Author Topic: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?  (Read 21841 times)

Ensapa

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2013, 10:05:34 AM »
The original intention of this thread is to  find out on whether or not a powerful Dharma protector can purify Samaya. It's not as a "okay lets use Dorje Shugden as a one stop solution" thing. During this day and age, even practicing one sentence of the Dharma is already hard enough, let alone find a proper Guru that will actually train the students until they are proper vessels for tantra, and when such a Guru is found some people would find it hard to gain the 'favor' of the Guru. Consider this scenario: a person who is lucky enough at this time to find a Guru who is willing to train this person to be a suitable vessel for Tantra as opposed to just giving out initiations and refuge to plant blessings, but no matter what the person does, the Guru is not impressed or happy and the person is 'stuck' in a situation whereby the sangha offers little or no support at all. I have seen many people in this situation and after a while they burn out (probably because they lack merits) and abandon spirituality altogether. Some of them just need a direction or real support from someone who understands and I was wondering if Dorje Shugden is powerful enough to show signs to these people to go to the right path.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2013, 10:25:33 AM »
Well that really sums up your main intention of this thread Ensapa, thank you. I understand more what you were getting at now.

Would it be more accurate to ask if Dorje Shugden is powerful enough to make the practitioner aware of the signs?

He is manifesting signs constantly, but the persons karma may heavily obscure them. This is likely what Trijang Dorjechang means by saying it is as if the Protector is blindfolded. Being omniscient, Dorje Shugden sees all. The extent Buddhas can help depends on our karma at the time, because there is a definite relationship between our minds and what appears to them. It is hard to say precisely to what extent a Buddha can control our karma i.e. what is appearing in our mind. Through blessings and the manipulation of events, I believe Dorje Shugden can alter what karma ripens for us, and in that way lead us in the direction of repairing samaya. Others have already written this here so I'll shut up now.

Thanks to everyone for making me dig deeper in my relationship with the Guru.


Ensapa

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2013, 10:37:40 AM »
Well that really sums up your main intention of this thread Ensapa, thank you. I understand more what you were getting at now.

Would it be more accurate to ask if Dorje Shugden is powerful enough to make the practitioner aware of the signs?

He is manifesting signs constantly, but the persons karma may heavily obscure them. This is likely what Trijang Dorjechang means by saying it is as if the Protector is blindfolded. Being omniscient, Dorje Shugden sees all. The extent Buddhas can help depends on our karma at the time, because there is a definite relationship between our minds and what appears to them. It is hard to say precisely to what extent a Buddha can control our karma i.e. what is appearing in our mind. Through blessings and the manipulation of events, I believe Dorje Shugden can alter what karma ripens for us, and in that way lead us in the direction of repairing samaya. Others have already written this here so I'll shut up now.

Thanks to everyone for making me dig deeper in my relationship with the Guru.

Thanks for your reply. Your posts really does help us understand a lot on many things, especially on this one about Guru devotion, samaya and Dorje Shugden and now I understand the blindfold part. I think in the earlier part of this thread, some people have mistaken that i was asking this for myself and also that i wanted Dorje Shugden as a quick fix for things. As far as I understand, samaya is the bond of trust between disciple and the Guru. If the Guru lost his trust in a disciple, it would be very hard for the disciple to prove themselves back unless he or she knows exactly what to do. As you have replied, it would mean that the person who have broken the samaya must earnestly rely on Dorje Shugden and be very sincere about it, and be sensitive to the signs that Dorje Shugden has sent to them to repair their samaya. Thanks for helping me understand this :)

Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2013, 06:37:10 PM »
If you want to repair samaya, why not follow the prescribed traditionally practices universally accepted by all schools of Tibetan Buddhism and masters without doubts:

1. Samaya Vajra
2. Confessions of Downfalls of 35 Buddhas
3. Vajrasattva
4. Heruka Vajrasattva
5. Prostrations

Combined with the four remedial powers. Why go to Shugden? Even if he was a dharma protector, why would you invoke a dharma protector to repair samaya? Doesn't make sense at all. 

