Author Topic: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?  (Read 21845 times)

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 12:13:19 AM »
In one of his oral commentaries on Dorje Shugden practice, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche explains that there are many different beautiful things in the world and that we can offer these to the Protector with the intention of restoring broken samaya, and that such an offering is called an 'offering of fulfilling substances'.

In commenting on the section where we recite "Now is the time to show clearly your versatile strength..", he says that because we are keeping the heart commitments we have confidence in saying this, because we are doing things correctly; that if we never do anything correctly how can we say "Now is the time.."; that this is unsuitable!

He says we will make mistakes due to our delusions, but that we can restore our broken samaya through making these offerings of fulfilling substances; that it is important to maintain our commitments realizing that this is the best method for receiving Dorje Shugdan's protection, blessing, and special care.

But again, if we are always making the same mistakes thinking 'O I can just purify so it is ok', we are missing the point about purification practice and clearly have not established the power of determination.

Ensapa, you wrote:
"Does he require people to have strong samaya to provide assistance, or will he help those who have broken their promises to their Lama and provide the favorable conditions to repair them? Is there any indication that Dorje Shugden will help these people if they are sincere enough?"

- The degree he can help depends on the power of purity from the disciples side.
- There are many practitioners around the world constantly making mistakes, yet the Protector continuously helps those who make sincere effort to rectify the situation.
- So yes, in my personal experience of making constant mistakes, there are many clear indications throughout the years that he is always with me like the shadow of my body. Many people have this experience, so best not to worry about whether or not he can help and focus that energy on perfecting samaya.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 02:12:30 AM »
Also, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche also explains that if we have broken our commitments to the Protector, we can first make offerings, and as part of even the concise sadhana, we can recite many times the section that says:

"May I fulfill the heart commitment and restore my broken commitments".

Such beautiful advice for restoring every day rather than waiting until the Protector days when we do Kangso, or waiting until we ourself perform a Kangso which though it may be quite often, it is not as often as the daily condensed practice, not to mention, we don't have to only recite this in the context of a sadhana recitation but can do so whenever we make mistakes.

dsiluvu

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 04:46:06 AM »
In one of his oral commentaries on Dorje Shugden practice, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche explains that there are many different beautiful things in the world and that we can offer these to the Protector with the intention of restoring broken samaya, and that such an offering is called an 'offering of fulfilling substances'.

In commenting on the section where we recite "Now is the time to show clearly your versatile strength..", he says that because we are keeping the heart commitments we have confidence in saying this, because we are doing things correctly; that if we never do anything correctly how can we say "Now is the time.."; that this is unsuitable!

He says we will make mistakes due to our delusions, but that we can restore our broken samaya through making these offerings of fulfilling substances; that it is important to maintain our commitments realizing that this is the best method for receiving Dorje Shugdan's protection, blessing, and special care.

But again, if we are always making the same mistakes thinking 'O I can just purify so it is ok', we are missing the point about purification practice and clearly have not established the power of determination.

Ensapa, you wrote:
"Does he require people to have strong samaya to provide assistance, or will he help those who have broken their promises to their Lama and provide the favorable conditions to repair them? Is there any indication that Dorje Shugden will help these people if they are sincere enough?"

- The degree he can help depends on the power of purity from the disciples side.
- There are many practitioners around the world constantly making mistakes, yet the Protector continuously helps those who make sincere effort to rectify the situation.

- So yes, in my personal experience of making constant mistakes, there are many clear indications throughout the years that he is always with me like the shadow of my body. Many people have this experience, so best not to worry about whether or not he can help and focus that energy on perfecting samaya.

I've really learnt quite a bit from the dialogue that is going on here.... thanks a lot for patience and effort in asking and explaining. It has added to my understanding about kangso and the significance of it. Yes Psylotipitaka, it is no point repairing any samaya if one is not conscientious of not repeating the same mistakes again and put in the necessary efforts to prevent it from happening and you said as bolded above... it is basically very simple true logic. Indeed the protector and Guru is one... if you have disturb your Guru's mind, you would have disturb the protector's mind. If your Guru's mind is at peace, happy with you, so will the protector. Never the less both Guru and Protector is always I believe ready to forgive but how many times can the Guru accept "broken promises"... even if the Guru does accept, due to his compassionate nature, how many time can you/I as the practitioner accept ourselves for breaking samaya/promises???

