Author Topic: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes  (Read 23857 times)

thaimonk

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Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« on: January 30, 2011, 04:27:00 AM »


Interesting blogsite that counters the WSS. It is well written site with clear information. But for new comers, it would not be very easy to understand. Example, 'Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes' are only understandable if you know Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang had a huge fall out in Manjushri centre decades ago. Take a look at this blog site. It helps you to understand the other side of the coin regarding the Shugden issue.

http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/good-night-lama-the-blackmail-tape/



« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 04:28:13 AM by Mana »

Lineageholder

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2011, 08:13:44 AM »
The person who runs this blog has an axe to grind against the NKT.  I don't know why you are spreading this misinformation, there are enough lies and confusion concerning NKT and Dorje Shugden as it is - take with a large pinch of salt.

This is the truth regarding the 'goodnight lama' spin:

http://www.newkadampatruth.org/smear-geshe-kelsang-gyatso-stole-manjushri-institute-from-the-fpmt#kadampa

Robert Thomas

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2011, 09:10:02 AM »
I thought the policy was not to criticise other's Gurus? So how can it be ok to post such a deliberately one sided posts? From the title itself which is highly offensive through to the casual claim that they had a "huge falling out". I find the uncritical and unreasonable nature of this post completely offensive and nothing to do with Dorje  Shugden. It's simply promoting an ignorant, salacious and divisive agenda. How sad!

WisdomBeing

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2011, 09:51:09 AM »
I have read both blog posts by Thai Monk and Lineageholder...

From Lineageholder and Robert's response - is the transcript of the tape in the 'goodnight lama' a false one? Forget about whether the title implies a judgment or not - I'd just like to know if the content was true or false.

Points of interest to me from these articles were that 1) in 1984, Dorje Shugden was still acceptable since the Dalai Lama's representatives came to mediate. 2) just on a spiritual point of view - why did the group say that Lama Yeshe was aware of the drug trafficking or illegal stuff but they still wanted Lama Yeshe to be their spiritual guide? Please note that this is not a point of criticism at all but just seeking to understand.

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Lineageholder

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2011, 10:28:00 AM »
I have read both blog posts by Thai Monk and Lineageholder...

From Lineageholder and Robert's response - is the transcript of the tape in the 'goodnight lama' a false one? Forget about whether the title implies a judgment or not - I'd just like to know if the content was true or false.

Points of interest to me from these articles were that 1) in 1984, Dorje Shugden was still acceptable since the Dalai Lama's representatives came to mediate. 2) just on a spiritual point of view - why did the group say that Lama Yeshe was aware of the drug trafficking or illegal stuff but they still wanted Lama Yeshe to be their spiritual guide? Please note that this is not a point of criticism at all but just seeking to understand.



Hi Kate,

I have no idea whether the content of the post is true or not.  The problem with taking something out of context (a single communication, with no background information) is that you can read what you want into it, but what you impute may not be true - for example, blackmail.  You've got to put it into context, which is the 'priory group' were fighting for the survival of Manjushri Institute which was on the cards to be liquidated by the FPMT.  The link I posted contains the whole story written and approved as accurate by people who were actually involved in this sad affair. 

I can't answer the questions you've posed, sorry, because it was way before my time.

As an aside, I'd be very interested to know the connection between thaimonk and Mana, as thaimonk's often appear to have been edited by Mana.  If they are one and the same person, I would question thaimonk/Mana's motives for creating this thread.  Mana has made it very clear that he/she doesn't like people like myself posting about the Dalai Lama.  Maybe I'm reading something into this, but could this thread be seen as being 'tit for tat' or maybe it's my impure mind?  ;)  I'd be very interested in the answer.

thaimonk

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2011, 11:21:09 AM »


I did not post this to criticize any lama but to understand more. I came across this well written blog site (which I do not agree with many subjects) but can anyone shed more light on. That is it. Hundreds will come across this blogsite and it is good if we can understand.

If some of you do not wish to discuss this blogsite, then don't come to this thread please.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 11:23:10 AM by Mana »

thaimonk

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2011, 11:56:17 AM »
The person who runs this blog has an axe to grind against the NKT.  I don't know why you are spreading this misinformation, there are enough lies and confusion concerning NKT and Dorje Shugden as it is - take with a large pinch of salt.

This is the truth regarding the 'goodnight lama' spin:

http://www.newkadampatruth.org/smear-geshe-kelsang-gyatso-stole-manjushri-institute-from-the-fpmt#kadampa


Some of you have an axe to grind with Dalai Lama. This person has an ax to grind with NKT. So? Don't get so jumpy when Geshe Kelsang and NKT are mentioned. They just like the Dalai Lama are not beyond fault, beyond mistakes and beyond criticism.

