HHDL Dissidents That Are Not Shugdenpas

[DharmapalasDharma]

Why can't His Holiness the Dalai Lama give the same treatment he gives to Tibetan Exiles who support Tibetan Independence over the Middle Way to Shugden Followers. Why did H.H. meet with Kunzig Shamarpa regarding the Karmapa Issue. And why does His Holiness ban Shugdenpas from Bodh Gaya but allows followers of his rival Karmapa candidate. I wonder why other people can speak out against His Holiness but Shugdenpas get the harshest and cruelest treatment. Why will His Holiness continue to support and talk to such people as Shamar Rinpoche, Lhasang Tsering, and Tenzin Tsundue but turn his back on his own Lineage Master's work. Please reply and tell me what you think.

[Zach]

Why can't His Holiness the Dalai Lama give the same treatment he gives to Tibetan Exiles who support Tibetan Independence over the Middle Way to Shugden Followers. Why did H.H. meet with Kunzig Shamarpa regarding the Karmapa Issue. And why does His Holiness ban Shugdenpas from Bodh Gaya but allows followers of his rival Karmapa candidate. I wonder why other people can speak out against His Holiness but Shugdenpas get the harshest and cruelest treatment. Why will His Holiness continue to support and talk to such people as Shamar Rinpoche, Lhasang Tsering, and Tenzin Tsundue but turn his back on his own Lineage Master's work. Please reply and tell me what you think.

Because this is our Karma.
And it is in the process of being purified...In the future our tradition will be strong and most importantly free from political interferance from internal and external, it is valuable in that we can now more then ever really apply the teachings we have been given and put them into practise in the face of adversity.

[Vajraprotector]

I agree with Zach. In the future, the tradition of Gelug with Shugden as the main protector will be strong and independent, free from political interferance from the monastic and also political pressure.

I for one cannot believe that a lama who works so hard and willingly carries a heavy burden of the hopes and dreams of the Tibetans, is a hypocrit or is a fake Dalai Lama. I don’t think His Holiness could become the most recognisable symbol of Buddhism in the world and win a Noble Peace prize if he is. Even if he was a hypocrit, I don’t think His Holiness would have millions of people, including intelligent scientists and world leaders who revere him.

I remember reading Victor Chan’s ‘Wisdom of Forgiveness’, in which he described when he first met His Holiness. This was when His Holiness was not yet a superstar and has not yet visited the West (hence no need to make fake reasons to appeal to the media / public).

The first question he asked the Dalai Lama was, "Do you hate the Chinese?" The Dalai Lama answered swiftly and easily in English: "No" in his native language he added that his quarrel was with the Chinese Communist Party, not with the Chinese people.

His Holiness still considered the Chinese his brothers and sisters, and he forgave them without reservation. It was an answer that made an indelible impression on Victor Chan, who is a member of the race that destroyed Tibet, the Dalai Lama's homeland.

For someone like His Holiness who forgave his "enemy" - the Chinese, I’m sure he definitely has nothing against his own countrymen or Buddhists who pray to become better or to have their obstacles removed through Shugden practice. Someone like him who can forgive people who wanted to kill him and chased him out of his homeland where he is the king – that said a lot for the kind of person he is.  On that basis, I’m sure he doesn’t care if Shugden practice/practitioners  is a threat to his life.

[triesa]

Why can't His Holiness the Dalai Lama give the same treatment he gives to Tibetan Exiles who support Tibetan Independence over the Middle Way to Shugden Followers. Why did H.H. meet with Kunzig Shamarpa regarding the Karmapa Issue. And why does His Holiness ban Shugdenpas from Bodh Gaya but allows followers of his rival Karmapa candidate. I wonder why other people can speak out against His Holiness but Shugdenpas get the harshest and cruelest treatment. Why will His Holiness continue to support and talk to such people as Shamar Rinpoche, Lhasang Tsering, and Tenzin Tsundue but turn his back on his own Lineage Master's work. Please reply and tell me what you think.

The disparity in the way HH Dalai Lama treats Shugdenpas and others is so obvious that it is definitely a "double standard" principle. But how can HH Dalai Lama have double standards? That doesn't make sense at all.  Like what Zach said, this is our karma, indeed it is. I do believe this is the time for heavy purification for a better future for Shugden practitiioners and the Gelug lineage.

[kurava]

I agree with Zach that when all these are over the lineage will definitely be stronger and it will  flourish.

Look at what happened with Tibetan Buddhism. After being chased out of their homeland and persecuted by Communist China, the lamas brought Vajrayana Buddhism to the rest of the world. The secret lineage is no longer confined within Shangri-la and the whole world has benefited as a consequence of the misfortune or tragedy suffered by the Tibetans.

I strongly believe after this "suppression", there will be no way but UP for the DS lineage - what goes down must come up !

[triesa]

There is always a silver lining at the end of the storm 

I guess, all parts and parcels of the purification process!

