Author Topic: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden  (Read 8655 times)

WisdomBeing

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Found this gem! http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=7106

The amazing thing is that the article on dorjeshugden.com comes complete with transcripts!! I've copy and pasted from the article for convenience. This is so excellent!! Thank you Dorjeshugden.com!

You can view the video on YouTube:
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Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden Part 1

Dear readers,

This initiation of Dorje Shugden was conferred in Los Angeles in the 1980s onto Geshe Tsultim Gyeltsen’s own students in Thubten Dhargye Ling. Prior to Kyabje Zong Rinpoche giving the advice, Geshe-la formally requested Kyabje Zong Rinpoche to give an initiation of Dorje Shugden. Geshe Tsultim Gyeltsen was a very strong and devoted practitioner of Dorje Shugden and you can hear Geshe Tsultim Gyeltsen’s voice at the beginning of the video.

After the formal request was made, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche himself, who is the overlord of all tantric mandalas, gave the profound initiation of Dorje Shugden to Geshe-la and all his disciples. And thereafter, Geshe-la and all his students practiced Dorje Shugden very strongly and very devotedly until the ban.

We have no reports of what happened after that.

Transcript :

— (Geshe Tsultrim Gyaltsen speaks in Los Angeles) —

My root guru His Holiness Kyabje Zong Tulku Dorje Chang Lobsang Tsundu Thubten Gyaltsen gives most emanation deity Gyalchen Dorje Shugden’s life entrustment initiation along with very pure and excellent biographies and stories, here is the voice record while giving the empowerment.

I, Geshe Tsultrim Gyaltsen student formally requested.

— (His Holiness Kyabje Zong Rinpoche begins to speak through a translator) —

After receiving this Dorje Shugden initiation, you have to do puja once a month. Also, it is necessary to follow the commitment, and you have to make a commitment with the lineage and with the order.

So that means, for example you [might] receive teachings from different traditions but mainly, your practice, your focus, your energy [should be put] into this lineage, the Gelugpa lineage.

If you have to or if you wish to do some kind of Dharmic activities with other sects of Buddhism, that is okay to do some kind of activities but your main practice or the principle practice, you have to make the commitment with this lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa. That’s why I mentioned before, you have to know and told that you should not take initiation if you are not sure. So once you take this initiation, then you have to make a commitment with the Gelug lineage and this is necessary not to mix up everything.

There are sometimes rumours that people say, “Oh, Shugden initiation is not…”, people say that it is not necessary to take Shugden initiation or, some people say Shugden is even not good protector.

That is not true. People who have this Shugden initiation and people who practice Dorje Shugden, those people have very great, successful meditation and practice. Even worldly measures, like worldly activities and business and job; everything becomes very successful.

Because it says Dorje Shugden is a Gelugpa protector, so some people they think when you say ‘Gelugpa protector’, they think we are narrow-minded and they think people who practice Shugden, they think they are narrow-minded and they think people who practice Shugden, they are sectarian. Actually, not sectarian…maybe because they are sectarian so they think that the people who practice Shugden are sectarian. People make up all kinds of stories and rumours, you should know that beforehand.

Some people, after taking the Shugden initiation and teachings, when they hear these rumours, they think…ignorant people, narrow-minded people make those rumours, and some people think that it is true and so maybe they give up the practice or they even don’t want to have this protector which is very bad, and that is not good for the person.

Actually it is up to you, whatever you want to do is up to you; your own life, everything is your own choice and your freedom and your own enlightenment, and what you want to do or not is up to you but I’m talking about what is good for you. You have to be very careful about what you do and you should not become gullible; you should not just follow someone saying “this is no good” and listen to all these stories from people. You should not change your mind, and you should always be aware and you have to make sure.

In Tibet, it doesn’t matter what people say and actually in Tibet, there’s many people who follow this and do this practice and actually, always there’s more and more people who do this kind of meditation.

