Author Topic: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks  (Read 22133 times)

Mana

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Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« on: May 02, 2011, 10:08:34 PM »
" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

 - Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967


**************************

It is obvious here His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche wants us not to criticize Dalai Lama. If we can follow, practice and adhere to the practices as written in MUSIC DELIGHTING THE OCEAN OF PROTECTORS, then why be selective. Why only pick and choose what we wish to follow and or not believe. Everything composed in this text by the saintly Trijang Rinpoche must be respected otherwise we are saying Trijang Rinpoche is wrong. Same as what Dharamsala is saying about him. Dharamsala is saying he is wrong about Shugden being beneficial. We are saying Trijang Rinpoche is wrong about Dalai Lama. Either way, Trijang Rinpoche becomes wrong. If Trijang Rinpoche is wrong and we continue to disparage the Dalai Lama, then we are contradicting Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice to us. Then how will our practice bear fruit?

Mana

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2011, 03:23:21 AM »
What does the original Tibetan text really say? Below are two versions, differentiated only by English punctuation.

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama, using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

The text of the second version, starting from "or else..." is totally different in what it says, eventhough only one punctuation mark was changed into a comma. That version speaks about those Gelukpas, or people who think they are practicing Shugden and therefore think they are "good gelukpas", but who nevertheless take sides between Dalai and Panchen.

The current translation is not clear at all in what it says. What does the Tibetan text say? Are there any other translations, or are we relying on a single interpretation?


WisdomBeing

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2011, 04:53:49 PM »
I can't read Tibetan so even if I saw it, so I wouldn't be able to draw anything from it. Interpretations of different languages can always be a bit thorny. However, from my personal point of view, reading the gentle nature of HH Trijang Rinpoche from the first part of his biography (I hope the second part will be published soon, admin  :)), I am more inclined to think that the interpretation put forward by the translation of Music Delighting is accurate. Also, the statements from the young HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche where he does not speak against the Dalai Lama seem to echo the same sentiment.
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Big Uncle

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2011, 06:38:56 PM »
What does the original Tibetan text really say? Below are two versions, differentiated only by English punctuation.

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama, using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

The text of the second version, starting from "or else..." is totally different in what it says, eventhough only one punctuation mark was changed into a comma. That version speaks about those Gelukpas, or people who think they are practicing Shugden and therefore think they are "good gelukpas", but who nevertheless take sides between Dalai and Panchen.

The current translation is not clear at all in what it says. What does the Tibetan text say? Are there any other translations, or are we relying on a single interpretation?


I understand where you are getting at Zhalmed Pawo but I would still not read it as you do. I don't read Tibetan and can't give an accurate translation of its meaning. However, I think that the meaning is pretty obvious about not taking sides of either Dorje Shugden or Dalai Lama / Panchen Lama to criticize the other. This is the only meaning I can read and it makes sense because it is in line with the Buddha's teachings and also the exemplary and courageous young Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche. I find this interpretation more Dharmic and a challenge to our usual ordinary ways.

vajrastorm

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2011, 09:26:55 AM »
If we see this paragraph in the whole context of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche’s “Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors”, there can be no doubt that there is only one version. The version is as Mana has so clearly stated.

It is clear and unmistakable that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche criticizes those, who cannot be both fiercely supportive of Dorje Shugden as a Dharmapala for our times and (at the same time) greatly respectful of the Dalai Lama, as people who are narrow minded.

 His faith and trust in, and devotion to the Dharmapala Dorje Shugden throughout his entire life and his great love and respect for the Dalai Lama (as can be clearly seen in his beautiful autobiography – “The Illusory Play”) also show us that what he says in this paragraph cannot be equivocal in meaning and intent.





kurava

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2011, 12:23:10 PM »
I prostrate to all the wise Masters!

Without mincing words, HH Trijang Rinpoche, points out our delusions clearly and directly - attachment to "friends" and hatred towards our "enemies". As long as we brand people in either ways, we shall not see things as they are and inadvertently create the wrong causes for the happiness we look for.

As taught in the sevenfold cause and effect in the generation of the mind of bodhichitta - before one can even begin on the first cause of recognizing all sentient beings as one's mother one must develop equanimity.

I too had taken side. It's  easy to brand people who don't agree with us as foes and vice versa.
I'm also guilty of criticizing people who don't make a stand as "sitting on the fence". After reading the articles posted on this site giving unbias views, I now realized how wrong  and childish I had been. Instead of criticizing others, I should be more critical of myself.

thaimonk

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2011, 05:34:36 PM »
I prostrate to all the wise Masters!