I guess the real question is are we, you, me, serious about it... not breaking samaya and what if we are serious but due to much heavy negative karma, one keeps slipping unintentionally, hence isn't it better then for the practitioner to retreat himself/herself and engage in purification practices before returning back again? Would that be more appropriate? 
 

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 05:36:48 AM »
My experience is that in general they will continue to repeat their instructions over and over again until we get it, but with regards to specific samaya, especially if we have a close relationship with the human emanation of our Guru, it is critical to have a discussion with our Lama about it. It might be that they recommend distancing each others proximity and involvement in order for the disciple to not only purify but to come to clear conclusions and decisions about the trajectory of their behavior. Sometimes the distance may naturally arise and the disciple only returns many years later to a crossroads where they have repaired things inside enough to maintain a decision that was previously broken on a repeated basis. When they reach that plateau and make the decision, it is very important to follow thru. With knowledge and commitments comes responsibility, and the greater the knowledge or more powerful the commitment, the greater the responsibility, and likewise the greater the fall if it is broken once again. That is why it is important to be careful and skillful with our promises. Making determinations to try our best is a very minimum; to keep the intention, for if we abandon the intention to keep the samaya, then it is truly broken!

We definitely need to learn to forgive ourselves, but to embrace our shortcomings while recognizing that we are not our delusions, that we do not have faults but that we have delusions in our continuum and that these have faults. Unfortunately, if we keep making promises or determinations and do not establish the supports to maintain these, not only will we keep falling but we will establish a very strong tendency to repeat the downfall. Therefore, as a basic intention, we need to keep the intention to keep all our samaya. On that basis if we skillfully make determinations that are within our capacity, then strive with great effort in the lamrim, we will be less likely to break it.

For example, I have certain habits that are very detrimental to fulfilling my bodhichitta; that take me in the opposite direction. In the past I would commit for a week at a time but I even broke this. So, I make special promises every single day during a certain sadhana that "from now until my next session of this sadhana, I will not...." Not only have I found this more manageable, but it has enabled me to keep the promise and this has given me encouragement. It has also had a profound impact on my mind, my intentions, my capacity to keep certain important samaya. So being skillful is important.

Though keeping the intention is the foundation, it must not become an excuse for not keeping certain commitments. We'd say shit like "Oh well it isn't my capacity so...". That is true to an extent, but there are certainly things we can keep that we just get lazy with!!

If we definitely believed in karma and future lives; that the realizations were real, and that we are a good person worthy of those attainments, the meaning of saying we will keep the vows and commitments even at the cost of our life takes on a new meaning for us within our own consciousness.

Meditating excessively on the faults of samsara is very important, but it is equally encouraging to meditate excessively on the results of our practice. In particular, if we are moved by the details of commentaries on the 6 stages of completion stage (isolated body and so forth) we will be blown away by what's in store for us if we really apply ourselves. Sometimes just by reading the precise scientific technology those subjects, such as how to attain the deathless vajra body, our mind becomes elevated to a point where we look at some of our actions and daily concerns and go "what the hell am I putting so much effort into all this stuff for?" It doesn't mean we don't engage our world, but our views and intentions begin to change and our priorities change so that we at least include certain trainings every day.

Sorry to go on and on about that, my intent is to show that great effort in actual meditation as frequently as possible is the real key to keeping samaya. We need to taste the realizations and insights in meditation non-conceptually for them to have the deepest impact, but like I said, even conceptual determinations over and over again will begin the process of real transformation. With familiarity we can accomplish anything...its what we pay the most attention to that is our problem!

dsiluvu

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 10:38:06 PM »
Thanks psylotripitaka for ur sharing of your own experiences.... Agree with the below...