I do not agree with the blogsite, but we must understand all facets of this issue to have understanding, peace to our practice and perhaps to write/say more. This is not meant to be insultive to Geshe Kelsang or Lama Yeshe. I did not write or comment on this blogsite, but I came across it. If you do not like their blogsite take it up with them not me. I am allowed to learn more.

Geshe Kelsang and Lama Yeshe did have a fallout, and if you do not know that, then this article is not helpful. Stating they had a fallout is not saying good or bad, simply they did.

So If everyone completely stops writing about the Dalai Lama, then no one writes about any lama. Otherwise finding more information is not being insultive.

I am happy you posted another link to another version of the Goodnight Lama and I will certainly read up on it. That was my intent.



I am sure there were good reasons behind the fallout. After all I am sure Geshe Kelsang and Lama Yeshe had a bigger picture in mind to manifest what they did manifest in regards to this fallout. I respect both of them. But the fact is, the information is on the net and therefore I would like to understand.


Zach

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2011, 04:32:00 PM »
As I understand it there where very naughty illegal actions being committed by certain members of the trustee group in charge of Manjushri at the time. I dont know the implications of what happend and I dont think seeing bits and parts of correspondents helps complete a picture either. If events where truely that bad I would assume that appropriate court action would have been taken and the issue would have fallen on the side of the FPMT long ago however seeing as the reverse is true it can only be taken to the affirmative that whatever illegal actions where being committed by the trustees lead to a loss of Manjushri institute from the FPMT organisation.

vajralight

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2011, 04:55:01 PM »
http://www.newkadampatruth.org/smear-geshe-kelsang-gyatso-stole-manjushri-institute-from-the-fpmt#kadampa

the article:


The History of Manjushri Institute

The following information is provided by Charles ‘Chip’ Rodarmor (Director of Manjushri Institute 1981-1983, appointed by Lama Yeshe), Roy Tyson (Secretary of Manjushri Institute 1976-1983, Director of Manjushri Institute 1983-1992), and Jim Belither (Education Programme Co-ordinator of Manjushri Institute 1980-1987).

The purpose of giving this information is to prevent misunderstanding and to stop false information.

In late 1974 Peter Kedge and Harvey Horrocks, students of Lama Thubten Yeshe and Lama Thubten Zopa Rinpoche who were based at Kopan Monastery in Nepal, returned from Nepal with the intention of developing a Dharma centre in the UK to be called ‘Manjushri Institute’. They contacted a number of people around the country, including those who had been to Kopan, and in 1975 a small group of people interested in Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism, began to develop in the London area. This group included Dennis Heslop, Roy Tyson, James Belither, Peter Baker, Monique Berghok, Lawrence Williamson and Anton McKeown.

Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa were invited to give a short course at Royal Holloway College outside London in September 1975, and the following year Geshe Rabten was invited to give teachings at Pangbourne College in Berkshire.

In 1976 Harvey Horrocks and others found the building Conishead Priory, near Ulverston in Cumbria and, after receiving local government permission for change of use, contracted to buy the building for £70,000 in total to be paid in three instalments over four years.

Some members of the group moved from the London area to Conishead Priory in August 1976. The building was large but in very poor condition, with leaking roofs and dry rot, no heating, and a very limited gas and electricity supply.

In July 1976 Manjushri Institute was legally established as a charitable trust with four Trustees – Lama Yeshe, Peter Kedge, Harvey Horrocks and Roy Tyson – and Lama Yeshe as Spiritual Director. Legally these four trustees had complete ownership of and control over Manjushri Institute. However, in reality everything came to be controlled practically by the managers of the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT), which Lama Yeshe established at Kopan Monastery (but which was not formally incorporated until much later). This was because within the four Trustees, Lama Yeshe had the most authority and Peter Kedge, having returned to Kopan in late-1975, was helping him. However, the burden of paying for the building, as well as for renovating and repairing the building, was shouldered by those living at Manjushri Institute.

In late-1976 Lama Yeshe requested Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to ask Geshe Kelsang Gyatso to go to Manjushri Institute to teach. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche suggested that Geshe Kelsang should teach Lamrim, Chandrakirti’s Guide to the Middle Way and Shantideva’s Guide to the Bodhisattva’s Way of Life and then check whether it was suitable to remain. Geshe Kelsang arrived at Manjushri Institute in late-August 1977, and became the first Resident Teacher at Manjushri Institute.

