Author Topic: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds  (Read 48975 times)

LosangKhyentse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 850
  • WORLD PEACE PROTECTOR DORJE SHUGDEN
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2011, 04:19:31 AM »
I have nothing against Karmapa but if he succeeds Dalai Lama I would not follow him. Even if the current Ling Rinpoche succeeds Dalai Lama, I would also not follow him.

Through the whole Dorje Shugden ban ordeal, I have concluded to not follow any religious leaders who has to be involved with politics. They are made or forced by circumstances to enact things that do not match what I view as dharma or dharma activities.

But if one of the great teachers gave teachings and promote the dharma solely, I would very much respect them and pray for their success.

In my experience, for religious practice to just follow my guru whether he is alive or passed away. To follow my guru no matter what the pervasive political atmosphere may be.

TK

LosangKhyentse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 850
  • WORLD PEACE PROTECTOR DORJE SHUGDEN
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2011, 07:26:30 PM »
Now that Dalai Lama has handed the reigns of what little power he has left to the Tibetan Govt, it can only get worse on the whole for Tibtans but better for the undemocratic Shugden ban to disappear.

TK

Mana

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 894
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2011, 06:18:02 AM »
Perhaps the Tibetan govt and Dalai Lama realized with all of the money Karmapa has, how come he doesn't help the Tibetan govt of Tibetan communities that are not Kagyu. And with this recent scandal, it would be better to pin hopes on 'elected officials'. But either way, it's just a matter of time. Once the Dalai Lama passes away, the Tibetan Govt and whatever 'leaders' they 'elect' into office will also fade. Face the facts now, what power or diplomatic influence does the Tibetan Govt have with any govt in the world? Tibet is a part of China and everyone is afraid of China or needs China. Personally speaking, it seems to make more sense for any leader in the world to be friends with China whether ethically that is right or not. But economically it would serve any country better to be friends with China. China is the New World Order not the West so much anymore.

China will be the head of the New World Order. China will control the world economy, trends and directions. They are too big, too resoureful and to powerful to ignore. The West will do well by showing deference to China. If the Dalai Lama was asking for a last shot to help his ppl in Tibet before he dies, he should appeal to China directly and visit their leadership directly in Beijing. Make friends with them, then from this friendship, visit Tibet and ask Tibetans to cooperate with China as his last wish.Then after his death there will be less bloodshed. Dalai Lama making friends with Western countries is a waste of time and has gotten him nowhere after 50 years. What can the West do? Nothing. China must be respected. The West is facinated with Dalai Lama, but not to the point of forgetting their individual National economic welfare. Dalai Lama should make friends with Beijing as his last hope shot.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 06:47:35 AM by Mana »

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2011, 06:20:52 PM »
Just when one storm blows over, another one begins... amazing that there is yet another contender. This is the first i've heard of this.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-04-25/news/29471359_1_17th-karmapa-ogyen-trinley-dorje-16th-karmapa

After cash, Karmapa faces new controversy in contender

KATHMANDU: The Karmapa, the head of one of the four sects of Tibetan Buddhists, who has just survived a controversy over large amounts of foreign and Indian currency found in his monastery in India's Himachal Pradesh, now faces a third contender to the spiritual title.

Sikkim-born Dawa Sangpo Dorje is the third contender for the spiritual title, and at a press conference in Kathmandu Monday asserted that Ogyen Trinley Dorje was not the rightful reincarnation of the Karmapa, Tibetan spiritual leader Dusum Khyenpa who died in 1193 AD. Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the monk recognised by the Tibetan government in exile in India and the Dalai Lama.

Since Dusum Khyenpa's death, the Karma Kagyu sect of Tibetan Buddhists believes he was born 16 times more, in keeping with the Tibetan tradition of reincarnation of spiritual leaders with supernatural powers.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

thaimonk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2011, 07:53:02 PM »
Dawa Sangpo Dorjee dares 'ice meditation test' with Dalai Lama

Lama Dawa Sangpo Dorjee, a claimant of the 17th Gyalwa Karmapa to the questionable Rumtek Dharma Chakra seat Tuesday challenged the Dalai Lama to sit for a spiritual test to prove his authority of endorsing Orgyen Trinley Dorjee as the real Karmapa.
 
WITH JUST months left for Tibetan spiritual leader Dalai Lama’s Sikkim visit, Lama Dawa Sangpo Dorjee, a claimant of the 17th Gyalwa Karmapa to the questionable Rumtek Dharma Chakra seat on Tuesday challenged the Dalai Lama to sit for a spiritual test to prove his authority of endorsing Orgyen Trinley Dorjee as the real Karmapa.

