Author Topic: Escaping the BAN imposed  (Read 5203 times)

dsiluvu

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Escaping the BAN imposed
« on: July 04, 2012, 05:42:42 PM »
From a 3rd party perspective...
QUESTION: Why can't the Shugden practitioners escape from the BAN?
It's hilarious how he writes and describes CTA a government with a "toothless status"




Present-day Discourses of the Shugden Controversy


In the hope of gaining some insight into how democracy and civil rights are perceived and conceptualized among the Tibetans in a time of crisis, I have turned my attention towards the current debate on the Shugden controversy. Being a very contemporary debate, most printed sources are not up to date, which is why I have relied mainly on web-pages and blogs to identify the main discourses.

Let it be said right away that a lion's share of this debate is not about democracy and civil rights at all, as the majority of the arguments put forth remain deeply imbedded in what we could call "Tibetan traditionalist religious debate". The sheer weight of this kind of arguments may be the reason why it has so far sparked only wonder and surprise, with only a few sympathetic statements from communities and organisations not directly involved in Tibetan Buddhism. 

Firstly, Shugden proponents have often classified the Dalai Lama's discouragement of Dorje Shugden practice as a "ban" on a religious practice without qualifying this "ban" further. Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary defines the term "ban" as " to forbid something officially"[56] and, taken as a strictly legal term, this expression seems somewhat at odds with the Dalai Lama's and CTA's status in the Indian society and their very limited ability to ban anything on Indian soil. After all the possibility of escaping the ban imposed on the Tibetan communities by applying for Indian citizenship is existent and has in fact been considered by some Shugden devotees.

Taken in a wider sense, however, it seems to imply that a decree coming from the Dalai Lama, being backed by CTA and the Tibetan civil society, may amount to something similar to a "real legal ban", had they in fact possessed the means to enforce laws and a full-scale government apparatus. This hypothesis is also brought forth as an argument by some Shugden proponents to back their claims. Wording the discouragement of Shugden practice as a "ban" may also unveil the force of "social pressure" which can be exerted in a highly communal society such as the Tibetan diaspora. Disregarding the somewhat toothless status of CTA, it seems that something which feels like a "real ban" can actually be imposed within the Tibetan communities - even without the means of law enforcement.
(That's right honey!)

CTA on the other hand has consistently referred to the "ban" as "advice"  (YEAH RIGHT) given by the Dalai Lama, although the phrase "In forbidding the propitiation of Shugden" has sneaked into the resolution from The Tibetan Parliament in Exile on June 6th, '96. Seemingly well aware of the civil-rights issues that such a ban may provoke, they take great care to stress that such matters "are up to the individual" and point to their lacking ability to enforce laws on Indian soil.[65] They also stress that "As the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people, it is the responsibility of the Dalai Lama, to give proper guidance to his people" and refer to this advice with "thanks and gratitude". In doing so the imposing of the ban comes to look more like a campaign led by the government - on a par with what most democratic governments undertake from time to time when they e.g. try to ban smoking in their societies.

The point of the matter is of course how this campaign - or ban - is carried out in real life. As the High Court in Delhi is currently investigating the critical issues of CTA's campaign, I will not forego their judgement but for now stick to the conclusion that what one side regards as a genuine ban, the other regards as a strongly felt campaign.

Well what do we feel... a BAN or a strongly felt campaign???

http://info-buddhism.com/Pluralism_the_Hard_Way_Klaus_Loehrer.html

michaela

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Re: Escaping the BAN imposed
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 11:37:14 AM »
What I consider a ban is anything that forbid me from practicing my faith openly.  I cannot go out and discuss my faith with my friends openly for fear that my Lama will be ostracized.  And I do not like small centers even outside Indian soil acting as “police” and spread out news that bigger centers are bad because they practice DS.  We do not even know whether they are doing this out of jealousy or purely because of their faith to HHDL. 
 

dsiluvu

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Re: Escaping the BAN imposed
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 04:50:39 AM »
What I consider a ban is anything that forbid me from practicing my faith openly.  I cannot go out and discuss my faith with my friends openly for fear that my Lama will be ostracized.  And I do not like small centers even outside Indian soil acting as “police” and spread out news that bigger centers are bad because they practice DS.  We do not even know whether they are doing this out of jealousy or purely because of their faith to HHDL.

