Guru Devotion and the Dalai Lama

[Ensapa]

I have been pondering on a few things, especially on the issue of Guru devotion. If the Dalai Lama is really against Trijang Rinpoche and really thinks that Trijang Rinpoche and the previous Ling Rinpoche as wrong, wouldnt it be a mass infraction of Guru Devotion?

There was a story of a very famous indian master of the teachings whose Guru was a swineherd. He was giving teachings to a large number of people and when his Guru came near, he pretended not to see his Guru and when people asked him who is the swineherd, he pretend not to know him. It is said that his eyes fell off immediately from the sockets. I cant recall which book this is from, but to me it illustrates the severity of denying one's Guru.

the other thing is this:

taken from http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1186.0

Or meant H.E. Serkong Tsenshab Rinpoche, who betrayed his own root guru of kindness H.E. the 3rd Trijang Rinpoche Losang Yeshe and H.H. the 6th Ling Rinpoche Thupten Lungtok Namgyal Trinl?and deceived Your Holiness, who died immediately from infection of dysentery in a pool of feces, as a result of slandering his gurus and abandoning Great King Dorje Possessing Strength (Dorje Shugden) that he had once adhered to, that these perils were caused by Great King Dorje Possessing Strength (Dorje Shugden)?

If the Dalai Lama was REALLY against Dorje Shugden and his own Gurus, would inauspicious signs appear for him right now? Would his Dharma work not fail? But if he is still doing well, could it be that him 'banning' Dorje Shugden may be an instruction from his Gurus and it is to only last a certain period of time? Food for thought.

[vajratruth]

It is difficult to think of the holy Dalai Lama as not having Guru devotion. I mean he IS the Avalokiteshvara after all. I have heard that even recently when the Dalai Lama speaks about Trijang Rinpoche in private he still sheds tears and why not?  If ordinary people like us can feel strong gratitude and devotion towards our Guru and people who have been a large part of our life, what more His Holiness the Dalai Lama?

Everything the Dalai Lama does has been done out of kindness and a genuine wish for peace and harmony to prevail in the world. The only exception being his ban on Dorje Shugden. But you know what is said about exceptions to the general rule? It is said that the exception proves the rule and the rule here is that the Dalai Lama is the personification of compassion and even if his actions vis-a-vis Dorje Shugden does not make ordinary sense, the Dalai Lama must have a higher purpose for effecting such a drastic move.

There is much that we do not know but let's look at what we do know. We know for sure that the Dalai Lama is a Bodhisattva because how can an ordinary being hold such a position? How can an ordinary person be given the task and have the wherewithal to protect the Dharma and cause it to spread like the Dalai Lama has? It should not escape anyone attention that the Dharma has spread furthest under the present Dalai Lama's reign and that itself should speak volumes.

Dorje Shugden's practice has spread far and wide because of the ban and can it not be that the Dalai Lama has caused this to happen albeit skillfully by creating a controversy? If the Dalai Lama does not have guru devotion, then why would he cause the one Buddhist deity so closely associated with Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche?

[Ensapa]

It is difficult to think of the holy Dalai Lama as not having Guru devotion. I mean he IS the Avalokiteshvara after all. I have heard that even recently when the Dalai Lama speaks about Trijang Rinpoche in private he still sheds tears and why not?  If ordinary people like us can feel strong gratitude and devotion towards our Guru and people who have been a large part of our life, what more His Holiness the Dalai Lama?

Everything the Dalai Lama does has been done out of kindness and a genuine wish for peace and harmony to prevail in the world. The only exception being his ban on Dorje Shugden. But you know what is said about exceptions to the general rule? It is said that the exception proves the rule and the rule here is that the Dalai Lama is the personification of compassion and even if his actions vis-a-vis Dorje Shugden does not make ordinary sense, the Dalai Lama must have a higher purpose for effecting such a drastic move.

There is much that we do not know but let's look at what we do know. We know for sure that the Dalai Lama is a Bodhisattva because how can an ordinary being hold such a position? How can an ordinary person be given the task and have the wherewithal to protect the Dharma and cause it to spread like the Dalai Lama has? It should not escape anyone attention that the Dharma has spread furthest under the present Dalai Lama's reign and that itself should speak volumes.

Dorje Shugden's practice has spread far and wide because of the ban and can it not be that the Dalai Lama has caused this to happen albeit skillfully by creating a controversy? If the Dalai Lama does not have guru devotion, then why would he cause the one Buddhist deity so closely associated with Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche?

the point that I do wanna drive home from this post is that, the Dalai Lama's decision of banning Dorje Shugden is for a bigger picture. If HHDL really "hated" Dorje Shugden, he would have erased Dorje Shugden's name in the history of Gelugpa, like the way how now the Sakyas erased Dorje Shugden from their records, histories and holy texts and recent scholars who tried to find mentions of Dorje Shugden in the texts failed to find because it is not there anymore and they really did not like Dorje Shugden at all (the current Sakya Trinzin) Contrast that to how the Dalai Lama does it, and you can see that he is somehow promoting Dorje Shugden to the masses. If he was really serious, he would have erased all trace of Dorje Shugden in the Gelugpa scriptures.