So you have to know this, you have to be very sure or otherwise, later on, if people say to you “Oh, this practice is no good” and they make all kinds of stories and rumours…then if you give up, then it’s not good for you and then it will be a big mistake for you. Therefore you have to make sure that you keep this commitment and follow this commitment.

Because this is your own choice, and no one says you should do or you must do this and your own…like you choose to do this so you have to think about this very carefully. No one says you must do this without your own choice, and it’s like if you don’t want to and no one can say “you should do this or shouldn’t do this.”

Part 2: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=7109

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

WisdomBeing

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2011, 12:52:18 AM »
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=7109 - part 2

Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden Part 2

View video on YouTube:
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Dear readers,

This initiation of Dorje Shugden was conferred in Los Angeles in the 1980s onto Geshe Tsultim Gyeltsen’s own students in Thubten Dhargye Ling. Prior to Kyabje Zong Rinpoche giving the advice, Geshe-la formally requested Kyabje Zong Rinpoche to give an initiation of Dorje Shugden. Geshe Tsultim Gyeltsen was a very strong and devoted practitioner of Dorje Shugden and you can hear Geshe Tsultim Gyeltsen’s voice at the beginning of the video.

After the formal request was made, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche himself, who is the overlord of all tantric mandalas, gave the profound initiation of Dorje Shugden to Geshe-la and all his disciples. And thereafter, Geshe-la and all his students practiced Dorje Shugden very strongly and very devotedly until the ban.

We have no reports of what happened after that.
Transcript :

— (His Holiness Kyabje Zong Rinpoche begins to speak through a translator) —

(repeated from Part 1) Because it says Dorje Shugden is a Gelugpa protector, so some people they think when you say ‘Gelugpa protector’, they think we are narrow-minded and they think people who practice Shugden, they think they are narrow-minded and they think people who practice Shugden, they are sectarian. Actually, not sectarian…maybe because they are sectarian so they think that the people who practice Shugden are sectarian. People make up all kinds of stories and rumours, you should know that beforehand.

This is a very special protector and very precious, so therefore you have to do puja monthly.

You have to do the puja once a month, the prayer, long sadhana or long prayer, once a month but if, for example, if next month, if you know you’re going to be very very busy, if you know that you can’t do this, it’s impossible – then you can do the puja for next month, this month. The month before, you can do two [pujas] within two days.

If you don’t know how to read the sadhana, the prayers; if you cannot do the sadhana or you’re unable to do [the sadhana], then you also can ask the Lama, or monks or teachers to do this for you.

It is very important to know that you really want to take this initiation, and it is not just to come here and take this initiation because other people are taking this initiation. If you feel “I should do this and if I don’t do, then maybe I’m going to miss something”, that is the wrong idea. If you really want to make the commitment, then you should take. Otherwise you shouldn’t.

As I mentioned before, if you don’t know how to say the prayer and if you’re unable to do the puja once a month, then you can ask a Lama or your friend who knows this prayer and this monthly puja – you can invite them to your place, and ask them to do the puja.

Or if you can’t do [the puja] at your home, then even if it’s long-distance, like at some kind of monastery or where the Lama or the friend is – you can ask them, or him or her, to do this puja.

The reason I’m saying this again and again is because if you don’t follow just any kind of people, and if you’re not gullible, then it’s okay.

But it is possible sometimes that even a Lama or monk or some kind of teacher says “this is not right, and it’s wrong, and you shouldn’t do this kind of practice” – then it’s possible that you can change your mind. You think, “Because a Lama or some kind of teacher is saying this to me, maybe it’s true” – so people are very easily influenced and they can change their minds.

And one of the reasons [I am saying this again and again is] because many Westerners don’t know the Dharma deeply, and all the significance and symbolism and the meanings. They also don’t know who is the right teacher and who is not the right teacher; they just go wherever there is a teacher or some sort of Lama, and they go and listen to all these teachings and that’s why. Westerners are generally very honest people, very direct, and very…they’re good people, they have a good heart.