My heart goes out to those sanghas and people who have been victims of this foolish Ban/Campaign. Banning people's faith is pure discrimination and totally against Human Rights. How could CTA get their way with Human Rights when what they put out there is the opposite. The cause resembles the results. It is awefully sad that there are so many affected in and outside of Dharamsala. These are the people who follow HHDL blindly and/or just wanna be on the good books for whatever reasons. Maybe by being on HHDL good books or taking pictures with Him, makes them feel they can boast to others how good they are because reality is they have nothing else to show. Hence they need to ride on HHDL to get some kind of recognition from others which is rather sad because it is no longer about Dharma. This is how Buddhism generates.

However, I do think Shar and Serpom is courageous that they are separated and actually to think of it, in the long term it will do them good because they are FREE and no longer under the jurisdiction of the CTA. They are like NKT in some ways and is starting a new revolution of inspiring more and more monasteries with DS practice to manifest. Plus they are not offending China, hence the potential to spread Dorje Shugden and Lama Tsongkhapa teachings in China is easier and well isn't that the whole point.

Well whether it is a BAN or a Campaign... Shugdenpas need to bend together to educate and spread the story of Dorje Shugden to as many as possible and what better way to do so then through the wonderful world of web x

michaela

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Re: Escaping the BAN imposed
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 11:48:27 PM »
As long as CTA still move along and continue their archaic faith based discrimination policies, they will not be respected and taken seriously and their effort to discuss with China will be undermined.

I really hope more and more Shugden monasteries will come up and spread the truth about DS.

Ensapa

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Re: Escaping the BAN imposed
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2012, 05:21:12 AM »
I have been thinking, the ban only affects Tibetans that are currently in Dharamsala. The ban cannot touch or affect anyone effectively that is not within the CTA's reach, for example, such as outside of Dharamsala. If that is the case why do the Tibetans not go to another country and start a new life there? there are many pro DS Lamas who are dotted all around Europe and the US who would be happy to help them. that way, they will not be subjected to all the horrible things that they are now.

dsdisciple

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Re: Escaping the BAN imposed
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2012, 07:50:16 AM »
Dear Ensapa,

I wish this is the case that the ban only affects Dharamsala but the sad truth that the effects of the ban are felt in countries outside of India where Tibetans are living. 

I have personally found effects of the ban even here in Australia where I live...because I am low key and off the radar it is difficult for pro HHDL to engage me on this issue...I see no discrepancy in following advice of my own gurus / lineage Lamas and respect HHDL so much for all he has done for the world-wide acceptance of Buddhism.

Why? through mutual respect and first and foremost I choose to treat pro HHDL equally and make a stand by being human as opposed to a person on the other side of the debate/ban.

The difference I suspect...Shugden practitioners from all around the world choose to represent our lineage, dharma teachings and practice given to us from our Gurus to the best of our abilities / quietly and determined to bring our practice out of the shadows onto the world stage!

xo







Ensapa

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Re: Escaping the BAN imposed
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2012, 07:55:55 AM »
Dear Ensapa,

I wish this is the case that the ban only affects Dharamsala but the sad truth that the effects of the ban are felt in countries outside of India where Tibetans are living. 

I have personally found effects of the ban even here in Australia where I live...because I am low key and off the radar it is difficult for pro HHDL to engage me on this issue...I see no discrepancy in following advice of my own gurus / lineage Lamas and respect HHDL so much for all he has done for the world-wide acceptance of Buddhism.

Why? through mutual respect and first and foremost I choose to treat pro HHDL equally and make a stand by being human as opposed to a person on the other side of the debate/ban.

