Author Topic: suicide and the three lower realms  (Read 14353 times)

pgdharma

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2011, 09:38:23 AM »
Was discussing with a friend what would be the best way to die.

We came to the conclusion that whatever was instant and less pain would be best to lessen the ripening of negative karma at the time of birth.

If it was drawn out and very painful then our minds would not be able to cope with it and hence the negative karma would begin to arise, the attachments to this or that too.

Whereas if a bullet to your brain or something as quick you wouldn't have the chance to begin to think negative thoughts.

Based on this conclusion I would think that suicide would lead to a negative rebirth as leading up to the act of killing yourself the mind would already be preoccupied with negative thoughts.

I doubt they cease when the onset of death kicks in and your realise that your really going to die.

what does everyone think?
Tragic and sudden death are the worst ways to die. When our negative karma arises and our life-spent is up, if  we are not prepared mentally to face death then our mind will have fear and in a state of shock. Through this negative thoughts that arises during death, I think that the next rebirth will not be a good one as  the negative karma will continue to the next rebirth.

DSFriend

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2011, 01:45:01 PM »
This debate reminds me of the latest BATMAN movie that has an extraordinary scene involving two ferries.
Those who have seen the movie would know what I am talking about.

Ferry A has bombs on board and the detonator is given to the captain of ferry B.
Ferry B also has bombs and the detonator is given to the captain of ferry A.
The villain (aka The Joker) has both detonators and gives 30 minutes to each captain with a choice: if they detonate the bombs on the other ferry, they'll be safe... If no bombs has been detonated after 30 minutes, he would make both ferries blow!
This scene got me clueless as to what would be the right thing to do...

Not to blow up the other ferry is like suicide... or is it "sacrifice"?
What is the difference between suicide and sacrifice then?
What about the other people on the ferry who do not wish to sacrifice, and if I am the captain, I am killing them because I refuse to blow up the other ferry?
Then If we do nothing, after 30 minutes twice as many people would die?

What an wicked scenario...

oh..what a scenario! Yes, I remember that scene and thought it was "brilliant" ..of course without thinking about it from a karmic perspective!

If given that option, I'll choose not to blow up the other ferry so as to not incur the karma of "actively" killing... if there is such a thing! What a karma to be caught in such a situation!

Roberto

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2011, 09:16:45 PM »
Was discussing with a friend what would be the best way to die.

We came to the conclusion that whatever was instant and less pain would be best to lessen the ripening of negative karma at the time of birth.

If it was drawn out and very painful then our minds would not be able to cope with it and hence the negative karma would begin to arise, the attachments to this or that too.

Whereas if a bullet to your brain or something as quick you wouldn't have the chance to begin to think negative thoughts.

Based on this conclusion I would think that suicide would lead to a negative rebirth as leading up to the act of killing yourself the mind would already be preoccupied with negative thoughts.

I doubt they cease when the onset of death kicks in and your realise that your really going to die.

what does everyone think?

I think that getting shot, or meeting an accident (death on the spot) or any SUDDEN deaths are the worst ways to die.

The body and mind will not be able to go through the normal dying process (where the winds dissolves). It will all happen very quickly. Like shutting down a computer by pulling the plug rather than going through the normal shutting down process.

The mind is shocked, disturbed and you will definitely not be ready to go.

Yes you wouldn't have "much time to think", but you wouldn't have any time to think at all. That shocked state might land you in a terrible rebirth.

This is quite possibly why we have so much paranormal encounters, or the existence of ghosts and demonic spirits. Instant death, and what was occuring at the time of death. Mourning a loved one, in a state of panic during freefall after your car goes off a cliff. So many situations to be in as you are dying that you really wouldn't be in control of anything as you are dying.

Hence I believe having some Buddhist trainging of the mind, in the end is all that really matters.

triesa

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2011, 05:20:31 AM »
Was discussing with a friend what would be the best way to die.

We came to the conclusion that whatever was instant and less pain would be best to lessen the ripening of negative karma at the time of birth.