Quote
In the past I would commit for a week at a time but I even broke this. So, I make special promises every single day during a certain sadhana that "from now until my next session of this sadhana, I will not...." Not only have I found this more manageable, but it has enabled me to keep the promise and this has given me encouragement. It has also had a profound impact on my mind, my intentions, my capacity to keep certain important samaya. So being skillful is important.

Though keeping the intention is the foundation, it must not become an excuse for not keeping certain commitments. We'd say shit like "Oh well it isn't my capacity so...". That is true to an extent, but there are certainly things we can keep that we just get lazy with!!

But would you not say that the basis of our positive or negative mindset and actions based on the merits we have that would create the right causes and conditions for us to think and act in Dharma or in proper conduct? Understand what you are saying, but if a person does not have sufficient merit/Dharma would it not be difficult for the person to even comprehend what they have done i.e. if it is positive or negative and having wrong views about their good/bad situation is based on their merits.

I mean there are billions of people out there who engages in non-virtuous actions daily yet they have clue or comprehension that their actions creates more suffering for them in the future. And then there are those who are in Dharma who also creates negative actions daily not realising it also. In fact this could be far more detrimental then those not in Dharma, because those in Dharma may or suppose to know the difference and this could actually lead them to create demerits faster then an ordinary person out there who does not know Dharma.

From many teachings I have heard... it is basically based on the practitioners collection of merits and purification, for this is the fuel that actually supports and helps them to think or rather contemplate/meditate correctly. The collection of merits would stem from the beginning the motivation one sets daily, then the action and then the dedication at the end of it all. So if a person in Dharma creates demerits instead of merits which pushes them away or further from the Dharma, an obstacle that is self created of course, with this realisation would it not be best for the person to get in to purification practices... (3 of the 5 prelims)? That would be a start, no?

Big Uncle

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2012, 09:30:21 AM »
I think people must understand what broken samaya is all about. Samaya is a Sanskrit word to denote the sacred bond in which we have with our Lama when we take refuge, receive any vows, oral transmissions, initiations and so forth. This sacred bond when we keep our commitments, study and practice the Dharma and we follow the instructions given by our Lama. When we break this sacred bond, we commit grave negative karma, which is far worse that ordinary misdeeds that we normally commit.

Dorje Shugden is a Dharma Protector and relying him can help us with our spiritual practice but for him to help us effectively requires a clean and unbroken samaya. Otherwise, Dorje Shugden will have to face even more obstacles than normal to assist us. Sometimes, the negative karma is so heavy that it overwhelms Dorje Shugden and renders him ineffective in coming to our aid.

Therefore, when we have broken our samaya, it is best to confess our misdeeds and seek to remedy the action with actions that are opposite from the misdeed. Also, we need to rely on a special yidam that has arisen especially to purify the heavy misdeeds of broken samaya. That specially yidam is called Damtsig Dorje or Samayavajra.

http://www.artoflegendindia.com/images/detailed/pbcb177_lord_buddha_hand.jpg

This deity belongs to the mandala of Guhyasamaja tantra, the “secret Assembly” – the gathering of 32 deities. This particular practice purifies all transgressions in the relationship with one’s spiritual guide (broken samaya).


beggar

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2013, 08:32:17 AM »
Ensapa, in short, my understanding is that how much the Protectors can help depends entirely on the efforts of the practitioner to clean up their act, remain this way mostly, and only increase their ability to maintain samaya.

This is powerful - yes, it is entirely up to the efforts of the practitioner. If the Dharma protectors and Buddhas alone could repair our samaya, then wouldn't they have done so already? It cannot be that they are fully compassionate beings but would allow us to continue suffering the effects of broken samaya - if they could do something to remove all our negative karma completely, they would have. The fact that so many of us are still suffering, still making the same stupid mistakes and still creating negative karma shows clearly that we are creating our own destinies.

