What is the process of taking trance of DS?

[Helena]

Can anyone just request to be an Oracle or make a decision to be an Oracle?

It would seem like such a noble and beneficial "profession" - an Oracle can help so many people.

How would one go about that?

Just curious....

[Big Uncle]

Prior to Official Recoginition as Oracle:

The Training of the selected individual.


1. Migtseyma full length retreat (extensive form) minimum 1,000,000 mantras.
2. Full lengh Yamantaka retreat/fire puja.
3. Full length Hayagriva retreat/fire puja (optional)
4. full length Dorje Shugden retreat/fire puja
5. Tsagoo (opening of Channels and meridians by a Lama) (Dagom Rinpoche did tsagoo for the oracle of Gaden. Trijang Rinpoche performed tsagoo on Sera's current oracle. Dungkar Oracle had tsagoo done by the previous Domo Geshe Rinpoche)
6. Restricted diet free from meat, eggs, alcohol, garlic, smoking (at least during training). Both monk and lay persons may become oracles.

The above is done over and again depending on the capacity of the oracle. Some can take trance faster, some take more time.  Some can take trance within a year, some five. It is dependent on the oracle. The whole procedure is overseen by a Lama from beginning to full completion of training.

After the Oracle is trained and ready. Then the oracle is officially recognized by the Monastic officials.

TK

Dear Helena,
Tk has already elaborated at the beginning of this thread. Just to add, there are some people with a natural ability to take trance and there are people who can be trained to take trance. Whichever one the prospective oracle is, he must go through the prescribed retreats because it will purify and bless the channels so only the right deity will enter the oracle. Anyway, the retreats are not really meant just for oracles, it would be tremendously beneficial for anyone who wishes to engage in them.

[Helena]

Hi Big Uncle,

Thank you for re-posting what TK wrote.

It is my fault for not framing my question properly. My apologies.

Actually, what I wanted to know was - if someone like me, though very much un-qualified, could become an Oracle and how would I go about it from where I am.

From TK's writings and sharing, I am aware that these are the training we have to go through. But I wanted to know if it is something I can just go up to my Guru and request though I am not ordained nor qualified in any way.

However prior to this, I managed to consult one of my senior Dharma brothers earlier.

He shared that it is the Lama who creates the Oracles and can make anyone into an Oracle. So, if I have faith in my Guru, my Guru would know which path is best for me - to be an Oracle or not, or something else entirely. And perhaps, I need not request after all.

Most importantly, it is my samaya with my Guru and keeping all my commitments with my Guru and following all that my Guru has instructed me. These would help create the causes for me to become much more than what I am now.

Sorry, this is getting a little personal - I have always been very attracted and fascinated with Oracles.

I find them truly beautiful and beneficial since very young.

Thank you, Big Uncle, for taking the time and trouble to answer me.

Really appreciate it.

[triesa]

I think Dorje Shugden well deserved the pandit hat. Why?

Because he is three in one.....The lama, the Yidam and the protector.

[Big Uncle]

Hi Big Uncle,

Thank you for re-posting what TK wrote.

It is my fault for not framing my question properly. My apologies.

Actually, what I wanted to know was - if someone like me, though very much un-qualified, could become an Oracle and how would I go about it from where I am.

From TK's writings and sharing, I am aware that these are the training we have to go through. But I wanted to know if it is something I can just go up to my Guru and request though I am not ordained nor qualified in any way.

However prior to this, I managed to consult one of my senior Dharma brothers earlier.

He shared that it is the Lama who creates the Oracles and can make anyone into an Oracle. So, if I have faith in my Guru, my Guru would know which path is best for me - to be an Oracle or not, or something else entirely. And perhaps, I need not request after all.

Most importantly, it is my samaya with my Guru and keeping all my commitments with my Guru and following all that my Guru has instructed me. These would help create the causes for me to become much more than what I am now.

Sorry, this is getting a little personal - I have always been very attracted and fascinated with Oracles.

I find them truly beautiful and beneficial since very young.

Thank you, Big Uncle, for taking the time and trouble to answer me.

Really appreciate it.

Dear Helena,
No worries, no need to apologise for a small matter. I like your questions and back to your question, I also think that it would be up to a Lama and you can make request to the Lama to be an oracle but be ready for the retreats and training for it. Depending on our psychic channels and karma, I could imagine some oracles-to-be would take a longer time to train than others.