The Karmapa row comes a week after thousands supporters of Orgyen Trinley Dorjee took out a massive rally in Gangtok demanding that the Centre to allow him to take his Rumtek Dharma Chakra seat, which is without a head after the passing away of the sixteenth Gyalwa Karmapa.

Addressing the reporters at his Tathangchen residence, Dawa Sangpo Dorjee said, having failed to meet the Dalai Lama nine times, he would this time try to meet him and call upon to meditate with their body sunken in ice for 7, 9, or 21 hours – to test spiritual power. “If he wins, I will withdraw my all claims of being the real 17th Gyalwa Karmapa, if not then the result is imminent’. Asked on the challenge, the Dawa Sangpo Dorjee said ‘Apart from proving spiritual powers, it can be known as to why he is so interested in the affairs of the Kagyupa sect of Buddhism.’

The Dalai Lama heads the Gyelukpa sect while the 17th Gyalwa Karmapa belongs to the Kagyupa sect.

‘Although I have never tried the challenge, I want to sit only to test the Dalai Lama, so that his interference in the affairs of the Karmapa issue comes to the fore. This is neither against Tibetan Buddhism nor against any individual’, said Dawa Sangpo Dorjee. The Lama further asserted his readiness to face test in all parameters except ‘education’ on which he claimed of being a self taught Lama without a Guru.

Commenting on the September 26 rally for Orgyen Trinley Dorjee, the Karmapa claimant said ‘Majority is not the only benchmark for reinstatement of the real Karmapa. It is not a political game where headcount determines majority’.

Dawa Sangpo Dorjee also criticized the state government’s proposal to develop a power project in the name of Lethang HEP over Rathong Chhu river.
 
Saying that Rathong Chu project which the state government scrapped in 1997 was being planned as Lethang project, he pointed out that constructing the project on a holy and sacred river is against the religious sentiments of the Buddhists. ‘People should come forward and raise voice against the project’ said the Lama.

source: http://www.merinews.com/article/dawa-sangpo-dorjee-dares-ice-meditation-test-with-dalai-lama/15832283.shtml

**********************************

After cash, Karmapa faces new controversy in contender

Kathmandu, April 25 (IANS) The Karmapa, the head of one of the four sects of Tibetan Buddhists, who has just survived a controversy over large amounts of foreign and Indian currency found in his monastery in India’s Himachal Pradesh, now faces a third contender to the spiritual title.

Sikkim-born Dawa Sangpo Dorje is the third contender for the spiritual title, and at a press conference in Kathmandu Monday asserted that Ogyen Trinley Dorje was not the rightful reincarnation of the Karmapa, Tibetan spiritual leader Dusum Khyenpa who died in 1193 AD. Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the monk recognised by the Tibetan government in exile in India and the Dalai Lama.

Since Dusum Khyenpa’s death, the Karma Kagyu sect of Tibetan Buddhists believes he was born 16 times more, in keeping with the Tibetan tradition of reincarnation of spiritual leaders with supernatural powers.

However, after the death of the 16th Karmapa – Rangjung Rigoe Dorje – in 1981, different groups put up different candidates for the post of the 17th Karmapa.

The Dalai Lama-recognised Ogyen’s claim has been challenged by Trinley Thaye Dorje, a 28-year-old who like Ogyen, was born in Tibet and escaped to India.

Dawa Sangpo, the third challenger, was born in north Sikkim, making him the first India-born contender for the title.

The 34-year-old, who has a fan following in Sikkim, started a renewed campaign in the Indian state this year to claim the disputed title.

The Sikkim Karmapa Committee, formed to push his claim, is also demanding that the Rumtek monastery in Sikkimese capital Gangtok, which was barred to all Karmapa claimants after the ownership tussle, be opened to Dawa Sangpo.

‘I am ready to undergo examinations to prove my claim,’ Dawa Sangpo said in his Kathmandu press conference Monday.

‘I am ready to undergo scientific and traditional examinations as well as one for testing supernatural powers,’ he added.

He also said it was a mistake to recognise Ogyen as the 17th Karmapa. His followers are saying Ogyen’s image was tarnished by the controversy that erupted in India this year following the raids on his monastery and suspicions that he could be a Chinese spy as a large amount of the Chinese yuan currency was found during the raids.

