Author Topic: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso  (Read 28539 times)

Rihanna

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2012, 05:24:16 PM »
When i was in my teens, i overheard some people in our dharma community commenting that a Geshela has been ex-communicated by his monastery. That sparked an interest in me and seeked to find out more about him. I was saddened to hear such a news; which monastery would ask a geshela to leave??? I followed geshela's teaching wherever i could stumble upon and through the years bought more and more of his books. The contents are so structured and precise. Afew years ago, i saved enough to travel to UK to visit geshela's centre and was amazed at the organisation he has established in a foreign land...and it dawned on me that geshela never left sera; he brought sera to a foreign land . A classic example that if you have the merits, wherever you go, you bring the merits with you and you can continue with your spiritual journey.

DSFriend

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 05:41:50 PM »
There's so much controversies and criticisms towards Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Honestly, tell me how many illustrious masters have been free of controversies and criticisms? 

As far as I'm concern, this old Geshe has accomplished so much in his lifetime that it'll take MANY lifetimes for me to even accomplish a fraction of what he has done. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not my Guru but I respect him very much. His books has been tremendous help as they are structured and presented well.

His great devotion to the path and compassion for all is clearly shown through this courage to break through cultural and language barriers! May Geshe-la live long and his students continue to uphold and spread his teachings far and wide.

ratanasutra

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 08:56:32 PM »
i like Geshe kelsang Gyatso books and respect him very much. Some of my friends are students of Geshe-la, sometime they will fly to join the teaching or retreat, and they never miss the teaching when Geshe-la come to give a teaching in their country.   
I believe that the high lamas are play in different roles and parts and Geshe-la is in the part of DS practitional who has lot of students follow..
May Geshe-la have a long life and good health, turn the wheel of Dharma until the ban lifted.

DS Star

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2012, 02:36:55 PM »
i like Geshe kelsang Gyatso books and respect him very much. Some of my friends are students of Geshe-la, sometime they will fly to join the teaching or retreat, and they never miss the teaching when Geshe-la come to give a teaching in their country.   
I believe that the high lamas are play in different roles and parts and Geshe-la is in the part of DS practitional who has lot of students follow..
May Geshe-la have a long life and good health, turn the wheel of Dharma until the ban lifted.

Same here Ratanasutra, I like Geshe-la's books very much especially Joyful Path of Good Fortune. I find that Geshe-la has a very structured way of explaining Dharma to people in the West and those in countries where there is no mass Dharma knowledge. This is the unique skill of Geshe-la.

And yes, Geshe-la played a very large part in promoting DS practice openly and gather followers of Tibetan lineage outside of Tibet and Tibetan community. A very great deed by a master of Dharma indeed.

I pay my highest respect to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and ALL the high lamas of DS practice.

Tenzin K

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2012, 10:01:19 AM »
Ven Gehse Kelsang Gyatso receive the teaching from his root Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Geshe-la believes that the practice of Lord Shugden should continue and to be practice by anyone who wish to do so.

It is an independent Western Buddhist organization, the Dalai Lama has no authority in terms of how the NKT is organized and what practice are taught.

Geshe-la said at an NKT Festival in 1995 that the Gelug tradition is in a state of “serious degeneration.” In explaining this, Geshe Kelsang said that if the Dalai Lama succeeds in destroying the practice of Dorje Shugden, the entire Gelug tradition itself will be destroyed.

If the practice of Lord Shugden is harmful then it follows that Je Pabongkha was not an authentic BUddhist master and if he was not then there is no doubt that his heart decibels, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche (the Senior and Junior Tutor of HH the14th Dalai Lama) were also not authentic. These 3 high Lamas are the most important Gelupa Lamas of the recent times. If these three are not pure teachers then there is no doubt that the entire practice of Gelug Tradition is invalid. This is the main issue that need to clarification.

Geshe-La continue the lineage that pass on from his Guru and protected it well.
Gesha-La hard work inspired many and we pray for his many many long life to continue his great work not until the ban lifted but more people take up this great holy practice for Lord Shugden.

Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2012, 10:48:16 AM »

Geshe-la said at an NKT Festival in 1995 that the Gelug tradition is in a state of “serious degeneration.” In explaining this, Geshe Kelsang said that if the Dalai Lama succeeds in destroying the practice of Dorje Shugden, the entire Gelug tradition itself will be destroyed.


1. The Gelug Teachings started 600 years ago. Dhogyal began his appearance 350 years ago. It doesn't tally. The timing is off. When Tsongkapa was around, there was not Dhogyal.

