dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mana on September 09, 2010, 07:44:55 AM
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We dorje shugden practitioners do not agree with Dalai Lama and his incorrect stance against Shugden. From whatever angle you examine this, it is wrong. But as responsible Buddhists who are holding perhaps the three sets of vows, we should not just bash the Dalai Lama. We may express clearly our feelings and with logic give evidence and that is fine.
This forum is for both pro and anti Shugden people because by debating we can come to a better understanding of eachother. War of words motivated from bias, anger and hate will go somewhat ahead but not fully ahead. Shugden practitioners are in a sort of minority although millions practice him, so the peaceful and logical way to make our case heard is the right way to go. After all, karma will follow all whether you like the Dalai Lama or not.
Therefore Dalai Lama bashing is NOT ENCOURAGED on this website at all. Our website is not aligned to any centre, hence it will not be a platform for the sole views of any centre's but can share views of all centres.
Mana
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Good valid points, Mana.
It's important to be reminded of this - especially when our emotions run high and that is very easy and does often happen!
I myself have enjoyed this Forum very much and benefited from it a great deal.
Hence, to me, it is a most wonderful sacred space, filled with valuable information and original content such as the first ever Dorje Shugden illustrated story with narration in the world.
I love this website.
Whoever the people or individual behind this website truly loves DS and is or are not selfish.
They must work this hard because they care about others as they want others to receive the benefits of this Supreme Protector Practice. It is not just about them.
These are some the things which touch me about this website as I can see clearly how much effort go into this website. The team could not have possibly create this website to serve themselves. So, for this and more, I truly appreciate.
So, thank you, Mana, for the kind reminder and I would like to thank the website team yet again for doing so so much.
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Our Wonderful tradition of Je Tsongkhapas profound instructions teaches us that we should view all living beings without exception as our kind mother as they have been in innumerable past lives, While I would denounce my mothers Ignorance and wrong view on such grounds I would never wish her harm but would only pray for her health and happiness and alleviation of Disturbing views, The Dalai Lama is also my kind mother and i shall extend the same courtasy to him weather we are abused, shouted at mistreaten or beaten, Dorje Shugden looks after my Dharma practise and helps increase our realizations, Those who rely upon him sincerly will have no problem demonstrating a pure wealth of restraint and discipline with regards to those who cause harm to us, The first practise of a Bodhisattva is cherishing others so in the spirit of the tradition our Dharma protector upholds let us follow this example without falter and cherish others even if they turn against us. :)
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Our Wonderful tradition of Je Tsongkhapas profound instructions teaches us that we should view all living beings without exception as our kind mother as they have been in innumerable past lives, While I would denounce my mothers Ignorance and wrong view on such grounds I would never wish her harm but would only pray for her health and happiness and alleviation of Disturbing views, The Dalai Lama is also my kind mother and i shall extend the same courtasy to him weather we are abused, shouted at mistreaten or beaten, Dorje Shugden looks after my Dharma practise and helps increase our realizations, Those who rely upon him sincerly will have no problem demonstrating a pure wealth of restraint and discipline with regards to those who cause harm to us, The first practise of a Bodhisattva is cherishing others so in the spirit of the tradition our Dharma protector upholds let us follow this example without falter and cherish others even if they turn against us. :)
Very refreshing and uplifting! Thank you Zach.
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Our Wonderful tradition of Je Tsongkhapas profound instructions teaches us that we should view all living beings without exception as our kind mother as they have been in innumerable past lives, While I would denounce my mothers Ignorance and wrong view on such grounds I would never wish her harm but would only pray for her health and happiness and alleviation of Disturbing views, The Dalai Lama is also my kind mother and i shall extend the same courtasy to him weather we are abused, shouted at mistreaten or beaten, Dorje Shugden looks after my Dharma practise and helps increase our realizations, Those who rely upon him sincerly will have no problem demonstrating a pure wealth of restraint and discipline with regards to those who cause harm to us, The first practise of a Bodhisattva is cherishing others so in the spirit of the tradition our Dharma protector upholds let us follow this example without falter and cherish others even if they turn against us. :)
well said ;)
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Our Wonderful tradition of Je Tsongkhapas profound instructions teaches us that we should view all living beings without exception as our kind mother as they have been in innumerable past lives, While I would denounce my mothers Ignorance and wrong view on such grounds I would never wish her harm but would only pray for her health and happiness and alleviation of Disturbing views, The Dalai Lama is also my kind mother and i shall extend the same courtasy to him weather we are abused, shouted at mistreaten or beaten, Dorje Shugden looks after my Dharma practise and helps increase our realizations, Those who rely upon him sincerly will have no problem demonstrating a pure wealth of restraint and discipline with regards to those who cause harm to us, The first practise of a Bodhisattva is cherishing others so in the spirit of the tradition our Dharma protector upholds let us follow this example without falter and cherish others even if they turn against us. :)
Well said, Zach! You rock!
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Our Wonderful tradition of Je Tsongkhapas profound instructions teaches us that we should view all living beings without exception as our kind mother as they have been in innumerable past lives, While I would denounce my mothers Ignorance and wrong view on such grounds I would never wish her harm but would only pray for her health and happiness and alleviation of Disturbing views, The Dalai Lama is also my kind mother and i shall extend the same courtasy to him weather we are abused, shouted at mistreaten or beaten, Dorje Shugden looks after my Dharma practise and helps increase our realizations, Those who rely upon him sincerly will have no problem demonstrating a pure wealth of restraint and discipline with regards to those who cause harm to us, The first practise of a Bodhisattva is cherishing others so in the spirit of the tradition our Dharma protector upholds let us follow this example without falter and cherish others even if they turn against us. :)
That is the spirit of this forum! Very well said Zach indeed.
Cheers,
Triesa
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Zach, bravo!
Spoken like a true practitioner of Dorje Shugden who encourages mind-transformation and kindness always. It is people like you, and your example, which will inspire many people towards Dorje Shugden because they see you, your action and your practice and realise that it is good. We are always the best example to "show off" our practices.
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We dorje shugden practitioners do not agree with Dalai Lama and his incorrect stance against Shugden. From whatever angle you examine this, it is wrong. But as responsible Buddhists who are holding perhaps the three sets of vows, we should not just bash the Dalai Lama. We may express clearly our feelings and with logic give evidence and that is fine.
Mana
Thanks Mana for maintaining decorum! What you (and beggar - who replied this post in another thread I believe) have said makes very much sense to me. If we are participating in this forum and wish to build up its reputation, credibility and strength as a forum/resource centre, then we must also act and write in a way that will reflect that.
People coming on here don't want to hear all the pettiness of "this lama, that lama" "this policy, that policy". They will want to practice dharma - and we too would like them to practice dharma! So let's make that possible for them, the Buddhist way - which is to present them with as much information and education as possible.
Perhaps they don't agree at first, but that "disagreement" and debate may be the very impetus for them to first find out more, develop faith and begin to practice. Perhaps it will spur them on to find a teacher. Perhaps it will lead them down a road of investigation that leads to a dharma centre and supportive, "live" dharma community that will encourage them to practice... you just never know!
Either way, I agree very much that we must respect other readers' intelligence and allow them the space and place to come to their own informed decisions, based upon useful, beneficial information presented here (and everywhere on the website).
(this, I think, applies not just to what we do on this forum, but in all our conduct everywhere. People see us as the first representative of Dorje Shugden, Lama Tsongkhapa, the lamrim - so how do we reflect that? Do we share more information with others to soothe their mind? Or do we just irritate/ offend even more?)
And here, we owe a big round of applause and gratitude to the website for making it possible for us to gain all this information / education, and therefore continue to share it and pass it on. May many, many more gain access to these precious teachings.
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Our Wonderful tradition of Je Tsongkhapas profound instructions teaches us that we should view all living beings without exception as our kind mother as they have been in innumerable past lives, While I would denounce my mothers Ignorance and wrong view on such grounds I would never wish her harm but would only pray for her health and happiness and alleviation of Disturbing views, The Dalai Lama is also my kind mother and i shall extend the same courtasy to him weather we are abused, shouted at mistreaten or beaten, Dorje Shugden looks after my Dharma practise and helps increase our realizations, Those who rely upon him sincerly will have no problem demonstrating a pure wealth of restraint and discipline with regards to those who cause harm to us, The first practise of a Bodhisattva is cherishing others so in the spirit of the tradition our Dharma protector upholds let us follow this example without falter and cherish others even if they turn against us. :)
If every forum participant accepts what you wrote and follows this beautiful practice, then all dorje shugden practitioners can unite in one voice for one cause without bickering within. That is the right way to go. Good job Zach.
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Our Wonderful tradition of Je Tsongkhapas profound instructions teaches us that we should view all living beings without exception as our kind mother as they have been in innumerable past lives, While I would denounce my mothers Ignorance and wrong view on such grounds I would never wish her harm but would only pray for her health and happiness and alleviation of Disturbing views, The Dalai Lama is also my kind mother and i shall extend the same courtasy to him weather we are abused, shouted at mistreaten or beaten, Dorje Shugden looks after my Dharma practise and helps increase our realizations, Those who rely upon him sincerly will have no problem demonstrating a pure wealth of restraint and discipline with regards to those who cause harm to us, The first practise of a Bodhisattva is cherishing others so in the spirit of the tradition our Dharma protector upholds let us follow this example without falter and cherish others even if they turn against us. :)
I like what you said. May we all practice in harmony!!!
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What I like about this forum is that most of the participants can express their views in a logical manner without over bashing others.
Most people destest conflicts, but it really depends on how you take the stand. Even in disagreement, there is absolutely no need to call each other by names which are obviously rude. I always like to see both sides of the coins, because that give me an opportunity to have a wider vision and more clarity will arise.
As forum participants, we should always remember to pay respect and appreciation to the hard work of team of people behind this web site. We should all strive to make this forum a great educational and learning ground for everyone.
Afterall, we should cherish those who hurt us, by upholding the principles of the buddhadharma, and being a real Dorje Shugden practitioner. That I think...... will please our dear Dharma protector Dorje Shugden very much.
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I think it's great that Dalai Lama's direction now is to ask people to "check out" and that "It is up to you whatever deity you want to worship"!
Also, anyone who thinks logically will see that from the beginning until now, the "contradiction" in Dalai Lama's speech is very obvious. If Dalai Lama wants to destroy reliance on Dorje Shugden, I think he will go all the way, afterall, Dalai Lama is still the most popular and authoritative Tibetan Buddhism master.
On a worldly view, Dalai Lama can have control of the Tibetans, but not NKT, nor practitioners under many Shugden lamas in various countries, especially with the establishment of Serpom & Shar Gaden.
Also, I am sure such statement/direction will make more Chinese who wants unity in great motherland curious and check out who this Shugden is.
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Everything in good time :)
We can either choose to be part of the group of people or even pioneers who made it possible for Dorje Shugden to be promoted everywhere, or we choose to be part of the group of people who just complain, disparage and accuse others for having faith in both HHDL and Dorje Shugden.
I rather choose to be in the group that promotes our great Protector and educate as many people as possible, enabling them to really check it out for themselves, because HIS TIME HAS COME.
So, we all need to work for the Dharma and the Protector to flourish.
As another poster rightly wrote, HIS TIME IS HERE.
When more people get connected with Dorje Shugden, everyone wins because everyone will be guided into the Dharma.
There lies the greatest unity of all, IN DHARMA, BY DHARMA - all thanks to a most Supreme Transcendant Protector.
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Everything in good time :)
We can either choose to be part of the group of people or even pioneers who made it possible for Dorje Shugden to be promoted everywhere, or we choose to be part of the group of people who just complain, disparage and accuse others for having faith in both HHDL and Dorje Shugden.
I rather choose to be in the group that promotes our great Protector and educate as many people as possible, enabling them to really check it out for themselves, because HIS TIME HAS COME.
So, we all need to work for the Dharma and the Protector to flourish.
As another poster rightly wrote, HIS TIME IS HERE.
When more people get connected with Dorje Shugden, everyone wins because everyone will be guided into the Dharma.
There lies the greatest unity of all, IN DHARMA, BY DHARMA - all thanks to a most Supreme Transcendant Protector.
Well spoken :)
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Everything in good time :)
We can either choose to be part of the group of people or even pioneers who made it possible for Dorje Shugden to be promoted everywhere, or we choose to be part of the group of people who just complain, disparage and accuse others for having faith in both HHDL and Dorje Shugden.
I rather choose to be in the group that promotes our great Protector and educate as many people as possible, enabling them to really check it out for themselves, because HIS TIME HAS COME.
So, we all need to work for the Dharma and the Protector to flourish.
As another poster rightly wrote, HIS TIME IS HERE.
When more people get connected with Dorje Shugden, everyone wins because everyone will be guided into the Dharma.
There lies the greatest unity of all, IN DHARMA, BY DHARMA - all thanks to a most Supreme Transcendant Protector.
Hear hear, Helena!
I choose to be in that group too. After all, what is the motivation of complaining and disparaging? What is the karma? To put down any member of the sangha accrues us negative karma, and if the Dalai lama is a Buddha, what is the karma of putting down a Buddha?
Let's be positive and the best promotion of Dorje Shugden would be by the behaviour of Dorje Shugden practitioners. Are we kind? Are we compassionate? Do we create harmony around us - our families, at our workplace? Are we cutting down our selfishness? Do we keep our promises?
If we embody DS' qualities and we say we practice DS, people will look at us, and say - so that is what a Dorje Shugden practitioner is like. That is Dharma.
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I would like to add that just because we, due to lack of merit, are not able to see His Holiness as Chenrezig, doesn't mean he is not.
I heard this story about a high lama recently. He was staying in an apartment, and had been keeping a low profile, wearing lay clothes, while one of his attendant (an older monk) wears monk robes. The security guard had seen the high lama going in and out with the attendant. And one day, he requested the high lama (a high Rinpoche) to "pass a mala (rosary) to be blessed by the high lama (the older attendant monk in monk robes)'. Clearly, we unattained people cannot tell who is attained and who's not but only base on external appearance alone.
Also, Guru Shakyamuni Buddha also predicted to the bodhisattva Thayä Rigchog, “The Chenrezig who
is going to work for the transmigratory beings of the Snowland of Tibet is you.”. Furthermore, the teachings say, “The guide of all the sentient beings in the Snowland of Tibet will hold the position of a king. The savior of Tibet, Phurgyäl Yül, is my heart disciple. His holy mind is completely clear, without obscuration, but he will work for sentient beings in a hidden
manner by acting as an ordinary being.”
We need to reflect also WHY we have this need to bash a lama? Is it REALLY to serve justice? Is this the method to bring about PEACE or create more SCHISM?
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We need to reflect also WHY we have this need to bash a lama? Is it REALLY to serve justice? Is this the method to bring about PEACE or create more SCHISM?
excellent, VajraProtector. And such a great and perfect story about the mistaken identity of the high lama and his attendant. Imagine - we are doing this all the time without realising!
Your question above:
Yes, we must always question our motivation for bashing, criticising or even questioning the actions of a high being. Questioning, debate and sometimes even critique is good - we must look at the result of the questioning, debate and critiquing. Does it make the other person think deeper about their practice and inspire more faith in their minds? Or does it create more confusion and drive them away from their teacher and practice?
It is good to present the facts. At our level, even facts may not really be what they seem. So yes, we can present the "bad and the ugly" facts; but if we do that, then it is ALSO necessary (I would say COMPULSORY) to present the good facts - how kind a lama has been, the many successes of his teachings and actions, exemplary students who have followed him, the content of his teachings (and how they can help us).
The point is to encourage people to practice and give them the understanding to do it, not turn them away from it or take them further away from understanding.
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Thank you both, VajraProtect and Beggar.
You have both raised very valid points and this is precisely why we are in this Forum, still holding the same faith in HHDL and DS.
The problem is some people out there are just refusing to believe and accept that WE ARE ALL NOT ATTAINED and ARE NOT ABLE TO SEE/TELL the difference between an Enlightened Being or a normal being. Hence, their strong attachments to their perception and beliefs would create a great deal of suffering for themselves and others.
How can a common ordinary person who has indulged in secular life criticize any High Lama who has given his or her entire life to the Dharma, and serving the welfare of others? How can a mere mortal tell an Enlightened Being that he or she knows better?
Impossible...hence, because we are un-attained, it is wiser for us to engage in activities that would allow us to promote peace, harmony, understanding and mutual respect.
We should not engage in activities that would create more bad karma for ourselves and lead others to the same fate. It just does not equate to what we are supposed to be practising as Buddhists.
At the end of the day, it is very easy to see if a person's motivation is to help and benefit others -- be it via debates, discussions, questioning and etc - we just need to see the results. Here, results will reveal themselves at their own time.
As always, in Buddhism, the sacrifice of the few for the greater whole will always hold supreme. We are always concerned with the ultimate benefit, and not something short term or medium term.
Ultimate means in the lives after this and also one's inner transformation.
So, if we all might have to suffer for a specific period of time but it will bring about a greater benefit for the whole in the near future, then it is well worth it.
Tibet lost its independence and that is very painful to many many people. And yet, from there, Buddhism spreads to the whole world. Is that not worth it?
More people are able to practice Buddhism or just hear and see Dharma centers in their own neighbourhoods when compared to decades ago. Is this not true spiritual progress?
As such, we must bear in mind, what truly benefits the whole and not just ourselves - however difficult and painful this might seem at this time.
I would imagine, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen would not have sacrificed his own life and stopped being a Dharma Teacher if he did not believe it was well worth it. He even told his murderers how to kill him. That is how supreme and great his compassion is.
Now, how many of us would gladly endure an unpleasant situation for a few minutes with calmness and compassion?
Most of us can't even sacrifice our own private time or pleasures for someone else, so we do not have to talk about serving the welfare of others in any way.
There is much to be learnt from one another. Honestly, without each other, we would also no have chance to practice what our Gurus have taught us. So, be glad that we live to practice and cherish every opportunity to practice.
Just thinking about the 6 Paramitas daily would be a great start to begin our day and end our day.
May be then we are much closer to becoming true practitioners of the great Dharma and be worthy of Dorje Shugden.
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Dear Vajraprotector
I think we should also consider the possibility that the attendant was in fact the more highly realised being and that by relying on titles and reputation we have been mistaken ....
No double meaning intended btw, just that titles and reputation are neither of them qualifications listed by Maitreya of a qualified teacher.
With best wishes
Robert
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Dear Vajraprotector
I think we should also consider the possibility that the attendant was in fact the more highly realised being and that by relying on titles and reputation we have been mistaken ....
No double meaning intended btw, just that titles and reputation are neither of them qualifications listed by Maitreya of a qualified teacher.
With best wishes
Robert
Dear Robert,
Yes indeed - the attendant could be a more realised being.. after all, anyone and everyone could be a Buddha in disguise!
I think that reputations are earned, not given, so if someone with a title does not behave according to their title, people may not respect them after checking them out, regardless of what the title is.
The exceptions would be Mahasiddhas who tend to behave contrary to expected behaviour and as a result, they may be criticised heavily by traditionalists. However, i do believe that they would be gauged by the RESULTS of their behaviour, which would allow people to see if they are enlightened or not.
Saying all that, i think that my personal judgment may be flawed because of my deluded mind so in the end, it would just be simpler to listen to my Guru - if my Guru trusts a particular person with or without a title, I would trust him too.
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Dear Wisdombeing
Absolutely we should trust our teachers, I agree. But in general i don't put much emphasis on reputation as it is often based on worldly concerns. From history we can see many examples showing that it is the people who oppose wrong views and actions that suffer and are generally called 'bad', at the time, whilst those who support the prevailing status quo will naturally be praised. Then later that status quo was found to be harmful and reputations are reversed. Also of course Vajraproector's main point is entirely correct,
"Clearly, we unattained people cannot tell who is attained and who's not but only base on external appearance alone. "
I just wanted to consider some other areas from the story.