Ogyen maintained the money was donated by devotees and the Indian authorities, after subsequent investigations, gave him a clean chit.

source: http://www.inewsone.com/2011/04/25/after-cash-karmapa-faces-new-controversy-in-contender/45796

********************************

Video on Dawa Sangpo

Small | Large


« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 09:42:35 PM by Mana »

thaimonk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2011, 09:01:48 PM »
source: http://www.karmapa-issue.org/news/tashi.htm

AN OPEN LETTER: Reply to Tashi Wangdi's statement
Regarding the Karmapa issue     
     
   
   IIIIIIIII Date: 20.08.01
We refer to Mr Tashi Wangdi's (minister of religious and cultural affairs, exiled Tibetan government) statement in the Times of India on 14th of August, 2001. We respectfully disagree with his statement, which says that "there should be no controversy at all about the 17th Karmapa and head of the Kagyu sect, Urgyen Trinley Dorje."

We disagree with it because of the pretension the Tibetan exiled government can brush aside any contention or opposition created as a result of its machinations. We oppose it because it seeks to accuse both Thaye Dorje and Dawa Sangpo of duplicity and sham while offering no proof or explanation as would be prudent and appropriate in a pronouncement of this importance.

In consequence to statements such as this, a climate of suspicion and confusion has been created and perpetuated by the exiled government. On numerous occasions we are forced to make corrective statements to the exiled government's statements in order to clarify our positions, statements that are open to verification any time.

With regard to Dawa Sangpo, he is recognised and supported by the Sikkimese Sharpa community as the Karmapa. Although Mr. Wangdi equates Dawa Sangpo with Thaye Dorje, he obviously neglects to mention an important point of reference that would have made this equation invalid, namely: that Dawa Sangpo's
position is at variance with the tradition of the school to which this
particular community claims he belongs, i.e. to-date, he has not been recognised or accepted by either Shamar Rinpoche or Situ Rinpoche according to tradition.

If history means anything at all, Mr Wangdi has conveniently dispensed with it by taking the Karmapa's recognition completely out of context by limiting it to a mere question of the 'prediction letter'. But if tradition is any guide for human conduct, then it is worthwhile for Mr. Wangdi to note that, by Karma Kagyupa tradition, the Shamarpas have always been responsible for
the recognition or enthronement of the historical Karmapas: only when the Shamarpa is indisposed would Situ Rinpoche step in to fill the gap. Because of Mr Wangdi's statement and limited, albeit chosen perspective, it is appropriate to remind the reader that the history of Karma Kagyu tradition can be freely verified by anyone interested: all he or she needs to do is to refer to any of the major reference libraries in the USA, China, the Himalayan countries or India.

But, since Mr Wangdi has elected to narrow down the reincarnation issue to the 'prediction letter', at the expense of the Dalai Lama's perceived authority, one might add, it would be pertinent to recall the Tibetan exiled government's earlier insistence on the Dalai Lama's final word on the Karmapa issue. Is the complexity of reincarnation issues too much for Mr. Wangdi? His has been such a patchwork and arbitrary presentation of 'the relevant facts' that one is tempted to wonder if the minister is just incompetent in his job or he has another agenda. In any case taking a broader view of the complex
intertwining of Tibetan politics and religion might provide a better insight about the purpose and activities of the exiled government and, by implication, its bold disregard of public perception whenever it changes tack to suit its convenience.

One possible account is that: As the majority of Tibetan youths outside Tibet grows up in India and Himalayas, in a secular environment and goes to schools run by the exiled government, the traditional attachment to the identities respectively of the four religious schools is now replaced by a single national Tibetan identity represented almost exclusively by the Dalai Lama
and his exiled government, to the extent that the time-honoured distinctions of the Four Schools are no longer relevant in their lives.

The other possible account is: As idealistic and western disciples and followers of the Dalai Lama have now fatefully wedded their utopia to adistant Tibet and Tibetans dispossessed of their country, the majority of westerners would gladly identify the ideal of compassion and enlightenment in Tibetan Buddhism with Tibetan freedom and the Tibetans' 'natural' goodness. And since the Dalai Lama would have been an important head of state as well as a 'sacred' Buddhist monk (if Tibet were independent), westerners would also tend to regard the Dalai Lama implicitly, like Popes used to be, as supreme, infallible and perfect.