The difference I suspect...Shugden practitioners from all around the world choose to represent our lineage, dharma teachings and practice given to us from our Gurus to the best of our abilities / quietly and determined to bring our practice out of the shadows onto the world stage!

xo

The ban might cause certain Dharma centers to have disharmony with each other, but it does not affect people who chose to go to another country where CTA's presence is not that felt and at the same time do not reveal their Dorje Shugden practice. In those scenarios, i do not think that there is much CTA can do to harm those who practice Dorje Shugden. This is what I was thinking about as i notice the most problems are with those that are still in Dharamsala.

vajratruth

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Re: Escaping the BAN imposed
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2012, 10:59:35 AM »
To me the prohibition on the practice of Dorje Shugden by the Dalai Lama’s Office and CTA is neither a ban in its strict sense, or a campaign by the CTA that is advisory in nature.

The CTA and Dalai Lama’s Office cannot officially impose a ban on the practice because that would itself constitute a breach of the Tibetan Constitution (not the mention the Indian Constitution and the United Nation’s Universal Declaration Of Human Rights) that guarantees freedom of religion. What happened to the Dorje Shugden “ban” did not follow a democratic process common in any free country because it would not have survived the fairness and logic tests.

On the contrary the way the “ban” was instituted can be likened to a kingpin imposing his will in a gangster state with the only “authority” being the threat of violence and harm coming upon those who choose not to abide by it.  In imposing the prohibition, it seemed the Dalai Lama relied on neither the process of the law nor the executive arm of the law but instead took advantage of, and out rightly abused the traditional perception of a Dalai Lama as a god-king. To go against His Holiness's will tantamount to either going against the will of heaven (which is sinful and yields terrible consequences) or treason against a monarch, which is punishable by death. The way the “ban” was presented was such that continuing in the practice is by implication, wanting His Holiness to be dead. It is nothing more than cheap blackmailing that only works because the victims have deep love, affection and respect for the perpetrator. That is a fact although i concede that we know nothing of the Dalai Lama's real motive.

And this is not the only time the Dalai Lama has enforced his will upon the people without due regard to their opinion, wishes and welfare. Another example of such hegemonic behavior was when he unilaterally gave away the independence of Tibet. If there was any hope of an independent Tibet, it was given up for dead at that point, by one person.

Neither was the “ban” a friendly advice from an elderly and well-meaning person looking out for those in his care. If it were, then the advice should not accompany silent but active threats of social marginalization, exclusion from consideration for civic posts, expulsion from monastic universities, denial of basic human rights and even worse, threats of bodily harm. Here is an excerpt of a speech made by the Tibetan exiled government’s own Prime Minister in 20101:

“Inside and outside of Tibet Shugden followers are opponents of his Holiness Dalai Lama. They are trying to divide Tibetan community and make it against Dalai Lama, so, for example, here, in exile in India, we almost completely won and demolished Shugden followers who used to be very strong in Delhi, but not any more because we, Tibetan people, acted bravely and without hesitation against Shugden followers. But some of the roots are still left, and the Shugden followers on the way stop by in Delhi and carry out some activities. Now, without fear and hesitation, we, Tibetans, must fight and destroy Shugden followers. I am urging you to act against hesitation and fear, but of course, I will not blame you if you fear – they will fight back fearlessly and may beat some of us or kill, but if you fear and do nothing that means Shugden followers are winning. Even though you may die or face beating you must fight – it I very important”.[/b]
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With language like that, does it sound like a friendly advice?

As for Tibetans applying for Indian citizenship, here is a an excerpt from a report by the Tibet Justice Centre (“Tibet’s Stateless Nationals II”) dated 2011 in which the TJC writes:

“Pursuant to longstanding executive policy of India’s national government, for a Tibetan to acquire citizenship by birth, he or she must obtain and submit a “no objection” certificate from the CTA, as the custodian and representative of Tibetans in exile”

How likely is it for the CTA to grant a “no objection” certificate to Shugden practitioners? Regardless, how likely is it for the CTA to encourage a process that can only lead to the dwindling of its already small exiled population especially when it is still calling for the numbers to rally behind its demand for independence or autonomy or whatever the Tibetan Cause is now. So long as a Tibetan in exile remains a refugee, he or she comes under the jurisdiction of the CTA. There was a legal case where a Tibetan refugee have sued for and won her right to apply for citizenship but the Indian Courts have yet to establish that case as a precedent (and in any case the Court limited the right to Tibetans born in India ‘after the 26th January 1950 but before the 1st day of July 1987’) And therefore every Tibetan wishing to challenge for their rights in courts must be able to afford the lengthy and expensive legal fees.