On the other hand, I don't think it is necessary for an oracle to be ordained because there are many lay oracles in Tibet and if I am not mistaken, there have been a lay Dorje Shugden oracle. Hence, anybody can be an oracle, it is whether they would want to do it because an oracle cannot make this into a business or they loose their power to take trance. Another important aspect of this is samaya with their Guru or they would also loose their power to take trance.

[WisdomBeing]

A friend of mine just told me that it is a very painful process to clear the meridians of the trainee oracle. Is this true? I can imagine if we are all such contaminated bodies - with alcohol, tobacco and any illegal substances! - and our negative karma of course...

and should non-oracles (eg joe bloggs like me) get their meridians purified too? or is it a very complex process?

[Helena]

Thanks, Big Uncle. Truly appreciate your answers and especially, your time taken to answer.

Hey, WB - I just found out that it is true that oracles in training do need to get their chakras or meridians 'cleared' or purified. Whether it is painful or not depends on the individual itself. I think some people have more to clear than others? Also different people have varied threshold if pain and different degrees of negative karma.

Apparently, the entourage of the Protector will come and clear the oracle in training's meridians and purify his or her 'vessel' before the Protector can enter.

This clearing or purification of the meridians and chakras can take up to months - depending on the individual again. Every case or individual is unique and different. Considering one's past karmic imprints, affinity and even aptitude.

I believe such a process should be extremely beneficial for anyone or everyone - not just because one is training to be an oracle.

It is, essentially a purification process. That is always good, considering how much negative karma one has been accumulating all this time.

If anyone has any more information, please do share.

Thank you so much.

[Roberto]

I'm a little confused now... does Dorjeshugden choose the oracle, does the lama choose the oracle, or both?

Does an oracle know they are an oracle?
Does a person volunteer themselves to become an oracle?
Is it for life?

[Big Uncle]

I'm a little confused now... does Dorjeshugden choose the oracle, does the lama choose the oracle, or both?

Does an oracle know they are an oracle?
Does a person volunteer themselves to become an oracle?
Is it for life?

I have heard that there are some people who have natural ability to take trance. They exhibit this by having fits and spasms especially in holy places. So usually, the prospective oracle would know if he is aware of the signs. If it is in holy places, it is most likely the entourage of the Protector that is entering. The deity may not be able to speak until the retreats are completed. The oracle would have to go through a barrage of tests by High Lamas to affirm that it is the right deity entering the oracle.

I have not heard of an oracle without a natural ability yet but technically that should be possible too with the right training from a qualified Lama. So, I think technically there should be oracles that would volunteer to be one. Oracles are not for life because as the oracle ages, the trances would be too much for the oracle's body. So a Lama would request the deity not to enter and sometimes, he would even seal his psychic entrances to prevent this from happening. 

[WisdomBeing]

I have heard that there are some people who have natural ability to take trance. They exhibit this by having fits and spasms especially in holy places. So usually, the prospective oracle would know if he is aware of the signs. If it is in holy places, it is most likely the entourage of the Protector that is entering. The deity may not be able to speak until the retreats are completed. The oracle would have to go through a barrage of tests by High Lamas to affirm that it is the right deity entering the oracle.

I have not heard of an oracle without a natural ability yet but technically that should be possible too with the right training from a qualified Lama. So, I think technically there should be oracles that would volunteer to be one. Oracles are not for life because as the oracle ages, the trances would be too much for the oracle's body. So a Lama would request the deity not to enter and sometimes, he would even seal his psychic entrances to prevent this from happening. 

I read this amazing article about the biography of this oracle, His Eminence Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama, (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1127) who was the uncle of Ven. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso but has since passed on in 2002. The article mentions that H.E. Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama exhibited this natural ability of an oracle when he was 17 years old on a visit to Bodhgaya. Do read the article for more information on this.

[Helena]

You are right, WB - it is a great article!

Very moving and inspiring.

Kuten Lama was indeed very special. I especially liked this paragraph -

Finally we reached Buxa in northern India. There we met a Tibetan official called Phala Dronyer Chenmo. At his home he requested Kyabje Zimey Rinpoche to join the Tantric College re-established in Dalhousie. The Chushur Samkhar family was also sent to Dalhousie to a home for displaced people. I was left behind because I was not counted as a lama or an old person. So I stayed in Buxa with about 1500 monks from all traditions, not only Gelugpa.