In 1978 Geshe Kelsang established Madhyamaka Centre in York, England. Because he did this without Lama Yeshe’s ‘permission’, Lama Yeshe wrote to Geshe Kelsang asking him to resign as Resident Teacher of Manjushri Institute. Geshe Kelsang received this letter through Harvey Horrocks, then Director of Manjushri Institute.

Not wishing to cause problems, Geshe Kelsang accepted this. His plan privately was to go to India temporarily and then return to Madhyamaka Centre. On hearing that Geshe Kelsang was leaving Manjushri Institute, Geshe Rabten – a highly respected Buddhist teacher at Tharpa Choeling Buddhist Centre in Switzerland – telephoned him and asked him to go first to Tharpa Choeling for three months and teach Dharmakirti’s Commentary to Valid Cognition, and Geshe Kelsang accepted this invitation.

Shortly before he was to leave for India, Harvey Horrocks, Director of Manjushri Institute, organized a community meeting one evening and explained that Geshe Kelsang had been asked to step down because of opening Madhyamaka Centre and would be returning shortly to India. The community was shocked, and told Harvey to tell Lama Yeshe that they felt there was nothing wrong in Geshe Kelsang establishing Madhyamaka Centre, that they rejoiced in the opening of another Dharma centre, and that they would like Geshe Kelsang to remain continually.

The following day, the community itself organized a meeting and everyone signed a card petitioning Geshe Kelsang to remain, and said that they would take responsibility for preventing any problems between Manjushri Institute and FPMT. Representatives of the community, including Jonathan Landaw, visited Geshe Kelsang and gave him the letter from the community, and requested him to stay.

Before the community meetings, Geshe Kelsang had decided to leave quietly by going to India on holiday and then not returning to Manjushri Institute. But after receiving so many requests to stay, he reconsidered and decided to stay at least temporarily. He felt there was no reason to resign as he had not done anything wrong, and the community was sincere in wanting him to stay. Although this decision was against Lama Yeshe’s wishes, it was clear that the Manjushri Institute community was purely motivated in wanting Geshe Kelsang to stay.

Shortly after these events, FPMT (at first mainly Peter Kedge, the principal officer of FPMT) made plans to sell Conishead Priory to raise funds for FPMT’s business projects in Hong Kong. Later it became clear that Lama Yeshe was in agreement with these plans.

In January 1981 Harvey Horrocks left Manjushri Institute initially to do a retreat in Nepal, and Lama Yeshe appointed Chip Rodarmor as acting Director. At first Chip made efforts to sell the building, but Geshe Kelsang gradually encouraged him not to. In this way, the selling of the building was delayed despite Lama Yeshe and Peter Kedge putting continual pressure on Chip. One day Lama Yeshe phoned Chip from Hong Kong and told him to do his job in selling the building, otherwise he had no other function. Chip, however, closely followed Geshe Kelsang – yet, finding his position increasingly difficult, offered Lama Yeshe his resignation in January 1983 and suggested that Roy Tyson become Director. Chip’s resignation was not accepted but, while Chip was reconsidering his position, in May 1983 Peter Kedge arrived unannounced to take over as Director.

Peter Kedge began to take over the Office, changed the bank accounts and planned to remove the Institute’s managers. He told Geshe Kelsang that he and his students may have to move out within six months because he was going to sell the building. The Institute’s managers – then called the ‘Priory Group’ – requested Geshe Kelsang for help and he accepted. Geshe Kelsang and the Priory Group wrote to Peter Kedge refusing to accept him as Director and stating their wish that Manjushri Institute formally separate from FPMT. A meeting was called and the community was asked to vote on two proposals: (1) that Manjushri Institute separate completely from FPMT, and (2) that Roy Tyson remain as Manjushri Institute Director. Of those who signed: forty-four people voted ‘yes’ to both proposals (this number excluded the Priory Group of eight members); eleven abstained; and two voted ‘no’.

After this meeting the Priory Group wrote to Peter Kedge telling him to leave by a certain deadline or the Police would be called to remove him. Peter Kedge then left. Unfortunately this was a disappointment to Lama Yeshe.

After Peter Kedge left, the Priory Group made two requests to Lama Yeshe: (1) to change the constitution of Manjushri Institute so that it belonged to the public and not to four private individuals, and (2) that he remain as Manjushri Institute’s Spiritual Director and Spiritual Guide continually throughout his life and for life after life. Letters received from Lama Yeshe indicated that he was unhappy with Manjushri Institute. He mainly expressed his displeasure and did not agree to change the constitution.

