Author Topic: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden  (Read 13757 times)

Big Uncle

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2011, 12:41:28 AM »
Wow! This is quite amazing! transcript. We are indeed fortunate to have Kyabje Zong Rinpoche's teachings still surviving with us. Although he is such a strict and traditional Lama but he has indeed made allowances for practitioners of today. I think it is through his observations while he travelled throughout Europe and American and his own clairvoyance to know the level of practitioners that will inherit Dorje Shugden's sacred practice. Hence, his explanations are truly for our times. Due to scriptural authenticity, lineage authenticity and also it is logically sound, how can these Lamas or their teachings and practices ever be wrong?

Helena

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2011, 09:38:32 AM »
Dear TK,

What you wrote made me contemplate on how fortunate I am to have a Guru, who not only guides, teaches and cares for me, but also exemplify the inspiring Dharmic code of conduct.

Ignorance is a very scary thing. Without knowledge or even the desire to find out more or investigate and just wanting to be spoon-fed all the time would make us into "Living Vegetables". We are basically, in a awakened state of coma - alive and walking but not really thinking anymore, and not using our own mind. Our minds have become dull and numb - and for some, dead.

If our minds are 'dead' or numb - then there is really no hope for any sort of transformation to occur. Enlightenment will become a dream and just a myth.

Now, I realise why my Guru pushes us all to think and search deeper, to investigate and analyse - to always use our minds, be alert and aware, to arm ourselves with information and knowledge.

Fortunate are those who have faith in their Gurus and who hold their samayas with their Gurus well.

Without our Guru, there is no possibility of transformation and liberation.
Helena

dsiluvu

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2012, 10:29:24 AM »


By logical debate, if these lineage lamas can be wrong, then the Dalai Lama could be manifesting wrong. Since Dalai Lama says they are wrong, he is 'allowing' to say he could be wrong by his disciples. Anyone and everyone could be wrong. If that is the case, it is very damaging for samaya. If all disciples from the time of the Buddha till now start thinking their gurus are wrong or could be wrong it drastically damages the balace of their practice. Dalai Lama has an extra advantage as he is the defacto ruler/king of Tibet, on a political basis, his commands must be obeyed. So although as a spiritual teacher, he could be 'wrong', you still cannot 'defy' his commands as your leader within the Tibetans or you are a traitor. Or better yet, a spy.

Being branded a Chinese spy because you don't condone Tibetan govt policies is very common these days. The majority of peasant and unexposed Tibetans living in India and abroad very much relate to the spy/traitor accusations. They won't or can't think any deeper. If the Tibetan Govt or Dalai Lama says/hints you are a spy/traitor, THEN YOU ARE. Simple as that. Yes, there is no democracy within the Tibetan Govt in exile whatsoever. But how long can this last? Tibetan Govt's only leader is already 75. It is just a matter of time where a group of exiles will have to mature, grow up and fend for themselves without their leader. Let see what India does to the refugees when their leader is not around anymore. The recent Karmapa scandal might be an indication that the Indian Govt does not 'respect' anyone else or will not entertain anyone else besides the Dalai Lama. That is not good news for the Tibetans who are jumping up and down fanatically pointing fingers at who is a spy and who is not.

In actuality, the Tibetans should just keep quiet, quit making more schisms/divisions among their own communities, because without the Dalai Lama they will be on their own. Sadly, probably not make it very well either from the looks of things now. Tibetans are spoon fed by Dalai Lama/Tibetan govt IF THEY REJECT SHUGDEN AND AGREE WITH EVERY OTHER POLITICAL VIEWS RIGHT OR WRONG OF THEIR GOVT.

In guru yogas of Tara, Chenresig, Tsongkapa, Yamantaka, etc you have dissolve your guru daily into you. You meditate your mind and your lama's mind melds into one and therefore many supreme attainments arise. Many supreme attainments arise because your guru is unsurpassed and attained. Well if he's attained, he wouldn't make any mistakes? If you start thinking he can make mistakes, then you are dissolving a unattained ordinary person into your mindstream daily. What attainments can that bring?