[kris]

@vajratruth, yes, HH Dalai Lama himself IS Chenrezig. However, most of the monks and practitioners are NOT enlightened YET. HH Dalai Lama's openly saying His Guru is wrong definitely send a very confusing to many monks and practitioners.

If such a highly attained master as HH Trijang Rinpoche can be wrong about certain practice, then how about Lama who are not so attained? Should the disciples openly criticize their Guru too?

One of the main reasons how Tibet can preserve the Buddhism in the past 2000 years (I felt) is because of Guru devotion. It is not a good sign for this confusion and I hope this can be cleared very soon...

[Ensapa]

@vajratruth, yes, HH Dalai Lama himself IS Chenrezig. However, most of the monks and practitioners are NOT enlightened YET. HH Dalai Lama's openly saying His Guru is wrong definitely send a very confusing to many monks and practitioners.

If such a highly attained master as HH Trijang Rinpoche can be wrong about certain practice, then how about Lama who are not so attained? Should the disciples openly criticize their Guru too?

One of the main reasons how Tibet can preserve the Buddhism in the past 2000 years (I felt) is because of Guru devotion. It is not a good sign for this confusion and I hope this can be cleared very soon...

Well, could it be that HHDL wants to make his followers to think more so that it would benefit them more? Even the Buddha would ask his students to check his teachings before accepting them. If HHDL talks about Guru devotion then says his teachers are wrong BUT gets no negative repercussion, perhaps it is part of a bigger plan? you are right that his students are not highly attained yet so they should not emulate the Dalai Lama's actions, it is a given that they should not emulate only parts of him that they like selectively, but people being people will always want to emulate people that they like, sometimes without knowing the consequences. But one thing for sure is that so far nothing bad has happened to HHDL and that is an indication that he is doing this for the greater good.

[vajratruth]

In Vajrayana Buddhism, the correct view of the guru is as the complete embodiment of all buddha families, the principle of all the mandalas, the embodiment in the single form of all yidams. We think that the guru’s body is the Sangha, his speech is the Dharma, and his mind is the Buddha. This is common knowledge amongst all Tibetan Buddhist practitioners.

Therefore for the Dalai Lama to claim that his gurus were wrong would be such a ridiculous statement and one that contradicts the foundation belief in Vajrayana, such that everyone should know that there is a deeper meaning behind the Dalai Lama's words. His Holiness, like the Buddha has always encouraged practitioners not to simply believe in everything we hear. The Dalai Lama is very wise and skillful and was in fact asking people to realize how wrong the basis of the ban was. Those who truly understand the Buddha's teachings, especially the tantras would never agree with the Dalai Lama and would instantly realize that there is a bigger picture in play.

[Ensapa]

In Vajrayana Buddhism, the correct view of the guru is as the complete embodiment of all buddha families, the principle of all the mandalas, the embodiment in the single form of all yidams. We think that the guru’s body is the Sangha, his speech is the Dharma, and his mind is the Buddha. This is common knowledge amongst all Tibetan Buddhist practitioners.

Therefore for the Dalai Lama to claim that his gurus were wrong would be such a ridiculous statement and one that contradicts the foundation belief in Vajrayana, such that everyone should know that there is a deeper meaning behind the Dalai Lama's words. His Holiness, like the Buddha has always encouraged practitioners not to simply believe in everything we hear. The Dalai Lama is very wise and skillful and was in fact asking people to realize how wrong the basis of the ban was. Those who truly understand the Buddha's teachings, especially the tantras would never agree with the Dalai Lama and would instantly realize that there is a bigger picture in play.

I dont really think that the Dalai Lama means it when he says that his teachers were wrong in the interview many years ago because if  he did he would have condemned the current Trijang Rinpoche and his words would have no power. He would have lost the trust and respect of people around him but that has not happened because perhaps, his closest aides know that he is doing this for a bigger reason, and not because he truly believes that Trijang Rinpoche was wrong. Trijang Rinpoche cannot be wrong, or else the entire Gelug system is wrong too and there would be no accomplished Gelug masters that is alive right now. So there is no way that Trijang Rinpoche is wrong, and there is no way that the Dalai Lama actually meant what he said.

[Big Uncle]

Well, I have got another perspective to this. What if the Dalai Lama and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche already discussed the ban and the Dalai Lama's plans for this was expressed to Trijang Rinpoche already. What if Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche already knows about the ban either through discussion with the Dalai Lama or maybe even through his clairvoyance. I know this is pretty radical but I am pretty sure Trijang Rinpoche already knew of it even way before the ban and the proof that he knew about it was through his seminal text of Dorje Shugden, Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors. It was published way before the ban and in it, Trijang Rinpoche wrote about a conflict between the Dalai Lama and the Protector.