This then explains the boldness of the exiled government's ability and success to always put itself beyond the reach of critical examination. It is unfortunate that this should be allowed to happen at all, especially in face of the fact that the US Library of Congress had spent millions of dollars in past decades to gather and purchase extensive collections of Tibetan texts, both religious and secular, from India and Tibet, and deposited them in libraries across the country: Yet today, these ancient documents are just so
much 'waste paper', because when it is time to study these records for better understanding of current Tibetan problems, few if any have taken the trouble to do it.

Lastly we are obliged to correct Mr. Wangdi's statement which, apparently, refers to our "allegations that the Dalai Lama was supporting Urgyen Trinley Dorje" was " 'due to financial reason' ", etc. We never said that the Dalai Lama's support of Urgyen Trinley was due to financial reasons. But we did say that it was for political reasons that the Dalai Lama supported Urgyen Trinley as the Karmapa incarnation, and that it was completely out of character with our Karma Kagyu tradition.

Nonetheless, now that Mr. Wangdi, as minister of religion and cultural affairs, has changed tack again by saying that "a Karmapa is always chosen by the previous Karmapa, and according to a letter written by the 16th Karmapa¦.",etc., we will perhaps agree with him. To give him the benefit of the doubt, his statement appears to be in agreement with our tradition. Adherence to tradition is what we have repeatedly demanded in the past, namely:

1) if there is no letter of prediction, then the principal leader or leaders of the Karma Kagyu school will recognise or approve, as the case may be, the new Karmapa;

2) if, however, there is a letter of prediction, then the new incarnation should be recognised in accordance with the letter's instructions.

If the letter of prediction produced by Situ Rinpoche in 1992 is proven to be genuine, we would follow it without question to the end, and no doubt the Karmapa controversy would then be resolved peacefully. In any case we should be most appreciative if the exiled government would refrain from interfering further with our Karma Kagyu School. We should be most appreciative if the exiled government would respect our rights to our own affairs, and not to change the direction or the tone of dialogue again.


International Karma Kagyu Organisation
15 August, 2001

Karma Wangshuk

 

thaimonk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2011, 09:26:40 PM »
After cash, Karmapa faces new controversy in contender



Kathmandu, April 25 (IANS) The Karmapa, the head of one of the four sects of Tibetan Buddhists, who has just survived a controversy over large amounts of foreign and Indian currency found in his monastery in India’s Himachal Pradesh, now faces a third contender to the spiritual title.

Sikkim-born Dawa Sangpo Dorje is the third contender for the spiritual title, and at a press conference in Kathmandu Monday asserted that Ogyen Trinley Dorje was not the rightful reincarnation of the Karmapa, Tibetan spiritual leader Dusum Khyenpa who died in 1193 AD. Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the monk recognised by the Tibetan government in exile in India and the Dalai Lama.



Since Dusum Khyenpa’s death, the Karma Kagyu sect of Tibetan Buddhists believes he was born 16 times more, in keeping with the Tibetan tradition of reincarnation of spiritual leaders with supernatural powers.

However, after the death of the 16th Karmapa – Rangjung Rigoe Dorje – in 1981, different groups put up different candidates for the post of the 17th Karmapa.

The Dalai Lama-recognised Ogyen’s claim has been challenged by Trinley Thaye Dorje, a 28-year-old who like Ogyen, was born in Tibet and escaped to India.

Dawa Sangpo, the third challenger, was born in north Sikkim, making him the first India-born contender for the title.



The 34-year-old, who has a fan following in Sikkim, started a renewed campaign in the Indian state this year to claim the disputed title.

The Sikkim Karmapa Committee, formed to push his claim, is also demanding that the Rumtek monastery in Sikkimese capital Gangtok, which was barred to all Karmapa claimants after the ownership tussle, be opened to Dawa Sangpo.

‘I am ready to undergo examinations to prove my claim,’ Dawa Sangpo said in his Kathmandu press conference Monday.

‘I am ready to undergo scientific and traditional examinations as well as one for testing supernatural powers,’ he added.



He also said it was a mistake to recognise Ogyen as the 17th Karmapa. His followers are saying Ogyen’s image was tarnished by the controversy that erupted in India this year following the raids on his monastery and suspicions that he could be a Chinese spy as a large amount of the Chinese yuan currency was found during the raids.

Ogyen maintained the money was donated by devotees and the Indian authorities, after subsequent investigations, gave him a clean chit.



http://www.inewsone.com/2011/04/25/after-cash-karmapa-faces-new-controversy-in-contender/45796

thaimonk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2011, 09:29:08 PM »
Looks like Dharamsala's Tibetan Govt are losing more and more authority. More are standing up to Dharamsala's decisions even on the most sacred institutions.