Very dangerous and difficult route to traverse.

TK


I bring this old post back as the above mentioned by TK is something worth for us to refresh our memories on. Seriously if we are to go down the route that His Holiness Kyabje Pabongkha and His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche and all those Highly attained Lamas emanations of Buddhas can make such a grave mistake and is wrong for so many years and only NOW His Holiness also an emanation of the Buddha Avalokiteshvara realise that Dorje Shugden is bad and a demon practice. It has seriously started OPENING the DOORS for everything His Holiness does is highly questionable and possibly wrong. How can for so so many years, so many life-times His Holiness could not see this if He is a Buddha and only realises it only now?

It is either
A: His Holiness is doing this to make those who can see and think big... "look deeper in to this"
OR
B: His Holiness is not a Buddha and a Fraud and well the whole Tibetan community and people are definitely being led WRONGLY.... hence why bother to support to FREE TIBET so that they can be led by wrong leadership???

Also further thought discussed here on  Topic: The Negligent Buddhas
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2875.0

vajratruth

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2012, 10:16:57 PM »
i think it is interesting that in the 80's, there seems to be criticism of Shugden already, although the main anti-Shugden campaign/ban didn't kick off til 1996?

Does anyone know when exactly did the Dalai Lama stop practising? And what triggered it?

The Dalai Lama started to distance himself from Dorje Shugden after the publication of the Yellow Book in 1975, which is strange because His Holiness himself strongly condemned the publication of that book which says to me that he did not agree with the contents of the book. Reading the transcript of Zong Rinpoche's advice to Dorje Shugden initiates, His Holiness stated clearly that we should focus on the practices of the Gelugpa lineage which carries Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings and there were no conditions imposed to the effect that we cannot receive teachings from other lineages. To me, it makes a lot of sense because when we embark on a course, it is only wise that we stay on that particular course in order to receive its full benefits instead of making up our own cocktail of practices. It is very clear what Zong Rinpoche said and I trust him completely.

And you raised an interesting question which I have often wondered about, that is, what exactly triggered the Dalai Lama to stop his own Dorje Shugden practice. I tried to search for early accounts of Nechung's advice to stop the practice but could only find information which leads me to suspect that the state oracle's advice was given after the fact and almost as a supporting alibi for a decision that was already made earlier.

Can anyone shed light on this? Were there any events or incidences that triggered the Dalai Lama's decision? The only thing I could think of is that by 1980's the Tibetans were already restless after two decades in exile and there were no signs that Tibetans was any closer to regaining their country. I think it was around then that the blame was laid on Dorje Shugden. That itself does not make much sense because if it was true that Dorje Shugden was the real cause, then why wait for so long to give that advice?

Ensapa

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2012, 01:00:19 AM »
i think it is interesting that in the 80's, there seems to be criticism of Shugden already, although the main anti-Shugden campaign/ban didn't kick off til 1996?

Does anyone know when exactly did the Dalai Lama stop practising? And what triggered it?

The ban started during the mid 1970s, as what vajratruth has pointed out, when the yellow book was released, and at that time the yellow book was used as an excuse to prove that Dorje Shugden was harmful (oddly, Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors was not referenced at all.)

Later, HHDL made up a lot of other excuses, each different from the other during his public talks on why Dorje Shugden is bad, including

- that it was a practice that came from a vision (Tapu Dorjechang)
- it shortens his lifespan
- it works against tibet's independence
- Trijang Rinpoche hid his Dorje Shugden items when Karmapa came to visit (implicating that the practice was not proper)
- Ling Rinpoche refused to give him sogtae
- Nechung advised him against Dorje Shugden
- The 10th Panchen Lama saw Dorje Shugden as harmful
- the 5th and 13th Dalai Lama banned him

these are some of the inconsistent points that were given to as why and to me it appears to be very random and inconsistent.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2015, 12:24:32 PM »
It is very emotional for me to have this great fortune to still hear the voice of our great Lineage Master, HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang teaching us on the practise of Dorje Shugden.

Thank you our lineage masters and may we have the courage and perseverance to always uphold your advice until the Ban is lifted.