Lama Yeshe cancelled his summer visit to Manjushri Institute, so the community sent two representatives – Chip Rodarmor and Geshe Kelsang’s translator Tenzin Norbu, who was a friend of Lama Yeshe – to see Lama Yeshe in America, together with extensive offerings. They had one brief meeting with Lama Yeshe, and were asked to return two days later. When they returned they were told that Lama Yeshe was too busy to see them, but that Lama had left them a cassette-taped message. They listened to the taped message and later left a taped response. This clarified that the community was never against Lama Yeshe, requesting him to come to Manjushri Institute that summer to give teachings, and asking him not to listen to the negative things that Peter Kedge had been saying about Manjushri Institute. They effectively returned from America empty-handed.

On the one hand the community at Manjushri Institute was unhappy to be upsetting Lama Yeshe, but on the other hand it wanted to save the centre and separate from FPMT. There were continual discussions on how to solve the problem, and finally the Priory Group decided to take steps to separate Manjushri Institute from FPMT. There were three main reasons for doing this:

1) FPMT managers had committed serious illegal actions, which was public knowledge among many people at Dharma centres;
2) FPMT managers wanted to sell Manjushri Institute’s building; and
3) Although, according to its constitution, legally everything at the centre belonged only to four people, in reality all the work of developing the centre was being done by the community, and not these four.

The Priory Group wrote many letters to the FPMT managers, especially to Peter Kedge; but the request to separate from FPMT and create a new constitution were continually rejected. The Priory Group then began to prepare legal proceedings against the FPMT managers. When the FPMT managers realized that this legal action was being prepared, they requested the Dalai Lama’s Office to send mediators to help solve the problem.

In early-1984 the Dalai Lama’s Office sent two representatives, and meetings were held first at Manjushri Institute. Their first proposal was that Lama Yeshe should step down immediately and that Geshe Kelsang would step down after three years. This was rejected by Manjushri Institute who didn’t want to abandon Lama Yeshe or Geshe Kelsang. Various proposals were discussed, but no conclusions were reached.

Then at London Manjushri Centre there were two days of meetings (13th - 14th February 1984) with the Dalai Lama’s two representatives, Peter Kedge and Harvey Horrocks as FPMT representatives, Geshe Kelsang, the Priory Group, and two Manjushri community representatives. At the beginning there was no progress, but when the Priory Group explained about the possibility of legal action bringing to light the FPMT’s involvement in illegal activities (including drug-smuggling), the FPMT’s representatives accepted the separation. With the Dalai Lama’s representatives, both sides reached a peaceful agreement to formulate a new constitution such that Manjushri Institute would be owned publicly. A legally binding agreement was made, which was signed by the FPMT’s representatives, Geshe Kelsang, the Priory Group and the community representatives.

Another part of the agreement was to confirm that Lama Yeshe was the Spiritual Director of Manjushri Centre. The community did not want to separate from Lama Yeshe, only to separate from FPMT.

Sadly, Lama Yeshe passed away shortly after this agreement was made. After two years of discussion over whether there should be a new Spiritual Director to replace Lama Yeshe, in October 1985 four new Trustees of Manjushri Institute were appointed, two chosen by FPMT and two by Manjushri Institute. A new constitution was formulated, and finally in May 1992 a new charitable company Manjushri Mahayana Buddhist Centre was incorporated, which was completely independent of FPMT. Manjushri Institute then passed all its assets to the new charity and dissolved.

Lineageholder

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, 04:58:50 PM »
Some of you have an axe to grind with Dalai Lama. This person has an ax to grind with NKT. So? Don't get so jumpy when Geshe Kelsang and NKT are mentioned. They just like the Dalai Lama are not beyond fault, beyond mistakes and beyond criticism.
 
(snip)

So If everyone completely stops writing about the Dalai Lama, then no one writes about any lama. Otherwise finding more information is not being insultive.

Dear thaimonk,

Thanks for your explanation.  From what you have said above, I take it that your reason for posting the link to the website criticising Geshe Kelsang, NKT and the WSS was that you have had enough of people criticising the Dalai Lama and it was simply a retaliatory action. I find that sad.

Lineageholder

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 05:17:16 PM »
Dear thaimonk,

I was just thinking, if you have friends, you don't post other people's distorted criticisms of those friends, otherwise what kind of friendship is that - unless you share their view, of course.

WSS is not your enemy but a group of sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners who, just like you, are genuinely concerned about the future of this lineage and who are doing their best to help.  I think that qualifies them as your friends which makes your post even more difficult to comprehend.

thaimonk

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2011, 01:13:03 AM »
As I understand it there where very naughty illegal actions being committed by certain members of the trustee group in charge of Manjushri at the time. I dont know the implications of what happend and I dont think seeing bits and parts of correspondents helps complete a picture either. If events where truely that bad I would assume that appropriate court action would have been taken and the issue would have fallen on the side of the FPMT long ago however seeing as the reverse is true it can only be taken to the affirmative that whatever illegal actions where being committed by the trustees lead to a loss of Manjushri institute from the FPMT organisation.