The Tibetan Shugden practitioners cannot escape the "ban" and therefore it is very much up to us, whom the ban cannot touch to create awareness of how such a religious persecution is taking place today and to do the necessary to bring the ban down.

dsiluvu

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Re: Escaping the BAN imposed
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2012, 07:51:32 AM »
I have been thinking, the ban only affects Tibetans that are currently in Dharamsala. The ban cannot touch or affect anyone effectively that is not within the CTA's reach, for example, such as outside of Dharamsala. If that is the case why do the Tibetans not go to another country and start a new life there? there are many pro DS Lamas who are dotted all around Europe and the US who would be happy to help them. that way, they will not be subjected to all the horrible things that they are now.

Agree Ensapa... but i think this is more a question of funds. Some of our Tibetan DS practitioners have probably lost a lot during the Chinese invasion. They escaped to Dharamsala thinking they can start a new life there only to be tormented and hunted by their own brothers and sisters... how traumatic can this be? You lost your original home and now you lose your new home too! I am sure those who can escape the ban and migrate to another country has done so. It is those who remain, some are monks are the ones deeply affected and closely watched. If they can watch High Lamas like Gangchen Rinpoche, GKG and I am sure they are watching the current Trijang Rinpoche, I am sure they are watching all the other Shugdenpas... talk about nothing else better to do eh! You wonder could they try to focus on improving the welfare, education system of their people instead and prepare them to be able to contribute back to the country that has been so kind to them - India... Oh I forgot, except Shugden practitioners get these welfare benefits!

So instead of creating value, they are creating more headaches and problems for the Indian Govt. Come to think of it... Tibetans are quite demanding and show very little gratitude hu? 

Ensapa

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Re: Escaping the BAN imposed
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2012, 09:10:58 AM »

Agree Ensapa... but i think this is more a question of funds. Some of our Tibetan DS practitioners have probably lost a lot during the Chinese invasion. They escaped to Dharamsala thinking they can start a new life there only to be tormented and hunted by their own brothers and sisters... how traumatic can this be? You lost your original home and now you lose your new home too! I am sure those who can escape the ban and migrate to another country has done so. It is those who remain, some are monks are the ones deeply affected and closely watched. If they can watch High Lamas like Gangchen Rinpoche, GKG and I am sure they are watching the current Trijang Rinpoche, I am sure they are watching all the other Shugdenpas... talk about nothing else better to do eh! You wonder could they try to focus on improving the welfare, education system of their people instead and prepare them to be able to contribute back to the country that has been so kind to them - India... Oh I forgot, except Shugden practitioners get these welfare benefits!

So instead of creating value, they are creating more headaches and problems for the Indian Govt. Come to think of it... Tibetans are quite demanding and show very little gratitude hu?

I am sure that somehow or rather, if they want to work towards it, they can escape Dharamsala, or perhaps some of pro DS's Lama's students or aides would think of a way to take them away. But in the meantime they could always seek refuge in Shar Ganden or Serpom until the whole ban ends. This is more proof that the ban must go down as all it causes is more harm and suffering that is unnecessary to both the laity and the ordained. Even if there is a ban in place, what they are doing to the Dorje Shugden followers is something that is not necessary and that is against human rights.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Escaping the BAN imposed
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2015, 12:18:23 PM »
Taking into consideration how much strategies and thoughts put into this Ban/Campaign by CTA as expounded in this article is almost admirable if not for so much suffering inflicted. 

Owing to the lack of proper legal ability for the CTA to impose a legal ban (due to CTA being on Indian soil) it is the actions of discrimination and segregation that make the Ban a legal scary prohibition for those who reverend the Dalai Lama as their Head of state or Leader.  These poor Tibetan in exile lives in refugee communes which are largely taken care of by CTA which is supposed to provide for them from international governmental sponsorships.  Being deprived of their means of protection and assistance, to these people it is a Ban.

The Sangha is part of the monastic order under the Dalai Lama, if they cannot practise with freedom, then who can lead the lay practitioners.

All in all with all these restrictions and discriminations, it is definitely a Ban in a very gangster like manner.