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2013, 07:13:33 PM »
Tenzin Gyatso, of course there are the practices you mention. But it appears you are not aware that all 4 schools also rely upon Dharma Protectors to help repair samaya, especially where the samaya is between the Protector and practitioner. The Masters explain this, and it is a very powerful practice.

The reason one might go to Dorje Shugden is the same one would choose to do any other practice, for example, due to feeling a special connection with that Buddha.

Do you rely on Kalarupa or Palden Lhamo? The samaya situation is the same in their sadhanas too.

Ensapa

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2013, 03:26:16 AM »
If you want to repair samaya, why not follow the prescribed traditionally practices universally accepted by all schools of Tibetan Buddhism and masters without doubts:

1. Samaya Vajra
2. Confessions of Downfalls of 35 Buddhas
3. Vajrasattva
4. Heruka Vajrasattva
5. Prostrations

Combined with the four remedial powers. Why go to Shugden? Even if he was a dharma protector, why would you invoke a dharma protector to repair samaya? Doesn't make sense at all. 


In relations to the practices that you have mentioned (which of course works and is true and valid) the Dharma protector is also needed to clear obstacles that surmount us from doing purification practice. There are people who are too burdended with obstacles to the point where they are unable to do even the most basic purification practice at all but they have a strong connecting with the Dharmapala. Besides, Dorje Shugden's puja has a line that says that he will help purify broken samaya. In fact, all Dharma protectors have that function:

Quote
Tantric, base, fulfillment, commitment,
Favorite visual, and sang offerings,
Filling space, thus, may heart commitments
Be fulfilled, broken bonds be restored!

All our mistakes of thought or deed that
Trangress the great Dharmapala’s mind,
Confessed from the heart, purify us;
Like a mother, care for your children!

This is why I believe that Dorje Shugden can help repair samaya.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2013, 03:42:46 AM »
Dear friend Tenzin Gyatso,

Seriously, I'm not picking on you or trying to be mean. I really do feel that many people here would honestly like to know your answers to the questions I asked you. So I would like to repeat them and ask you to please answer. Please don't just come along in this forum making derogatory off-the-cuff remarks without supporting your claims with valid logical reasons or engaging us in friendly dialogue and debate. It is important for us as an individual and a practitioner of Dharma to investigate why it is we believe what we believe and what valid reasons and experiences lead us to those conclusions. If we are not examining our mind, our beliefs, and actively trying to accomplish reversal, what are we doing. Here are the questions again:

"So I'm asking you directly Tenzin Gyatso, in the light of so much evidence and sincere objective contemplation of the situation at hand, how is it possible for a "Buddhist" to look at this situation and be so intensely supportive of actions that completely contradict the Dharma and cause intense harm to living beings?

I ask, because when I give a non-biased explanation of the circumstances to non-Buddhist friends of mine, its a no-brainer for them. So do please explain to all of us here reading your posts, as a Buddhist who strongly supports all the intense non-virtue arisen from this ban, how have you come to have complete disregard for empirical evidence of human and religious rights abuse? How have you come to the conclusion that this shit is ok for Buddhists to do? Seriously, all the deity/demon stuff and who's who aside(totally irrelevant really), the reality of abuse laid bare, how can anyone in their right mind think this shit is ok?" .....

I will add one more - What is your intention when you post writings in this forum?

We sincerely look forward to your honest reply.

Most respectfully yours,
psylotripitaka

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2013, 04:09:45 AM »
People keep using the term 'samaya' to specifically refer to the Guru-disciple bond. I would just like to point out that it is not simply referring to the bond established through us deciding to take a teacher as our Guru and the Guru accepting us as their student. That is of course the essence, but samaya refers also to the vows, commitments, and other spiritual promises that we make to the Guru, Yidam, or Protector.

beggar

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2013, 08:12:39 AM »
People keep using the term 'samaya' to specifically refer to the Guru-disciple bond. I would just like to point out that it is not simply referring to the bond established through us deciding to take a teacher as our Guru and the Guru accepting us as their student. That is of course the essence, but samaya refers also to the vows, commitments, and other spiritual promises that we make to the Guru, Yidam, or Protector.

