Author Topic: Could this be Kache Marpo before Dorje Shugden's time?  (Read 4249 times)

jagger

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Could this be Kache Marpo before Dorje Shugden's time?
« on: December 12, 2011, 07:09:03 PM »
There's been a question bugging me about Kache Marpo being one of the 7 brothers of Tsiu Marpo so I did a search online and found this picture. If you look closely, the iconography of both these deities are really similar except for the positioning of his spear and left hand.

Could this be Kache Marpo before Dorje Shugden's time?

Would anyone be kind to clarify this?
Jaggerboy

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Re: Could this be Kache Marpo before Dorje Shugden's time?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2011, 08:57:53 PM »
Jagger, your post prompted me to do a bit of research into Tsiu Marpo. I found this thesis (http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses_1/submitted/etd-04102006-150128/unrestricted/BellCThesis.pdf). It struck me as rather one-sided that the author relied so heavily on De Nebesky-Wojkowitzs book since it in itself is so misinformed... and its just a bit bemusing that the author knows the book is outdated, but still continues to rely on it so heavily.

Bell quoted De Nebesky-Wojkowitzs as writing:

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Many mediums, mostly at the beginning of the trance, show also a behaviour characteristic of the deity who took possession of their body.  Thus a medium of rDo rje shugs ldan [Dorjé Shukden] produces the gurgling sound of a man in the agony of suffocation—said to be the voice of the abbot bSod nams grags pa [Sönam Drakpa] who killed himself by stuffing a ceremonial scarf into his throat...


Shouldve come to DS.com and learned that Panchen Sonam Dragpa didnt kill himself, but was actually killed by others!

Anyway, no surprise then the thesis mentions Dorje Shugden in a less-than-positive light.

DharmaDefender

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Re: Could this be Kache Marpo before Dorje Shugden's time?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2011, 09:16:15 PM »
Just done a bit more reading, and I cant say I can answer your question... in fact I can say Im more confused! According to Bells thesis, the seven brothers are also known as the seven riders. They arose when Tsiu Marpo was born...

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Due to his great maliciousness and hatred, six might demons emanated from Tsiu Marpo’s body. From his head the black obstructive might demon arose. From his white bones the divine might demon arose. From his body heat and radiance the rock might demon arose. From his blood the defiling might demon arose. From his pus the serpentine might demon arose. From his rotten garments of flesh the knife might demon arose. Having become associated with 30 red mountains and plains, these seven deities slaughtered everyone in the vicinity. They consumed the life-energy of all sentient beings and brought ruin to the three realms. 44

So if they arose as a result of Tsiu Marpos hatred and maliciousness, what confuses me is this:

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Later, in India, the great spiritual master Padmasambhava arrived at a charnel ground on the banks of a boiling lake of man-eating demons. At the midnight hour of the day he arrived, seven wolves with blood-clotted hair cried out. In response, the spiritual master manifested the form of the glorious Tamdrin (Skt. Hayagr?va). The wolves retreated to their masters, the seven horsemen, and the latter prostrated themselves before Padmasambhava.

I thought Karche Marpo was an emanation of Hayagriva?

So did Hayagriva manifest as one of Tsiu Marpos riders (Karche Marpo), then as himself (Hayagriva) addressing Karche Marpo as one of the riders?

jagger

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Re: Could this be Kache Marpo before Dorje Shugden's time?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2011, 05:30:14 AM »
Hey DD

I read up about it also. I share the same thoughts as you as it is very different. One explanation which I can find in this case is that possible emanation of Hayagriva is not part of the 7 brothers of Tsiu Marpo.

All these are guessing games until we find a qualified guru of Dorje Shugden's lineage and find out the correct story and transmissions.

Hmmmn
Jaggerboy

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Re: Could this be Kache Marpo before Dorje Shugden's time?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2011, 08:36:23 AM »
Hey DD

I read up about it also. I share the same thoughts as you as it is very different. One explanation which I can find in this case is that possible emanation of Hayagriva is not part of the 7 brothers of Tsiu Marpo.

All these are guessing games until we find a qualified guru of Dorje Shugden's lineage and find out the correct story and transmissions.

Hmmmn

Possible but Ive also heard of lamas manifesting as their students since theyre not limited by the nirmanakaya form...and Buddhas emanating in more than one location simultaneously...

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In the anuttarayoga tantra accounts, Buddha manifested simultaneously as Shakyamuni teaching The Sutras on Far-reaching Discriminating Awareness (The Prajnaparamita Sutras) and as Vajradhara teaching the tantras...