What the Dharma protectors can do in relations to samaya, and through our sincere propitiation to them, is to help keep our negative karmas at bay for a certain time, and to bring about more positive conditions for us. Then, during this "grace period" we are able to practice to purify the negative karma of broken samaya and accumulate merit to continue and sustain on the path. This does not mean that the Dharma Protectors remove or destroy our negative karma. The karma is still there, but they can help us to prevent it from ripening so soon, so that we have time to purify it and activate positive karmic imprints instead. Eventually, we still have to practice and accumulate merit so as to remove the negative karma ourselves.

When this happens - as we purify and accumulate virtue - then our broken samaya is repaired. The dharma protector provides the conditions for us to engage in the practices of these two powerful antidotes  but ultimately, we are the ones who have to repair the samaya ourselves.

Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2013, 09:56:02 AM »
Of course Shugden cannot repair samaya as he was the cause of the biggest samaya break on the face of Buddhism in the 21st century!!! If he can repair samaya then Mara can too! :) ;D

Shugden is like the poster boy of broken samaya! :-[

Ensapa

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2013, 10:46:59 AM »
Of course Shugden cannot repair samaya as he was the cause of the biggest samaya break on the face of Buddhism in the 21st century!!! If he can repair samaya then Mara can too! :) ;D

Shugden is like the poster boy of broken samaya! :-[

Hmm I wonder what proof do you have to back up that claim of yours. I would like to see it.

In what way does Dorje Shugden break samaya? please kindly explain :)

If you cant, it would be an accusation and it would mean that well...thats a very unbuddhistic thing to do...to accuse others of something that they are not.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2013, 04:42:37 AM »
Tenzin Gyatso, it is important to get an objective perspective on the controversy, looking at it from the outside without an emotionally charged interest in either party. Such perspective sees that actions speak for themselves. I stepped back and had a good look, and saw how easy it is for people to get so emotionally fired up they miss he point completely.

Though there are many facets to the controversy, the fact of the matter is, the main and most important thing to acknowledge is it boils down to very well-documented religious and human rights abuses. It is so strange to me how a person can be so obsessed with a popular personality that they refuse to see how what is actually going on is totally inappropriate, destructive, and disrespectful. When we look at the situation objectively, here is what you typically see:

One group of people(Group A) - through coercion, death threats, economic threats, shrine and home destruction, ostracism and so forth - forcing another group of people(Group B) to stop their religious practices and give up their human rights.

Group B peacefully communicates the damage being done and requests the forced ban to be lifted; they peacefully and repeatedly request open dialogue and clarification; the peacefully demonstrate to encourage Group A to stop their abusive and destructive campaign; they provide excessive valid logical reasons for their religious views and so forth.

Group A disregards all these things, and quite simply engages in actions that clearly contradict the BuddhaDharma; contradict basic human and religious rights; contradict common sense.

If some popular teacher came along and told Christians they had to stop believing in Christ and gave all sorts of ridiculous superstitious reasons why they have to do this and constantly contradicted themselves in the process, then forced the ban through various illegal and harmful actions, only someone who was not in their right mind would think this is ok. I mean Jeezus, this isn't rocket science people.

I can understand why some people (out of fear of the extensive negative repercussions of not doing so) would tow the party line and go along with the ban. However, to those free thinkers who are not necessarily impacted directly by the negative consequences to ones life of not abandoning their religious right, people all over the world with objective common sense are forced to ask the question - wtf is wrong with these people?

So I'm asking you directly Tenzin Gyatso, in the light of so much evidence and sincere objective contemplation of the situation at hand, how is it possible for a "Buddhist" to look at this situation and be so intensely supportive of actions that completely contradict the Dharma and cause intense harm to living beings?

I ask, because when I give a non-biased explanation of the circumstances to non-Buddhist friends of mine, its a no-brainer for them. So do please explain to all of us here reading your posts, as a Buddhist who strongly supports all the intense non-virtue arisen from this ban, how have you come to have complete disregard for empirical evidence of human and religious rights abuse? How have you come to the conclusion that this shit is ok for Buddhists to do? Seriously, all the deity/demon stuff and who's who aside(totally irrelevant really), the reality of abuse laid bare, how can anyone in their right mind think this shit is ok?