All the best
Robert
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Dear Robert,
Yes - i do agree that reputations can change and reverse depending on the prevailing popular wind at the time. Sometimes it is only when we look back historically that we can gauge more objectively the actions and results of a particular person.
Re your point that reputation is one of the eight worldly concerns - yes it is. However, i think that if the motivation of the person with the reputation is pure - i.e. he or she is not seeking a good reputation, then he or she is not subject to the worldly concerns.
Everything is perception - that's why I am suspicious about my own opinion sometimes!
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I like your last line, WB - "Everything is perception."
Isn't it amazing that one's perception is so powerful? It can become a prison and limitation to one's real growth/development, or it can propel one further and faster than one could ever imagine.
It is good to reflect on one's opinions and not be too attached to it. Every single reality that we hold will diminish or change with a single new piece of information or evidence.
I try my best to keep an open mind because nothing is permanent and that rigid in samsara.
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Helena said:
"Every single reality that we hold will diminish or change with a single new piece of information or evidence. "
Very nice ... ;D
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I like your last line, WB - "Everything is perception."
Isn't it amazing that one's perception is so powerful? It can become a prison and limitation to one's real growth/development, or it can propel one further and faster than one could ever imagine.
Ah, but at the same time, it can also be the very thing that destroys us – it can be powerful both ways like you said. It isn’t only that it limits us or imprisons us. It is the very thing that leads us to do wrong things (repeatedly too, I might add!) which keeps us trapped here. Even a seemingly “positive” perception – for example, that having a relationship is good – can ruin us in the end.
So in this case, when we are perceiving and critiquing lamas and the dharma it becomes a very tricky thing, especially as the karma involved here is quite a lot more “heavy”. Then what can we do?
I think the most accurate gauge is to rely on the wisdom of our teachers – we have chosen them for a reason, to guide us, after all! So if our teachers advise us not to bash other lamas (and I believe most sincere and genuine teachers would), then we should follow suit and understand their meaning: that it is not beneficial at this time to speak like this and it doesn’t help our or anyone else’s practice.
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This is a good discussion - what is reality after all. From what i understand, everything is illusory, so i agree with what Beggar says - that we should rely on our teachers who have the wisdom we don't. Unfortunately, I think that a lot of Dharma students do not fully rely on their teachers, or are selective about what the teachers say. I have some friends whose teacher told them not to protest for Tibetan independence but they still joined in the protests at Trafalgar Square (this was a few years ago). They justified that their teacher could not advise on political matters, which i felt was a cop out.
We can mostly justify anything. I know I'm quite an expert in that. We've been justifying all our lives in order to follow our own deluded paths. If we are fortunate enough to have a spiritual teacher, then we should go all the way with him or her because he or she would know better - i personally think it's quite liberating that someone knows what i should do rather than my fumbling in the dark, which hasn't served me well over the years.
just my reflection for the day.
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I disagree with what's being said here. I think we need to use our discriminating wisdom and not just lapse into a blanket pure view that anaesthetizes our ability to discriminate right from wrong, good from bad and harmful from beneficial.
It's quite possible that Mara could manifest as a famous Buddhist Teacher. Don't you think this would be Mara's most effective disguise? Being the wolf in sheep's clothing, he could do a lot of damage. The thing is, he would do it by appearing publicly to follow the Buddhist teaching, garner a lot of praise and use his miracle powers to influence people to blindly follow a view that would be harmful to the Teaching. He would cut the root of reliance on the Lineage Gurus by spreading doubts about their actions, making the teachings dead in the water. He would cut his own root of Guru devotion by declaring his Teachers to be wrong and claiming some special insight. He would encourage people to mix traditions and would maintain a political correctness by not promoting the special views in Buddha's teachings but claiming that all traditions are the same. He would appear to promote 'from the mouth' religious freedom, respect for other's views and religious harmony whilst causing deep divisions in the Buddhist community by taking sides in disputes and undermining the independent nature of Buddhist traditions, using his charisma and charm to cause people to follow wrong views.
How are you going to tell the difference between Buddha and Mara if this actually happens and you refuse to critically assess the actions of Buddhist teachers for fear of creating bad karma? I think we need to respond appropriately to conventional appearances instead of denying them.
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Dear Lineageholder,
I wish i had discriminating wisdom. Unfortunately I don't .. yet. In fact, it is precisely the fact that Mara can disguise himself as a Buddha, let alone a Buddhist teacher, that I would not trust my own ability to discriminate.
I think that we are advised to rely on our Gurus for guidance on especially these kind of issues, although in the absence of guidance, i would rely on the Dharma which tells me that i should not criticise the Sangha. How can i judge when i don't even really know what to judge by, since i hold no sangha vows myself. I remember Tenzin Sungrab has said in a previous post that he just follows the example of the great gurus, which is not to criticise, and i heartily agree with that.
Perhaps your teacher advises you to criticise so you are just following his example or teaching, which would be correct for you. However, i do believe that each person has their own spiritual teachers, which may differ from teacher to teacher, so i think it's best that we follow our teacher's advice.
I personally prefer to err on the side of caution in these matters because i'm truly afraid of adding to my already substantial negative karma.
Yours,
a wannabe discriminating wisdom being
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I must say that personally I find it rather sad to see the lengths taken to justify or even praise the Dalai Lamas wrong views and actions as being somehow the deeds of a great being to further Dharma whilst at the same time showing the appearance of being embarrassed or ashamed of the actions of WSS, such as protests and A Great Deception. These activities of WSS seem to my mind to truly be wrathful actions whose purpose and result has been to stop or limit the power of those wrong views and actions. Also liberating many others to see the Dslai Lama's actions for what they are and therefore to break the spell of confusion that he had cast.
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Well said, Robert.
I agree with WisdomBeing that it is best to follow one's Guru's instructions. My Guru didn't tell me to criticise the Dalai Lama but he is involved in the WSS and 'A Great Deception' makes it very clear that the Dalai Lama's actions are deceptive and harmful. I can also see the results of his actions, so I follow the view expressed in that book. I think it's very brave of the WSS to engage in direct criticism of the Dalai Lama, knowing how much criticism will be incurred by it. WSS don't care - they are doing what is most beneficial for the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa.
I can understand that it is better not to criticise the Dalai Lama if your Guru said not to, but to actually justify these actions (which is nothing less than a schism in the Sangha) as a great service to the Dharma saddens me too. I believe it is a measure of the confusion that exists in this degenerate age.
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I must say that personally I find it rather sad to see the lengths taken to justify or even praise the Dalai Lamas wrong views and actions as being somehow the deeds of a great being to further Dharma whilst at the same time showing the appearance of being embarrassed or ashamed of the actions of WSS, such as protests and A Great Deception. These activities of WSS seem to my mind to truly be wrathful actions whose purpose and result has been to stop or limit the power of those wrong views and actions. Also liberating many others to see the Dslai Lama's actions for what they are and therefore to break the spell of confusion that he had cast.
I can't speak for others, but personally i don't think i have praised the Dalai Lama's actions re this ban on Dorje Shugden. Neither have I been embarrassed of the actions of the WSS. In fact, i think that i have stated somewhere in the forum that while i personally wouldn't go for the protests, i understand why they were carried out and that the protests did fulfil the purpose of bringing attention and awareness of Dorje Shugden to the world.
It is very obvious that within the Shugden practitioners, there are those who are against the Dalai Lama and there are those who believe in the 'bigger picture' i.e the Dalai Lama has a hidden agenda. While neither the twain shall meet, i do hope that we can keep our respective opinions without denigrating each other. Wouldn't it be better to focus on the benefits of Dorje Shugden practice rather than what we think about the Dalai Lama?
If we truly love our practice, what can we do to positively promote it, which does not involve any negative behaviour or thought? Isn't that what Buddhism is about?
Criticising the Sangha is schism and if we don't like other people practising schism, i think that we should be the first to not indulge in it.
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Dear wisdom being
I couldn't have said it better. I suppose in the west, we are conditioned to be individualistic, to think for ourselves and to exercise our intelligence. I do feel that we are fortunate to have such an upbringing.
However, it may be an obstacle if we completely approach spirituality in this manner, esp in vajrayana where the Guru is the supreme guide. We should think n question (isn't debates a method esp in the gelug tradition) We can create unnecessary obstacles to our spiritual journey if we do not rely on our teacher n insist that we know better.
In this forum, there are students from various gurus. Our Gurus use various methods to teach us.
Outwardly, it may appear students are performing various tasks which seem in direct contradiction as instructed by their Gurus. One Guru may tell his students to protest. Another may instruct not to protest. What I do know is that all the attained lamas are working together harmoniously though outwardly it may not look it.
I do not mean to generalize and I hope I am not offending anyone with what I'm sharing. They r merely my own limited observations.
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Instead of always focussing on Dalai Lama's 'faults' and repeating it over and over, it would be better to think, since the Dalai Lama has made Dorje Shugden so famous, let see what we can do to take over from here to make Dorje Shugden even more well known.
tk
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In fact, i think that i have stated somewhere in the forum that while i personally wouldn't go for the protests, i understand why they were carried out and that the protests did fulfil the purpose of bringing attention and awareness of Dorje Shugden to the world.
Hi Kate,
The purpose of the protests was to bring attention to the unholy actions of the DL, so as to stop him from destroying Je Tsongkhapas tradition and to ask him to stop lying and give religious freedom. The purpose was not to bring attention and awareness of Dorje Shugden to the world.
http://www.youtube.com/user/drmnaga78#p/u/24/cutBI8hKARA
http://www.youtube.com/user/drmnaga78#p/u/25/sIL_c9dc7CU
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Mohani is right - the demonstrations were to highlight the evil actions of the Dalai Lama and to protect the Ganden tradition from being destroyed by him. I'm not really interested in bringing awareness and attention of Dorje Shugden to the world, I'd rather bring Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings to the world. It's my purpose to promote the Dharma, the sole medicine for all sickness rather than reliance on a Dharma protector as a general practice for everyone.
I think if we harbour the view that our job is to promote Dorje Shugden, we are playing into the hands of the Dalai Lama who is claiming that Shugden practitioners see DS as more important than Buddha Shakyamuni. I'm not being disrespectful here when I say that relying on Dorje Shugden is a niche practice for the students of Je Tsongkhapa only. DS is the protector of the Ganden Lineage, not of Buddhadharma in general. Whereas the Dalai Lama's plan is to destroy the practice of Dorje Shugden, and this is one extreme, I find that this forum has gone to another extreme - the exaggeration of Dorje Shugden as a general Deity for everyone and the promotion of his practice above all else. I can't agree with this. Dorje Shugden has an important role to play for followers of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition but he's not more important than the Guru or the Deity. My wish is for those who want to rely upon Dorje Shugden to have the religious freedom to do so, not universal acceptance and reliance on Dorje Shugden.
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Mohani is right - the demonstrations were to highlight the evil actions of the Dalai Lama and to protect the Ganden tradition from being destroyed by him. I'm not really interested in bringing awareness and attention of Dorje Shugden to the world, I'd rather bring Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings to the world. It's my purpose to promote the Dharma, the sole medicine for all sickness rather than reliance on a Dharma protector as a general practice for everyone.
I think if we harbour the view that our job is to promote Dorje Shugden, we are playing into the hands of the Dalai Lama who is claiming that Shugden practitioners see DS as more important than Buddha Shakyamuni. I'm not being disrespectful here when I say that relying on Dorje Shugden is a niche practice for the students of Je Tsongkhapa only. DS is the protector of the Ganden Lineage, not of Buddhadharma in general. Whereas the Dalai Lama's plan is to destroy the practice of Dorje Shugden, and this is one extreme, I find that this forum has gone to another extreme - the exaggeration of Dorje Shugden as a general Deity for everyone and the promotion of his practice above all else. I can't agree with this. Dorje Shugden has an important role to play for followers of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition but he's not more important than the Guru or the Deity. My wish is for those who want to rely upon Dorje Shugden to have the religious freedom to do so, not universal acceptance and reliance on Dorje Shugden.
It is the purpose of this website to:
1. Bring attention to the ban by showing views from both sides pro-against Dorje Shugden. Let the readers make up their mind.
2. To promote the practice of Dorje Shugden and to highlight his practice to the world. As there are many other cyberspaces that highlight Shakyamuni/Tsongkapa's holy teachings, but not many to bring Dorje Shugden to others.
3. By bringing the authenticity of Dorje Shugden/practice/lineage to the world, it automatically highlights the great lineage lamas under attack at this time. When people gain faith/confidence in the lineage lamas, naturally as a by-product, they will embrace the sacred teachings of Shakyamuni/Tsongkapa. Hence this sacred website automatically leads the practitioners to the authentic teachings of Shakyamuni/Tsongkapa.
It is not the purpose of this website to:
1. Be platform for hate messages against the Dalai Lama or any other lama. You may express your views in a polite manner. Whether you like the Dalai Lama or subscribe to some of our views toward his actions is of no consequence to us.
2. It is not a platform for the views of any centres.
3. It is not a platform for centers to use it as a platform for their political activities against the Dalai Lama/his actions or any lama/tradition/centres. We respect all forms of Buddhism and all religions.
This website is PRIVATE CYBER DOMAIN. It is up to the webmaster and our team to follow the views we adhere to from day one of this website's inception. If you find it 'extreme' or not to your liking, then it is up to you not to participate. But we do not need your constant criticism of our views. I repeat, this is a private space and you are a guest.
We will post any information as and when we like and we do not need anyone's approval nor disapproval. If you do not like some of the information, then you need not comment and proceed to what you like.
We are gracious enough to offer a platform for your views although we may not always agree/subscribe to it, but keep your views polite and moderate your speech. Since we are able to offer you a space to share your views, you should appreciate this space where we share our views.
We have been a platform for anyone who wishes to know more of Dorje Shugden which will enhance their practices of Buddha's teachings. We have worked hard and long hours. We have spent much resources. We are committed. So I think you should look for the many good points in our efforts and works manifested in this website instead of faults.
Mana
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It is our true hope by understanding Dorje Shugden better, it removes the 'faults' of the lineage lamas. By the lineage lamas having no faults as wrongly described by the TGIE, people will gain faith in them and congregate to them for teachings. This is our hope. What prevents people from going to these lineage lamas is that they practice/teach Dorje Shugden. So if Dorje Shugden's practice is made clear, it will exonerate the holy lineage lamas. Then people will not criticize the lineage lamas. The lineage lamas alive today will not be seen as deviant, hence many will flock to recieve teachings from them. Far from being deviant, the lineage lamas are perfect vessels of BuddhaDharma. This website definitely promotes BuddhaDharma via Dorje Shugden.
We are very happy you can make Dorje Shugden well known in the world as it will definitely help the Lineage of Tsongkapa expand in this degenerate age.
Mana
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I'm sorry to have to say this, but your reiteration of the forum rules is a little heavy handed.
By your rules, it's possible to praise the Dalai Lama and even state that his actions are beneficial for the Dharma, but as soon as someone questions this or states that his actions are destroying Buddhadharma, this is not permitted. How does this site differ from the Tibetan Government in Exile's view, other than to disagree with the ban? No one has used derogatory language about the Dalai Lama - aren't we permitted to question his actions and his motivation?
Are the only people who are allowed here those who have an unquestioning faith and reliance on both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden? Why can't this be a free thinking forum? What are people afraid of? I'm responsible for my own karma but you're telling me what I can and cannot say. I understand that there have to be rules but rude or obscene language has not been used. I'm only asking you to question the values you are holding.
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i think these past few posts are critical to how this forum moves forward. And the whole intention is to move forward because from my observations, this issue has been repeated over and over again - really like samsara.
Lineageholder - : you say
I'm not really interested in bringing awareness and attention of Dorje Shugden to the world, I'd rather bring Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings to the world. It's my purpose to promote the Dharma, the sole medicine for all sickness rather than reliance on a Dharma protector as a general practice for everyone.
That's great. I'm very happy that you want to bring Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings to the world and many should do the same. However, as far as i can tell, the intention of this site is to raise awareness and promote Dorje Shugden.
See Mana's point from above:
2. To promote the practice of Dorje Shugden and to highlight his practice to the world. As there are many other cyberspaces that highlight Shakyamuni/Tsongkapa's holy teachings, but not many to bring Dorje Shugden to others.
Ergo, Lineageholder - it looks like you are looking for a different space than what is offered here. It's not who is right or wrong but that you simply have very different objectives.
The forum/website owners and moderators have very clearly stated the purposes of this space.
Mana:
This website is PRIVATE CYBER DOMAIN. It is up to the webmaster and our team to follow the views we adhere to from day one of this website's inception. If you find it 'extreme' or not to your liking, then it is up to you not to participate. But we do not need your constant criticism of our views. I repeat, this is a private space and you are a guest.
We will post any information as and when we like and we do not need anyone's approval nor disapproval. If you do not like some of the information, then you need not comment and proceed to what you like.
Your wishing to impose your views here is like putting a round peg in a square hole and with no disrespect, it simply doesn't work and appears to be mutually uncomfortable.
I don't think it's a case of your not being allowed to express your views, it's just the repetition of it. You've already expressed your views many times on many threads. So you have stated your questions already. If it is not enough, then i really do think you are in the wrong place.
There are many other forums out there who would welcome Dalai Lama bashing, but as one of the forum participants here, i really don't enjoy conflict, and i like the current peaceful, harmonious environment of this forum.
i sincerely trust that the moderators will keep it that way.
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It is disappointing that we have returned to the same debate again.
I don’t need to repeat what Mana has already said as it is very clear; also the intentions and aims of this website are very clear.
I wish to make it clear that the website has never said that you cannot debate or question what the dalai lama has said or done. There are countless articles and videos on this website itself that shows the situation as it is and the truth behind what is happening. This is clear enough. The website also doesn’t need to keep repeating this point about the “wrongs” of the dalai lama to turn people’s minds away from him – there is enough evidence, information, education, media coverage for intelligent 21st-century minds to make informed decisions themselves.
Yes, we have heard many times the views against the dalai lama. This is also very clear by now.
My (our) question back to you is: SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO DO ABOUT IT NOW?
Yes, so maybe the dalai lama did some things you do not agree with or which you feel are wrong. So what else are you going to do about the situation to help others? Sitting on a forum complaining about the wrongs he has done, talking about how evil he is etc over and over again does not get anyone anywhere.
Some good questions to ask ourselves is: “how many people have I brought to the dharma by doing what I’m doing?” are more people practising dharma because of all the things you are saying against the dalai lama? Are more people inspired and have stronger faith in the dharma, lamrim, tsongkhapa, dorje shugden, their lamas? How are you going to contribute to bringing more people to the lamrim, shakyamuni’s teachings? How will you help people to clear their obstacles and open their minds to dharma? That would be much more constructive than just repeating the same old points about how bad the dalai lama is, because how far has that gotten you?
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Dear Lineageholder,
I am writing as a Forum Participant who has been enjoying the Forum, following it and I do appreciate it a lot.
Hence, I am writing for myself.
Kindly do see that you have been given the freedom to express your views and that is why you can continue doing so plenty of times.
With no disrespect to you but, frankly, I am sorry to have to say this to you but YOUR reiteration of your views is beyond a little heavy handed by now.
Is this all you have to say, time and time again? Nothing else to add?
The fact that the Moderators have to post and re-post the rules of the Forum (yet again) may be an indication that you are not understanding it, or that you understand it and do not wish to respect it. So, the moderators are really reminding you for your benefit.
Please kindly remember that we are all guests here.
This is not your Forum nor mine. I think the "owners" have every right to stress whatever they deem fit and whatever they want. It belongs to them! They created it!
For the record, no one justifies any actions of the ban and no one agree with the ban. I have not read one post in the Forum where someone rejoices and agrees with the ban.
What you apparently do not like is that though I do not agree with the ban but I do not wish to comment on HHDL in any negative way.
I wish to let you know that when you continue as you have been, you are really THE ONE come across imposing your own views and wishes on the Forum and everyone in it. In fact, you appear as to be so attached to raising this same debate and your views time and time again. That, in itself would appear quite extreme to me, as an observer.