Thanks for clarifying this and yes, what you have defined is entirely true. It is also the spiritual promises made to the spiritual community that we might have the fortune to be in; a samaya with our sangha (whether we are ordained in a monastery or we're practicing within a kind of lay sangha, like a dharma center).

So I think in the context of this question, the protector helps us to repair samaya at all levels by first and foremost clearing the immediate obstacles to a successful practice on all the levels of body, speech and mind. what a "successful practice" will mean of course differs from person to person, but when if done correctly, should mend samaya not just to the Guru but to everything else around him also - the community, the practices, vows and commitments we have received from him etc.

It is sometimes misunderstood that the protectors only help to clear immediate physical obstacles and this is perhaps why people think that Dorje Shugden is only a worldly protector to go to for wealth, health, relationships etc. But in reality, the real obstacles that he needs to remove are those that obstruct our spiritual path. (So in this case, if wealth will cause us to go further from our spiritual goals, we may not get the wealth we wish for. The protectors won't give us what will BECOME obstacles.) So, in removing the obstacles to our spiritual path, we are able to purify the negativities of broken samaya and simultaneously accrue the merit needed to support deeper practice and the mending of this samaya. It all connects in a very intricate way.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2013, 05:35:41 PM »
Hi Beggar,

I've found this last post of yours incredibly helpful. Well said. Thank you.

thaimonk

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2013, 12:49:19 AM »
I fully agree with psylotripitaka. Beggar's explanation is very clear, simple and easy to understand yet profound. Thank you.


Hi Beggar,

I've found this last post of yours incredibly helpful. Well said. Thank you.

Ensapa

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2013, 02:15:32 AM »

Thanks for clarifying this and yes, what you have defined is entirely true. It is also the spiritual promises made to the spiritual community that we might have the fortune to be in; a samaya with our sangha (whether we are ordained in a monastery or we're practicing within a kind of lay sangha, like a dharma center).

So I think in the context of this question, the protector helps us to repair samaya at all levels by first and foremost clearing the immediate obstacles to a successful practice on all the levels of body, speech and mind. what a "successful practice" will mean of course differs from person to person, but when if done correctly, should mend samaya not just to the Guru but to everything else around him also - the community, the practices, vows and commitments we have received from him etc.

It is sometimes misunderstood that the protectors only help to clear immediate physical obstacles and this is perhaps why people think that Dorje Shugden is only a worldly protector to go to for wealth, health, relationships etc. But in reality, the real obstacles that he needs to remove are those that obstruct our spiritual path. (So in this case, if wealth will cause us to go further from our spiritual goals, we may not get the wealth we wish for. The protectors won't give us what will BECOME obstacles.) So, in removing the obstacles to our spiritual path, we are able to purify the negativities of broken samaya and simultaneously accrue the merit needed to support deeper practice and the mending of this samaya. It all connects in a very intricate way.

Some incidents that happened to a friend made me think about several new points that can be added to this...
In the cause of clearing obstacles and perhaps, can the protector create more obstacles for us that keeps stacking up more and more but we can pull through if we have a little bit more willpower to strengthen our resolve so that in future we can overcome them? Does the protector work in that way as well? Also, if someone has a great relationship with the Guru and his Dharma brothers and sisters, but plays dirty politics that only some people can perceive and cause some people outside of the circle to lose faith to the Guru, why would the protector allow this to happen?

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2015, 03:59:07 PM »
Samaya with our Guru is very often broken by our negativities such as insincerity, dishonesty and many more traits that we habituate sometimes knowingly and sometimes unknowingly.

This article is extremely beneficial for us to learn how to repair our Samaya with our Guru.  Being compassionate and loving, Dorje Shugden will definitely help us to repair but only if we are sincere and with integrity not repeat it over and over again.

Otherwise it will be a totally hopeless exercise to ask for help to repair broken samaya and then break it again and again.

If we have the merits to repair our samaya, then we must be sincere in our desire not to break it again.