If it was drawn out and very painful then our minds would not be able to cope with it and hence the negative karma would begin to arise, the attachments to this or that too.

Whereas if a bullet to your brain or something as quick you wouldn't have the chance to begin to think negative thoughts.

Based on this conclusion I would think that suicide would lead to a negative rebirth as leading up to the act of killing yourself the mind would already be preoccupied with negative thoughts.

I doubt they cease when the onset of death kicks in and your realise that your really going to die.

what does everyone think?

I think that getting shot, or meeting an accident (death on the spot) or any SUDDEN deaths are the worst ways to die.

The body and mind will not be able to go through the normal dying process (where the winds dissolves). It will all happen very quickly. Like shutting down a computer by pulling the plug rather than going through the normal shutting down process.

The mind is shocked, disturbed and you will definitely not be ready to go.

Yes you wouldn't have "much time to think", but you wouldn't have any time to think at all. That shocked state might land you in a terrible rebirth.

This is quite possibly why we have so much paranormal encounters, or the existence of ghosts and demonic spirits. Instant death, and what was occuring at the time of death. Mourning a loved one, in a state of panic during freefall after your car goes off a cliff. So many situations to be in as you are dying that you really wouldn't be in control of anything as you are dying.

Hence I believe having some Buddhist trainging of the mind, in the end is all that really matters.

What Jessicajameson and Roberto pointed out here are very valid. An uncontrolled mind (sudden death in shock and no time to think and prepare)  will take you to unpleasant realms. Whereas a stable and controlled mind upon death will not create so much negative thoughts that will bring about the ripening of negative karma.

Look at all the high lamas upon death, most of them meditated and expell their consciousness at their wishes. Our minds may not be 100% like these enlightened minds, but if prepared well, that is through study of lamrim, death meditation, strong guru devotion and clean samsya, we will experience a peaceful transition that will bring about a good rebirth..... 

diamond girl

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2011, 08:28:42 PM »
The heavier negative karma is the very act of killing of oneself. The karma to experience the suffering the person was enduring is merely delayed. If the karma has not fully ripened, it will ripened again in the next life. Death does not purify nor negate the fruitioning of negative karma. In other words, there is no escape although many people think of suicide as an escape but in reality, it is just a easy doorway to more suffering. 
[/quote]

This is a good explanation. It is scary yet clear... I have always felt that people who kill themselves are selfish because they do not think about the people they leave behind, who have to survive their death. A person who can bring oneself to take their own life must be troubled and hopeless that they see suicide as the only option. Given this state of mind with so much disturbances and mental unpeace, it must be grasping at point of death... This will lead to the lower realms...

Barzin

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2011, 08:47:43 PM »
True enough, people who choose to commit suicide usually think that negative karma would end that way.  What happened after?  Do they still serve their karma?  Or is it the end?  Clearly we know that the last thought really matters at the point of death, this could lead to a higher or lower rebirth and yet we are still slaves to our karma.  It doesn't end with death.  Many lack of the knowledge therefore led them into making a very wrong decision...  After death, I believe is a whole new dimension; things that we can't see, feel or touch... It is scary.  It explains there is why many have had paranormal experiences.  If only we know what the consequences are with our actions, I think more will be more sensible in making choices in life.  That is why personally i think dharma understanding is essential. 

On the other hand, I am also thinking...  Let's say a person choose to end his/her life, indirectly he or she will hurt many who cares and love him/her by the action.  Does this create a bigger and more negative karma due to own selfish action?  So does this being serve his karma in the lower realms or carry forward to next life?   

diamond girl

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2011, 11:04:03 AM »

On the other hand, I am also thinking...  Let's say a person choose to end his/her life, indirectly he or she will hurt many who cares and love him/her by the action.  Does this create a bigger and more negative karma due to own selfish action?  So does this being serve his karma in the lower realms or carry forward to next life?  

Barzin, taking one's own life is indeed very selfish. Death does not solve problems. Given what Karma is and how it works with cause and effect, the cause of suicide will indeed effect negative karma. Killing is one negative. Selfish thinking is another. No consideration of other's suffering is another add onto the pile.