2. How can a entire sect be based on the existence of one protector or rather Shugden. Does that not make Gelug sect very flimsy. After all Nalanda, Tsurphu, Tashi lunpo, Ganden, Sera, Depung are all not defined what dharma protector they practice. And the removal of a dharma protector cannot be the end of a lineage. So within the Gelug it's whether you practice Shugden or not that makes or breaks a whole lineage? C'mon, that does not sound right at all. The basis of Gelug is Shugden? The basis of what makes you a real Gelug is Shugden? What about all the high lamas and Gaden Tripas who were existent BEFORE Shugden? Are they not true Gelugs because Shugden didn't exist and they didn't practice what did not exist??? How can such a vast and profound lineage such as Gelug founded by Manjunatha Tsongkapa be dependent on ONE SINGLE DEITY? Aren't we overemphasizing this so called protector Shugden?

3. Study the 17 volumes of Tsongkapa's teachings, realizing the Middle View, Graduated Path of Tantra, Tsongkapa's exposition on Words of Eloquence, Yamanteka, Chakrasmvara and Guhyasamaja's practices should define you as a truly Gelugpa. Not the worship or existence of Dhogyal (Shugden). Dhogyal didn't even exist during the time of Tsongkapa.

4. Tsongkapa assigned the practice of the dharma not focussed on a dharma protector. Although Kalarupa was assigned by Tsongkapa as the main protector of the lineage, he did not write extensively about Kalarupa showing us it is not important to focus on protectors especially if they are not enlightened.

5. This statement by Geshe Kelsang is too sweeping and too extreme. Too illogical. The degeneration within Gelug is because of worshipping a worldly spirit called Dhogyal. Exactly what HHDL is kindly telling us.


hope rainbow

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2012, 05:14:27 PM »
1. The Gelug Teachings started 600 years ago. Dhogyal began his appearance 350 years ago. It doesn't tally. The timing is off. When Tsongkapa was around, there was not Dhogyal.

Sorry, TG but I don't see your point with this comment.

2. How can a entire sect be based on the existence of one protector or rather Shugden. Does that not make Gelug sect very flimsy. After all Nalanda, Tsurphu, Tashi lunpo, Ganden, Sera, Depung are all not defined what dharma protector they practice. And the removal of a dharma protector cannot be the end of a lineage. So within the Gelug it's whether you practice Shugden or not that makes or breaks a whole lineage? C'mon, that does not sound right at all. The basis of Gelug is Shugden? The basis of what makes you a real Gelug is Shugden? What about all the high lamas and Gaden Tripas who were existent BEFORE Shugden? Are they not true Gelugs because Shugden didn't exist and they didn't practice what did not exist??? How can such a vast and profound lineage such as Gelug founded by Manjunatha Tsongkapa be dependent on ONE SINGLE DEITY? Aren't we overemphasizing this so called protector Shugden?

The degenerescence of the Gelug sect does not depend upon an Enlightened Protector, you are right, it depends upon the practitionners, they are the one who will create causes for the lineage to continue and the Gelug school to grow or to degenerate.
They will create the merits or the demerits...
For the practitioners, it is therefore essential to follow the Guru's instructions, have faith in the Guru, take refuge in the 3 jewels, practice the Lojong, the 50 stanzas, the lamrim, abide by their vows and practice the other teachings received from the Guru. For some Gelug it means: to continue the practice and the reliance upon Dorje Shugden. For others it may mean something else, but what is important is to practice and have faith in the Guru(s), this is what will make or break the Gelug school (or any school for that matter, even worldly sets of teachings). Without a clean samaya, faith and pure and sincere practice, no Protector can help because the karma/merit is not in place and the mindset of the practitioner is not aligned with BODHICITTA!

3. Study the 17 volumes of Tsongkapa's teachings, realizing the Middle View, Graduated Path of Tantra, Tsongkapa's exposition on Words of Eloquence, Yamanteka, Chakrasmvara and Guhyasamaja's practices should define you as a truly Gelugpa. Not the worship or existence of Dhogyal (Shugden). Dhogyal didn't even exist during the time of Tsongkapa.

I agree with what you say, but I'll add this: what does Dorje Shugden protects and propitiate? This:
"the 17 volumes of Tsongkapa's teachings, realizing the Middle View, Graduated Path of Tantra, Tsongkapa's exposition on Words of Eloquence, Yamanteka, Chakrasmvara and Guhyasamaja's practices"

4. Tsongkapa assigned the practice of the dharma not focussed on a dharma protector. Although Kalarupa was assigned by Tsongkapa as the main protector of the lineage, he did not write extensively about Kalarupa showing us it is not important to focus on protectors especially if they are not enlightened.