You went further by asking us to question our values - what gives you the right? What do you know about the things me or anyone in the Forum does beyond here to justify that kind of questioning? For all you know, people in the Forum may work very hard to make the Dharma grow wherever they are. More than you can ever imagine. So, please refrain from such remarks which you do not have absolute knowledge of.
Seriously, if you do not like it here because people like me do not play to your tunes and dance to your songs - then please find somewhere else which totally encourages and indulges in your kind of thinking. Perhaps you would be much happier there.
I stress again, just because I do not share your views does not make us any less caring and pro-active about Dharma, the Gelugpa Lineage, the cause of Tibet, Dorje Shugden and etc.
Those are only your views.
Please do not assume I am like this or like that or anyone of us here, for that matter.
You do not know me at all. So, the least you can do is do what everyone else have been doing - respecting the different views.
Thank you and have a good night.
Sincerely,
just another Forum participant/observer who appreciates this space
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I think the thing that has caused all this disharmony is the change in flavour of the forum since the early part of this year. People used to be able to say what they liked, there was no disharmony, sometimes some heated debates but no heavy handedness.
Can I ask what caused that change?
It seemed a lot of new people came to the forum sharing the same view and started to clamp down on the views of the people who had been active on the forum since the begining. This forum had people who practice Dorje Shugden and followed many different teachers. It seem most of the people who are now on the forum are all followers of the same teacher.
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Dear WisdomBeing, Helena and beggar,
I understand what you are all saying. My views are not welcome here because you don't want to entertain the idea that the Dalai Lama may be an ordinary being who is destroying the Buddhadharma for political purposes. You want to entertain the notion that somehow the Dalai Lama's actions are beneficial. I would suggest you need to carefully examine the evidence you think supports this view.
Helena, ANYONE has the right to ask you to question your views. You have the right to ask me to question mine; through questioning we can make progress. A closed mind is one that has already made up its mind and in that sense, is stuck, unless it is holding views based on valid reasons.
This forum should not be 'owned' by anyone. No one should have the right to say what someone can and cannot say here. What you are saying is 'if you don't want to play by our rules, you should leave'. I personally find this thread curious: why does it have to be said, again and again, 'we should not bash the Dalai Lama' when it's clear that almost everyone, except me, shares this view? For whose benefit is this 'discussion' being held? Am I, and those few who might share by views, being told (not too) subtly to shut up?
I think so.
Okay, enough has been said. Thanks to all and apologies if my views have upset you.
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Dear WisdomBeing, Helena and beggar,
I understand what you are all saying. My views are not welcome here because you don't want to entertain the idea that the Dalai Lama may be an ordinary being who is destroying the Buddhadharma for political purposes. You want to entertain the notion that somehow the Dalai Lama's actions are beneficial. I would suggest you need to carefully examine the evidence you think supports this view.
Helena, ANYONE has the right to ask you to question your views. You have the right to ask me to question mine; through questioning we can make progress. A closed mind is one that has already made up its mind and in that sense, is stuck, unless it is holding views based on valid reasons.
This forum should not be 'owned' by anyone. No one should have the right to say what someone can and cannot say here. What you are saying is 'if you don't want to play by our rules, you should leave'. I personally find this thread curious: why does it have to be said, again and again, 'we should not bash the Dalai Lama' when it's clear that almost everyone, except me, shares this view? For whose benefit is this 'discussion' being held? Am I, and those few who might share by views, being told (not too) subtly to shut up?
I think so.
Okay, enough has been said. Thanks to all and apologies if my views have upset you.
Lineageholder,
I just want to say that this forum is owned by someone. It's not public domain. Nothing is public domain on the internet, because someone will always have ownership over a website. I don't own this site. I don't pay anything towards the server rental, maintenance, salaries of staff if any. I don't pay the designer who must have spent a lot of time on this site. I don't give anything to this site at all except enjoy the privilege of being here. Yes - it is a privilege to be here because we are guests of the forum owners.
If I have a home which i say anyone can come in and make themselves at home, but please don't insult my father or any of my relatives and people come in, help themselves to drinks and snacks and then proceed to slag off my dad (whether he deserves it or not is even besides the point, it's my house), nobody would blame me if I were to tell the person to leave.
So i definitely think the owners of this site has every right to say what i can say or cannot say. This is their space, not mine. I used to go to the newbuddhist.com forum and they are very strict there too - the moderators don't even like me to bring up Dorje Shugden and I've been warned. I've been to other forums where they hurl abuse at Dorje Shugden practitioners. Thanks but no thanks. As I said - I really don't like conflict. So i don't go to those forums anymore and I don't go to newbuddhist anymore, because I don't like the rules there. I don't feel forced to leave those places. I just find them incompatible with me so i leave - i don't ask them to change their rules to suit me.
So if you like it here, then stay and share information but follow the rules. If you don't like the rules, then do find somewhere where you will be happy, like i did.
As you said, enough said.
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Dear Lineageholder,
I am sorry but I do not think you really do understand what I am saying, though I can't speak for the rest.
I have been following this Forum and reading what you and other people have written.
If by your definition, a closed mind is one which is already made up its mind and is stuck, then that is what you have displayed clearly in your posts because you 'harp' on the very same things despite being presented with different angles and views. So, it shows me that whether having valid reasons or not, these are subjective to the closed mind. And you still show no interest to consider other views, nor respect them.
While others in the Forum may share different views from you, they have not asked you to think the same but merely asked you to respect their views and the moderators have asked you to respect their rules. No one ever said that your views are not welcome here - only your insistence that you are right and they are all wrong.
Again, please note it is your refusal to adhere to the rules of this Forum and your refusal to respect others' views that has been highlighted here, repeatedly.
I have carefully examined the evidence and facts before me to come to this conclusion as you have repeatedly acted in the same manner. I have chosen to write and speak up this time because I believe someone should, other than the moderators who have been doing their job very well.
Now, let me go on record to say - I did not originally harbour warm feelings towards HHDL before coming into this Forum. I had my own ideas and views about the ban and HHDL. And yes, at that time, I was really 'stuck' on them, due to my own limited understanding. I judged according to what I knew then. But even when I did not share great feelings about HHDL, I did not encourage others to do the same. I did not insist that others who held HHDL in high regard that they were wrong and they should seriously re-examine their mind.
But since coming into the Forum, I read the wealth of information presented and looked at the different angles and reasoning given, I decided to be open and consider the possibilities. I decided to get un-stuck.
With more information, I learn more and see more. I do not harbour any ill feelings towards HHDL anymore. And I much prefer that because it frees me from any negative thoughts/feelings, and stops me from further committing any negative karma by harbouring such negative thoughts/feelings. I certainly much prefer this.
Personally, I know many friends who have changed for the better because of HHDL and his teachings. They have become better people and treat everyone around them better because of HHDL's teachings. These are real. Hence, HHDL has done a lot of good as many people beyond my circle of friends have become better individuals because of him. This, I have to give credit where credit is due.
After deeper reflection, I did not want to harass anyone who believes in HHDL just because of I may not have felt the same way. I am not going to hurt their mind and devotion to their Guru who is HHDL because I do not think as they do. Why should I do that and ruin everything that has been going great for them? They are already connected to the Dharma and have begun to study the Lamrim, etc - all because of their belief in HHDL. They are many people who have become better people because of HHDL and I should not deny that. If without HHDL, many of these people would have not come into the Dharma in the first place. And I much prefer that they have Dharma and continue to become better. My conscience would not allow me to ruin their faith in their own Guru. They might end up not believing in Dharma and Buddha at all if they end up thinking that they can't even believe in HHDL anymore. Why would I want to do that? I really do not want to hurt anyone's connection with their Guru and Dharma. I am more afraid of the bad karma I would incur from doing such things.
I think this is where we are explicitly different.
It is more important for me that people continue to study the Dharma and become better people than to agree with me that I am right. Because the benefits they have received are real and they are walking proofs of it. So, again, I am not going to deny that just because I don't feel the same way. In fact, I rejoice for them that they have become better. As long as people still believe in the Three Jewels, study the Dharma and continue in their practice - that is the best benefit of all. And I do rejoice for that.
Allow me to reiterate, after coming into this Forum - my mind opened up even more. Whatever possibilities and angles that I had not considered before, or have allowed myself to consider before, I could now do it. And I much prefer holding views that are not limited and not being stuck on them. I like views that allow me to appreciate the good in people and respect their opinions, no matter how different they are.
The thread is not different nor is it curious to have the subject matter repeated again. Please ask yourself, why it had to be repeated. WHY?
Obviously, some people are still not listening and refusing to understand or even accept.
The information in this Forum is public, but not the website or Forum - because someone or a team has invested time, money and effort in it. They do own it.
As we are guests, we abide by the "rules of their house." Unless of course, you do not wish to come back into this house. Like WB pointed out very clearly in her analogy.
I am very grateful to this Forum and website because it has given me a lot valuable information and it has opened my mind from being stuck and very limited. I am certainly much happier now that I do not hold all ill feelings/thoughts towards anyone, because that would only make me unhappy and aid me in committing more bad karma.
In fact, through this Forum, I find myself more interested and focused on doing more good deeds to spread the Dharma via Dorje Shugden. And I love that I can do more.
So, take it as what you will - which I am sure you will. Whether your mind is closed and stuck - only you will know. There is no need to stress again and again because all of us in the Forum all can read for ourselves, and make up our own minds.
I take the initiative to write this because I have benefited from this Forum. Hence, I do not wish to stay silent and show my ingratitude.
Thank you and good day.
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I'm just a lurker but I've been I've been reading and relying on this forum for 3 years now through, confusion, protests and many clarifications. When I started reading I was made uncomfortable by a few harsh voices (critics of the Dalai Lama) but in general I felt a strong sense of trust in a genuinely open dialog. The hot heads were being challenged by some very cool, considerate voices and all seemed to gather in one place and be raised up by the experience. And I realized some of the hotheads had some very sweet hearts. It was like an agora, a true public meeting place, not a party at the house of one particular family protecting that family's interests. What I feel one experiences here over the last several months is an achingly repetitive pablum, as insistent and relentless in practice as it is sweet-toned and good-intentioned in style. Its like one endless-loop of a pacifying siddhi party where all the best-intentioned guests have finally exited the room before being nearly suffocated. Finally, in my heart of hearts, I feel there is an absence of both passion and compassion in this pacifying pablum. There's a lot of talk about worldly compassion, like what have you done for the dharma lately; what have you actually done for others lately. For some this belies a lack of active engagement with the radical nature of buddha's teaching. All 84,000 teachings point to a process of intense inner questioning which you are able to share with others, ripen from and gain a state from which to ultimately lead people away from their own suffering's sources.
Lately I feel like I've finally been woken up by Buddha's words. Suffering is the nature of samsara and we're experiencing it all the time on a sub- and often not-so-sub-level. From here we can practice joy in knowing the way to go away from this and finding the clarity to show others. I'm experiencing a joyful sublime to this process and finally beginning to feel very wide-open-eyed. Its messy, not carefully manicured. Its not the stuff of new age chat room. Just look at the pictures on the wall. They reflect all that and show the way to redirect and transform. This whole episode over DS practice is indeed a teaching. But its a dialectical teaching with an invitation to engage, not turn the wheel of mild equivocation relentlessly.
All the independent voices seem to have left the party. And now I'm going to join them.
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Dear Lamrhyme,
Just a quick note before I dash off for my day - thank you for sharing your view and I'm glad you agree that there was some discomfort by the critics of the Dalai Lama. I also felt that way. I'm sorry that the critics could not express their critical view without being personal about it. As you have probably read, I think 100% of the forum participants do not agree with the Dalai Lama's ban, but it is how we express our views which I think was the contention. Until the moderators began to be more firm with moderating with the house rules, I personally felt put down by some of the 'hot heads' when I did not agree with them. My issue was that as adults, we should be able to discuss without being personally attacked, but perhaps their passion overruled their heads.
They may be best intentioned - aren't we all - but i think that as this is a Dharma forum, we should follow Dharmic conduct and I think that the moderators have done a good job to keep the forum a safe and sacred space to learn from each other and discuss without fear or favour.
I'm still quite a Dharma newbie so I am not sure what "active engagement with the radical nature of buddha's teaching" means. All I know is that this forum consistently posts up new things to read and contemplate and discuss... in a non-aggressive manner, which to me, is what Dharma is about.
I wish you hadn't just lurked over the past three years but joined in the discussions as I am sure you would be able to contribute well. However, as you are leaving, I wish you all the best in your Dharma journey and may our Protector Dorje Shugden bring you whatever spiritual wishes you desire.
Peace,
Kate
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Dear Lamrhyme
The people behind this website has put in much effort to provide all the resources to make our Protector known to many. Instead of rejoicing, we receive a few words such as yours which benefits no one. This site welcomes contribution. Just with everything else, there are rules and we request that all participants adhere to it.
thanks
DSfriend
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Dear Lamrhyme,
This forum is what WE make it. Maybe you could try to add to the discussion. If you feel there is something lacking here, maybe you could help us all fill that gap. I agree, sometimes we need a bit more to chew on. It is always helpful to me to discuss things from various perspectives. Please consider adding some more of your thoughts into all of this.
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I guess sometimes there is just no way of pleasing everybody - the moderators of the forum (and the website admin too, I'm sure) have tried to create an environment that promotes a positive view of BOTH the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden. As it has always been clearly stated in this forum, we discourage anyone from "bashing" any Lama, no matter whether they are pro or against Dorje Shugden, simply because that is what the teachings advise us.
No one here promotes the Dalai Lama's ban of Dorje Shugden's practice nor is happy about it - but there are ways to discuss it without being offensive or without bashing any Lamas. I think is where the disagreements had come about - the website stood very firmly on the grounds of NOT bashing or disparaging anyone (this included strong language and views against the Dalai Lama, for example) whereas some users felt that they needed to keep speaking strongly against the Dalai Lama.
I have said this many times before - it is not that the website and forum does not encourage discussion and debate on either side. The range of videos and articles on this website that present MANY sides of the story are testament to that. What we do not agree with are harsh language, sarcasm and damaging, hurtful views against someone who is a teacher, guru and guide to many millions in the world. If you cannot tolerate those kinds of guidelines that we have set forth in this forum, then we gently urge you to please go somewhere else to debate.
I agree strongly with what Tenzin Sungrab has also said - the forum is what we make it, so add your voice to it also, but please respect the website, the many thousands of hours which have been put into it and the corresponding guidelines. Make this a safe and conducive place for people to learn.
humbly, beggar
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I'm just a lurker but I've been I've been reading and relying on this forum for 3 years now through, confusion, protests and many clarifications. When I started reading I was made uncomfortable by a few harsh voices (critics of the Dalai Lama) but in general I felt a strong sense of trust in a genuinely open dialog. The hot heads were being challenged by some very cool, considerate voices and all seemed to gather in one place and be raised up by the experience. And I realized some of the hotheads had some very sweet hearts. It was like an agora, a true public meeting place, not a party at the house of one particular family protecting that family's interests. What I feel one experiences here over the last several months is an achingly repetitive pablum, as insistent and relentless in practice as it is sweet-toned and good-intentioned in style. Its like one endless-loop of a pacifying siddhi party where all the best-intentioned guests have finally exited the room before being nearly suffocated. Finally, in my heart of hearts, I feel there is an absence of both passion and compassion in this pacifying pablum. There's a lot of talk about worldly compassion, like what have you done for the dharma lately; what have you actually done for others lately. For some this belies a lack of active engagement with the radical nature of buddha's teaching. All 84,000 teachings point to a process of intense inner questioning which you are able to share with others, ripen from and gain a state from which to ultimately lead people away from their own suffering's sources.
Lately I feel like I've finally been woken up by Buddha's words. Suffering is the nature of samsara and we're experiencing it all the time on a sub- and often not-so-sub-level. From here we can practice joy in knowing the way to go away from this and finding the clarity to show others. I'm experiencing a joyful sublime to this process and finally beginning to feel very wide-open-eyed. Its messy, not carefully manicured. Its not the stuff of new age chat room. Just look at the pictures on the wall. They reflect all that and show the way to redirect and transform. This whole episode over DS practice is indeed a teaching. But its a dialectical teaching with an invitation to engage, not turn the wheel of mild equivocation relentlessly.
All the independent voices seem to have left the party. And now I'm going to join them.
This person writes very eloquently. But if you read carefully, what has he/she contributed to this forum? He/she has read and 'lurked' on this forum enjoying it's benefits for three years. The message he/she posts is negative. I feel sorry for such eloquence that ends in negativity.
Anyways, I feel it is one of those people that have harshly criticized the Dalai Lama in the past few months and when some of us debated back, they couldn't take the logic and the heat. So they upped and left. This is them writing under another name to show they have some kind of support in numbers? What dharma is that? Sorry to speak this way, but that is how I see it.
They just don't leave quietly like practitioners, but make grand sweeping statements to LET US KNOW THEY ARE LEAVING. Who does it hurt they are not participating? The more voices that speak in unison for DORJE SHUGDEN, THE MORE POWERFUL. So who does it hurt? It hurts for example all the brave monks that have seperated in Shar Gaden and Serpom. Disunity hurts.
If you have disagreemants about a debate on this forum and you leave, you lose. You make other brave practitioners lose. You may disagree on one issue, but there's agreemant on so many other issues, so why focus on the one.
The revelation of Buddha's teachings is that everything is a teaching, so why take anything to heart? Let go and continue.
Thaimonk
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I guess sometimes there is just no way of pleasing everybody - the moderators of the forum (and the website admin too, I'm sure) have tried to create an environment that promotes a positive view of BOTH the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden. As it has always been clearly stated in this forum, we discourage anyone from "bashing" any Lama, no matter whether they are pro or against Dorje Shugden, simply because that is what the teachings advise us.
No one here promotes the Dalai Lama's ban of Dorje Shugden's practice nor is happy about it - but there are ways to discuss it without being offensive or without bashing any Lamas. I think is where the disagreements had come about - the website stood very firmly on the grounds of NOT bashing or disparaging anyone (this included strong language and views against the Dalai Lama, for example) whereas some users felt that they needed to keep speaking strongly against the Dalai Lama.
I have said this many times before - it is not that the website and forum does not encourage discussion and debate on either side. The range of videos and articles on this website that present MANY sides of the story are testament to that. What we do not agree with are harsh language, sarcasm and damaging, hurtful views against someone who is a teacher, guru and guide to many millions in the world. If you cannot tolerate those kinds of guidelines that we have set forth in this forum, then we gently urge you to please go somewhere else to debate.
I agree strongly with what Tenzin Sungrab has also said - the forum is what we make it, so add your voice to it also, but please respect the website, the many thousands of hours which have been put into it and the corresponding guidelines. Make this a safe and conducive place for people to learn.
humbly, beggar
Excellent thoughts. Excellent expression. I agree with EVERY single word.
Thank you Beggar.
TK
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Just found these words of Gonsar Rinpoche:
"I have spent many years in exile and have a great reverence for His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, but now he is abusing our freedom by banning Shugden. It makes me very sad... We are not doing anything wrong; we are just keeping on with this practice, which we have received through great masters. I respect His Holiness very much, hoping he may change his opinion... I cannot accept this ban on Shugden. If I accept this, then I accept that all of my masters, wise great masters, are wrong. If I accept that they are demon worshippers, then the teachings are wrong, everything we believe in is wrong. That is not possible"
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Just found these words of Gonsar Rinpoche:
"I have spent many years in exile and have a great reverence for His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, but now he is abusing our freedom by banning Shugden. It makes me very sad... We are not doing anything wrong; we are just keeping on with this practice, which we have received through great masters. I respect His Holiness very much, hoping he may change his opinion... I cannot accept this ban on Shugden. If I accept this, then I accept that all of my masters, wise great masters, are wrong. If I accept that they are demon worshippers, then the teachings are wrong, everything we believe in is wrong. That is not possible"
TS: Thanks for sharing this. Do you mind sharing where you found this quote?