Since he knew, he must have approved of it and knew the Dalai Lama's motivation. In fact, he even told one of his disciples, Samdhong Rinpoche to go all way to serve the Dalai Lama and thereby forgoing his our lineage and practice, on instruction of the Trijang Rinpoche. This leads me to think that the Dalai Lama did not break samaya at all or his own Guru would have expressed something to reprimand his student. And why didn't he do that since he already had prior knowledge? Well, he must have approved of the motivation that the Dalai Lama had. There would be no other reason that Trijang Rinpoche would have sanction this ban. That's how I see this.

[beggar]

I have been pondering on a few things, especially on the issue of Guru devotion. If the Dalai Lama is really against Trijang Rinpoche and really thinks that Trijang Rinpoche and the previous Ling Rinpoche as wrong, wouldnt it be a mass infraction of Guru Devotion?

I believe that the Dalai Lama must have his reasons for the ban and for saying this teachers are "wrong" but yes, of course on an outward level, it is most definitely a huge breaking of samaya and guru devotion.

On an even more serious level, these actions - which seem so against the practice of Guru devotion - have cause a huge amount of confusion for others and their relationships with their Gurus. The ban has created a very confusing and troubling situation for millions of practitioners around the world who hold both Dalai Lama and other Dorje Shugden lamas as their gurus. So whichever way they choose (to give up the practice or maintain the practice - it would be considered an infraction of Guru devotion).

Why would the Dalai Lama create such a situation for so many people to break samaya? And how are practitioners supposed to reconcile this difficult position they find themselves in?
(I realise this is a rhetorical question which hasn't actually found a real answer).

[Ensapa]

I have been pondering on a few things, especially on the issue of Guru devotion. If the Dalai Lama is really against Trijang Rinpoche and really thinks that Trijang Rinpoche and the previous Ling Rinpoche as wrong, wouldnt it be a mass infraction of Guru Devotion?

I believe that the Dalai Lama must have his reasons for the ban and for saying this teachers are "wrong" but yes, of course on an outward level, it is most definitely a huge breaking of samaya and guru devotion.

On an even more serious level, these actions - which seem so against the practice of Guru devotion - have cause a huge amount of confusion for others and their relationships with their Gurus. The ban has created a very confusing and troubling situation for millions of practitioners around the world who hold both Dalai Lama and other Dorje Shugden lamas as their gurus. So whichever way they choose (to give up the practice or maintain the practice - it would be considered an infraction of Guru devotion).

Why would the Dalai Lama create such a situation for so many people to break samaya? And how are practitioners supposed to reconcile this difficult position they find themselves in?
(I realise this is a rhetorical question which hasn't actually found a real answer).

As for the first question, the only reason i can think of is that he wants to separate the serious practitioners from the not so serious ones, the wheat from the chaff as we can all witness again and again that the anti Dorje Shugden practitioners, or rather, people who tend to focus more on this issue in a negative way and spend a lot of effort degrading Dorje Shugden and their followers online tend to be more vicious and less compassionate than those who are, but this is just in general because there are exceptions, but this is what i can think of based on many years of observations in many places.

On the second question, Trijang Rinpoche has made it very clear that no matter what, we are to not lose our faith in the Dalai Lama and to not lose our faith in Dorje Shugden as well. Also, the Dorje Shugden oracle has reminded all of us to not go against the Dalai Lama. Perhaps there is a bigger reason for all of this suffering imposed on us? I can only hope that at the end of the day, when the ban is lifted, all our troubles and difficulties that has been endured is well worth it.

[Dondrup Shugden]

There are moments that I doubt the Ban on Shugden is for a bigger picture. Yet as a Tibetan Buddhist it is not within my grasp to denounce that the Dalai Lama is emanation of Chenrizig.

As in our tradition and doctrine, we believe in incarnations and emanations and as such most of the time, I do not think so much about this controversy and continue in my faith for my Guru and Dorje Shugden.  My Guru has always taught to have respect for the Dalai Lama and have faith in Dorje Shugden.

Out of sheer frustration which is also a form of suffering, I pray that this Ban be lifted so that harmony is restored among Tibetan Buddhists.  This is also a very level of compassion which I hope the CTA and Dalai Lama will exercise.

[Matibhadra]

If the Dalai Lama was REALLY against Dorje Shugden and his own Gurus, would inauspicious signs appear for him right now?

Is there any sign more inauspicious than having created schism within the Sangha? According to the Buddha, this is the sure sign of rebirth in the most horrendous hell immediately in the next life. Is it not enough inauspicious to you?

Would his Dharma work not fail?

Then according to you having created schism within the Sangha means “success” in his “Dharma work”, doesn't it? Or do you have another better example of failure?

But if he is still doing well,

Many abject criminals go on “doing well” for quite long time. Henry Kissinger is already 95 and still goes to his synagogue. 91 years old George H. Bush still occasionally parachutes.

According to the Buddha, the evil effects even of one's most horrendous crimes only ripens in future lives, and therefore “doing well” in the current life means nothing to Buddhists.