topic: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden  (Read 21199 times)

Ensapa

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2012, 03:41:55 PM »
My Lama would have never asked a student to refrain from any practice for which they were empowered. Any Lama who does so is bowing to political pressure and, in so doing, is demonstrating their lack of worthiness as a Lama. 8)

My apologizes for sounding rude towards an ordained person (if you really are one that is), I dont remember reading that as one of the prerequisites of one of the qualities that a Lama should have  - not bowing to political pressure. Firstly why is it bad and why do you have a huge hangup over that? I would still respect a Lama who bows to political pressure so that many more can benefit from the Dharma.

A Lama who demonstrates the lack of worthiness of being one is a Lama who gives teachings purely for the sake of gathering disciples, and placating them solely for the sake of getting funds, and to top it off, is conceited about his intentions, conceals his shortcomings and talk about attainments he does not have. I dont see bowing to political pressure as one of the factors of being an unworthy teacher in the 50 verses of Guru devotion.

If a Lama bows down to political pressure just so that more disciples can benefit and his outreach will be more, then why not? Lama Zopa had to. Gelek Rinpoche had to as well, and as a result their center still grows and more people get to benefit from the Dharma....so whats wrong with that? it does not disqualify them from being a Lama at all.

So whats the hangup really about, the Lama or yourself for wanting to always be on the dream team? But then again, each to its own, im just questioning why are you making the whole thing to be such a huge issue and talking about something that is not even in the scriptures as if it is.

Namdrol

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2012, 06:53:10 PM »
Good poll by nagaseeker.

My answer is: Immediately stop practice Dorje Shugden without asking any question!

All attainments come from relying on the spiritual guide, so if MY guru said don't practise, then he has his good reasons and I should follow, note here the keyword is MY.

If my guru is Dalai Lama, he said don't practise, so I won't.

If my guru is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, he said practise, then I will.

If I have a few gurus, some said practise and some said don't, then I will listen to that ONE ROOT GURU's advice and follow.

It is not a matter of Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not, it is a matter of listening to the guru's advice and not be selective about it.

Tenzin Malgyur

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2012, 07:06:27 AM »
If my lama ask me not to practice, I will follow his instruction without hesitation. This is because I have full trust in my Lama and whatever instructions he have for me will not harm me. This is because I have been taught to see my Lama as a living Buddha who have given up all worldly pursuits to help and guide all sentient beings out of suffering. How kind is he. And he is doing all this without asking for any payment. So whatever I am doing, I will always want to have the blessings of my Lama.

Klein

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2012, 09:30:06 AM »
If my Lama who gave me the practice of Dorje Shugden tells me to stop, then I'll stop without questioning.

If the Lama who asks me to stop, is not the Lama who gave me this practice, then I will not stop. This is because I will break my samaya with my Lama who gave me the practice. When this happens, I will not have the blessings from the lineage Lamas and will not gain any attainments.

RedLantern

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2012, 09:37:09 AM »
I will immediately stop practicing Dorje Shugden without asking any questions,as I view my lama not just as an ordinary teacher,but as the living embodiment of the Buddha himself.I have full trust in my lama who have so much compassion,knowledge and wisdom,the enlightened mind.The one who will lead us to the path and eventually,who gives us that eye to see the truth.Once we accept a perfect soul as our lama,stop wondering,both mentally and physically.Attachment to the lama will withdraw the mind from all the worldly thought and objects.

kurava

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2012, 10:29:54 AM »
If I choose to follow the Vajrayana tradition and have taken a lama as my spiritual guide, without any ifs or buts I will follow my Guru's instruction.

Why ?

Guru devotion is the foundation of all good qualities and merits necessary for the spiritual path. If I have pledged to take instructions from my Guru then I should not choose and pick instructions according to my own preferences.

My Guru would be able to see what is suitable and beneficial to me in the short and long terms. What I think 'unreasonable' is due to my own short sightedness and shallow thinking.Everything the Guru asks me to do will have a purpose with the motivation to help me on the path.

It is said in the Lamrim that true merits come from following our Guru's instruction NOT from doing virtues as according to our own ordinary views because the Guru has already attained the mind of renunciation - the state where true merits arise from actions of body, speech and mind.