Since learning about all the politics within this issue (I dislike this word "issue" but for lack of a better word..), I have been always intrigued, humbled and somewhat encouraged by the way in which the Lamas talk about the ban and about the dalai lama. This quote by Gonsar Rinpoche is a case in point.
In no way does he use any harsh criticism or words against the Dalai Lama; nor does he refer negatively in any way to DS practitioners. He, like many lamas I have also read, talk about this issue in a very dharmic way, which is logical. They lay the cards on the table - the truth of the bind that so many practitioners are caught in. This is very eloquent:
I respect His Holiness very much, hoping he may change his opinion... I cannot accept this ban on Shugden. If I accept this, then I accept that all of my masters, wise great masters, are wrong. If I accept that they are demon worshippers, then the teachings are wrong, everything we believe in is wrong. That is not possible
It is encouraging to me to read this, because it shows clearly: so many of the lamas are not reacting to or upset about the dalai lama in the way many (lay) people around the world seem to be. They maintain their respect towards him and to many of them, he remains their Guru. When they express their unhappiness / frustration, it is directly about the ban, and not about the Dalai Lama. In the face of difficulty, they show us always their steady respect of the Lamas and reveal the falsity of the ban by logic and Dharma, not by rhetoric, criticism or accusation.
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Dear Beggar,
I agree with you completely. It is all about the tone of the post, which is a point many forum participants have expressed previously. Gonsar Rinpoche's tone is respectful and regretful of the ban. It is not a personal attack of HH the Dalai Lama, it is not calling him names, it is not rude nor crass. I guess in this case and other cases like HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, we can really see the difference between the attitudes of a High Lama and lay people.
No doubt those who disagree will want to know the source of this quote of Gonsar Rinpoche, so i hope Tenzin Sungrab can provide a source for us asap.
Looking forward to hearing more about this quote...
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The quote was found in this article from info-buddhism.com
http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_controversy.html#Notes-DS (http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_controversy.html#Notes-DS)
The original quote comes from the article for NOW magazine, On the Outs wIth the Dalai Lama, By John Goetz
I am still digging to see what else I can find out about this quote.
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Dear Beggar,
I agree with you completely. It is all about the tone of the post, which is a point many forum participants have expressed previously. Gonsar Rinpoche's tone is respectful and regretful of the ban. It is not a personal attack of HH the Dalai Lama, it is not calling him names, it is not rude nor crass. I guess in this case and other cases like HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, we can really see the difference between the attitudes of a High Lama and lay people.
No doubt those who disagree will want to know the source of this quote of Gonsar Rinpoche, so i hope Tenzin Sungrab can provide a source for us asap.
Looking forward to hearing more about this quote...
His Eminence Gonsar Rinpoche really shows himself to be a true Gelug Practitioner of the highest order. He never attacks HH Dalai Lama. He expresses he cannot go along with the ban and he will not stop his practice. That is how I feel also.
Attacks on HH the Dalai Lama is not necessary. Our karma is more important than attacking Dalai Lama or calling him by abusive names. Whether we like Dalai Lama or not, he is a sentient being and we should forgive him and move on. His reign is short lived now. His ban will dissolve with his reign. Impermanence is on our side.
TK
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Dear Beggar,
I agree with you completely. It is all about the tone of the post, which is a point many forum participants have expressed previously. Gonsar Rinpoche's tone is respectful and regretful of the ban. It is not a personal attack of HH the Dalai Lama, it is not calling him names, it is not rude nor crass. I guess in this case and other cases like HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, we can really see the difference between the attitudes of a High Lama and lay people.
No doubt those who disagree will want to know the source of this quote of Gonsar Rinpoche, so i hope Tenzin Sungrab can provide a source for us asap.
Looking forward to hearing more about this quote...
His Eminence Gonsar Rinpoche really shows himself to be a true Gelug Practitioner of the highest order. He never attacks HH Dalai Lama. He expresses he cannot go along with the ban and he will not stop his practice. That is how I feel also.
Attacks on HH the Dalai Lama is not necessary. Our karma is more important than attacking Dalai Lama or calling him by abusive names. Whether we like Dalai Lama or not, he is a sentient being and we should forgive him and move on. His reign is short lived now. His ban will dissolve with his reign. Impermanence is on our side.
TK
Yes, whether we are buddhist practitioners or DS practitioners, there is REALLY NO NEED to criticise or make constant attacks on the Dalai Lama, like what TK said.
In fact, this is the best time for us to practise tolerence, forgivness, acceptance, compassion, it is not easy, I admit too, but isn't it the best time to really put our buddhist values to real practice??
I believe anyone who has a clear conscience gets the picture, so it is the BEST TIME for us to learn to "Let Go" and "Move On" as well.
Put our energy into something more constructive is always better than focusing on creating more negativities.
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Yes, let's stop focusing on the Dalai Lama, even though he is the source of the problem ;D
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It is all about the tone of the post, which is a point many forum participants have expressed previously. Gonsar Rinpoche's tone is respectful and regretful of the ban. It is not a personal attack of HH the Dalai Lama, it is not calling him names, it is not rude nor crass. I guess in this case and other cases like HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, we can really see the difference between the attitudes of a High Lama and lay people.
I totally agree with you here, WB and Beggar.
I believe we can retain respect,compassion and actively practise the 6 Paramitas for a person eventhough our views could differ.
After all, isn't this why the Buddha taught the Dharma in the first place?
We learn all these skills and put them in practice while we are in samsara and are caught in the drama of samsara's nature.
How we all react and respond to the ban or anything remotely challenging in our lives is the real reflection of how much we are practising what we have learnt and what we do understand of our Guru's teachings.
I am very glad to see/read that there are other people who are non-Shugden practitioners who can act with Dharma, as shared in the post below -
Source: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=922.45;num_replies=60#top
the shugden dispute
I AM NOT A DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTIONER BUT : We are all swimmers in the ocean of samsara ! This dispute is sadly dividing the Tibetan Buddhist community . I pray that all differences may be solved soon by the blessing of the Three Jewels I hope that all Tibetan buddhists will find unity again I pray for the Long Life of HH the Dalai Lama ! I pray for the Long Life of the Guru's ! If you are having a problem with this affair please pray to your Guru ! Never forsake your Guru Follow your own conscience Practice equanimity,wisdom and compassion. This article is a good example of wellinformed inside-journalism.May it help you. Jampa Gyatso
Then the writer proceeds to post an article. Interesting enough, among other things, the article also shares the quote from Gonsar Rinpoche.
So, the writer presented all sides of the story.
I think no matter what happens - we can always choose to act, think and speak with Dharma or not.
If we truly believe that while in samsara, everything and every day is a teaching - then, the best things we can all do is to really learn and PRACTISE what we learn.
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Yes, let's stop focusing on the Dalai Lama, even though he is the source of the problem ;D
Yes Lineageholder, if we can all start from ourselves and change our thoughts into positive actions yielding positive results and energy, we will be happier too. We can then bring more "positive" influence to others.
Way to go!
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Our inner samsara is the source of all the problems. Not Dalai Lama.
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Yes, let's stop focusing on the Dalai Lama, even though he is the source of the problem ;D
Actually, YES, let's stop focusing on the Dalai Lama. This website is about Dorje Shugden, his practice and a place for practitioners to gather, learn, share resources. It isn't a Dalai Lama website, either pro or anti.
This website isn't about looking at "problems" and focusing on that. It is about looking at positive solutions and looking at how we can bring some benefit to others via this holy practice, instead of just looking at what is wrong all the time and harping upon that alone.
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Yes, let's stop focusing on the Dalai Lama, even though he is the source of the problem ;D
Let's focus on ourselves. We are the source of the problem not the Dalai Lama. Due to our deluded mind, we perceived things wrongly
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Yes, let's stop focusing on the Dalai Lama, even though he is the source of the problem ;D
Let's focus on ourselves. We are the source of the problem not the Dalai Lama. Due to our deluded mind, we perceived things wrongly
There are inner and outer problems. Yes, it's right to deal with the inner problems of delusions by changing our mind, but sometimes you need to take action to solve an outer problem. For example, if your roof is leaking, the solution is not to 'focus on yourself', the solution is to take action to solve the outer problem by fixing your roof!
It's the same with the Dorje Shugden issue. The sole cause of the outer problem is the Dalai Lama. The inner problem is reacting with intolerance, anger and so forth. The solution to our inner problem is patience. However, patience does not mean passivity because this does not solve the problem of the ban, so outer actions has to be taken - attempting to dialogue and then, if this is ignored, to bring the issue to the attention of the public through demonstrations and so forth so that there is an accumulation of pressure to cause a change. It's also possible to pray to change to situation, but some kind of action has to be taken. to solve the outer problem which the Dalai Lama has caused.
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Here we go again. It's let's blame Dalai Lama and hate him again.
Bad read for new people to this thread.
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Here we go again. It's let's blame Dalai Lama and hate him again.
Bad read for new people to this thread.
Not hate, after all he's my Mother, but you have to accept that he's responsible for the 'Dorje Shugden problem'. Who else banned the practice and encouraged the Abbots of the monasteries to expel Shugden practitioners? Not Santa Claus ;D
Why can't you accept this simple truth?
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Here we go again. It's let's blame Dalai Lama and hate him again.
Bad read for new people to this thread.
Not hate, after all he's my Mother, but you have to accept that he's responsible for the 'Dorje Shugden problem'. Who else banned the practice and encouraged the Abbots of the monasteries to expel Shugden practitioners? Not Santa Claus ;D
Why can't you accept this simple truth?
No one denies Dalai Lama started the ban. What is unacceptable, un-Buddhist, against the spirit of our discussion is the constant derogatory writing against Dalai Lama or anyone. You will not achieve our aim in that manner.
Move on. Write on the hundreds of other pertinent information to enlighten others about our protector.
Try another method. By talking about how the unexcelled qualities, pure lineage and efficacious practice of our Protector, it will slowly but surely make the ban die a slow death. Then all the reasoning given for the ban will seem illogical and unfounded. It is much better for an 'outsider' to read about the qualites of Dorje Shugden to show his greatness than post after tiring post of bantering against the Dalai Lama.
No one is in denial of what Dalai Lama has done, but the approach to make it known is not to be overt, rude, derogatory in any manner against him or any lamas. This is not apologetic towards the Dalai Lama but a gentle skilful and Buddhist manner to get the truth out. That is our approach and why we invested so much or the REASON we created this website.
Mana
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Constant negative talk about the Dalai Lama and his activities will create awareness of the current situation, but how much negativity would have been accrued in the process? How much will people's faith in the institution of Tibetan Buddhism be shaken, and how much unseen damage done?
I prefer the positive reinforcement way. When we promote Dorje Shugden and the benefits of his practice, it will have the power of truth behind it. More people will be convinced about our protector and his lineage. The power of reason and logic will overcome propaganda. People are not blind, as long as they understand the facts. We do not need to speak negatively about others.
And as they experience the effects of his practice for themselves, the ban will die a slow death, as mana says. Let's be Buddhist about it. If we are true followers of Dorje Shugden, then we should heed his advice and act in accordance with his lead. Embody the qualities of this Protector that we all claim to be followers of.
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I am a HUGE fan of this website. Some of the views on it does not match with mine. But so what? Where else better than here is there to go to? Why find differences in a few issues, why not find commonality with the huge similarities.
Anyway if I don't like it, I DON'T HAVE TO COME HERE, but where can I go? I am addicted to this site.
I sure can't set up something like this with the time, energy, money, knowledge, research, thousands of hours necessary.
So I am here to stay and my respect for this site grows all the time.
Mehtra
San Diego
(source: post from guestbook)
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Constant negative talk about the Dalai Lama and his activities will create awareness of the current situation, but how much negativity would have been accrued in the process? How much will people's faith in the institution of Tibetan Buddhism be shaken, and how much unseen damage done?
It's not negative to state the facts. How is that negative? Anything else is denial, surely? I understand the problem of the Dalai Lama's actions for Tibetan Buddhism, but Tibetan Buddhism is not the Dalai Lama. I think this is the problem - the Dalai Lama is seen to be far more important for Tibetan Buddhism than he actually is. In the public consciousness, he is the head of Tibetan Buddhism (and even world Buddhism!) because of his public profile and popularity. This is why his speech has such power.
I prefer the positive reinforcement way. When we promote Dorje Shugden and the benefits of his practice, it will have the power of truth behind it. More people will be convinced about our protector and his lineage. The power of reason and logic will overcome propaganda. People are not blind, as long as they understand the facts. We do not need to speak negatively about others.
What's necessary is to reveal contradictions in the Dalai Lama's words and actions, because otherwise the power of his speech will overwhelm any attempts to speak positively about Dorje Shugden. This is not criticising, it's simply telling the truth. We do have the power of truth on our side, which means that the Dalai Lama has not, but he has the power of celebrity which means that most people believe him and not us when it comes down to it. On web forums I've stated the reasons why the Dalai Lama's view is illogical, but people simply refuse to listen and prefer to accept the view of the most famous Buddhist in the world. Never underestimate the power of celebrity, especially these days when the media is just accepted and a lot of people don't think for themselves.
And as they experience the effects of his practice for themselves, the ban will die a slow death, as mana says. Let's be Buddhist about it. If we are true followers of Dorje Shugden, then we should heed his advice and act in accordance with his lead. Embody the qualities of this Protector that we all claim to be followers of.
I don't think this will happen because, if people believe the Dalai Lama (and most people will), they will not engage in the practice. They won't even speak to someone who practises it without a great deal of pre-formed judgement and animosity. This is the result of the schism that has been formed by the Dalai Lama's actions. The only chance is that, after the Dalai Lama's passing, whoever takes over his position will not promote the ban and let it die.
Anyway, I think it's pointless to pursue this discussion further as we have a fundamental disagreement about what's going to tip the balance in this sad situation, but I think the constant 'don't bash the Dalai Lama' exclamations on this forum - to the point of even refusing to state that he's caused this situation - is a denial of the truth which is every bit as harmful as all the negative propaganda against our Protector. Why? Because letting the Dalai Lama 'off the hook' accomplishes the purpose of the ban by denying the real situation.
Peace out :-*
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Here we go again. It's let's blame Dalai Lama and hate him again.
Bad read for new people to this thread.
Not hate, after all he's my Mother, but you have to accept that he's responsible for the 'Dorje Shugden problem'. Who else banned the practice and encouraged the Abbots of the monasteries to expel Shugden practitioners? Not Santa Claus ;D
Why can't you accept this simple truth?
Lineageholder
This is OLD and have been addressed many times over. Do not pursue this view on this site further.
Dorjeshugden.com is NOT A HATE site or a platform for people to vent. What is so difficult to understand?
This site acknowledges the existing problem and thus, focuses and working very hard to clear wrong views about the Protector. Much work has been done to educate people. Why channel our strengths to blame? Turn it to contribute positively.
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Whether we like to deny it or like it or not - HH the Dalai Lama has put in real TIME AND EFFORT in his spiritual 'education and pursuits'.
His ability to command a packed auditorium or room, to have the star power or celebrity status is all due to HIS efforts dedicated to spirituality through the years. Hence, yes, HE has earned that credibility.
Needless to say, HHDL has helped many people and celebrity stars turned to Dharma and even propelled Tibetan Buddhism into the global stage.
So, I think it is very safe to say that HHDL has done a great deal for Buddhism and people around the world.
All of us in here are not here by mistake. We are either brought here because of the Ban, or because we are curious of the Ban.
I tell you what is a fact and it has been stated here so many times and yet some people just refuse to understand, let alone accept -
We can dislike the ban but not HHDL. We can respect HHDL but not the Ban.
We can still view HHDL as the Buddha of Compassion, but view that the Ban is causing many great suffering.
The Buddha does not cause suffering. But the nature of samsara can cause mass destruction. Why? Because it is again the nature of samsara in people that causes them to think and act in a certain way. They will choose what they want to believe in and carry that out.
As many have posted here, we can choose better ways to deal with everything that is thrown to us because it is in our response and actions that will define how Dharmic we really are.
I personally liked what DS Friend posted in another thread. So, I shall repost it in here.
"Continue to contribute constructively and sincerely as so many have done through the years. Keep this space positive with wholesome discussions and contributions."
Have a great weekend, everyone.
I sincerely hope it is really "peace out" - for real.
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Here we go again. It's let's blame Dalai Lama and hate him again.
Bad read for new people to this thread.
Not hate, after all he's my Mother, but you have to accept that he's responsible for the 'Dorje Shugden problem'. Who else banned the practice and encouraged the Abbots of the monasteries to expel Shugden practitioners? Not Santa Claus ;D
Why can't you accept this simple truth?
Lineageholder
This is OLD and have been addressed many times over. Do not pursue this view on this site further.
Dorjeshugden.com is NOT A HATE site or a platform for people to vent. What is so difficult to understand?
This site acknowledges the existing problem and thus, focuses and working very hard to clear wrong views about the Protector. Much work has been done to educate people. Why channel our strengths to blame? Turn it to contribute positively.
So you're now censoring the correct view that the Dalai Lama has caused the Dorje Shugden problem?
You're in denial of the truth. Not good.
I'm disappointed to find that you would actively censor correct views. It's disconcertingly similar to what the Dalai Lama is doing against Dorje Shugden.
The problem is, the more you try to protect the Dalai Lama's reputation (which seems very political to me), the more I feel inclined to tell the truth. So let's have no more 'let's not bash the Dalai Lama' threads and we can maintain the status quo.
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Do you have any better things to post? Or do you know nothing else?
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Here we go again. It's let's blame Dalai Lama and hate him again.
Bad read for new people to this thread.
Not hate, after all he's my Mother, but you have to accept that he's responsible for the 'Dorje Shugden problem'. Who else banned the practice and encouraged the Abbots of the monasteries to expel Shugden practitioners? Not Santa Claus ;D
Why can't you accept this simple truth?
Lineageholder
This is OLD and have been addressed many times over. Do not pursue this view on this site further.
Dorjeshugden.com is NOT A HATE site or a platform for people to vent. What is so difficult to understand?
This site acknowledges the existing problem and thus, focuses and working very hard to clear wrong views about the Protector. Much work has been done to educate people. Why channel our strengths to blame? Turn it to contribute positively.
So you're now censoring the correct view that the Dalai Lama has caused the Dorje Shugden problem?
You're in denial of the truth. Not good.
I'm disappointed to find that you would actively censor correct views. It's disconcertingly similar to what the Dalai Lama is doing against Dorje Shugden.
The problem is, the more you try to protect the Dalai Lama's reputation (which seems very political to me), the more I feel inclined to tell the truth. So let's have no more 'let's not bash the Dalai Lama' threads and we can maintain the status quo.
We dorje shugden practitioners do not agree with Dalai Lama and his incorrect stance against Shugden. From whatever angle you examine this, it is wrong. But as responsible Buddhists who are holding perhaps the three sets of vows, we should not just bash the Dalai Lama. We may express clearly our feelings and with logic give evidence and that is fine.
This forum is for both pro and anti Shugden people because by debating we can come to a better understanding of eachother. War of words motivated from bias, anger and hate will go somewhat ahead but not fully ahead. Shugden practitioners are in a sort of minority although millions practice him, so the peaceful and logical way to make our case heard is the right way to go. After all, karma will follow all whether you like the Dalai Lama or not.
Therefore Dalai Lama bashing is NOT ENCOURAGED on this website at all. Our website is not aligned to any centre, hence it will not be a platform for the sole views of any centre's but can share views of all centres.
We can run our website any way we deem fit. If you are not happy with it, you can be inclined to tell your truth any where else you like.
Mana
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Very well said Mana.
Thank you .
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Mana, you are right, this website is not aligned to anyone and it has set out it's purpose in the mission statement from the very beginning.
I will abide by the mission statement. The multitudes of benefits I enjoy is tremendous. I thank you and all at the website for helping my practice so much and giving me a platform to share/learn.