Times have changed, and unfortunately human beings of this day and time do not have the same karma as those of the time of Lama Tsongkhapa (if they did they would have been "there"). Different approaches are needed suitable to today's practitionner's karma and minds. Simple.
Again, a Protector cannot be a Protector if there is nothing to protect. What is to be protected:  the practice of the Dharma, so the focus REMAINS as in the times of lama Tsongkhapa, the focus HAS NOT SHIFTED!
Dorje Shugden being a Buddha, He is a valid object of refuge in its own right too, as is ANY Buddha. The difference between other Buddhas and Dorje Shugden is our affinity, our contemporaries have AFFINITY with the Buddha Dorje Shugden, or else they would not be out contemporaries. Simple again...

5. This statement by Geshe Kelsang is too sweeping and too extreme. Too illogical. The degeneration within Gelug is because of worshipping a worldly spirit called Dhogyal. Exactly what HHDL is kindly telling us.

ditto comment (2)

Thanks and cheers TG :)

Zach

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2012, 10:45:28 PM »

Geshe-la said at an NKT Festival in 1995 that the Gelug tradition is in a state of “serious degeneration.” In explaining this, Geshe Kelsang said that if the Dalai Lama succeeds in destroying the practice of Dorje Shugden, the entire Gelug tradition itself will be destroyed.


1. The Gelug Teachings started 600 years ago. Dhogyal began his appearance 350 years ago. It doesn't tally. The timing is off. When Tsongkapa was around, there was not Dhogyal.

2. How can a entire sect be based on the existence of one protector or rather Shugden. Does that not make Gelug sect very flimsy. After all Nalanda, Tsurphu, Tashi lunpo, Ganden, Sera, Depung are all not defined what dharma protector they practice. And the removal of a dharma protector cannot be the end of a lineage. So within the Gelug it's whether you practice Shugden or not that makes or breaks a whole lineage? C'mon, that does not sound right at all. The basis of Gelug is Shugden? The basis of what makes you a real Gelug is Shugden? What about all the high lamas and Gaden Tripas who were existent BEFORE Shugden? Are they not true Gelugs because Shugden didn't exist and they didn't practice what did not exist??? How can such a vast and profound lineage such as Gelug founded by Manjunatha Tsongkapa be dependent on ONE SINGLE DEITY? Aren't we overemphasizing this so called protector Shugden?

3. Study the 17 volumes of Tsongkapa's teachings, realizing the Middle View, Graduated Path of Tantra, Tsongkapa's exposition on Words of Eloquence, Yamanteka, Chakrasmvara and Guhyasamaja's practices should define you as a truly Gelugpa. Not the worship or existence of Dhogyal (Shugden). Dhogyal didn't even exist during the time of Tsongkapa.

4. Tsongkapa assigned the practice of the dharma not focussed on a dharma protector. Although Kalarupa was assigned by Tsongkapa as the main protector of the lineage, he did not write extensively about Kalarupa showing us it is not important to focus on protectors especially if they are not enlightened.

5. This statement by Geshe Kelsang is too sweeping and too extreme. Too illogical. The degeneration within Gelug is because of worshipping a worldly spirit called Dhogyal. Exactly what HHDL is kindly telling us.

I like how you completely ignored the actual issue.

"If the practice of Lord Shugden is harmful then it follows that Je Pabongkha was not an authentic BUddhist master and if he was not then there is no doubt that his heart decibels, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche (the Senior and Junior Tutor of HH the14th Dalai Lama) were also not authentic. These 3 high Lamas are the most important Gelupa Lamas of the recent times. If these three are not pure teachers then there is no doubt that the entire practice of Gelug Tradition is invalid. This is the main issue that need to clarification."

You cannot receive blessings of Je Tsongkhapas lineage if the lineage masters haven't even kept the refuge vows (not to worship spirits) as the Refuge vows are the foundation of all other vows and vows are the foundation of all accomplishment. You make requests via the lineage masters each day as Tantric practitioners to receive blessings which help us accomplish the stages of the path now if Ling Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonkha Rinpoche and all the other Gelugpa's who practiced Shugden are on the Tantric suplication prayers then to subscribe to the Dalai lama's mountain of absurd consequences is tantamount to contradicting all Dharma reasoning.


VS

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2012, 11:03:36 PM »
Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is one of the greatest lama that has persevered in serving and spreading DS practice in the world when the ban was so intense.

Without His effort together with the other DS warriors, most of us would not have been able to be blessed by DS, and to them I'm truly grateful.

This shows that DS is definitely not an evil spirit. If DS is, DS practice would not have grown to where He is today and majority of us wouldn't have the great honour in knowing and be blessed Him. Giving us a chance and helping hand in this wide sea of samsara!