dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Helena on July 20, 2010, 06:37:02 AM
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I remember reading it in the website itself. But I can't find the actual article to pull up. But as I searched all over the net, there are many sources already claiming the same - that the search for Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's reincarnation was banned. The below is just one of many source.
In fact, as I recalled correctly, much more information was shared in the 5th Dalai Lama's Biography. Stating how his followers actually murdered TDG, even went on to murder TDG's family members, took away their property and land, dismantling TDG's Labrang, and altered documents to diminish TDG's role or even existence. It was almost like now how TGIE is systematically trying to erase Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's names from everything.
Isn't it amazing how history repeats itself?
The reason I am sharing this is to offer some explanation to the speculation that there is no further reincarnation of TDG, etc. Because I was also getting confused by all the different comments going back and forth. So, I decided to find some info on my own.
I think the point here is that there is no search for TDG's reincarnation from then on, because it was banned. Not because of any other reason. Having said that, it does not mean that TDG did not reincarnate and return time and time again. Just because no one formally searched and recognised him does not mean he has stopped returning.
As many of the past documents have already been 'manipulated', I am not surprised to find that a lot of facts are not really facts. So, who can say for sure? Safe for the bio of 5th Dalai Lama, which spelt out a lot.
And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.
Manjushri can emanate in many forms, anytime, anywhere, and in several roles. Manjushri continues to, he doesn't stop.
Enlightened Beings will emanate as whatever forms that they deem most beneficial, whenever they need to. Different forms have different roles to play, for different specific functions.
HENCE, I think it is a big deal and it says a great deal that TDG is back. If this is true, and that he is really recognised by all the High Lamas and even the DS Oracle as stated in the newsflash - then it really is very positive news. It is enough to be just a slap on the TGIE's face for always thinking that they can snuff anyone or anything out. I see it as news of HOPE and the end of the fallacy that TGIE has built.
Naturally, I'd be happy and pray that all is true as stated in the website. Because it signals the end of this shadow play and all will come crashing down. Especially, the ban.
Here, I must stress again so that it is not misunderstood. I am not posting anything here to convince anyone, or impress anyone.
We are here to learn and discuss. I want to learn more and understand more too.
If anyone has more info to share and it enriches our understanding, please by all means, share away - but please backed up by more facts or information that you have gathered. That would truly be most helpful.
Thank you all in advance.
Source: http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/9840270
Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes that after the death of Dragpa Gyaltsen the search for his reincarnation was banned. Later on he appeared as Dorje Shugden.
Rivalry, Murder and Reincarnation
Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes "It should be recalled that he had been one of the candidates for the reincarnation of the Fourth Dalai Lama. As a result, he was always seen as a rival of the Fifth Dalai Lama though he invariably proclaimed himself a disciple of the latter. He came to be despised by a number of officials and especially the sDe-srid."Karmay, Samten G. "The arrow and the spindle : studies in history, myths, rituals and beliefs in Tibet.", page 514, Kathmandu : Mandala Book Point, 1998.]
Because Dragpa Gyaltsen's fame rivaled that of the Fifth Dalai Lama, Sonam Chöpel and some of the Dalai Lama's other attendants became extremely jealous and later murdered Dragpa Gyltsen. [ [http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/musicdelighting.pdf] p.95] .
Tibetan historian Samten Karmay further writes "The circumstances of his death, whether natural or not, were contested and part of the dGe-lugs-pa school believed that the official Norbu, acting under the sDe-srid's orders had assassinated him. Whatever the truth, the search for his reincarnation was banned, which suggests that the affair must have been quite serious indeed. In 1658, the actual building of the 'Upper Chamber' was destroyed and the stupa containing the remains of the Lama was supposedly thrown into the sKyid-chu river. It was then believed that the spirit of Grags-pa rgyal-mtshan had returned as a sort of 'protector of the Buddhist religion'."
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Thank you for this post.