Yes, I definitely will stop the practice if my Guru gives explicit instruction to stop. However, I will not bad mouth or attempt to influence others who wish to engage in this practice.

vajratruth

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2012, 02:30:43 PM »
I hold my Dorje Shugden practice as a rare treasure of immeasurable value but nothing over-rides my Guru who is the only foundation of practice, my dharma and every truth. This is only the case if my Guru is the same Guru who gave me the practice to begin with. Otherwise there is no way I would give up my practice for any reason.

The highest authority of my spiritual practice, my religion and even my life is none other than my Guru from whom I received the knowledge of the dharma, the practice of the dharma as well the love for the dharma. As much as I have complete faith in Dorje Shugden, I would not deny my Guru for a split second.

My Guru is the emanation of all Buddhas amd if he tells me to do something, he will have a good reason for it even though it makes no sense to me.

Galen

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2012, 03:47:18 PM »
If my Lama asks me to stop practice Dorje Shugden, then I will stop immediately. No questions asked because I trust my Lama who knows better than me what is suitable for my practice.

He must have his reasons with a basis and not because Dorje Shugden is a spirit. I myself believe, together with all the evidence there is since the 5th Dalai Lama's era, that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Buddha.

And I trust my Lama is because he is the nearest person to me who has the knowledge and can bring me to a better rebirth this lifetime. I could not see or hear Buddha but I could see and listen to my Lama.

Aurore

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2012, 03:59:32 PM »
If my lama has given me the practice in the first place and then ask me not to practice Dorje Shugden, it will probably be because I have not been a good student and I do not deserve Dorje Shugden's practice. I believe my lama will have valid reasons. However, it would not be because Dorje Shugden is harmful or a spirit. However, this doesn't mean that it will stay this way forever. I will fiercely follow up on what I need to improve on and transform myself so that I may regain back this practice.

If I wasn't practicing Dorje Shugden in the first place and then my Lama ask me not to practice Dorje Shugden. Then I shall just continue not to practice Dorje Shugden. I only practice what my Lama gives me in the first place. That is where the real blessings is.

honeydakini

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2012, 04:38:30 PM »
I think there are many factors to this - it wouldn't be as simple as just giving it up.

Firstly, it would depend if the Lama asking me to stop the practice was the same one who gave it to me. If it is, then I would follow the instruction to stop, believing that he knows what is best for me at each stage of my practice. If it isn't however, it would be very difficult to give up - how can the instructions of one teacher be more important or take precedence over another? I think this is perhaps one of the outstanding reasons for not having so many teachers all at once when we are not yet experienced or matured enough to handle different teacher-student relationships.

Secondly, I think we must realise that such instructions are not uncommon. A teacher may give his student an instruction (not necessarily yidam-related or protector-related) for a period of time, and then change the instruction to another one later; or give the student a different instruction. This is not because the instruction is wrong or that the practice is bad, but that he is simple changing practices to suit us as we traverse the path.

It has become a big issue within the Dorje Shugden practice because of the politics that have necessarily become a part of this "instruction" from the Dalai Lama. If you were a student of the Dalai Lama, received the practice from the DL and then were told by the DL to stop the practice,  there should theoretically not be any conflict. You received an instruction from the Dalai Lama (your guru) and then you received another instruction from the same Guru. So you follow accordingly.

What has complicated this more than anything is that people have not only taken the Dalai Lama's instructions to heart (rightly so, if it really is the case I have described above) but taken it upon themselves to police whether everyone else is following his "instruction" or not, whether these people are his students or not. This is when it is no longer about following a teacher's instruction. Surely, any real teacher would not want his students to go around mistreating other practitioners, denying them basic welfare, hurting them or burning their houses! So we have to think about whether we are really following the instruction purely, not following it all the way, or, in the case of these people, misinterpreting the instructions for our own gain and agendas.

yontenjamyang

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2012, 09:54:28 AM »
The Guru is the root of all attainments. Only by relying on the Guru can we gain merits and attainments. So if the Guru ask us to stop, we just stop.

In the 50 Stanzas of Guru Devotion it is stated that one can ask the Guru for the reason. Whether the Guru reply is another matter. No matter what we should follow what the Guru says for he is the same as all Buddhas.

Verse 24 of the 50 Stanzas

(A disciple) having great sense should obey the words of his Guru joyfully and with enthusiasm. If you lack the knowledge or ability (to do what he says), explain in (polite) words why you cannot (comply).