Yes Zach, it is very interesting and after so many decades, it is still written about and confuses alot of ppl. It makes me confused. Time and time again, I read on this forum Tulkus, Lamas and teachers are not above mistakes.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 01:31:00 AM by Mana »

thaimonk

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2011, 01:20:42 AM »
Dear thaimonk,

I was just thinking, if you have friends, you don't post other people's distorted criticisms of those friends, otherwise what kind of friendship is that - unless you share their view, of course.

WSS is not your enemy but a group of sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners who, just like you, are genuinely concerned about the future of this lineage and who are doing their best to help.  I think that qualifies them as your friends which makes your post even more difficult to comprehend.

NKT is not above questioning or doubt. If I have doubt I may question. I can post doubts and get it answered by forum members who know something. Those who feel offended that NKT can be questioned, need not read this thread. If I believe in oracles and Tulkus, why would friends criticize this belief if they were my real friends? But I have been criticized time and time again. Would friends do that? We are not friends I have realized long ago. Anything on NKT, everything becomes hypersensitive. Sorry. 
WSS may not be my enemy, but some ppl who support them always attack many of our belief systems.

thaimonk

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2011, 01:44:07 AM »
Dear thaimonk,

Thanks for your explanation.  From what you have said above, I take it that your reason for posting the link to the website criticising Geshe Kelsang, NKT and the WSS was that you have had enough of people criticising the Dalai Lama and it was simply a retaliatory action. I find that sad.

Yes, I find it disturbing that all NKT and related ppl talk about is Dalai Lama. I am not NKT and I do not agree with this. But If I post something on Geshe Kelsang, NKT and WSS, HOW IS THAT RETALIATORY??? Why are these three entities when discussed retaliatory? They are in direct confrontational stance against the Dalai Lama. Their background has to be understood for ppl to agree to this stance.

Other lamas, organization if they have a direct confrontational stance against Dalai Lama will be examined also. Dalai Lama is a powerful figure, so in order for any stance to take hold or have sway, we have to understand their backgrounds. If NKT, etc are going to take such a stance, then they have to be open to exploration because they are in the public eye now for good or bad.

NKT, WSS and GKG are openly against Dalai Lama. So your backgrounds will be explored to give any credence to this stance. So my posting of this blog site (that I did not write) is for examination. Again let me stress, there are many readers here that are not NKT. For their's and my own understanding I have posted this. If I post this and you do not 'allow' because you find it relaliatory that does not make sense as this is not a WSS or NKT forum. Please go and challenge, write and commentate on the writers of  that blog in question. They might be your enemy? I am not. So please do not be offended.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 01:52:34 AM by Mana »

Lineageholder

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Re: Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2011, 08:55:34 AM »

Yes, I find it disturbing that all NKT and related ppl talk about is Dalai Lama. I am not NKT and I do not agree with this. But If I post something on Geshe Kelsang, NKT and WSS, HOW IS THAT RETALIATORY??? Why are these three entities when discussed retaliatory? They are in direct confrontational stance against the Dalai Lama. Their background has to be understood for ppl to agree to this stance.


Only you can know your motivation for starting this thread.  I can see that you are upset that people like myself find fault with the Dalai Lama, but the simple fact is, he is the one who has caused the Dorje Shugden problem and so he is the one who needs to be examined.  This site would not even exist were it not for his actions.  He's the one who is responsible for the ban of Dorje Shugden, the smearing of Dorje Shugden practice as a spirit worshipping cult, ostracism of Dorje Shugden practitioners, the explusion of Geshe Kelsang from his monastery and many other harmful actions; this is undeniably true.

This site is not about the NKT or Geshe Kelsang who have not caused any problems in relation to Dorje Shugden and is surely off topic considering what the purpose of this website is about?  If you have doubts about NKT,  you could read the NKT Truth Site which may answer your questions

http://www.newkadampatruth.org/

As you will see, some of the smears are related to Dorje Shugden, which is relevant to this site.

There is also an associated blog  http://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/
 
While I agree that NKT and Geshe Kelsang are not beyond questioning or doubt because anything can be questioned and doubted,  I don't think you're going to get the answers to your questions about NKT by examining and spreading Tenzin Peljor's misinformation and distorted views (especially his wrong belief that NKT and WSS are the same - they aren't; WSS also includes Tibetan practitioners), so I don't understand what the purpose of this thread is and how it contributes positively to anything.