TK
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In times of adversity and confusion, when one is so intent on complaining about the state of adversity and confusion but nothing else, it serves really no benefit or purpose.
WHY? Because we all ARE WELL AWARE of just how sad the situation is. I mean, just how merry and wonderful does anyone expect samsara to be anyways?
All these and everything that has come to pass IS SAMSARA.
But when one is more intent on doing something positive and more beneficial then something truly wonderful would happen.
I mean, if all the high Lamas truly held onto such pessimistic and negative thoughts, I don't think any of them would be able to escape the horror of what happened to their country or themselves. They may not even go on to further promote Tibetan Buddhism all around the world and make it bigger than Tibet.
If an entire Chinese Invasion can't even stop Buddhism from spreading, what more a ban by any other name?
When challenged, we can rise and even soar higher than ever before or just hang onto our misery and just sink with it.
This website has gone beyond rising - it comes out with information and content that truly promotes Dorje Shugden.
While the ban may have made Dorje Shugden front page news - websites like these will sustain that front page news and transcend them into valuable information that educates everyone - regardless of the ban.
What I love about this website and monasteries like Shar Gaden and Serpom - it shouts the spirit of positive determination. Unstoppable. Just like the Supreme Protector. Unstoppable.
Now, we can lend our voices and efforts to do the same so that everyone's effort is united for the same cause - clarify the misunderstanding and spread the Protector's Practice.
When there is any conflict or misunderstandings, even a ban, there lies an opportunity to clarify and correct it - NOT BASH IT.
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I thought we were past this issue already and I'm surprised that the moderator has to still repeat the same mantra to forum participants who will not abide by the rules of this forum.
Thank you Mana for again stepping in to remind the forum of the Buddhist principles we should all abide by. I very much like the stance of this website that no Lama should be criticised. It is very much in line with what i think Dharma is about. And as Gonsar Rinpoche has eloquently stated, he does not agree with the ban but yet he does not bash the Dalai Lama. And that kind of attitude is what we should all follow.
There are plenty of other forums I have come across where there is plenty of Dalai Lama bashing going on. I'm so glad this forum is not one of them. Perhaps those who cannot restrain themselves can go to those other forums because this kind of attitude is not welcome here.
Thank you moderators again!
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The stance of this website and forum have been very clear since the beginning which is that we do not agree with the ban nor many of what the dalai lama has said regarding this ban and about Dorje Shugden. The website does not agree with the many highly detrimental, damaging actions of the TGIE against DS practitioners.
We discuss and bring to attention the recent political situation and present all sides of the story on this website. I have said this many times before - just look at all the articles and information provided on the website. They show all sides of the stories, the suffering that people are experiencing by this ban, the vastly illogical arguments that the dalai lama has given. It also provides the more positive aspects of DS practice that proves, by its examples, the illogic and futility of all the "arguments" against Dorje Shugden. The website presents all the facts from all sides and allows the (intelligent) viewer to come to his own informed decision.
We do not deny that there is a ban, nor the effects of the ban. HOWEVER, the website also acknowledges that the Dalai Lama is a spiritual guide to many, and his teachers have also been a source of inspiration and solace to millions all over the world. There are also many in the world whose lives have also been positively affected by the Dalai Lama, for the better. So it's important we also be careful how we talk about the dalai lama - as with any lama. Simply repeating "he is the cause of the problem", "he is a liar", "he created problems" etc etc - well, how does that actually help the situation? It doesn't, and at the same time it can create many harmful doubts in practitioners all around the world, affecting their samaya and practice.
Instead of merely focusing on what the dalai lama has done or said - which by now is very clear to everyone - can we start to look at other more positive and tangible actions that we can do to support as many people as possible: i.e. both to provide support for DS practitioners as well as not to derail the Dharma practice or samaya of Dalai Lama's students.
The fact of the matter is that the "problem" is there, the ban exists. Simply just repeating that the Dalai Lama created it, the dalai lama is wrong, the dalai lama this and that hasn't proven to change the situation of the ban, sadly. It hasn't worked - the ban is still there, people are still suffering and in fact, people may even begin to dislike DS practitioners, seeing them as belligerent, rude, disrespectful to the lamas etc.
Apart from just repeating and repeating how bad and wrong the Dalai Lama is, think:
- How ELSE what are you doing about it to support and help fellow practitioners?
- Are you helping to sponsor DS monasteries around the world?
- Are you making materials available / providing information about the truth of Dorje Shugden's practice and Dharma so people can gain more understanding of the situation and therefore not follow the ban blindly?
This website has provided a wealth of information, from all angles on the subject - the good, the bad, the ugly, pro Dalai Lama, against Dalai Lama, the illogic of the ban, explanations about the truth behind DS practice, the logic of Dharma. It has provided EDUCATION for people to learn and really understand the situation from the ground up, and therefore, gain confidence and faith in their practice. Ask yourself: what have you done to contribute to this positive, empowering education in a way that doesn't just add to the huge amount of rhetoric that is already out there?
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Please don't make reading this forum like reading old newspaper.
Everyone knows it is the Dalai Lama who started the ban on DS practice. So move on and talk about something new, can we?????
Focusing always on the negativities yield only more negativities. Why don't we use the time and resources to focus on something positive, like learning about the DS practice, how to promote DS to the world, etc.
Can we just try to do this and respect the rules of this forum?
It is actually very easy to do this together.
Make this a constructive learning hub rather than a destructive battle ground.
Thank you.
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Please don't make reading this forum like reading old newspaper.
Everyone knows it is the Dalai Lama who started the ban on DS practice. So move on and talk about something new, can we?????
Focusing always on the negativities yield only more negativities. Why don't we use the time and resources to focus on something positive, like learning about the DS practice, how to promote DS to the world, etc.
Can we just try to do this and respect the rules of this forum?
It is actually very easy to do this together.
Make this a constructive learning hub rather than a destructive battle ground.
Thank you.
Excellent points. Thanks..
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If I was a sangha member ordained in '95,
taught at Varahi's place,
wore maroon,
followed GKG,
loquaciously spoke to others to be forgiving, loving, and to generate bodhicitta,
I wouldn't keep speaking against Dalai lama again and again,
It wouldn't suit my name as 'GOOD BIRTH',
or the state I wish to achieve which is that of an 'ARYA',
nor would it reflect my teacher well or do him justice
or suit my vows.
Instead I would speak of dharma, forgiving, love, embracing and be an example of Sangha who are 'above' the laity's confusion, anger, mental hostility. I would be a source of wisdom, knowledge and correct view but not rant on and on about the Dalai lama~~what would my students, other sangha, new members or my teacher think? Is that what my teacher, centre, and group are promoting and sharing to villify the Dalai Lama under the clock of pure lineal practice? I should think not. I would think GKG would never approve being the saint that he really is.
All are welcome on this forum from whatever your organization, views, lineage, opinions, sangha or not, but your hatred, anger and constant rampage against any lama are not welcomed. So leave that where you are when you enter this sacred space called www.dorjeshugden.com.
~~~~~~TM
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So you're now censoring the correct view that the Dalai Lama has caused the Dorje Shugden problem?
You're in denial of the truth. Not good.
I'm disappointed to find that you would actively censor correct views. It's disconcertingly similar to what the Dalai Lama is doing against Dorje Shugden.
The problem is, the more you try to protect the Dalai Lama's reputation (which seems very political to me), the more I feel inclined to tell the truth. So let's have no more 'let's not bash the Dalai Lama' threads and we can maintain the status quo.
Dear Lineageholder,
I am appalled at how you and a few people tried to convince the forum that we are in denial of the truth. Why can't it be that it is you who's in denial of the truth? How can you be sure that your perception is the truth of the reality?
I don't think the forum is trying to protect the Dalai Lama's reputation - I personally feel that website is very neutral, and does show the "bad side" of His Holiness being inconsistent; the various videos that showcase how Dalai Lama denied that people were being ostracised, Dalai Lama saying Kyabje Trijang Choktrol Rinpoche can practice Shugden etc.
I feel that the forum is being a real Buddhist forum - to not allow any bashing of any lama. The fact that this forum has accepted people from all background and centres is something that I respect. I know of many forums who kicked students from certain centres/ lineage out. Also, this forum is transparent and anyone can view it online. I like that but it also gives opportunity for people to misuse this.
Also, I have learnt that to blame others for any problem is not a solution. If you really consider yourself a real Shugden practitioners and want to do something about this problem and that it is your burden to bear, then do something more constructive. You are also making it difficult for the people who manage this website, for the mission statement already stated their stance/ principles and please do respect them for their belief because they are the people who PAID and MANAGED the website. What if the sponsors are students of His Holiness the Dalai Lama? I am sure if they are pissed off, they could just pull the plug of the funds, then what? Are you going to sponsor this website and its works?
Please if you really feel the need, go and complain at the Dalai Lama's website, and the Tibetan Government's website, perhaps that will draw their attention for real, instead of trying to bombard this website, which doesn't welcome bashing of Dalai Lama. It is not good for people to come to this definitive website of Dorje Shugden to find that Shugden practitioners are just Dalai Lama haters and are here to complain about the Dalai Lama. It doesn't help your/ ours and anybody's practice.
I agree with beggar, if you really do care about the Shugden problem (and not just use it as a platform to complain and bash His Holiness the Dalai Lama), please think about how you can make a difference. There are so many constructive ways to bring about positive changes instead of complaining and blaming.
Since you are passionate about writing, I hope you can help fight for Shugden practitioners rights by writing to these people here : http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=155.0
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So you're now censoring the correct view that the Dalai Lama has caused the Dorje Shugden problem?
You're in denial of the truth. Not good.
I'm disappointed to find that you would actively censor correct views. It's disconcertingly similar to what the Dalai Lama is doing against Dorje Shugden.
The problem is, the more you try to protect the Dalai Lama's reputation (which seems very political to me), the more I feel inclined to tell the truth. So let's have no more 'let's not bash the Dalai Lama' threads and we can maintain the status quo.
Since you are passionate about writing, I hope you can help fight for Shugden practitioners rights by writing to these people here : [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=155.0[/url]
Very good idea...great idea. Write to the Dalai Lama and his cronies directly. Please do. I pray for your success.
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This is a good one I got from Facebook. It's never too late! If this could happen, a open joining of two powerful forces, Dalai lama and King Shugden. It couldn't be surpassed.
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Ha ha ha ... very NICE Thaimonk!
It would be so awesome if we see this happening for real one day. I guess we all deep down inside wish this can happen soooon. Well there is already so much disharmony happening due to the lake of wisdom and skillful means, we really don't need to drag Dorje Shugden's name in to the mud by showing we are better because that would mean we are just the same as those Tibetans that condemn DS.
I love this forum as it presents a non-bias approach and not allowing ppl to create more negative karma from slandering Dalai Lama or any Lamas for that matter.
Of course all those here are here because they disagree with the Ban.
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"Monarchs who do what is against the practices
And senseless are mostly praised
By their citizens, for it is hard to know
What will or will not be tolerated.
Hence it is hard to know
What is useful or not (to say).
If useful but unpleasant words
Are hard to speak to anyone else,
What could I, a monk, say to you,
A King who is a lord of the great earth ?"
Nagarjuna
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"If He were a real King, He should protect the people. There may not be any King such as this, who needs to be protected by the people. Is it proper to disturb the peace and harmony by causing conflicts, unleashing terror and shooting demeanous words for the sake of politics ? Does this fulfill the wishes of our great masters? Try to analyze and contemplate on the teachings that had been taught in the Lamrim [stages of path], Lojong [training of mind] and other scriptural texts. Does devoting time in framing detrimental plots and committing degrading act, which seems no different from the act of attacking monasteries wielding swords and spears and draining the holy robes of the Buddha with blood, fulfill the wishes of our great masters?
The Mahayana teachings advocate an altruistic attitude of saving all. Thus why is it not possible for Him, who acclaims Himself to be a Mahayana, to stop worshipping these dubious politics which sustain only His own well-being and His own special pride ?
Statement by an ignorant person
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" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."
- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967
If we belong to the lineage of Trijang Rinpoche and/or our Guru's guru is Trijang Rinpoche, I think the above advice is appropriate to remember and follow.
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Of course.
And if we are dharma followers, I think Nagarjuna's advice is appropriate to remember and follow.
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And the statement of an ignorant person is not a bad way to help transform one's own mind
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I'd rather follow Trijang Rinpoche's advice. Sorry.
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I'd rather follow all those advices...
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At last, some sanity from Heartspoon instead of denial.
I was beginning to think the world had gone mad. ;D
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Nowadays, some of HH the Dalai Lama's followers have their own special pride. They claim that HH the Dalai Lama is so superior that they themselves should be considered superior.
HH the Dalai Lama, it is true, is very great, but it does not necessarily follow that one who claims to be among His followers is also great. The greatness of a master depends upon his realization. Blind allegiance to a master cannot make a practitioner superior.
It is common for them to look down on the practitioners of Dorje Shugden, thinking of them
as ignorant practitioners whose practice is not supported by right understanding of the Dharma's true meaning.
Some of them claim that the Dorje Shugden practitioners don't belong anymore to their Gelugpa tradition. Others, go as far as claiming that the Dorje Shugden practitioners are not to be considered as Dharma followers.
These are attitudes commonly found among Tibetan Buddhist monks and lay people.
They may be common attitudes, but they are not Buddhist attitudes.
One who despises another Buddhist school despises the Buddha. He impairs the transmission of the Dharma. The presence of the Dharma is jeopardized by such an attitude, and one becomes cut off from its transmission. This is so because one's refuge vows are based upon reliance on the Enlightened One, His Teachings, and the Holy Community. If one rejects Dharma one breaks one's refuge vow and thereby becomes cut off from the Dharma. By rejecting this Dharma that is the only door to happiness for beings and oneself, one accumulates inexhaustible sin.
Therefore, the Buddha taught that one should also not despise the Dharma of non-Buddhists for it is their source of happiness and benefit. One should not despise or harbour contempt for the doctrines of the Hindus, Christians, or other non-Buddhist religions because this attitude of attachment to one's own side while rejecting the possibility of differences is harmful to one's own spiritual career.
Those people who harbour voiced or unvoiced contempt for the teachings and the lineage of other schools incur great sin and terrible consequences. Worst of all, this attitude is as unnecessary as it is harmful.
One whose Dharma career is tainted by narrow-mindedness and attachment to one's own interests while rejecting those of others will never overcome the many obstacles to the attainment of wisdom or insight.
Sectarianism turns the pure Dharma into poison. Through it, one accumulates great sin. In this life one will be frustrated in one's own Dharma efforts. Upon death, one will fall into hell as swiftly as an arrow shot from a bow. These are the consequences of spending a lifetime in rejecting others' spiritual efforts on such narrow-minded grounds.
Therefore be mindful not to indulge in this attitude that brings so much unsought harm upon yourself. Do not create obstacles to your own Dharma. Strive instead for pure faith and maintain that faith in all manifestations of the Three Jewels, no matter whether they are represented in one school of Tibetan Buddhism or in another. Painstakingly nurture your refuge vows and pure faith and thereby grow truly in the Dharma.
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Nowadays, some of HH the Dalai Lama's followers have their own special pride. They claim that HH the Dalai Lama is so superior that they themselves should be considered superior.
HH the Dalai Lama, it is true, is very great, but it does not necessarily follow that one who claims to be among His followers is also great. The greatness of a master depends upon his realization. Blind allegiance to a master cannot make a practitioner superior.
It is common for them to look down on the practitioners of Dorje Shugden, thinking of them
as ignorant practitioners whose practice is not supported by right understanding of the Dharma's true meaning.
Some of them claim that the Dorje Shugden practitioners don't belong anymore to their Gelugpa tradition. Others, go as far as claiming that the Dorje Shugden practitioners are not to be considered as Dharma followers.
These are attitudes commonly found among Tibetan Buddhist monks and lay people.
They may be common attitudes, but they are not Buddhist attitudes.
One who despises another Buddhist school despises the Buddha. He impairs the transmission of the Dharma. The presence of the Dharma is jeopardized by such an attitude, and one becomes cut off from its transmission. This is so because one's refuge vows are based upon reliance on the Enlightened One, His Teachings, and the Holy Community. If one rejects Dharma one breaks one's refuge vow and thereby becomes cut off from the Dharma. By rejecting this Dharma that is the only door to happiness for beings and oneself, one accumulates inexhaustible sin.
Therefore, the Buddha taught that one should also not despise the Dharma of non-Buddhists for it is their source of happiness and benefit. One should not despise or harbour contempt for the doctrines of the Hindus, Christians, or other non-Buddhist religions because this attitude of attachment to one's own side while rejecting the possibility of differences is harmful to one's own spiritual career.
Those people who harbour voiced or unvoiced contempt for the teachings and the lineage of other schools incur great sin and terrible consequences. Worst of all, this attitude is as unnecessary as it is harmful.
One whose Dharma career is tainted by narrow-mindedness and attachment to one's own interests while rejecting those of others will never overcome the many obstacles to the attainment of wisdom or insight.
Sectarianism turns the pure Dharma into poison. Through it, one accumulates great sin. In this life one will be frustrated in one's own Dharma efforts. Upon death, one will fall into hell as swiftly as an arrow shot from a bow. These are the consequences of spending a lifetime in rejecting others' spiritual efforts on such narrow-minded grounds.
Therefore be mindful not to indulge in this attitude that brings so much unsought harm upon yourself. Do not create obstacles to your own Dharma. Strive instead for pure faith and maintain that faith in all manifestations of the Three Jewels, no matter whether they are represented in one school of Tibetan Buddhism or in another. Painstakingly nurture your refuge vows and pure faith and thereby grow truly in the Dharma.
What you say is very good. I fully agree. I come to the conclusion not to disparage any lama or lineage. If they others wish to disparage, then I do my practice and I do not need to disparage them. And that is what I have been saying from the beginning. I thank you for your dharmic agreement.
:)
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At last, some sanity from Heartspoon instead of denial.
I was beginning to think the world had gone mad. ;D
Always be a good sangha member wearing maroon tempered in speech even if it is on the forum.
:)
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What you say is very good. I fully agree. I come to the conclusion not to disparage any lama or lineage. If they others wish to disparage, then I do my practice and I do not need to disparage them. And that is what I have been saying from the beginning. I thank you for your dharmic agreement.
:)
Should useful words be uttered, even if they are unpleasant words to be heard ?
Why does Nagarjuna utter those unpleasant words to be heard by the King ?
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Your view and my view of what Dalai Lama is doing is different. So what? We cannot convince eachother of eachother's views. And that is ok. I choose Trijang Rinpoche's views re Dalai Lama.
How long do we discuss the differences? Do we have more similarities perhaps? Perhaps discuss those similarities in our practices would benefit?
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I am not a partisan of my root guru
I do not hate those who write many things
That are made to appear like a correct path
I hold as a teacher only Him
Whose word possesses reason
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Then you surpass all the teachers,
your wisdom is greater than theirs,
you have no klesas to overcome,
hence your view is supreme
Your view of those who possess reason or not
is unbiased since you have no karmas that bind,
therefore you need no teacher, as you hear
what you deem as reason and all others are not,
You need no guru, as only those that speak with your
reason you hold.
Hence the tantras become difficult as devotion is not necessary,
all the great masters who hold their gurus supreme, must rewrite the texts.
Ashvagosha, Atisha, Tsongkapa, Shantideva all would follow not a guru
to enlightenment and their devotions are wrong.
Woe to the student who need no guru, such is a time as predicted
in the kaliyuga.
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I fear you don't understand the meaning of the term "partisan" and the negative connotations that are attached to it...
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I am not a partisan of my root guru
I do not hate those who write many things
That are made to appear like a correct path
I hold as a teacher only Him
Whose word possesses reason
You are the one who wrote partisan.
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Of course, I am the one who wrote partisan...