Anyone if even remotely thinking of suicide, please do not act on the thought. Get help... Focus on a Protector... Learn and devote to Dorje Shugden.

Barzin

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2011, 07:58:50 PM »
Diamond girl.  It is so true what you had just said.  Little do we know how each action can lead to negative karma which scarily divided into sections adding to the pile of existing negative karma.  Indeed, if we are fortunate to enough to get to know a protector who can help us to purify our negative karma swiftly, bring conducive conditions for us to practice dharma, calm our mind down.. all the benefits we can go on and one, why not? 

The powerful Dorje Shugden indeed has what it takes to guide us to the right path, a greater path.  He is the protector of today's age and what we are looking for...

dsiluvu

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2011, 12:29:38 PM »
Yes Barzin, we are truly lucky to have this great fortune to know about Dorje Shugden... but if we commit suicide, I don't think we will get his help to take a good rebirth.

What kind of mind set would a person be if they are thinking of taking their own life? Must be a person who is deep in depression and has found no way out. Must be a person who has no merits, and the basis of Dorje Shugden to help us is merits and Guru devotion. So even if our beloved protector wants to help you...he could not... I heard it will be like a thick cloud covering his sight that DS cannot see you and would not be able to help you even if he wanted.

So don't ever go there, don't even think about committing suicide... unless your highly attained and can control your winds hehe

kris

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2011, 06:59:08 PM »
This is what I learnt about this topic:

  • It is very difficult to be reborn as human. We must have done a lot of good things in our previous life. At the same time we have also collected negative karma, which if we don't purify, we will go down to three lower realms
  • After we die, we will be coming back into one of the 6 realms (unless we become Buddha). If we are not prepared or have proper practice, at the time of death, then our next rebirth will be a "random" or uncontrolled one. Given the scenario, do we want to take the chance? :)

Klein

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2011, 07:47:51 PM »
I heard/read somewhere that suicides all go straight to hell realm - does anyone know if there's any scriptural basis for this? Or is it because people who commit suicide are more than likely to be dying with thoughts of depression or anger, and the throwing karma of that emotion will send them to the three lower realms, if not the hell realm?

If someone commits suicide to get out of a terminally ill disease and may die 'with a happier mind' - would that mean they can commit suicide but not go to the three lower realms?

I have heard in dharma talks that any form of killing is a cause for the person to go straight to the hell realm. So by committing suicide to get out of a terminal disease, it's karma to not only go straight to hell, but to continue the suffering of the disease in another life because the karma to suffer was not exhausted.

So it is necessary to understand that it's more important to help a person in their future lives than just focus on the current life time.

biggyboy

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2012, 06:31:00 PM »
Very often people think that suicide is the solution to all their troubles, that is looking from the physical point of view.

However spiritually it is altogether different.

Suicide is killing, that is killing oneself which is a grave sin and with it bad karma.  For this you go straight to hell. The second sin is passing judgement on oneself. Both these sins have severe repercussions . Because you have decided to take your own life, you are also shortening the ripening of the karma without completing it. One would have to complete the karma in the next life.
The act of committing suicide has the following serious consequences:

1.   Sin of killing
2.   Sin of judging oneself
3.   Cutting short the ripening of karma.

All the above consequences have severe repercussions and bad karma.

It is so sad that there are so many suicide cases happening daily.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2015, 07:15:44 AM »
I have always wanted about this question of whether suicide will make us descend to the lower realms with our without valid and even at times seem compassionate reasons.  I am reviving the following explanation from DSFriend which is very clear.

"Buddhism, euthanasia and suicide

Buddhists are not unanimous in their view of euthanasia, and the teachings of the Buddha don't explicitly deal with it.

Most Buddhists (like almost everyone else) are against involuntary euthanasia. Their position on voluntary euthanasia is less clear.

States of mind

The most common position is that voluntary euthanasia is wrong, because it demonstrates that one's mind is in a bad state and that one has allowed physical suffering to cause mental suffering.