Like in India or in Tibet, sometimes they…some people, they don’t practice Shugden but they say they are practicing Shugden. And some people, they do practice and they say something else. What people say and what they do is different, and so there’s kind of a corruption.

In India, some people mislead other people, other Tibetans. When some Tibetans ask them to do the Shugden puja, they will say, “Yes, I will do puja for you.” But after they go, they will do something else, and not the Shugden puja – they do another different puja. The people who asked them to do puja, they don’t know – if they can’t read, they can’t read and write – that these people say they are doing Shugden puja, but they don’t do it. They do something else and they just do what they want to do, and it’s very bad.

The reason why they do that is because in India and Tibet, householders will invite laypeople or monks to do this puja. It is a long puja and long day, so the household makes offerings like dana. These people are lying, saying they’re doing the Shugden puja but they don’t do. And they actually don’t like to do Shugden puja but in order to get some kind of benefit or money or some other reason, they say they do the pujas and it’s very very bad and very samsaric motivation.

Eventually those people, the householders who request for the Shugden puja will know or realise; they know that these people are not doing the right puja because they feel that it is not helping. It is not working because they are not doing the real puja. Eventually, they can feel intuitively because it is not helping, it doesn’t feel right. They will say they don’t want those people to do the puja, and will ask someone and make sure that the people who do the Shugden puja, are also practicing Shugden.

Here, we don’t have that kind of problems and there is no doubt. I’m just talking about general stories so that you have some type of understanding and everything.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2011, 08:35:28 AM »
HH Kyabje Zong Rinpoche already knew of the rumors, the accusations, the troubles coming for Shugdenpas even back then. This teaching and advice is so apt for our time and the situation against Shugden practitioners...

Also, if practicing Shugden is so bad, how is it that the illustrious master Zong Rinpoche's incarnation is now back in Gaden Shartse!

WisdomBeing

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2011, 07:10:02 PM »
i think it is interesting that in the 80's, there seems to be criticism of Shugden already, although the main anti-Shugden campaign/ban didn't kick off til 1996?

Does anyone know when exactly did the Dalai Lama stop practising? And what triggered it?
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2011, 12:00:01 PM »
I recently read somewhere that the ban began in 1978. I will have to check my sources to confirm this. I remembered the year because it was the year following Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's arrival in the UK.

Robert Thomas

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DharmaDefender

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2011, 01:11:57 PM »
i think it is interesting that in the 80's, there seems to be criticism of Shugden already, although the main anti-Shugden campaign/ban didn't kick off til 1996?

Does anyone know when exactly did the Dalai Lama stop practising? And what triggered it?

Not just that but Zong Rinpoche is already making 'allowances' for lazy practitioners of this day and age. After all, people now are very capable of learning the sadhana for themselves, especially if they have received the practice from a lama who is also equally capable of teaching it to them.

Can you imagine in old Tibet, being told that you can get someone else to do your practice for you? Enlightenment by proxy!

triesa

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2011, 05:19:01 PM »



— (His Holiness Kyabje Zong Rinpoche begins to speak through a translator) —



This is a very special protector and very precious, so therefore you have to do puja monthly.

You have to do the puja once a month, the prayer, long sadhana or long prayer, once a month but if, for example, if next month, if you know you’re going to be very very busy, if you know that you can’t do this, it’s impossible – then you can do the puja for next month, this month. The month before, you can do two [pujas] within two days.

Or if you can’t do [the puja] at your home, then even if it’s long-distance, like at some kind of monastery or where the Lama or the friend is – you can ask them, or him or her, to do this puja.



Wow, Dorje Shugden's practice is really made for people of today's world where distractions are heavy and time is always a constraint. If any ptractitioner cannot even commit to the puja once a month, in my humble opinion, they should be ashamed and should not even be granted such precious practice.

Like what Dharma Defender said, "Enlightenment by proxy" , you can even ask someone to do the puja for you as said by Zong Rinpoche.  How easy that is!........ It makes me feel sad about the degenerated level of comittment of today's practitioners, as predicted by Zong Rinpoche.