[DSFriend]

Read this comment in  "Time Magazine – The Dalai Lama’s Buddhist Foes" and took the liberty to copy it in here as it's applicable to this discussion

Sarah says:
October 10, 2010 at 3:16 am
I can imagine that it would be difficult, for Westerners brought up on the importance of human rights, to accept the ban which, in their view, is equivalent to an attack on the right to worship. As a result there have been attempts to “civilise” the minds of their Asian brothers by pointing out the inhumane way in which Shugden practitioners are treated, especially in the Tibetan camps in India. This is not wrong. But it is seen from a worldly view. From the karmic viewpoint, things are not so simple. So it is best not to blame anyone if one is suffering. Suffering can be physical and mental.

[hope rainbow]

I wouldn't know how to verify this information, I just found it in a recent book "Tibet -a history of conscience -JP Barou and S Crossman". This book retraces the history of Tibet, its Spiritual Teachers and sketches a plan in motion, a plan to spread the Dharma and to benefit many, many sentient beings.

This is the information: we know that the 6th Dalai Lama had to remain a secret for the 15th first year of his life because the passing of the Geat 5th was to remain a secret. When he evantually came out of secrecy (1697), he surprized many by dis-robing, courting girls, wearing long hair and jewellery and writing "galant" poetry.
In 1701, not understanding the actions of the 6th Dalai Lama, Lhasang Khan, a Khoshut Mongol king captured the 6th Dalai Lama (after which he disappeared or died, we don't really know) and imposed a "6th" of his choice.
We can imagine how in-appropriate the actions of the 6th Dalai Lama would have been perceived by his contemporaries.

According to JP Barou and S Crossman, this is what the 14th Dalai Lama said about the 6th:
" the 6th Dalai Lama dis-robed because there was a plan in place. If the 6th Dalai Lama, dis-robed, would have remained the Dalai Lama with popular support, he would have had a son who would have becom king. This would have been better, the status of the Dalai Lama would have been very stong, from father to son! Tibet, then, would not have needed help or protection from the mandchous emperors. And the troubles which lasted from the XVII to the XIX century would not have happened. This is my speculation."

Now, if this is true, it is a clear illustration that if we cant seem to understand how enlightened beings operate because we lack vision, we should at least have faith and trust in their actions; the results might only show in the long term in a way we cannot always imagine.

[beggar]

Read this comment in  "Time Magazine – The Dalai Lama’s Buddhist Foes" and took the liberty to copy it in here as it's applicable to this discussion

Sarah says:
October 10, 2010 at 3:16 am
I can imagine that it would be difficult, for Westerners brought up on the importance of human rights, to accept the ban which, in their view, is equivalent to an attack on the right to worship. As a result there have been attempts to “civilise” the minds of their Asian brothers by pointing out the inhumane way in which Shugden practitioners are treated, especially in the Tibetan camps in India. This is not wrong. But it is seen from a worldly view. From the karmic viewpoint, things are not so simple. So it is best not to blame anyone if one is suffering. Suffering can be physical and mental.

Thanks for sharing this. Just to clarify - this was a comment following the article? Or the article itself? It is a little confusing.

In any case, i agree very much with what this Sarah person says. The efforts to protect one's "Asian brothers" and counterparts who are suffering by the ban is certainly a noble one and there is no doubt that it does come with the best of intentions to help others. But yes, the karma is not always that simple. Sometimes, if we are reacting in a way that is directly against other lamas, practices or traditions we could actually be creating more damage in the long run either to ourselves or others.

It is a good lesson and practice (in all aspects of our practice) to never blame others for our suffering. If it is someone else that we see suffering, sometimes (or most of the time) getting back at the person who is "to blame" just creates a more negative situation. Try a more positive way - look at how to help the situation instead, how to directly relieve others' suffering, what role you can play to contribute to a happier, positive situation.

[WisdomBeing]

I wouldn't know how to verify this information, I just found it in a recent book "Tibet -a history of conscience -JP Barou and S Crossman". This book retraces the history of Tibet, its Spiritual Teachers and sketches a plan in motion, a plan to spread the Dharma and to benefit many, many sentient beings.

This is the information: we know that the 6th Dalai Lama had to remain a secret for the 15th first year of his life because the passing of the Geat 5th was to remain a secret. When he evantually came out of secrecy (1697), he surprized many by dis-robing, courting girls, wearing long hair and jewellery and writing "galant" poetry.
In 1701, not understanding the actions of the 6th Dalai Lama, Lhasang Khan, a Khoshut Mongol king captured the 6th Dalai Lama (after which he disappeared or died, we don't really know) and imposed a "6th" of his choice.
We can imagine how in-appropriate the actions of the 6th Dalai Lama would have been perceived by his contemporaries.

According to JP Barou and S Crossman, this is what the 14th Dalai Lama said about the 6th:
" the 6th Dalai Lama dis-robed because there was a plan in place. If the 6th Dalai Lama, dis-robed, would have remained the Dalai Lama with popular support, he would have had a son who would have becom king. This would have been better, the status of the Dalai Lama would have been very stong, from father to son! Tibet, then, would not have needed help or protection from the mandchous emperors. And the troubles which lasted from the XVII to the XIX century would not have happened. This is my speculation."