Without mincing words, HH Trijang Rinpoche, points out our delusions clearly and directly - attachment to "friends" and hatred towards our "enemies". As long as we brand people in either ways, we shall not see things as they are and inadvertently create the wrong causes for the happiness we look for.

As taught in the sevenfold cause and effect in the generation of the mind of bodhichitta - before one can even begin on the first cause of recognizing all sentient beings as one's mother one must develop equanimity.

I too had taken side. It's  easy to brand people who don't agree with us as foes and vice versa.
I'm also guilty of criticizing people who don't make a stand as "sitting on the fence". After reading the articles posted on this site giving unbias views, I now realized how wrong  and childish I had been. Instead of criticizing others, I should be more critical of myself.

What a powerful realization. What a powerful post. Your post has impact on me. Thank you. I agree with what you say.


LosangKhyentse

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2011, 12:29:28 PM »
" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

 - Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967


**************************

It is obvious here His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche wants us not to criticize Dalai Lama. If we can follow, practice and adhere to the practices as written in MUSIC DELIGHTING THE OCEAN OF PROTECTORS, then why be selective. Why only pick and choose what we wish to follow and or not believe. Everything composed in this text by the saintly Trijang Rinpoche must be respected otherwise we are saying Trijang Rinpoche is wrong. Same as what Dharamsala is saying about him. Dharamsala is saying he is wrong about Shugden being beneficial. We are saying Trijang Rinpoche is wrong about Dalai Lama. Either way, Trijang Rinpoche becomes wrong. If Trijang Rinpoche is wrong and we continue to disparage the Dalai Lama, then we are contradicting Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice to us. Then how will our practice bear fruit?

Mana


However it is read, it is clear that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche would not want us to criticize His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Even the current Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is an open Shugden practitioner but does not disparage the Dalai Lama or speak against him. Trijang Rinpoche's website has a picture of the current Trijang Rinpoche and Dalai Lama meeting. The message of even the current Trijang Rinpoche is continue your Shugden practice but do not disparage the Dalai Lama.

TK

Mana

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2011, 04:27:18 AM »
His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche composed a whole volume on Shudgen in order to preserve the lineage after he is gone. The practices, rituals, lineage, history are all in this volume. He knew that obstacles for Dorje Shugden's practice will arise after all the great elite senior masters like himself have passed away. While he was alive, no one could attempt to destroy Shugden's lineage. Therefore he warned us for the future back when he was alive to respect His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden. He warned us when he was alive knowing later, the ban (obstacle) would arise temporarily. Dalai Lama and Shugden would be working together hand in hand to make Shugden's practice/Buddha Dharma simultaneously grow contrary to outer appearances. Trijang Rinpoche exhorted to not criticize Dalai Lama and not criticize Dorje Shugden when the obstacles arose. He was sending a warning for the future (now) from the past. Remember when Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche wrote this volume and warning for the future, he had to be skillful as Dalai Lama was around. He could not write too overtly yet his message was/is very clear. Very relevant today. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's attainments and powers of divination were renowned as were his skill and knowledge in disseminating the sacred Dharma. We should trust Trijang Rinpoche in totality.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 04:28:58 AM by Mana »

beggar

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2011, 05:49:34 AM »
Beggars are sometimes not the brightest... I am sorry but I don't understand how one punctuation mark can change the entire meaning of the passage? The meaning is very clear, as Mana and many have already pointed out.

It is very inspiring but actually not surprising to read this from Trijang Rinpoche - this attitude of maintaining one's practice while never speaking out against any lama or practitioner is being upheld very strongly by many, many, many admirable high lamas around the world today.
Let's see a few examples:
You never heard Gangchen Rinpoche speaking out against the Dalai Lama, but he has become very famous throughout the world for his healing and practices. It works in the converse also. Even Lama Zopa, who has chosen to not do the practice, has never spoken a bad word against Dorje Shugden practitioners and remains very respectful.

So the message from Trijang Rinpoche is clear - that whatever "side" you happen to be on, it is to never take sides, to become an "ordinary being"  who see aryas also as ordinary beings led by ordinary motivations. It is important for us to always maintain respect for the teachers, no matter how much we don't understand them. This applies in all aspects of Dharma. To start criticising, or taking sides makes our own practice unstable. If we criticise one lama, then it becomes possible for us to criticise another lama, and nothing becomes sacred anymore for ourselves.

honeydakini

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2011, 02:57:34 PM »

So the message from Trijang Rinpoche is clear - that whatever "side" you happen to be on, it is to never take sides, to become an "ordinary being"  who see aryas also as ordinary beings led by ordinary motivations. It is important for us to always maintain respect for the teachers, no matter how much we don't understand them. This applies in all aspects of Dharma. To start criticising, or taking sides makes our own practice unstable. If we criticise one lama, then it becomes possible for us to criticise another lama, and nothing becomes sacred anymore for ourselves.