How compassionate are Dorje Shugden and the enlightened masters who make it very EASY for many of us to receive this initiation becasue the requirements is literally very EASY to achieve. There should not be any lame EXCUSES of not being able to commit once a month to do the puja, nomatter how long the puja is.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2011, 05:48:15 PM »
Here is a clear timeline:

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/chronicle/before-1996/


Thanks Robert - that's very helpful.

The timeline is interesting because according to another thread, http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1055.0, the Dalai Lama's representatives went to mediate between FPMT and NKT (or the group which became NKT), so was the Dalai Lama against the practice of Dorje Shugden at the Manjushri Institute then? I know it was a long time ago but i'm curious how the Dalai Lama's representatives acted (or didn't) regarding Dorje Shugden at that time.
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Robert Thomas

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2011, 11:05:10 PM »
Hi Wisdom being

It was in fact not until 1996 that Geshe Kelsang and other lama's really understood that the Dalai Lama was not simply being disingenuous. This extract from a discussion Geshe Kelsang had on a web forum gives a little more detail. I have included the question as well as the answer.

Quote
Question:  At Manjushri Centre while Lama Thubten Yeshe was there, I’m sure that an image of HHDL occupied a preeminent place in the shrine room  from all reports now, images of HHDL are no longer displayed openly in your Centres  presumably you felt it was within your rights as senior spiritual leader to see to it that any image of HHDL was removed from the shrine room   

Answer, Geshe Kelsang: You are right. Lama Yeshe was the general spiritual director of Manjushri Centre, while I had the responsibility of organizing the daily programmes. We were both very happy to have the picture of HH the Dalai Lama on the shrine because we hoped that the people of Manjushri and HH Dalai Lama would develop a good spiritual connection and relationship. Many times we invited the Dalai Lama to come to Manjushri Centre, although we both knew, even then, that he had rejected the practice of Dorje Shugden. We assumed it was not his real intention because we found it difficult to believe that he really wanted to destroy the practice of Dorje Shugden.

So for a long time we continued to practise Dorje Shugden and kept faith in the Dalai Lama. Then later the situation deteriorated because he intensified his ban on Dorje Shugden worship. I heard that he said in public that those who practise Dorje Shugden cannot be my friend. Then my mind gradually changed, especially as we received criticism from people who were saying that Manjushri Centre had broken its guru devotion to the Dalai Lama because of our continued practice of Dorje Shugden. As his picture was on our shrine, people believed that he was our root guru, on the other hand because we practised Dorje Shugden people thought we were against the Dalai Lama. Due to this contradiction we recieved a lot of criticism. In order to resolve this contradiction and to show that the Dalai Lama is not our root Guru we removed his pictures. This is how we came to remove the pictures of HH Dalai Lama.

from http://groups.google.com/group/talk.religion.buddhism/msg/c594eecc8ff4934b?
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.religion.buddhism/browse_frm/month/1997-12?start=1000&sa=N

Helena

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2011, 04:31:34 PM »
Thank you so much, WB for posting this here.

This is indeed a gem.

So many people get very carried away with the aspects of the ban and become very emotional - though understandably and some actually get very confused to the point that they abandoned this precious practice entirely.

Can you imagine the suffering that goes on both sides - those who had to abandon due to their confusion and ignorance and those who had to endure it all because they chose to keep their practice?

Out of the two - I pity those who gave up because they will lose something far more precious than their reputation or temporal 'peace and harmony'. As long as they don't have Dorje Shugden by their side to help them, how they be at a better place? So, we should have more compassion for them always. No matter what, we do have our practice and our Protector with us all the way.

This is something I did not see earlier because I was more intent on being angry at being suppressed but in the end, Shugdenpas are in a far better place. We do have the blessings and protection of our Supreme Protector.

What do the rest have? What will they have when His Holiness is gone and TGIE falls to pieces?