Now, if this is true, it is a clear illustration that if we cant seem to understand how enlightened beings operate because we lack vision, we should at least have faith and trust in their actions; the results might only show in the long term in a way we cannot always imagine.

Dear Hope Rainbow,

Thank you for sharing that interesting snippet. It is interesting that the Dalai Lama institution could have become a hereditary one, like the Sakya school. Though since the Dalai Lama is Gelugpa and Lama Tsongkhapa called for celibacy as a one of the Gelug monk vows, I wonder if this rule for the Gelugpa would have changed.

[pgdharma]

I agree with Zach that when all these are over the lineage will definitely be stronger and it will  flourish.

Look at what happened with Tibetan Buddhism. After being chased out of their homeland and persecuted by Communist China, the lamas brought Vajrayana Buddhism to the rest of the world. The secret lineage is no longer confined within Shangri-la and the whole world has benefited as a consequence of the misfortune or tragedy suffered by the Tibetans.

I strongly believe after this "suppression", there will be no way but UP for the DS lineage - what goes down must come up !

Totally agree with you, kurava. I  strongly believe that  after going through all the difficulties and obstacles to do such a powerful practice, when the time is right , there will be no way but UP!!!

[jessicajameson]

Read this comment in  "Time Magazine – The Dalai Lama’s Buddhist Foes" and took the liberty to copy it in here as it's applicable to this discussion

Sarah says:
October 10, 2010 at 3:16 am
I can imagine that it would be difficult, for Westerners brought up on the importance of human rights, to accept the ban which, in their view, is equivalent to an attack on the right to worship. As a result there have been attempts to “civilise” the minds of their Asian brothers by pointing out the inhumane way in which Shugden practitioners are treated, especially in the Tibetan camps in India. This is not wrong. But it is seen from a worldly view. From the karmic viewpoint, things are not so simple. So it is best not to blame anyone if one is suffering. Suffering can be physical and mental.

With ref to what DharmapalasDharma first wrote, I also do think that it is the effect of our karma..everyone else so far seems to agree as well. However, like what DSFriend quoted...from a karmic viewpoint things are not so simple.

The thoughts that we hold, the "sides" that we take or don't take, where we are expressing our opinions from, whether the temples that we pray at worship DS or don't, the circumstances that we are in, the period of time we are in in relation to the DS controversy..whether we hold such extreme views and are violent towards Shugdenpas ..whether we sit on the fence..whether we are teachers who advise our students to practice DS or not................regardless of being on the "bad" side or the "good" side, I feel that we are ALL in someway karmically connected together to prepare for Dorje Shugden to be brought into the world BIG when the time is right.

What are the chances that we even read or hear Dorje Shugden's name, let alone be born in the time when the controversy is at its' height?

Like how DharmapalasDharma questions "I wonder why other people can speak out against His Holiness but Shugdenpas get the harshest and cruelest treatment.", getting the harshest treatment makes an impact. It stirs peoples' feelings, it makes them think, it highlights something. People get drawn to controversies.

I'm not saying that I agree with cruelty, be it for any being, but the different treatment that Shugdenpas get has gotten people's (who might not have necessarily have heard of Buddhism at all) attention. On a global scale.

This is just my opinion.

[DharmaSpace]

The ban could be a form of purification.

However i buy the 'Bigger Picture' as promoted by this site, His Holiness have to make it real for people and China to believe it.

[Mana]

People hardly know or heard of Shamar Rinpoche, Lhasang Tsering, and Tenzin Tsundue, but they sure heard of Shugden, again and again and again.

If people heard of Shamar Rinpoche, Lhasang Tsering, and Tenzin Tsundue, most likely the sources are limited to Buddhist texts and Dharma centers; but for Shugden, people heard of him even out of the Buddhist circle, in newspaper, in media, in television; and major media like BBC and CNN and TIME has mentioned his name before, and in far wider regions, from USA to China.

Which Buddhist names have 'enjoyed' such high profile besides Shakyamuni, Dalai Lama and the very few elites?

Many years later, people will forget about what happened, but they will remember the name "Shugden".

The purpose is served.

[WisdomBeing]

People hardly know or heard of Shamar Rinpoche, Lhasang Tsering, and Tenzin Tsundue, but they sure heard of Shugden, again and again and again.

If people heard of Shamar Rinpoche, Lhasang Tsering, and Tenzin Tsundue, most likely the sources are limited to Buddhist texts and Dharma centers; but for Shugden, people heard of him even out of the Buddhist circle, in newspaper, in media, in television; and major media like BBC and CNN and TIME has mentioned his name before, and in far wider regions, from USA to China.

Which Buddhist names have 'enjoyed' such high profile besides Shakyamuni, Dalai Lama and the very few elites?

Many years later, people will forget about what happened, but they will remember the name "Shugden".

The purpose is served.

Shugden has the highest media profile of any Dharma Protector or Buddhist deity save Shakyamuni!

And who put him up there in neon lights and dancing girls with pompoms? The Dalai Lama!

The purpose is indeed served.