This is so true and I appreciate reading the quote from Trijang Rinpoche again. I have come across people in my centre who have been criticising lamas for over 20 years. They are much older than me and been in the Dharma for much longer than myself, some even before I was born! But they are still not stable, they still have many excuses for not committing to their practices and they still like to indulge in gossip and lots and lots of chatter about lamas, centres, practitioners and practices all around the country. I had a lady tell us one day that she had to leave teachings halfway because she had to go to attend another lama that happened to be visiting town!

I think that people slip into criticising lamas because it becomes a far easier option than committing and doing your practices with all your heart and life and "sacrifices". It is easier to sit on the fence forever and just criticise - if there is something wrong with one side, or one lama, then it justifies not having to do your practice. It gets "harder" when you " choose a side"  - then there is commitment and no more escape.

So Trijang Rinpoche speaks on so many levels with this quotation - not just with the Dorje Shugden issue, but in all our modern dilemmas where people shop around for teachers and change their commitments around like accessories.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2011, 03:18:13 PM »
I like the "message from the past for the future" concept... 

personally, while I do of course believe that Trijang Rinpoche did mean for us to not disparage the Dalai Lama nor Dorje Shugden, what is the worst that can happen if Trijang Rinpoche did not mean it that way? The worst case scenario is that I did not think badly of the Dalai Lama. How bad is that?

When i tell some of my Dharma friends that some Shugden practitioners are not against the Dalai Lama, they actually want to listen and understand, because they heard that all Shugden practitioners hate the Dalai Lama and want to kill him! Before i came to this website, I also thought not very Buddhist thoughts about the Dalai Lama although I felt deep inside that it wasn't right to feel this way. So when this website explained a different way of looking at things, supported by what Trijang Rinpoche said, it made me feel much better about my practice. Perhaps the different ways of looking at this issue is part of the 84,000 ways too - because of all our different minds.. I just know that this feels right for me and I'm very grateful for that.
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Helena

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2011, 03:30:37 PM »
Honestly, I do not believe that any Buddhist teachings and Dharma will ever teach us to continue loving our friends and families and persist in hating our enemies and exclude strangers throughout all our lives. Nor do I believe that Buddha's words and Dharma will ever encourage us to pick sides and continue holding onto our preferred sides, like our own attachments.

It would indeed be very strange for the teachings to encourage us to become more narrow-minded and limited in our own views. Just my personal observation of how Buddhism has actually improved people I know and 'widened' their perspectives, not the around way around. After all, when our views and minds are open, we do become less and less petty.  :)
Helena

triesa

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2011, 05:14:22 PM »
I think the message is pretty clear from Trijang Rinpoche, and the message is for those who are shugden practitioners , to continue the practice but do not speak againist or disparage the Dalai Lama. This is indeed what a buddhist should do, buddhists accept and respect others' religions, so let alone be it a worship of a different deity within our buddhist world.

I have only noticed since the Dalai Lama embarked on the DS ban,  all the high lamas who are Shugden practiitioners have been either practising Shugden quietly at the back or they chose not to practice for a particular reason. In any of the cases, I have not heard anything bad said from them either against the Dalai Lama or other shugden practitioners.

In fact these high lamas who are Shugden practitioners have shown so much intergrity that I find propitiating Dorje Shugden as my Dharma protector very comforting. 




WoselTenzin

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Re: Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche speaks
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2011, 02:27:48 PM »
" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

 - Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967





I thought about what Trijang Rinpoche said about ordinary being beings.   It made me realize that only ordinary beings who have no attainments and realization will have attachment to friends and aversion towards "foes", will take sides and criticize the other party who do not concur with them.  That explains why we never hear high Lamas criticizing others even if they are being put down down, ostracized and put in very difficult situations.  They endure all injustice and criticism with patience and fortitude.

It behoves us to follow their examples as Trijang Rinpoche has clearly stated that if we act under the influence of our attachment and hatred, we are creating the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future.  I find this scary as I am definitely guilty of it.

I have taken sides and criticized others who have different views than me.  I realize how wrong and childish I have been.  What Kurava said about not seeing things as they are and creating the wrong causes for the happiness we seek as long as we brand people really makes me take a step back and take stock of how I see things and act upon them.