Verse 35 of the 50 Stanzas

When asking for your Guru’s advice, (first announce why you have come). With palms pressed together at your heart, listen to what he tells you without (letting your mind) wander about. Then (when he has spoken) you should reply, "I shall do exactly as you have said."

These verses are the most appropriate applied to this kind of situation.



triesa

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2012, 10:26:41 AM »
I don't think that there can be no blessing in continuing a practice (in secret) when it has been removed from me by my root Guru.

There can be no blessing, for if we think there can be, it is contradictory to Guru devotion, it is contradictory to karma.
My Guru is more potent than Dorje Shugden in this that the karma I have with my Guru is what can make me connect with Dorje Shugden or what can block Dorje Shugden to reach me.

Not that my Guru or Dorje Shugden want to help me or don't want to help me (of course they'll do anything to help), it is that I create a karma that blocks the access.

If I lock my door and close all the shutters, how can the sun come in?

It is then up to me to change that karma, and of this I am certain: if my Guru ever removes the practice of Dorje Shugden from me it is because He knows that I am capable to create the causes to get the practice again. And what I do to create these causes may be more powerful for me now, more beneficial.

HopeRainbow, what you have said here by following your Guru's instruction, even to the extent of stopping Dorje Shugden's practice, showed what pure guru devotion and strong faith you have, as you can see that whatever the reasons would be for your Guru to ask you to stop the practice, it is ultimately for your benefits. That kind of thinking is commendable.

I would do the same as well, by following the advice from my Guru and request later to resume the practice again.

valeriecheung

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2012, 02:07:14 PM »
I will stop practice dorje shugden if my guru said so. The very basic logic this practice is given by my guru at the beginning, on the other hand if ask me to stop definitely the reason is for my own good. I totally has faith in my guru for his every action at the end is to benefit others and his student. Another important point is if practices without guru blessing i have doubt will have any effect. Its meaningless if without effect no matter how many billions mantra or intensive retreat been done.

thor

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2012, 07:06:48 PM »
If my Lama who gave me the practice of Dorje Shugden tells me to stop, then I'll stop without questioning.

If the Lama who asks me to stop, is not the Lama who gave me this practice, then I will not stop. This is because I will break my samaya with my Lama who gave me the practice. When this happens, I will not have the blessings from the lineage Lamas and will not gain any attainments.

Klein - then wouldnt you be breaking samaya with the Lama who asked you to stop?

I answered "I will ask why before making further decision". However i wish there was another more accurate option to answer. What I would do is to stop but to respectfully ask my Lama why. If he chooses not to answer, I would still stop as he has asked me to. If he answers why, i would listen and attempt to understand. In either case, I would stop as I only have one lama and as such, my practice belongs to him and I will do whatever he advises me to.

In the case of multiple having multiple gurus, it would be very difficult to answer if different gurus gave different advice. In that case, I suppose what I would do is to ask my Root Guru what I should do. As all permission to receive teachings from other teachers comes from my Root Guru, the root of the blessings will stem from him also so that would be the most logical thing to do.

that makes sense right?

DS Star

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Re: POLL : If your Lama ask you not to practice Dorje Shugden
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2012, 09:04:20 PM »
Good poll by nagaseeker.

My answer is: Immediately stop practice Dorje Shugden without asking any question!

All attainments come from relying on the spiritual guide, so if MY guru said don't practise, then he has his good reasons and I should follow, note here the keyword is MY.

If my guru is Dalai Lama, he said don't practise, so I won't.

If my guru is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, he said practise, then I will.

If I have a few gurus, some said practise and some said don't, then I will listen to that ONE ROOT GURU's advice and follow.

It is not a matter of Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not, it is a matter of listening to the guru's advice and not be selective about it.


Exactly...

When our Guru ask us to stop a particular practice, we just stop, no question ask. Period.

When we have only one Guru, like me, there is no confusion. If we have already taken refuge and took this Guru as our Root Guru, we just follow his instruction without contest or question. This is clearly stated in the 50 Stanzas of Guru Devotion.

Dorje Shugden is undisputed powerful Buddha emanated in protector form to help us remove obstacles that obstructing our spiritual growth. I see no reason any highly attained Lama will stop practicing it or ask his student to stop as well.

I'm sure my Lama/Guru will not ask me to stop practicing Dorje Shugden, why would he? Unless of course it is for my benefits to grow spiritually, I can't imagine why my Guru would do that.