I stayed at Buxa for ten years at the request of the officials of His Holiness and served as an oracle. Whenever there was a major decision to be made I was consulted, irrespective of any tradition posing the questions. I also served as a representative at many conferences in New Delhi and Dharamsala during this time.

That is the way it should be - everyone living together, helping one another - all traditions living in harmony despite the chaos surrounding them and the challenges that laid before them.

How quickly they have forgotten...that makes me sad.

[DSFriend]

I have heard that there are some people who have natural ability to take trance. They exhibit this by having fits and spasms especially in holy places. So usually, the prospective oracle would know if he is aware of the signs. If it is in holy places, it is most likely the entourage of the Protector that is entering. The deity may not be able to speak until the retreats are completed. The oracle would have to go through a barrage of tests by High Lamas to affirm that it is the right deity entering the oracle.

I have not heard of an oracle without a natural ability yet but technically that should be possible too with the right training from a qualified Lama. So, I think technically there should be oracles that would volunteer to be one. Oracles are not for life because as the oracle ages, the trances would be too much for the oracle's body. So a Lama would request the deity not to enter and sometimes, he would even seal his psychic entrances to prevent this from happening. 

I read this amazing article about the biography of this oracle, His Eminence Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama, (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1127) who was the uncle of Ven. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso but has since passed on in 2002. The article mentions that H.E. Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama exhibited this natural ability of an oracle when he was 17 years old on a visit to Bodhgaya. Do read the article for more information on this.

Dorje Shugden in 3,211 words or less http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5878

Incidentally, a point that should be mentioned for the clarification of context with regard to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s position, is that Geshe la’s brother has worked directly with the monk who serves as the Oracle of Dorje Shugden

I was hoping to find the name of this brother but the above is all I could find.

Nevertheless, I love reading about oracles and how they become such beneficial beings due to the kindness of the lamas.

[WisdomBeing]

I have heard that there are some people who have natural ability to take trance. They exhibit this by having fits and spasms especially in holy places. So usually, the prospective oracle would know if he is aware of the signs. If it is in holy places, it is most likely the entourage of the Protector that is entering. The deity may not be able to speak until the retreats are completed. The oracle would have to go through a barrage of tests by High Lamas to affirm that it is the right deity entering the oracle.

I have not heard of an oracle without a natural ability yet but technically that should be possible too with the right training from a qualified Lama. So, I think technically there should be oracles that would volunteer to be one. Oracles are not for life because as the oracle ages, the trances would be too much for the oracle's body. So a Lama would request the deity not to enter and sometimes, he would even seal his psychic entrances to prevent this from happening. 

I read this amazing article about the biography of this oracle, His Eminence Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama, (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1127) who was the uncle of Ven. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso but has since passed on in 2002. The article mentions that H.E. Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama exhibited this natural ability of an oracle when he was 17 years old on a visit to Bodhgaya. Do read the article for more information on this.

Dorje Shugden in 3,211 words or less http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5878

Incidentally, a point that should be mentioned for the clarification of context with regard to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s position, is that Geshe la’s brother has worked directly with the monk who serves as the Oracle of Dorje Shugden

I was hoping to find the name of this brother but the above is all I could find.

Nevertheless, I love reading about oracles and how they become such beneficial beings due to the kindness of the lamas.

Just curious - if Geshe-la's brother works closely with the oracle monk and Geshe-la's uncle was this renowned venerable oracle, i wonder why Geshe-la discourages oracles in his organisation. Perhaps it is because his organisation is western centric though i heard that it is also growing in the east, where oracles would be more easily acceptable.

[DSFriend]

A friend of mine just told me that it is a very painful process to clear the meridians of the trainee oracle. Is this true? I can imagine if we are all such contaminated bodies - with alcohol, tobacco and any illegal substances! - and our negative karma of course...

and should non-oracles (eg joe bloggs like me) get their meridians purified too? or is it a very complex process?

Does anybody know how long it'll take for the alcohol/tobacco to clear out from our system?

[Roberto]

painful? My god... ouch. We have all seen the movies where spirits / demons enter the human body. How so the oracle?

I read some where that spirits, ghosts can enter through our orrifices, fingers, toes etc. What about deities such as Dorje Shugden. I'd hate to think that such an enlightened being would enter through the backdoor (no disrespect).

If a deity can enter through one door can anything else follow that is unenlightened?

Hey just why would the oracle sit in on conferences... because its not the actual oracle whom they consult for answers is it. meaning to say as a person the oracles opinion is not much credibility, but if it's the deity then granted.