Meditation and the proper use of pain killing drugs should enable a person to attain a state where they are not in mental pain, and so no longer contemplate euthanasia or suicide.

Buddhists might also argue that helping to end someone's life is likely to put the helper into a bad mental state, and this too should be avoided.

Avoiding harm

Buddhism places great stress on non-harm, and on avoiding the ending of life. The reference is to life - any life - so the intentional ending of life seems against Buddhist teaching and voluntary euthanasia should be forbidden. Certain codes of Buddhist monastic law explicitly forbid it.

Lay-people do not have a code of Buddhist law, so the strongest that can be said of a lay person who takes part in euthanasia is that they have made an error of judgement.

Karma

Buddhists regard death as a transition. The deceased person will be reborn to a new life, whose quality will be the result of their karma.

This produces two problems. We don't know what the next life is going to be like. If the next life is going to be even worse than the life that the sick person is presently enduring it would clearly be wrong on a utilitarian basis to permit euthanasia, as that shortens the present bad state of affairs in favour of an even worse one.

The second problem is that shortening life interferes with the working out of karma, and alters the karmic balance resulting from the shortened life.

Euthanasia as suicide

Another difficulty comes if we look at voluntary euthanasia as a form of suicide.

The Buddha himself showed tolerance of suicide by monks in two cases. The Japanese Buddhist tradition includes many stories of suicide by monks, and suicide was used as a political weapon by Buddhist monks during the Vietnam war.

But these were monks, and that makes a difference. In Buddhism, the way life ends has a profound impact on the way the new life will begin.

So a person's state of mind at the time of death is important - their thoughts should be selfless and enlightened, free of anger, hate or fear.

This suggests that suicide (and so euthanasia) is only approved for people who have achieved enlightenment and that the rest of us should avoid it."



pinecone

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2015, 02:13:21 PM »
“Taking one’s own life under any circumstances is morally and spiritually wrong. Taking one’s own life owing to frustration or disappointment only causes greater suffering. Suicide is a cowardly way to end one’s problems of life. A person cannot commit suicide if his mind is pure and tranquil. If one leaves this world with a confused and frustrated mind, it is most unlikely that he would be born again in a better condition. Suicide is an unwholesome or unskilful act since it is encouraged by a mind filled with greed, hatred and delusion. Those who commit suicide have not learnt how to face their problems, how to face the facts of life, and how to use their mind in a proper manner. Such people have not been able to understand the nature of life and worldly conditions.”
– Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda–
It is unwise to think that one’s problems and suffering will ceased when  chose to end one’s life.  Buddhist believes that the only thing that we could carry along with us in time of death , is only our consciousness . Hence, if we have died in fear, anger and full of regret, we will transcend to the lower realms .

MoMo

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Re: suicide and the three lower realms
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2015, 03:18:02 PM »
Fear of death does not only apply to those who do not believe in Karma, in fact it was universal to all. Whether someone committed suicide or death by euthanasia, the state of mind would always be on the negative side due to its nature of death. Most would be greatly tormented by fear of utter extinction at death.

I had read that in some text that mentioned about “Eight Great Fear” or eight ways one life ended that will results into hell realms. They are:
1. Drowning or water 2. Thieves 3. Lions 4. Snakes 5. Fire 6. Spirits or flash-eating demons 7. Imprisonment 8. Elephants, which correspond to eight inner aspect of the mind: 1. graving and attachment  2. Wrong view 3. Pride 4. Poison of envy and jealousy 5. Anger 6. Doubt 7. Avarice 8. Wrong view.

In another text, Buddha mentioned that there’re 3 type of craving 1. The desire of sense-pleasures 2. The desire of becoming/existence  3. The craving of annihilate.

Suicide and euthanasia belong to the third type of desire which arising from wrong view. When one dies, one mind would be in the mixture of the eight kind of mental state as stated in “eight great fear” and the bardo being had to takes rebirth into some planes of existence or another—probably which could be worse than one before!