The controversy really isn't about Dorje Shugden after all, it's about Freedom vs. a Destruction of Freedom that has destroyed the reputation of Buddhadharma and the faith and lives of many.

Seriously Tenzin Gyatso, why is it so hard for Buddhists to be kind? I know, it sounds fucking crazy right!

It doesn't have to be like this.

With Much Sincere Love,
psylotripitaka

Ensapa

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2013, 05:06:26 AM »
Tenzin Gyatso, it is important to get an objective perspective on the controversy, looking at it from the outside without an emotionally charged interest in either party. Such perspective sees that actions speak for themselves. I stepped back and had a good look, and saw how easy it is for people to get so emotionally fired up they miss he point completely.

Though there are many facets to the controversy, the fact of the matter is, the main and most important thing to acknowledge is it boils down to very well-documented religious and human rights abuses. It is so strange to me how a person can be so obsessed with a popular personality that they refuse to see how what is actually going on is totally inappropriate, destructive, and disrespectful. When we look at the situation objectively, here is what you typically see:

One group of people(Group A) - through coercion, death threats, economic threats, shrine and home destruction, ostracism and so forth - forcing another group of people(Group B) to stop their religious practices and give up their human rights.

Group B peacefully communicates the damage being done and requests the forced ban to be lifted; they peacefully and repeatedly request open dialogue and clarification; the peacefully demonstrate to encourage Group A to stop their abusive and destructive campaign; they provide excessive valid logical reasons for their religious views and so forth.

Group A disregards all these things, and quite simply engages in actions that clearly contradict the BuddhaDharma; contradict basic human and religious rights; contradict common sense.

If some popular teacher came along and told Christians they had to stop believing in Christ and gave all sorts of ridiculous superstitious reasons why they have to do this and constantly contradicted themselves in the process, then forced the ban through various illegal and harmful actions, only someone who was not in their right mind would think this is ok. I mean Jeezus, this isn't rocket science people.

I can understand why some people (out of fear of the extensive negative repercussions of not doing so) would tow the party line and go along with the ban. However, to those free thinkers who are not necessarily impacted directly by the negative consequences to ones life of not abandoning their religious right, people all over the world with objective common sense are forced to ask the question - wtf is wrong with these people?

So I'm asking you directly Tenzin Gyatso, in the light of so much evidence and sincere objective contemplation of the situation at hand, how is it possible for a "Buddhist" to look at this situation and be so intensely supportive of actions that completely contradict the Dharma and cause intense harm to living beings?

I ask, because when I give a non-biased explanation of the circumstances to non-Buddhist friends of mine, its a no-brainer for them. So do please explain to all of us here reading your posts, as a Buddhist who strongly supports all the intense non-virtue arisen from this ban, how have you come to have complete disregard for empirical evidence of human and religious rights abuse? How have you come to the conclusion that this shit is ok for Buddhists to do? Seriously, all the deity/demon stuff and who's who aside(totally irrelevant really), the reality of abuse laid bare, how can anyone in their right mind think this shit is ok?

The controversy really isn't about Dorje Shugden after all, it's about Freedom vs. a Destruction of Freedom that has destroyed the reputation of Buddhadharma and the faith and lives of many.

Seriously Tenzin Gyatso, why is it so hard for Buddhists to be kind? I know, it sounds fucking crazy right!

It doesn't have to be like this.