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Then you surpass all the teachers,
your wisdom is greater than theirs,
you have no klesas to overcome,
hence your view is supreme
Your view of those who possess reason or not
is unbiased since you have no karmas that bind,
therefore you need no teacher, as you hear
what you deem as reason and all others are not,
You need no guru, as only those that speak with your
reason you hold.
Hence the tantras become difficult as devotion is not necessary,
all the great masters who hold their gurus supreme, must rewrite the texts.
Ashvagosha, Atisha, Tsongkapa, Shantideva all would follow not a guru
to enlightenment and their devotions are wrong.
Woe to the student who need no guru, such is a time as predicted
in the kaliyuga.
Very well composed. Thank you.
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I even wrote "I am not a partisan" :D
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We need to rely on a teacher. There's no way around it. Anyone who does not, should not engage in Tantras or Tibetan Form of Buddhism. To engage in the Tantras, guru devotion is supreme. I didn't make that up, that was Vajradhara's stipulation.
Other forms of Buddhism may seem independent of a teacher in the beginning, but not for the higher teachings.
Ashvagosha in his famous composition on the 50 VERSES of GURU DEVOTION makes it very clear the importance of our spiritual teacher. Even Je Tsongkapa's own works makes it very clear how important the guru is.
If we read Trijang Rinpoche's biography, his devotion to his guru was supreme and complete. He confessed sometimes he didn't understand why the guru would have commanded this or that and it was only very later he understood, but nevertheless, he followed respectfully.
These are good examples to follow.
TK
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I am not a partisan of my root guru
I do not hate those who write many things
That are made to appear like a correct path
I hold as a teacher only Him
Whose word possesses reason
I bow to the feet of the guru who has as his nature
The glorious nondual transcendental wisdom
And as such is the root cause of the attainment
Of the state or stage of Vajrasattva
If you say "I have faith" and you put down the one
who arises from the transcendental wisdom vajra
Then really you have no clear idea of who he is
You have no idea of the workings of Buddha,
Bodhisattvas and their different forms.
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Dear tk,
Thank you for your post, I agree with what you say and I fully understand. My devotions to my teacher has been for many years and I always listen to his wisdom. Sometimes through heavy klesa I have wrong views, but it is wonderful training to see my mind.
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"The disciple who has reverence for the guru always looks on the guru as follows:
The guru is the equal of all the enlightened ones. Always he himself is Vajradhara.
He holds all the qualities of the tathagata Ratnasambhava, the great ocean of
transcendental wisdom and the giver of the priceless wish-fulfilling gem.
Such a disciple does not consider, even in his thoughts, that the guru has any flaw."
Ornament of the Vajra Essence Tantra
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Then you surpass all the teachers,
your wisdom is greater than theirs,
you have no klesas to overcome,
hence your view is supreme
Your view of those who possess reason or not
is unbiased since you have no karmas that bind,
therefore you need no teacher, as you hear
what you deem as reason and all others are not,
You need no guru, as only those that speak with your
reason you hold.
Hence the tantras become difficult as devotion is not necessary,
all the great masters who hold their gurus supreme, must rewrite the texts.
Ashvagosha, Atisha, Tsongkapa, Shantideva all would follow not a guru
to enlightenment and their devotions are wrong.
Woe to the student who need no guru, such is a time as predicted
in the kaliyuga.
I have copied this to my computer and to my handphone. I am sending it to friends around the world. It is very well composed and it sums up our own arrogance due to karma that we know more than any/our teacher and we don't need them and we can do it on our own. We can't. Whether it's Lam Rim, Ornament of Clear Realizations, Ngarim Chenmo, or any of the commentaries of Yamantaka, Heruka, Guhyasamaja, Vajra Yogini, Kalacakra, a teacher is indispensible.
Thank you again.
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Dear tk,
Disciples of various gurus in the room will always have 'conflict' of opinions. Each guru will skilfully guide their students according to his learning/methods and the students aptitudes.
One side may be against the Dalai Lama and the other for. But to both these students, their lama is Vajradhara, hence both correct. So what is better, to endlessly debate who is right, or respect eachothers views and not bash any lamas/sects or thoughts. I think not to bash would be good for everyone's spiritual practice.
I thank you for your words.
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We need to rely on a teacher. There's no way around it. Anyone who does not, should not engage in Tantras or Tibetan Form of Buddhism. To engage in the Tantras, guru devotion is supreme. I didn't make that up, that was Vajradhara's stipulation.
Other forms of Buddhism may seem independent of a teacher in the beginning, but not for the higher teachings.
Ashvagosha in his famous composition on the 50 VERSES of GURU DEVOTION makes it very clear the importance of our spiritual teacher. Even Je Tsongkapa's own works makes it very clear how important the guru is.
If we read Trijang Rinpoche's biography, his devotion to his guru was supreme and complete. He confessed sometimes he didn't understand why the guru would have commanded this or that and it was only very later he understood, but nevertheless, he followed respectfully.
These are good examples to follow.
TK
What u say here is very clear and I have heard this from my own senior teacher also in the past a few times.
:)
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One side may be against the Dalai Lama and the other for. But to both these students, their lama is Vajradhara, hence both correct. So what is better, to endlessly debate who is right, or respect eachothers views and not bash any lamas/sects or thoughts. I think not to bash would be good for everyone's spiritual practice.
Thank you thaimonk for this sharing. These words ring very true, more so now in these times of confusion and conflict. It is more important than ever not to criticise other lamas, if we are to reflect our own teachers well and carry out their teachings. I think any real teacher would NOT encourage nor approve of their students speaking ill of any other lama.
I have read that as dharma practitioners, when we see or hear something of our own lamas that we do not understand or disagree strongly with, we are advised to just keep a respectful distance and not say anything, but just continue with our practices. If this is the advice given about our own lamas, then what more other lamas who we have not even studied under - what more right do we have to criticise or say ill things about them ?
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Then you surpass all the teachers,
your wisdom is greater than theirs,
you have no klesas to overcome,
hence your view is supreme
I bow to the feet of the guru who has as his nature
The glorious nondual transcendental wisdom
And not because I am a partisan :D
Where did you ever hear that a disciple should be a partisan ?
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Then you surpass all the teachers,
your wisdom is greater than theirs,
you have no klesas to overcome,
hence your view is supreme
Why choosing a guru on the basis of his qualities and not as a partisan leads you to think
that the disciple's wisdom is greater than the guru's wisdom, that the disciple has no kleshas
to overcome and that hence his view is supreme ? :-[
-
Dear TK
Well,it's 8;30 in the morning where I 'am' now...so going to do my Dorje Shugden prayers, golden drink, read up further on Trijang Rinpoche's biography, read up on the latest talks by Dalai Lama and then do some work. Do private message me again. I enjoyed hearing from you just now. Yes, I will most likely attend the teachings you mentioned.
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Another few thoughts:
All of us here, I believe, have great teachers that we have a lot of faith in.
It is my belief that no real lama would advocate or encourage any negative speech against any other lama, but encourage their students to always maintain respect (for other lamas as well as their students).
So therefore: do we believe that we are right? or our Lamas are right? If we believe our Lamas are right and have more knowledge and understanding than us, then we should try to reflect that by not speaking ill of other lamas / practitioners/ lineages / traditions etc. If we continue to do this, then we are saying that we know a better way than our lamas and we are right to continue doing this, while our lamas are wrong in advising us not to do this.
If you really believe that other lamas are "wrong" and your lama is most correct, wise and that his teachings are most truthful and the right way, then prove it right by putting those teachings into action. It doesn't make sense on the one hand to say that you believe in your lama and he is the best and you have full faith in his teachings, but then on the other hand, you turn around and do opposite to his teachings - badmouth other lamas, criticise their actions and inadvertently possibly destroy other people's faith in their lamas. That doesn't reflect well on you as a practitioner or as a student; and sadly, it also won't reflect well on your own teacher.
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Another few thoughts:
All of us here, I believe, have great teachers that we have a lot of faith in.
It is my belief that no real lama would advocate or encourage any negative speech against any other lama, but encourage their students to always maintain respect (for other lamas as well as their students).
So therefore: do we believe that we are right? or our Lamas are right? If we believe our Lamas are right and have more knowledge and understanding than us, then we should try to reflect that by not speaking ill of other lamas / practitioners/ lineages / traditions etc. If we continue to do this, then we are saying that we know a better way than our lamas and we are right to continue doing this, while our lamas are wrong in advising us not to do this.
If you really believe that other lamas are "wrong" and your lama is most correct, wise and that his teachings are most truthful and the right way, then prove it right by putting those teachings into action. It doesn't make sense on the one hand to say that you believe in your lama and he is the best and you have full faith in his teachings, but then on the other hand, you turn around and do opposite to his teachings - badmouth other lamas, criticise their actions and inadvertently possibly destroy other people's faith in their lamas. That doesn't reflect well on you as a practitioner or as a student; and sadly, it also won't reflect well on your own teacher.
Well said and very powerful thoughts.
Thanks
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If you say "I have faith" and you put down the one
who arises from the transcendental wisdom vajra
Then really you have no clear idea of who he is
You have no idea of the workings of Buddha,
Bodhisattvas and their different forms.
Exactly - and very relevant to this thread about speaking badly of the dalai lama, or of any lama for that matter - how do you know which lama is or isn't "one hwo arises from the transcendental wisdom vajra".
Certainly, yes, it's true - none of us at our level have any idea "of the workings of the Buddha, Bodhisattvas and their different forms" so who are we to judge their actions when we can't even tell who is a Buddha or not? It would be safer, and more beneficial for to maintain a respectful distance, speak objectively and think always about how our speech may be damaging for ourselves and damaging to another person's practice and samaya with his teacher... because you just never know. It is much better to assume that all these teachers ARE buddhas, than to assume that they are not.
ultimately, this practice extends to all human beings. At a tantric level, the old homeless lady down the road could be an enlightened being manifested to teach us in some way - then we train ourselves to see everyone as a teacher and to develop virtuous and positive ways of seeing the people and beings around us. Much healthier for individuals and the planet, I believe! :)
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If you say "I have faith" and you put down the one
who arises from the transcendental wisdom vajra
Then really you have no clear idea of who he is
You have no idea of the workings of Buddha,
Bodhisattvas and their different forms.
Exactly - and very relevant to this thread about speaking badly of the dalai lama, or of any lama for that matter - how do you know which lama is or isn't "one hwo arises from the transcendental wisdom vajra".
Certainly, yes, it's true - none of us at our level have any idea "of the workings of the Buddha, Bodhisattvas and their different forms" so who are we to judge their actions when we can't even tell who is a Buddha or not? It would be safer, and more beneficial for to maintain a respectful distance, speak objectively and think always about how our speech may be damaging for ourselves and damaging to another person's practice and samaya with his teacher... because you just never know. It is much better to assume that all these teachers ARE buddhas, than to assume that they are not.
ultimately, this practice extends to all human beings. At a tantric level, the old homeless lady down the road could be an enlightened being manifested to teach us in some way - then we train ourselves to see everyone as a teacher and to develop virtuous and positive ways of seeing the people and beings around us. Much healthier for individuals and the planet, I believe! :)
Exactly. And that leads again to the questions I asked to Thaimonk :
First, should you have missed this post, here the original quotation of Nagarjuna:
"Monarchs who do what is against the practices
And senseless are mostly praised
By their citizens, for it is hard to know
What will or will not be tolerated.
Hence it is hard to know
What is useful or not (to say).
If useful but unpleasant words
Are hard to speak to anyone else,
What could I, a monk, say to you,
A King who is a lord of the great earth ?"
Nagarjuna
Then the questions I adressed to thaimonk:
Should useful words be uttered, even if they are unpleasant words to be heard ?
Why does Nagarjuna utter those unpleasant words to be heard by the King ?
-
Exactly. And that leads again to the questions I asked to Thaimonk :
First, should you have missed this post, here the original quotation of Nagarjuna:
"Monarchs who do what is against the practices
And senseless are mostly praised
By their citizens, for it is hard to know
What will or will not be tolerated.
Hence it is hard to know
What is useful or not (to say).
If useful but unpleasant words
Are hard to speak to anyone else,
What could I, a monk, say to you,
A King who is a lord of the great earth ?"
Nagarjuna
Then the questions I adressed to thaimonk:
Should useful words be uttered, even if they are unpleasant words to be heard ?
Why does Nagarjuna utter those unpleasant words to be heard by the King ?
I think the question doesn't and cannot remain just at the word "unpleasant". Our lamas may say things that are "unpleasant" for us to hear but they are necessary for us to grow, learn or gain a realisation. When we look at something that may sound unpleasant, then we should think on several levels and consider a few things:
- what is the intention behind these words?
- are they true?
- do these words help in some way? Or are they said with intent to harm someone?
- if these kinds of words have been uttered before (either in the same tone, or the same words are used), then have they brought positive, beneficial results before? Or have they caused or more harm? Or nothing has happened by saying those words before?
I think this last point is important to consider, especially in determining whether words are useful or not. At our level, it is quite easy for our minds to trick themselves into thinking that the words we use, or our actions are useful or to benefit someone, when actually they arise out of a personal or selfish place.
-
"The disciple who has reverence for the guru always looks on the guru as follows:
The guru is the equal of all the enlightened ones. Always he himself is Vajradhara.
He holds all the qualities of the tathagata Ratnasambhava, the great ocean of
transcendental wisdom and the giver of the priceless wish-fulfilling gem.
Such a disciple does not consider, even in his thoughts, that the guru has any flaw."
Ornament of the Vajra Essence Tantra
Well and good if we are able to see our guru as equal to all the enlightened ones.
However, due to our own deluded minds and duality, we are limited in seeing beyond what we can...
Why run the risk of criticizing one who is enlightened whom we can't see...and argues all our lives with those who has taken refuge in and sees as their guru who is equal to all the enlightened ones?
Are you ready to face the karma? How sure are you that the one we are speaking of is to be condemned?
-
Then you surpass all the teachers,
your wisdom is greater than theirs,
you have no klesas to overcome,
hence your view is supreme
Your view of those who possess reason or not
is unbiased since you have no karmas that bind,
therefore you need no teacher, as you hear
what you deem as reason and all others are not,
You need no guru, as only those that speak with your
reason you hold.
Hence the tantras become difficult as devotion is not necessary,
all the great masters who hold their gurus supreme, must rewrite the texts.
Ashvagosha, Atisha, Tsongkapa, Shantideva all would follow not a guru
to enlightenment and their devotions are wrong.
Woe to the student who need no guru, such is a time as predicted
in the kaliyuga.
Absolutely powerful to counter wrong views on relying on a spiritual guide, the first requirement as taught by Manjunatha Je Tsongkhapa.
My heartfelt appreciation always dear Thaimonk
-
Exactly. And that leads again to the questions I asked to Thaimonk :
First, should you have missed this post, here the original quotation of Nagarjuna:
"Monarchs who do what is against the practices
And senseless are mostly praised
By their citizens, for it is hard to know
What will or will not be tolerated.
Hence it is hard to know
What is useful or not (to say).
If useful but unpleasant words
Are hard to speak to anyone else,
What could I, a monk, say to you,
A King who is a lord of the great earth ?"
Nagarjuna
Then the questions I adressed to thaimonk:
Should useful words be uttered, even if they are unpleasant words to be heard ?
Why does Nagarjuna utter those unpleasant words to be heard by the King ?
I think the question doesn't and cannot remain just at the word "unpleasant". Our lamas may say things that are "unpleasant" for us to hear but they are necessary for us to grow, learn or gain a realisation. When we look at something that may sound unpleasant, then we should think on several levels and consider a few things:
- what is the intention behind these words?
- are they true?
- do these words help in some way? Or are they said with intent to harm someone?
- if these kinds of words have been uttered before (either in the same tone, or the same words are used), then have they brought positive, beneficial results before? Or have they caused or more harm? Or nothing has happened by saying those words before?
I think this last point is important to consider, especially in determining whether words are useful or not. At our level, it is quite easy for our minds to trick themselves into thinking that the words we use, or our actions are useful or to benefit someone, when actually they arise out of a personal or selfish place.
So, if after due consideration you deem useful those unpleasant words to be uttered, will you frighten away thinking at your potential loss or utter them in order to benefit other beings ?
-
"The disciple who has reverence for the guru always looks on the guru as follows:
The guru is the equal of all the enlightened ones. Always he himself is Vajradhara.
He holds all the qualities of the tathagata Ratnasambhava, the great ocean of
transcendental wisdom and the giver of the priceless wish-fulfilling gem.
Such a disciple does not consider, even in his thoughts, that the guru has any flaw."
Ornament of the Vajra Essence Tantra
Well and good if we are able to see our guru as equal to all the enlightened ones.
However, due to our own deluded minds and duality, we are limited in seeing beyond what we can...
Why run the risk of criticizing one who is enlightened whom we can't see...and argues all our lives with those who has taken refuge in and sees as their guru who is equal to all the enlightened ones?
Are you ready to face the karma? How sure are you that the one we are speaking of is to be condemned?
Maybe in order to help fellow mother sentient beings, should we "run the risk" ?
If we are speaking to an enlightened being, he would surely be delighted that someone is taking it upon himself as a duty to help fellow mother sentient beings.
If we are not speaking to an enlightened being, he will maybe not be so delighted but nevertheless be "helped".
-
Goodness - I haven't been to the forum for a few hours and there's so much activity going on! I just want to add my tuppence to this issue:
Heartspoon - re your poem from Nagarjuna to the King - which King is he referring to? if it is just an earthly King the monk wishes to address to, then the monk may know better with his spiritual perception, but if it is a spiritual King and a fellow monk - then the context would be completely different.
Also - you say:
Maybe in order to help fellow mother sentient beings, should we "run the risk" ?
How would you actually help fellow mother sentient beings?
-
Goodness - I haven't been to the forum for a few hours and there's so much activity going on! I just want to add my tuppence to this issue:
Heartspoon - re your poem from Nagarjuna to the King - which King is he referring to? if it is just an earthly King the monk wishes to address to, then the monk may know better with his spiritual perception, but if it is a spiritual King and a fellow monk - then the context would be completely different.
Also - you say:
Maybe in order to help fellow mother sentient beings, should we "run the risk" ?
How would you actually help fellow mother sentient beings?
Like this:
"His Holiness the Dalai Lama consulted Palden Lhamo by means of divination and other methods to discover whether the propitiation of Shugden could be continued or should be prohibited."
Actually, HH the Dalai Lama consulted the State Oracle:
1rst answer of the State Oracle:
"Dorje Shugden a powerful deity, only to be worshipped by beings with high realizations. However worshipping this deity would upset Goddess Palden Lhamo (a superior protecting deity, who does not have an oracle)"
2nd answer of the State Oracle:
"the deity is appropriate to be worshipped by an individual, but not by a group"
3rd answer of the State Oracle:
"Dorje Shugden is a deity, suitable to the others, but not to the successor of the 5th Dalai Lama and those working for the Gaden Phodrang Government established by the 5th Dalai Lama."
4rth answer of the State Oracle:
"Dorje Shugden is a spirit born out of a Kagyupa-monk who hated the Tibetan government, and not the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen"
5th answer of the State Oracle:
"Dorje Shugden is the spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, whose Samaya bond to the 5th Dalai Lama was not good, thus it is harmful for this government."
6th answer of the State Oracle:
"Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a good lama, whose works of composition are praiseworthy, therefore Dorje Shugden cannot be the spirit of such a master."
7th answer of the State Oracle:
"Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself was a false Tulku, who came to be among the candidates for the 5th Dalai Lama and failed to be chosen, but through clever tactics of his mother on the first Panchen Lama Choe Kyi Gyaltsen, he was recognized as the fourth reincarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa (the teacher of 3rd Dalai Lama), but was then born as an evil, trouble-making spirit to harm the Tibetan government."