 

Helena

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 08:49:16 PM »

Whatever this amazing Tulku (Zong Rinpoche) says or does has zero faults. His knowledge, seniority, practice is beyond any scrutiny.

If he advices Dorje Shugden is beneficial, then Dorje Shugden is beneficial. No other lama can say otherwise and make Zong Rinpoche wrong.

These days many ppl try to say Zong Rinpoche is wrong, but that is like shooting yourself in the foot. Why would you disparage your own lineage lama.

Helena

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2011, 05:16:52 AM »
Totally agree with you, Thai Monk!

There is an entire lineage of HIGHLY ATTAINED MASTERS who say that Dorje Shugden is beneficial and precious.

Zong Rinpoche and all of these high Lamas cannot be wrong. If they are wrong, we are all wrong and there is nothing left.

Many current Gurus are or were disciples of Shugden High Lamas.
Helena

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2011, 07:20:54 PM »
HH Zong Rinpoche conferred sogtae to many who are lineage holders today, ready to pass on this holy practice to suitable vessels.

How compassionate Zong Rinpoche is...to pass this blessings on especially knowing beings at this time are plagued by such heavy karma.

Also, rereading how dharma's brought to the west is no easy feat. We have dharma and the pure lineage today in the west, all due to the kindness of such compassionate beings like Zong Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Lama Zopa, and many more....and they all practiced Dorje Shugden!

Goes to show how we need Dorje Shugden today for the spread of dharma and advancing in our practice.

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Re: Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2011, 09:27:07 PM »


By logical debate, if these lineage lamas can be wrong, then the Dalai Lama could be manifesting wrong. Since Dalai Lama says they are wrong, he is 'allowing' to say he could be wrong by his disciples. Anyone and everyone could be wrong. If that is the case, it is very damaging for samaya. If all disciples from the time of the Buddha till now start thinking their gurus are wrong or could be wrong it drastically damages the balace of their practice. Dalai Lama has an extra advantage as he is the defacto ruler/king of Tibet, on a political basis, his commands must be obeyed. So although as a spiritual teacher, he could be 'wrong', you still cannot 'defy' his commands as your leader within the Tibetans or you are a traitor. Or better yet, a spy.

Being branded a Chinese spy because you don't condone Tibetan govt policies is very common these days. The majority of peasant and unexposed Tibetans living in India and abroad very much relate to the spy/traitor accusations. They won't or can't think any deeper. If the Tibetan Govt or Dalai Lama says/hints you are a spy/traitor, THEN YOU ARE. Simple as that. Yes, there is no democracy within the Tibetan Govt in exile whatsoever. But how long can this last? Tibetan Govt's only leader is already 75. It is just a matter of time where a group of exiles will have to mature, grow up and fend for themselves without their leader. Let see what India does to the refugees when their leader is not around anymore. The recent Karmapa scandal might be an indication that the Indian Govt does not 'respect' anyone else or will not entertain anyone else besides the Dalai Lama. That is not good news for the Tibetans who are jumping up and down fanatically pointing fingers at who is a spy and who is not.

In actuality, the Tibetans should just keep quiet, quit making more schisms/divisions among their own communities, because without the Dalai Lama they will be on their own. Sadly, probably not make it very well either from the looks of things now. Tibetans are spoon fed by Dalai Lama/Tibetan govt IF THEY REJECT SHUGDEN AND AGREE WITH EVERY OTHER POLITICAL VIEWS RIGHT OR WRONG OF THEIR GOVT.

In guru yogas of Tara, Chenresig, Tsongkapa, Yamantaka, etc you have dissolve your guru daily into you. You meditate your mind and your lama's mind melds into one and therefore many supreme attainments arise. Many supreme attainments arise because your guru is unsurpassed and attained. Well if he's attained, he wouldn't make any mistakes? If you start thinking he can make mistakes, then you are dissolving a unattained ordinary person into your mindstream daily. What attainments can that bring?

Very dangerous and difficult route to traverse.

TK