With Much Sincere Love,
psylotripitaka

Thank you so much psylotripitaka, your words are more or less the exact ones that I would want to point out although I was not able to at the point of writing for the previous post. The ban on Dorje Shugden is not really about Dorje Shugden himself, but about how so called Buddhists have degenerated to these days. It  is about Buddhists who would do something that is clearly wrong even from a basic, humanistic point of view in order to reaffirm their faith. The Tibetans in Dharamsala who are against Dorje Shugden and the westerners who are against Dorje Shugden has one thing in common: both parties pretty much would do things that are the opposite of being Buddhist such as discriminating against another Buddhist, spreading fear and blind faith and turning others away from their spiritual path. My question is why? So I realized that the Dalai Lama is using this ban to separate the wheat from the chaff: the practicing Buddhist who embody Buddhist qualities from those who dont.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2013, 06:21:23 AM »
If Dorje Shugden is not a Dharma Protector, how is it that he has protected the Dharma in many practitioners minds and they have gained Dharma realizations?

If Dorje Shugden can't repair samaya in the mind of a sincere practitioner striving to remove the 8 worldly concerns from their mind, how is it that practitioners have profound inner experience of their samaya being repaired by this holy Wisdom Buddha.

How does one come to the conclusion that facts aren't facts? That's so strange.

Practically speaking, if we have a strong intention to repair samaya and request holy beings to help make that happen, think about it. If I was a holy being and you asked me for help, you bet I'd be there for you. Even if my eyes were blindfolded by your broken samaya, I would still have you in mind and your sincere intention to repair it would take my blindfold off, and I would behold the most precious thing in the universe, your Buddhanature striving to be set free, and jewels from my mongoose would fill your mind with power, unbelievable power to accomplish freedom.

Time to clean house.

Positive Change

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2013, 07:09:38 AM »
Isnt broken samaya between oneself and one's Guru? I do not see how Dorje Shudgen can help repair samaya broken between a student and teacher. I would say perhaps Dorje Shugden can "prevent" it from happening by changing the course of events that may create the circumstances for such a chance to happen for the practitioner... but mending it should and can only come from the student themselves no?

Am I making any sense or am I merely babbling on here.. ;) Can someone help?

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2013, 07:58:38 AM »
No, you can definitely break samaya with a Dharma Protector. For example, the Palden Lhamo has certain samaya you make with her such as to not criticize the wind or perform negative actions towards crows/ravens, and it is explained that during the kangso you purify and restore broken samaya with her.

Likewise, in the Dorje Shugden kangso, the confession section says "All faults and transgressions against the body, speech, and mind of the five lineages and their retinues....are cleansed and purified."

In an earlier post in this thread I mention Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche's advice about restoring samaya with the Protector.

Essentially, there is a 50/50 kind of thing going on. The practitioner makes a sincere effort from their side to purify and restore, and the Guru-Protector manifests blessings for this to be successful. It is the same in Samayavajra, Vajrasattva and so forth.

What's really interesting to me is how can we really say we are putting in the other 50 in the equation when our opportunity, our knowledge, our virtuous intentions, and virtuous actions, and our practice and purification and restoration are all due to the kindness of the Guru. It is as if the Guru is doing everything!

The Protector isn't different from the Guru, but our samaya with the Protector presents a different context or aspect of our relationship with the Guru, and certain particular samaya is established, such as to maintain the heart commitments of the Protector, perhaps to do Protector practice every day, the kangso once a month and so forth.

For me, the conclusion is to rely upon Dorje Shugden to help me maintain samaya, purify and restore degenerate or broken samaya, and so forth with faith and confidence that it works. The results of this relationship are palpable.

diamond girl

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Re: Can Dorje Shugden help repair samaya?
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2013, 04:51:35 AM »
This is indeed interesting. Based on what I understand, the Buddhas and Protectors are compassionate. They do not "Punish", in fact it is karma and merits which we should be concerned about. The Protectors will provide conducive environments for us to gain merits and purify karma but if we lack the sincerity and correct motivation the samaya will always be corrupted.

The responsibility of repairing one's samaya lies in our hands and should not be "thrown back" onto the Buddhas, Protectors or the Guru. Because of our degenerated times and the lure of samsara, we must have clear and pure sincere motivation to keep our samaya clean. And if we break our samaya, we must want to repair. If we do not then no matter what the Protector does will have little benefit.

Thank you for the sharing here...