When you have a good soup, you should be content, don't add more water in the soup to the point of losing taste. This is what is happening with Tibetan Govt in exile. Losing more of the little bit of prestige they had.

More and more are standing up to challenge the Tibetan Govt. For years the Tibetan Govt allows no dialogue, appeals or discussions on any of their so called democratic decisions. Whether Dawa Sangpo is the real Karmapa or not, no one will know. The interesting trend arising is challenge Tibetan Govt. They are not infallible.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 09:50:15 PM by Mana »

thaimonk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2011, 11:34:01 PM »
So much intrigue, confusion, and problems within the Karma Kagyu with three persons claiming to be Karmapa. Each candidate has a convincing story.

Since so many people have interfered with the recognition of the current Karmapa, to make it final, they should consult Shugden on which one is the mind or main incarnation. Shugden will have the full clairvoyance to see and decide once and for all. He can rise above human intrigue when in full trance.

Wouldn't that be an interesting prospect? The karma Kagyus consult Shugden for the correct incarnation of Karmapa. Why not? Then that is really a Rimey approach. You want Rimey, it should be both ways.


WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2011, 04:50:35 PM »
Which Dharma protector do the Kagyus propitiate anyway? Would they even consider propitiating a Gelugpa protector? eg i hear that even within the Gelugpa school, different monasteries have different protectors and they would only propitiate the protector from their own monasteries. is this true?

If so, it looks unlikely that the Karma Kagyus will consult Shugden, unless there are any Karma Kagyu people who are particularly open-minded.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Losang_Tenpa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
    • Email
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2011, 07:32:11 PM »
Breaking news: Letter from the Karmapa, Trinley Thaye Dorje, to the Dalai Lama.

http://karmapa.org/news/letters/letter_dalai_lama_english_resized.pdf

Mana

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 894
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2011, 12:34:25 AM »
Breaking news: Letter from the Karmapa, Trinley Thaye Dorje, to the Dalai Lama.

http://karmapa.org/news/letters/letter_dalai_lama_english_resized.pdf


This is an eye-opener, another problem Dharamsala has created because they are not doing their job well. They should not interfere with the Karmapa issue, Dorje Shugden practice, etc. It is good that the Karmapa Thaye Dorje's camp explains what happened.The Karma Kagyu has suffered great setbacks and tremendous loss of face due to this issue. It is sad because it was created by the Tibetan government. The Tibetan government should withdraw their backing of any Karmapa and apologize to the Karma Kagyu Sect for their interference and let the Karma Kagyu settle it among themselves. Similarly, the Tibetan government should withdraw all their negative statements and ban on Dorje Shugden and apologize to the Gelug Sect.

Create peace, harmony and unity among Dharma practitioners would be a good legacy for Tibetan govt to leave behind as their days are nearing an end.

Mana

« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 12:58:05 AM by Mana »

Losang_Tenpa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
    • Email
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2011, 11:58:39 AM »
This may be a silly question, but I really am curious....

Who is in possesion of the Black Hat? I have seen pictures of both Kramapas wearing the Black Hat....

Anyone know?

Helena

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 653
    • Email
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2011, 04:47:28 PM »
At the rate they are wearing the Black Hats, it seems that they are making their own Black Hats to wear. However, if we are talking about THE BLACK HAT worn by the previous Karmapa, i.e. the 16th Karmapa, then it is an interesting question as to who has it now.

By the way, I just saw a video of the other Karmapa - Trinlay Thaye Dorje, he speaks very well and clearly. I do like the way he presented how Buddhism is much more than a way of life.

We live in such interesting times where there is so much controversy.

Who is right and who is wrong? Who is the real Karmapa or are they all real?
 :)
Helena

vajrastorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
Re: Karmapa Raided over alleged illegal funds
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2011, 09:26:49 AM »
The sun of Dharma must not be dimmed or obstructed by clouds of politics, corruption and intrigue. There is such a tangle of intrigue, politics and corruption surrounding the ‘battle’ over recognition of the rightful Karmapa. Furthermore, the recent raid on the currently recognized Karmapa (that exposed a hoard of money and wealth being stashed away) greatly tarnishes the image of this supposed leader of the Kagyu Lineage. His credibility as a spiritual leader is questionable. So how can he be even considered as a likely successor of the Dalai Lama?

And now there is the question of ‘the Black Hat’. Who has the authentic Black Hat? But does this really matter, as the struggle for recognition of the rightful Karmapa seems to be looking more and more ludicrous.