When HH the 14th Dalai Lama presented his "proofs" to HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, his Tutor answered:
"Palden Lhamo would not lie to You"
-
Goodness - I haven't been to the forum for a few hours and there's so much activity going on! I just want to add my tuppence to this issue:
Heartspoon - re your poem from Nagarjuna to the King - which King is he referring to? if it is just an earthly King the monk wishes to address to, then the monk may know better with his spiritual perception, but if it is a spiritual King and a fellow monk - then the context would be completely different.
Also - you say:
Maybe in order to help fellow mother sentient beings, should we "run the risk" ?
How would you actually help fellow mother sentient beings?
Like this:
"His Holiness the Dalai Lama consulted Palden Lhamo by means of divination and other methods to discover whether the propitiation of Shugden could be continued or should be prohibited."
Actually, HH the Dalai Lama consulted the State Oracle:
1rst answer of the State Oracle:
"Dorje Shugden a powerful deity, only to be worshipped by beings with high realizations. However worshipping this deity would upset Goddess Palden Lhamo (a superior protecting deity, who does not have an oracle)"
2nd answer of the State Oracle:
"the deity is appropriate to be worshipped by an individual, but not by a group"
3rd answer of the State Oracle:
"Dorje Shugden is a deity, suitable to the others, but not to the successor of the 5th Dalai Lama and those working for the Gaden Phodrang Government established by the 5th Dalai Lama."
4rth answer of the State Oracle:
"Dorje Shugden is a spirit born out of a Kagyupa-monk who hated the Tibetan government, and not the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen"
5th answer of the State Oracle:
"Dorje Shugden is the spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, whose Samaya bond to the 5th Dalai Lama was not good, thus it is harmful for this government."
6th answer of the State Oracle:
"Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a good lama, whose works of composition are praiseworthy, therefore Dorje Shugden cannot be the spirit of such a master."
7th answer of the State Oracle:
"Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself was a false Tulku, who came to be among the candidates for the 5th Dalai Lama and failed to be chosen, but through clever tactics of his mother on the first Panchen Lama Choe Kyi Gyaltsen, he was recognized as the fourth reincarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa (the teacher of 3rd Dalai Lama), but was then born as an evil, trouble-making spirit to harm the Tibetan government."
When HH the 14th Dalai Lama presented his "proofs" to HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, his Tutor answered:
"Palden Lhamo would not lie to You"
Sorry for being thick, my dear, but what are you trying to say?
I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding your posts - i'm afraid i'm not as educated as some of the people on this forum - you are speaking in riddles most of the time to me... so please have compassion on me and speak plainly.
thank you.
-
You asked me how we should actually help fellow mother beings.
When HH the Dalai Lama presented his "proofs" relating to the practice of Dorje Shugden, he asked us not to simply accept them, but to check their validity. We should follow this advice.
Then even if they are unpleasant words to be read, they are useful to be known by fellow mother sentients beings: it will enable them to check the validity of the "proofs" themselves, thus following the wishes of HH the Dalai Lama.
-
Heartspoon,
I totally empathize with WB. I don't get it either.
I have read through it a couple of times. Sorry, I still don't get what you mean to say.
Although a flair of words is a gift, it would be a greater gift if those words could be well understood by all who read them.
Please have compassion and explain EXACTLY what you mean to say and please, mean what you say - or write, for that matter.
Thank you.
-
Heartspoon,
I totally empathize with WB. I don't get it either.
I have read through it a couple of times. Sorry, I still don't get what you mean to say.
Although a flair of words is a gift, it would be a greater gift if those words could be well understood by all who read them.
Please have compassion and explain EXACTLY what you mean to say and please, mean what you say - or write, for that matter.
Thank you.
Helena,
Please accept my sincere apologies.
My command of the English language is indeed rather defective and I deeply regret my inability to convey in a clear and intelligible way the content of my messages. No studies worth speaking of, poor education. So, first of all it would be kind of surprising if there was anything meaningful to read here...
I will nonetheless try to write it differently, for the last time probably.
Should my words make as pathetic a reading as those you already had to endure, please simply give up.
-
First post in this thread - Nagarjuna's advice to his disciple, the King
There is certainly no need to tell anyone why Nagarjuna's advice to his disciple the King
is relevant to this thread.
Suffice it to say that Nagarjuna doesn't shy away from the use of useful but unpleasant words...
-
Second post in this thread - Statement by an ignorant person
While there is no doubt that everyone else sees clearly the meaning of Nagarjuna's advice , I have a very hard time trying to understand it: as a partial remedy for my ignorance, I tried my best to imagine what I would say in a similar situation.
The result is this "statement by an ignorant person". As the title indicates, it has no value in itself.
It is simply an honest attempt to practice this instruction of Nagarjuna: I know it shows a complete lack of knowledge.
I wrote it here hoping that someone would point to me its many defects. The persons doing this would likewise benefit from the exercise, no ?
-
Third, Fourth and Fifth posts in this thread - Which advice should we follow ?
Thaimonk had the kindness to post an advice of Trijang Rinpoche, stating:
"If we belong to the lineage of Trijang Rinpoche and/or our Guru's guru is Trijang Rinpoche, I think the above advice is appropriate to remember and follow."
Giving way to the following exchange:
Heartspoon:
Of course. And if we are dharma followers, I think Nagarjuna's advice is appropriate to remember and follow.
And the statement of an ignorant person is not a bad way to help transform one's own mind
Thaimonk:
I'd rather follow Trijang Rinpoche's advice. Sorry.
Heartspoon:
I'd rather follow all those advices...
-
Why I would rather follow all those advices
I think there is absolutely no contradiction between the advices of Nagarjuna and Trijang Rinpoche.
Why choose to follow only one of those instructions and not abide by both of them ?
-
Heartspoon - you've written 6 posts... and I'm still not really clear what you are saying.
Re saying useful but unpleasant words - i guess unpleasant is subjective. When I speak positively of the Dalai Lama, some people find that unpleasant while i find it useful.
As for the advices of Nagarjuna or Trijang Rinpoche - i think it depends on the context of the advice whether it is applicable or not. If taken out of context, even Buddha's words would not be applicable in a certain situation.
Are you a monk, by the way? That you would put yourself in Nagarjuna's position?
Also the statement of an ignorant person, you said:
While there is no doubt that everyone else sees clearly the meaning of Nagarjuna's advice , I have a very hard time trying to understand it: as a partial remedy for my ignorance, I tried my best to imagine what I would say in a similar situation.
The result is this "statement by an ignorant person".
Does this mean you wrote that statement?
-
Sectarianism, narrow-mindedness and attachment to one's own interests
When HH the 14th Dalai Lama gave all those teachings speaking of sectarianism, I was very afraid and thought it was high time for me to worry about this aspect of practice or lack of it.
Because it's so difficult for me to understand correctly anything and in particular this topic being so arduous to "digest" I had to spend many hours, kind of pretending I was studying it.
But something strange occured: the more time I spent studying it, the more afraid I was. But I have to confess something that is properly shameful, I know: I was really really afraid for HH the Dalai Lama's disciples fate. Ridiculous, isn't it ?
Now I think that due to being myself so frightened I kind of managed tricking myself in thinking it was the other way round: me observing other beings facing a great peril and not them observing me in dire need of help...
-
Heartspoon - you've written 6 posts... and I'm still not really clear what you are saying.
Re saying useful but unpleasant words - i guess unpleasant is subjective. When I speak positively of the Dalai Lama, some people find that unpleasant while i find it useful.
As for the advices of Nagarjuna or Trijang Rinpoche - i think it depends on the context of the advice whether it is applicable or not. If taken out of context, even Buddha's words would not be applicable in a certain situation.
Are you a monk, by the way? That you would put yourself in Nagarjuna's position?
Also the statement of an ignorant person, you said:
While there is no doubt that everyone else sees clearly the meaning of Nagarjuna's advice , I have a very hard time trying to understand it: as a partial remedy for my ignorance, I tried my best to imagine what I would say in a similar situation.
The result is this "statement by an ignorant person".
Does this mean you wrote that statement?
- I'm no monk, they are not that crazy the monks...
- Foolish I may be, but in this case I simply quoted Nagarjuna, wishing to mention an instruction he gave.
- I wrote that title "statement by an ignorant person". The text itself was originally written in a slightly different order with an altogether slight different meaning by a very high ranking lama. Being unable to understand it properly I spent many hours studying it and taking it as an instruction proceeded with my own try...
-
- I'm no monk, they are not that crazy the monks...
- Foolish I may be, but in this case I simply quoted Nagarjuna, wishing to mention an instruction he gave.
- I wrote that title "statement by an ignorant person". The text itself was originally written in a slightly different order with an altogether slight different meaning by a very high ranking lama. Being unable to understand it properly I spent many hours studying it and taking it as an instruction proceeded with my own try...
Are you Asian by any chance? I'm just curious about your struggle with English.
-
Kindness of HH the 14th Dalai Lama
I have no doubt that if I spent time trying to write about sectarianism, narrow-mindedness and attachment to one's own interests, it's in great part thanks to the blessings of HH the 14th Dalai Lama. He delivered such forceful teachings on this topic, so useful and at the same time rather unpleasant to hear for me, that I kind of managed to find ways forcing my lazy mind to spend time on this rather uninspiring topic.
As he had been so kind giving us this instruction it would have been quite shameful not trying to apply his instruction, don't you think ?
-
- I'm no monk, they are not that crazy the monks...
- Foolish I may be, but in this case I simply quoted Nagarjuna, wishing to mention an instruction he gave.
- I wrote that title "statement by an ignorant person". The text itself was originally written in a slightly different order with an altogether slight different meaning by a very high ranking lama. Being unable to understand it properly I spent many hours studying it and taking it as an instruction proceeded with my own try...
Are you Asian by any chance? I'm just curious about your struggle with English.
No, I am not. But English is only my third language.
-
What a fool I am - It's so shameful.
After some words more exchanged, I thought I remembered a few lines of teaching.
They went like this:
I am not a partisan of my root guru
I do not hate those who write many things
That are made to appear like a correct path
I hold as a teacher only Him
Whose word possesses reason
And now I really made a fool of myself:
I wished to indicate who wrote it, but I couldn't remember. Even today, after hours thinking about it
my memory is completely silent about it. I learned this verse and some others following it years ago.
I should have remembered the instruction that says one should keep in mind the teachings.
So, big lesson for me: time to open the books again...
In the meantime if I was hard-pressed to give an anwer, I would say it is probably Je Tsongkhapa who
wrote it. Stay tuned, I'll give the answer soon, I hope...
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I'm so relieved - I remembered it about half-right
Shamkarapati's "Praise of the Supra-Divine (Devatishayastotra) says:
I am not a partisan of Buddha,
I do not hate Kapila and the others,
I hold as a teacher only
Him whose word possesses reason.
"You should forsake partisanship and hatred for the systems of your own and others' teachers and analyse
which of them provide good and bad explanations. Then, you should adopt only that which shows the means
of attaining the two aims of trainees (high status within cyclic existence and the definite goodness of liberation
and omniscience) and provides correct proofs. The scriptures of the two systems are what are to be analysed
to find which does or does not bear the truth; thus it would not be suitable to cite them as a proof (of their
own truth). Only reasoning distinguishes what is or is not true."
Je Tsongkhapa
-
Dear Heartspoon,
You must have your reason and motivation to recycle old posts made by yourself.
Your posts in here mirrors your posts back in April 2008, under a thread titled: "Special Pride".
I think even poster named, "A Friend" also asked what you are alluding to at that time - if I am not mistaken.
Now, it is 2010 and you are still using the same words, or so to express what, I am not sure as well.
I am afraid I am neither learned or that enlightened to be of any meaningful assistance.
I come into this space to learn and understand more as well.
However I have noticed that other kind posters be it the most recent ones such as Thai Monk, TK, Beggar, DS Friend, Wisdom Being and even those posters back in 2008 have all done their best to help answer your 'questions' or "point the defects' as you put it.
Whether you choose to acknowledge or accept remains your right, but at least, I am able to recognise some people have been so kind to answer you.
Many a times, I do find myself not just questioning other posters’ intention when they write in this Forum, but also my own.
Over time, there have been posts which seemed to be written purely for the own author’s pleasure or points of views with no regard to benefit anyyone. Hence, sometimes it is hard to tell why we are writing the things we write, or thinking the thoughts we hold. This is why Beggar’s comments resonate with me.
BEGGAR: I think this last point is important to consider, especially in determining whether words are useful or not. At our level, it is quite easy for our minds to trick themselves into thinking that the words we use, or our actions are useful or to benefit someone, when actually they arise out of a personal or selfish place.
Over time, as well, I have discovered that there are many high level practitioners here. And I do not mean those who just recite from scriptures and texts. I mean, those who have actually gone through extensive training and retreats such as TK.
Hence, this space has given me a lot of education, information and I do appreciate that very much.
For example, I find Thai Monk’s composition below most profound. If one takes the time to explore each line, so much can be learnt. I, for one, cannot compose something like this for sure. It takes years of study and understanding of the essence of the teachings, I would imagine.
FROM THAI MONK:
you surpass all the teachers,
your wisdom is greater than theirs,
you have no klesas to overcome,
hence your view is supreme
Your view of those who possess reason or not
is unbiased since you have no karmas that bind,
therefore you need no teacher, as you hear
what you deem as reason and all others are not,
You need no guru, as only those that speak with your
reason you hold.
Hence the tantras become difficult as devotion is not necessary,
all the great masters who hold their gurus supreme, must rewrite the texts.
Ashvagosha, Atisha, Tsongkapa, Shantideva all would follow not a guru
to enlightenment and their devotions are wrong.
Woe to the student who need no guru, such is a time as predicted
in the kaliyuga.
Suffice to say, I do sincerely believe that the Guru holds the key to one’s ultimate realization.
I do not fear for the Dalai Lama’s disciples. In fact, I am relieved that they all have His Holiness to guide them and help them. Otherwise, they would be lost.
That does not mean that I agree with the ban though.
I think everyone who is practicing Dharma sincerely would be lost if they did not have a Guru who would guide and help them.
Lay people have not invested the time and effort in learning and acquiring those skills in spiritual practice. The Gurus have.
Lay people do not have the access to secret teachings that have been passed down from one guru to another through precious oral transmissions. The Gurus have.
So, thank goodness, for the Gurus – otherwise, we would be surely lost and left to fend for ourselves.
At the very highest level, Dorje Shugden is Wisdom personified and HH Dalai Lama is Compassion personified.
We need both method and wisdom to achieve Enlightenment.
Our lay perception will choose what it wants to believe, as it always had. That’s the nature of samsara.
But if we do heed the advice and guidance of our Gurus, then at least, we have a chance to be rid of this “samsaric curse”.
How we will fare in our attainments will depend on how well we keep our vows, practice and samayas. Our own actions will speak for us because our results will show itself from there.
Nagarjuna expounded the Buddha’s teaching through the logic of the India of his time. Through the process of reductio ad absurdum he negated all truths without affirming any truth.
By affirming that all things are empty, he was able to negate both existence and non-existence without contradiction. The great Sun-lun master, Chi-tsang wrote,
“Originally there was nothing to affirm and there is not now anything to negate.”
Wish you well in your practice and a very good day.
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Dear Helena,
Unfortunately for him, Thaimonk kind of "refuted" the teaching of Je Tsongkhapa mentioned in my last post.
Take one or two minutes and read this wonderful teaching of Je Tsongkhapa, then read again the so-called
"refutation" of Thaimonk and tell me what are your thoughts about it.
For the time being, I will follow the guidance of Je Tsongkhapa and try to learn as much as possible from
Thaimonk...
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I think you should address your "questions" to Thaimonk and not me, since you think Thaimonk has refuted the teaching of Je Tsongkhapa. Especially so, if you mean what you wrote that you will try to learn as much as possible from Thaimonk.
I have read through the posts and I do not see that Thaimonk refuted Je Tsongkhapa's teachings.
That is all I can say as I am not Thaimonk and it would be unfair for me to assume anything more.
I guess, our minds do choose what it wants to see and will interpret as it chooses.
Teachings do not need to come in the form of scriptures and texts alone. There are teachings abound everywhere around us.
Every day, every situation, the people we meet present opportunities for us to practice.
Wish you the best of luck and may you gain true realizations so that you can benefit many beings.
I got to get back to my own studies and work.
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I think you should address your "questions" to Thaimonk and not me, since you think Thaimonk has refuted the teaching of Je Tsongkhapa.
I think what ??? ??? ??? ??? :-[ :-[ :-[
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Dear Helena,
First, I wrote this:
I am not a partisan of my root guru
I do not hate those who write many things
That are made to appear like a correct path
I hold as a teacher only Him
Whose word possesses reason
Thaimonk answered this:
Then you surpass all the teachers,
your wisdom is greater than theirs,
you have no klesas to overcome,
hence your view is supreme
Your view of those who possess reason or not
is unbiased since you have no karmas that bind,
therefore you need no teacher, as you hear
what you deem as reason and all others are not,
You need no guru, as only those that speak with your
reason you hold.
Hence the tantras become difficult as devotion is not necessary,
all the great masters who hold their gurus supreme, must rewrite the texts.
Ashvagosha, Atisha, Tsongkapa, Shantideva all would follow not a guru
to enlightenment and their devotions are wrong.
Woe to the student who need no guru, such is a time as predicted
in the kaliyuga.
And now I write this:
Shamkarapati's "Praise of the Supra-Divine (Devatishayastotra) says:
I am not a partisan of Buddha,
I do not hate Kapila and the others,
I hold as a teacher only
Him whose word possesses reason.
"You should forsake partisanship and hatred for the systems of your own and others' teachers and analyse
which of them provide good and bad explanations. Then, you should adopt only that which shows the means
of attaining the two aims of trainees (high status within cyclic existence and the definite goodness of liberation
and omniscience) and provides correct proofs. The scriptures of the two systems are what are to be analysed
to find which does or does not bear the truth; thus it would not be suitable to cite them as a proof (of their
own truth). Only reasoning distinguishes what is or is not true."
Je Tsongkhapa
-
Heartspoon, Helena,
May i respectfully suggest that we change the subject as this endless exchange seems to be going nowhere?
Thank you.
-
Heartspoon, Helena,
May i respectfully suggest that we change the subject as this endless exchange seems to be going nowhere?
Thank you.
I agree with Wisdom Being.
Take this opportunity to practise "Let the others win".
Lets move on.........
Cheers to both Helena and Heartspoon.
-
Lets move on...
Je Tsongkhapa wrote:
"You should forsake partisanship and hatred for the systems of your own and others' teachers and analyse
which of them provide good and bad explanations. Then, you should adopt only that which shows the means
of attaining the two aims of trainees (high status within cyclic existence and the definite goodness of liberation
and omniscience) and provides correct proofs. The scriptures of the two systems are what are to be analysed
to find which does or does not bear the truth; thus it would not be suitable to cite them as a proof (of their
own truth). Only reasoning distinguishes what is or is not true."
Keeping in mind this instruction, one should read again the list of "proofs" that HH the 14th Dalai Lama presented
to his tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.
HH the 14th Dalai Lama himself said that if one simply accepted his "proofs" without checking their accuracy first,
this one would not act as a Buddhist.
What do you think ?
Should we check ?
And if you agree that we should: does "only reasoning distinguish what is or is not true" ?
-
Heartspoon, Helena,
May i respectfully suggest that we change the subject as this endless exchange seems to be going nowhere?
Thank you.
I agree with Wisdom Being.
Take this opportunity to practise "Let the others win".
Lets move on.........
Cheers to both Helena and Heartspoon.
What do you think ?
Should we follow the instruction of HH the Dalai Lama and check his "proofs" ?
Or should we practice "Let the others win" and not check his "proofs" ?
-
Are you afraid to check, thinking that HH the Dalai Lama and his tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche cannot
be both right ?
Why do you think they cannot be both right ?
What is the probability of you being right and one of them proved wrong ?
If you fairly think of your own "training" in Dharma and that of either of them,
how would you rate your need of thinking again on this topic ?
What is the probability that one of them would be proved wrong in such a topic ?
What is the probability that two enlightened beings would disagree in such a topic ?
What is the probability that such a highly trained being as HH the Dalai Lama would present
illogical "proofs" to such a highly trained being as his tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche ?
For the benefit of whom did they act in the way they did ?
What is the meaning of the words said by HH the Dalai Lama to his tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche ?
What is the meaning of the answer of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to HH the Dalai Lama ?
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Oh, how surprising !
Today, my neighbors all met together. They were very excited.
For a very good reason. You see something unheard of happened...
For the very first time, a new form of practice will be available.
It's such an earth-shaking scoop that you had better be seated
before reading on, or I fear someone could accidentally lose the use
of his legs...
Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community" neighbor
had the extraordinary skill to find for us a new way of practicing Dharma:
Using critical thinking is not anymore requested
From now on, if we have any doubt about anything a single answer will
be sufficient for anything thrown our way:
"it's like that because our 'rich, powerful and much admired by the community'
neighbor said "it's like that".
How surprising ! And Je Tsonkhapa who had to do all those unbelievable practices.
Today, it's incredibly easier, me thinks...
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The kids are so happy - Immunity granted
When I came back home, kids were stoning my house.
Nothing special, you know, it happens each time our
"rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor expounds to them his new system of practice.
Here they all call me the "old-fashioned" one or the one
who refuses to think like all of us.
I tried to speak with the kids, but they laughed out loud.
Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor granted all of them immunity since they adopted
his new kind of practice.
You see life tremendously changed for them, they are so
happy: from now on, they will not have to face any
consequence for their acts.
Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor has promised that he will take upon himself all
the karmic consequences of their acts.
If only I could obtain such a deal for myself.
Unbelievable...
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Elixir of immortality
Tonight I went again to the woods and I met an old original who spent years alone in solitude.
He wishes to find the Elixir of immortality and searches tirelessly.
He had very big news for me: he doesn't need to search anymore, our "rich, powerful and much
admired by the community" neighbor has found it.
It works like that:
Until now, for the old-fashioned ones,
Bad speech, calumnies directed towards someone are like blessings, long life ceremonies for this person.
Being subjected to them clears obstacles, eliminates bad karma. If one keeps patience while being subjected
to those forms of abuse, it greatly increases the merits and thus contributes to increase one's life span.
Very simple: one doesn't need to ask for them, one doesn't need to pay for them, one doesn't even need
to know that it is happening. In any case he will benefit from it.
So one should really rejoice if he has to exert patience when subjected to harm.
But there is a big problem : of course, the poor being who is doing such deeds is putting himself in exactly the reverse position. Frightening !
From now on, the new practice of our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community" neighbor:
Thanks to his newly found practice, as his disciples don't have to face the karmic consequences of their
acts, thanks to the immunity graciously granted by our neighbor, logically everyone will benefit from
the forms of abuse mentionned above, the person who is doing the bad deeds as well as the one who is
subjected to harm. Death is old news: now it will be almost impossible to die.
Big problem resolved: this way, he has really found the famed elixir of immortality
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What do you think ?
Should we follow the instruction of HH the Dalai Lama and check his "proofs" ?
Or should we practice "Let the others win" and not check his "proofs" ?
yes, we should always check, use logic. Letting others win is not about some mindless "stupid compassion" (in that case, we will let someone "win" even if they come and try to kill us! Letting others win is about not "giving in" by reacting in negative, ways, arguing for the sake of aruging and perpetuating negativity / negative karma.
Checking someone's argument or proofs is not about us winning or them winning. It is about debating a point out with logic and seeing if it can apply and bring benefit. If we feel it cannot, then we do not follow it. Whether we decide to follow this person's argument or not doesn't mean they have "won" or "lost".
Even if we check the Dalai Lama's "proofs" against the logic of Dharma and disagree with his arguments, we can still "let him win" by not insulting or criticising him in a damaging way. We don't need to "win" by squashing him, name calling, or trying to bring ruin to his name and reputation. We can question, with Dharma and compassion, but in a way that doesn't damage others or create more negative thinking or hatred.
-
What do you think ?
Should we follow the instruction of HH the Dalai Lama and check his "proofs" ?
Or should we practice "Let the others win" and not check his "proofs" ?
yes, we should always check, use logic. Letting others win is not about some mindless "stupid compassion" (in that case, we will let someone "win" even if they come and try to kill us! Letting others win is about not "giving in" by reacting in negative, ways, arguing for the sake of aruging and perpetuating negativity / negative karma.
Checking someone's argument or proofs is not about us winning or them winning. It is about debating a point out with logic and seeing if it can apply and bring benefit. If we feel it cannot, then we do not follow it. Whether we decide to follow this person's argument or not doesn't mean they have "won" or "lost".
Even if we check the Dalai Lama's "proofs" against the logic of Dharma and disagree with his arguments, we can still "let him win" by not insulting or criticising him in a damaging way. We don't need to "win" by squashing him, name calling, or trying to bring ruin to his name and reputation. We can question, with Dharma and compassion, but in a way that doesn't damage others or create more negative thinking or hatred.
And then out of loving kindness, compassion and skillful means, uttering useful even if unpleasant words to hear, we will behave properly...
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Correct use of reasoning will never lead us
to think that either HH the 14th Dalai Lama
or his tutor Trijang Rinpoche are giving
misleading instructions.
Could it be that we either don't understand
properly the instructions or that even though
we understand them we don't apply them to
transform our minds ?
-
Correct use of reasoning will never lead us
to think that either HH the 14th Dalai Lama
or his tutor Trijang Rinpoche are giving
misleading instructions.
I'm sorry, but I've got to disagree with this one. The Dalai Lama clearly is giving misleading instructions, and this is causing suffering to the Tibetan community in particular and the international Buddhist community in general.
How can instructing the abbots of Gelugpa monasteries to expel Dorje Shugden practitioners, as well as all the discrimination and ostracism that has taken place, be correct instructions? Correct instructions lead to happiness not misery and compassion protects living beings, not inflicts harm on them.
-
Correct use of reasoning will never lead us
to think that either HH the 14th Dalai Lama
or his tutor Trijang Rinpoche are giving
misleading instructions.
I'm sorry, but I've got to disagree with this one. The Dalai Lama clearly is giving misleading instructions, and this is causing suffering to the Tibetan community in particular and the international Buddhist community in general.
How can instructing the abbots of Gelugpa monasteries to expel Dorje Shugden practitioners, as well as all the discrimination and ostracism that has taken place, be correct instructions? Correct instructions lead to happiness not misery and compassion protects living beings, not inflicts harm on them.
Lineageholder,
I'm so pleased to hear a fellow dharma practitioner who is not afraid to use his own critical thinking !
If only all the practitioners were able to remember the meaning of the teachings and to apply correctly
the instructions not a single practitioner would have been expelled from the Gelugpa monasteries and
no discrimination and ostracism would have taken place.
-
I still think it is best not to judge.
The situation is as it is now - now what? Are Dorje Shugden practitioners going to be split over this issue and fight each other, put each other down or find a way to improve our Dharma practice?
Is your opinion of HH the Dalai Lama crucial to your Dharma practice, that it supercedes all else?
Yes HH the Dalai Lama imposed the ban. No one is contending that and no one on this forum contends that people are suffering as a result of this ban - this is repeated ad nauseum on this forum.
So - what are we going to do about it? Hurl mud on the Dalai Lama's name? What does it achieve? Who is enforcing this ban? The TGIE and consequently the Tibetan monasteries in India. Do you think that by insulting the Dalai Lama, this will cause the Dalai Lama to change his stance? TGIE to change their stance?
What do you think someone would think of anti-Dalai Lama threads? They may not have an opinion on the Dalai Lama even before they come to this site because they want to learn about Dorje Shugden and not the politics (yes, that's possible). Sure they will read both sides of the story - as there is ample information on the ban here - and make up their own minds, but do we want to show people that Dorje Shugden practitioners are having such negative thoughts?
Why not focus on the innumerable benefits of Dharma practice? Our yidams? Je Tsongkhapa? Dorje Shugden?
And this is something i really don't understand, why do people who don't agree with the mission of this site - i.e. Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden working together - still come here, and continue to harp on the same issue?
It's like going to a vegetarian forum and saying no, you need to eat meat cos i believe it's healthier. The philosophical beliefs of that site are contradictory to the meat eaters but they still want to convert the vegetarians to be meat eaters. I just find it really weird.
i think i know your stance on this issue, you know my stance, so can we please just focus on something else - there are so many interesting threads out there to discuss.
-
I still think it is best not to judge.
I still think it is best to understand
-
Saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and I understand his actions" is better than
saying " I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama but I do not understand his actions"
Don't you think so ?
-
Saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are right" is better than
saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are wrong"
Don't you think so ?
-
I still think it is best not to judge.
The situation is as it is now - now what? Are Dorje Shugden practitioners going to be split over this issue and fight each other, put each other down or find a way to improve our Dharma practice?
Is your opinion of HH the Dalai Lama crucial to your Dharma practice, that it supercedes all else?
Yes HH the Dalai Lama imposed the ban. No one is contending that and no one on this forum contends that people are suffering as a result of this ban - this is repeated ad nauseum on this forum.
So - what are we going to do about it? Hurl mud on the Dalai Lama's name? What does it achieve? Who is enforcing this ban? The TGIE and consequently the Tibetan monasteries in India. Do you think that by insulting the Dalai Lama, this will cause the Dalai Lama to change his stance? TGIE to change their stance?
What do you think someone would think of anti-Dalai Lama threads? They may not have an opinion on the Dalai Lama even before they come to this site because they want to learn about Dorje Shugden and not the politics (yes, that's possible). Sure they will read both sides of the story - as there is ample information on the ban here - and make up their own minds, but do we want to show people that Dorje Shugden practitioners are having such negative thoughts?
Why not focus on the innumerable benefits of Dharma practice? Our yidams? Je Tsongkhapa? Dorje Shugden?
And this is something i really don't understand, why do people who don't agree with the mission of this site - i.e. Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden working together - still come here, and continue to harp on the same issue?
It's like going to a vegetarian forum and saying no, you need to eat meat cos i believe it's healthier. The philosophical beliefs of that site are contradictory to the meat eaters but they still want to convert the vegetarians to be meat eaters. I just find it really weird.
i think i know your stance on this issue, you know my stance, so can we please just focus on something else - there are so many interesting threads out there to discuss.
I like what you wrote. What has happened has happened and it is up to us to make the best of it and not moan and groan forever. :)
I really like your thinking and how you practice the dharma. It appeals to me so much. Practitioners like you will be very effective to calm the minds of doubting new comers very much.
Thank you.
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Saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are right" is better than
saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are wrong"
Don't you think so ?
Are you trying to say that from a conventional stand point that the Dalai lamas reasons are perfectly valid ? Bearing in mind when i say conventional I mean the reasons he has given EG evil spirit ?
-
For those who do not agree and do not like HH the Dalai Lama's ban on DS, can we learn here to accept the fact and MOVE ON???
Why do we have to spend hours and hours of concentrating on something not constructive and find any possible ways to harp on the same issue again and again and again..........
Can we use this "Adverse" situation to practise some REAL Dharma??
That's is what it is all about, without these adverse situations, how do we know we are just another intellectual or a sincere practitioner who wants to really make the best out of what has happened.
By not accepting the fact, you will never move on and stay stagnant in your own thoughts.
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Saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are right" is better than
saying "I respect HH the 14th Dalai Lama and his actions are wrong"
Don't you think so ?
Are you trying to say that from a conventional stand point that the Dalai lamas reasons are perfectly valid ? Bearing in mind when i say conventional I mean the reasons he has given EG evil spirit ?
When the Dalai Lama says go and check the reasons I have given, he is not necessarily thinking or hoping we will find them perfectly valid, does he ?
And if we find them as not valid, he is not necessarily thinking or hoping we will take his reasons as the basis of an instruction in the same way as we would if we had found that the reasons were valid, does he ?
Remember maybe who he is and what kind of training was available to him...
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"Even if one chooses to close one's eyes to the evidence, without caring about the results of one's actions, perform things that are going to damn you, it is not up to me, and I can do nothing about it. It is like the words, “I, Kachei Palu, have disclosed my secrets here, but whether you choose to listen or not is up to you”.
How true...and incidentally said by HH 14th the Dalai Lama...
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"Even if one chooses to close one's eyes to the evidence, without caring about the results of one's actions, perform things that are going to damn you, it is not up to me, and I can do nothing about it. It is like the words, “I, Kachei Palu, have disclosed my secrets here, but whether you choose to listen or not is up to you”.
How true...and incidentally said by HH 14th the Dalai Lama...
Isn't that something worth thinking about? How can someone who has taken on the burden of caring for Tibetans' welfare and the welfare of sentient beings do something "without caring about the results of one's actions".
-
"Even if one chooses to close one's eyes to the evidence, without caring about the results of one's actions, perform things that are going to damn you, it is not up to me, and I can do nothing about it. It is like the words, “I, Kachei Palu, have disclosed my secrets here, but whether you choose to listen or not is up to you”.
How true...and incidentally said by HH 14th the Dalai Lama...
Isn't that something worth thinking about? How can someone who has taken on the burden of caring for Tibetans' welfare and the welfare of sentient beings do something "without caring about the results of one's actions".
Tenzin Gyatso didn't have any choice about caring for the Tibetan's welfare because he was appointed as the Dalai Lama from an early age, a burden that makes me feel sad for him. Having said that, if you check, he hasn't really done anything for the Tibetan people. It might be argued, actually, in general they are better off under the Chinese than under the violent feudal theocracy that existed pre-1959.
Also - do you really think that the Dalai Lama would have created a schism in the Sangha if he was thinking about the results of his actions?
-
Isn't that something worth thinking about? How can someone who has taken on the burden of caring for Tibetans' welfare and the welfare of sentient beings do something "without caring about the results of one's actions".
Tenzin Gyatso didn't have any choice about caring for the Tibetan's welfare because he was appointed as the Dalai Lama from an early age, a burden that makes me feel sad for him. Having said that, if you check, he hasn't really done anything for the Tibetan people. It might be argued, actually, in general they are better off under the Chinese than under the violent feudal theocracy that existed pre-1959.
Also - do you really think that the Dalai Lama would have created a schism in the Sangha if he was thinking about the results of his actions?
I think we should not feel sad for Dalai Lama to be chosen at early age, infact, that's was the purpose for Chenrizig to reincarnate back again to benefit more sentient beings. That is the reasons why they come back, totally out of compassion.
Lineageholder, how can you said the Dalai Lama hadn't done anything for the Tibetan people? What the Tibetans are now facing is also a collective karma that Tibet and Tibetans as a whole have created. I really can't say if the Tibetans are better off under the Chinese rule now. You could be right if we only look at it on an economical level.
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Lineageholder, how can you said the Dalai Lama hadn't done anything for the Tibetan people? What the Tibetans are now facing is also a collective karma that Tibet and Tibetans as a whole have created. I really can't say if the Tibetans are better off under the Chinese rule now. You could be right if we only look at it on an economical level.
Triesa, good point. It's true that the Tibetans are experiencing collective karma, the ineffectiveness of the Dalai Lama is just part of that karma. I'm sure there are many different factors involved in why the Dalai Lama has completely failed to achieve either autonomy or independence for Tibet, but it seems apparent to me that he doesn't really care about either.
I just looked up the Wikipedia article on human rights in China, and if we examine the areas of freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of the press and religious freedom, there is no more freedom in the Tibetan Exile Community than there is under the Chinese. The Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile attempt to control all of these, so if the Tibetan Government in Exile accuse the Chinese of controlling these areas and subjugating human rights, sadly it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Maybe the Tibetans have the karma to be treated like this no matter who claims to be in charge; that's very sad.
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We feel obliged to know all kinds of things – to understand and to try to convince others. We hear our Guru's or some other Spiritual Advisor's talks, we read books, and we want to tell others about the "truth" – we might even feel a bit evangelical – but may be there is wisdom in letting go of even the desire to tell others.
When we feel enthusiastic, we begin to impose on other people; but in meditation we let go of the desire to influence others until the right time for it occurs – then it happens naturally rather than as an "aggressive ambition".
For most of us, we use our 'ordinary standards of morality' and 'identification' to judge all that is happening around us. And we begin to believe it is true, especially when we have a group of people who share the same belief as us. The same applies to the other groups of people as well - because they also have a number of people in holding the same beliefs or ideas.
Your brand of truth or my brand of truth - in the end, there is no truth that is defined by you or me.
The reality is that we create our own suffering because we simply cannot let go of what we like to think is right or correct.
What's worse - we want other people to agree with us.
Honestly, no mortal can ever begin to comprehend an Enlightened Being's actions or motivations for doing anything. Sometimes situations are deliberately created to benefit us in a way that we may not even know until much later.
We do not know everything and we certainly cannot understand everything.
It is apparent to me that a lot have been said and will be said over and over again by people who really do not have absolute knowledge of what is really going on, what will be going on and even what has come to passed.
If we still using our old or existing perception to judge and make conclusions on things which are constantly evolving, then perhaps we do not really understand karma, dharma and even samsara.
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It is precisely because there are so many different types of minds that Buddha invented the 84,000 different ways to achieve enlightenment.
Different individuals have different preferences for this or that and they certainly have so many opinions about what is suitable or not, what is right or not, etc.
If there were not so many different ways, I think many of us would never get the chance to ever hear the word: Buddha or Dharma.
So, perhaps there are different methods different groups would employ to practise the Dharma and express the Dharma or even protect the Dharma - they all would cater for the various groups of people.
It may not be my cup of tea but I can respect that they are doing what they think is right. I would not be insisting that my own thinking is supreme and correct. I would only know what is right for me and best for me.
I am very glad that there are different methods and ways to practise Dharma for every one of us.
As different as it may seem and sound, in the end - we will all arrive at the same destination and that is, Nirvana.
So, please be glad that every one has a fair chance and please allow each to follow the path which is best suited for them. And just be happy that they are on their way - even if they may not be going on the route you like or prefer.
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We do not know everything and we certainly cannot understand everything.
It is apparent to me that a lot have been said and will be said over and over again by people who really do not have absolute knowledge of what is really going on, what will be going on and even what has come to passed.
If we still using our old or existing perception to judge and make conclusions on things which are constantly evolving, then perhaps we do not really understand karma, dharma and even samsara.
You're right, we cannot understand everything, but we shouldn't use lack of absolute knowledge as an excuse for inaction either. You don't need to have 'absolute knowledge' to respond to a situation. For example, if I see someone dying from injuries on the side of the road, I might think 'maybe they're a Buddha so I don't need to help'. That would be wrong, because we need to respond to the conventional appearance of suffering which is a valid cognition. We can consider the story of Asanga and Buddha Maitreya who manifested as a female dog to arouse Asanga's compassion. Although the dog was a Buddha, he reacted appropriately to the appearance of suffering.
It's the same with the Dalai Lama - just because people think he's a Buddha shouldn't give him the opportunity to destroy the Dharma through sectarian actions. We give him this opportunity by not reacting appropriately to his actions by claiming that we don't have 'absolute knowledge'. Asanga didn't have absolute knowledge, but his actions were correct. It's also correct to oppose the Dalai Lama activities. There is a schism in the Sangha -that's an object of valid cognition, and everything should be done, individually and collectively, to heal these wounds by revealing the truth and removing political pollution from Buddhism.
So here's a likely truth: what if the Dalai Lama is an ordinary being with ordinary motivation who is wrecking the Dharma through personal and political ambitions? That possibility is not even countenanced by the people who post on this website. If you switch off your critical faculties, perhaps you are complicit in the destruction of the Dharma. That's a possibility that needs to be seriously considered as the consequences are enormous.
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Please be reminded that this forum has clear standing in regards to the Dalai Lama. With that said,differing views has been shared and we request that forum posters respect the mission and objective of this site. This site is not to be used as a hate site in anyway but to promote the protector.