You are right about all the going back and forth regarding the return of TDG...it can cause some confusion. Nevertheless, the news and all the big hoohah over it are very encouraging signs because it shows that this news is significant and many individuals and organizations have strong interest. This in turn reveals the significance of TDG's role for the Dharma in the past and the future.
Similarly, it is very humbling to experience the compassion and dedication TDK has towards the Dharma: coming back lifetime after lifetime without deserved recognized just to serve sentient beings and the Buddhadharma.
I look forward to the day the incarnation of the revered TDG reveals himself/herself and continue the powerful work in the forefront of the Dharma community. This may be the "perfect" timing with H.H making changes to the system of His institution as shared during an interview on His birthday. We may be so lucky as to witness the passing of the torch from one spectacular living Buddha to the next.
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We are here to learn and discuss. I want to learn more and understand more too.
If anyone has more info to share and it enriches our understanding, please by all means, share away - but please backed up by more facts or information that you have gathered. That would truly be most helpful.
So, I decided to find some info on my own.
Hi ST
it is so pleasant to see someone who is interested in doing some research.
In fact, as I recalled correctly, much more information was shared in the 5th Dalai Lama's Biography. Stating how his followers actually murdered TDG, even went on to murder TDG's family members, took away their property and land, dismantling TDG's Labrang, and altered documents to diminish TDG's role or even existence. It was almost like now how TGIE is systematically trying to erase Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's names from everything.
Isn't it amazing how history repeats itself?
truly amazing. The thing I find perhaps most amazing is that they think they are going to get away with it. They might even, if the "let's keep quiet" set gets their way.
And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.
Well, if you think about this, it doesn't really make sense.
TDG and DS are the same continuum, so TDG became DS.
There is a casue and effect realtionship there. The mind of TDG was the substantial cause of the mind of DS, and as Chandrakirti very clearly explains in Madhyamakavatara, the seed can no longer exist at the time of the sprout. So, given that Dorje Shugden exists, we must conclude it is impossible for TDG to do anything at all, as the seed has disappeared to become the sprout. If you believe DS can manifest and function, then it becomes nonsense to say that TDG is functioning.
HENCE, I think it is a big deal and it says a great deal that TDG is back. If this is true, and that he is really recognised by all the High Lamas and even the DS Oracle as stated in the newsflash - then it really is very positive news. It is enough to be just a slap on the TGIE's face for always thinking that they can snuff anyone or anything out. I see it as news of HOPE and the end of the fallacy that TGIE has built.
There is nothing I would like more than to see the TGIE'S lies exposed AS lies. But if we build our case on things that don[t make sense, we will b e exposed to ridicule and our points will be lost
Naturally, I'd be happy and pray that all is true as stated in the website. Because it signals the end of this shadow play and all will come crashing down. Especially, the ban.
we are of one mind on this one.
All that having been said, let's take a look at your research.....
I think the point here is that there is no search for TDG's reincarnation from then on, because it was banned.
so here we have the probandum
Not because of any other reason. Having said that,...
here we have an assertion without any reason offered.
it does not mean that TDG did not reincarnate and return time and time again. Just because no one formally searched and recognised him does not mean he has stopped returning.
It is true that when a tulku is not recognized, it does not mean that he does not continue to perform his or her beneficial activities.
Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes that after the death of Dragpa Gyaltsen the search for his reincarnation was banned. Later on he appeared as Dorje Shugden.
So here we have the reason. It is true because Samten Karmay says so. Is this a valid reason? If you read what Karmay wrote, you will see there is no citation, no reference. It may just be his own opinion, it may be that he didn't understand what happened. So still, we have nothing proven, we just see that someone wrote it down somewhere.
Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes "It should be recalled that he had been one of the candidates for the reincarnation of the Fourth Dalai Lama. As a result, he was always seen as a rival of the Fifth Dalai Lama though he invariably proclaimed himself a disciple of the latter. He came to be despised by a number of officials and especially the sDe-srid."Karmay, Samten G. "The arrow and the spindle : studies in history, myths, rituals and beliefs in Tibet.", page 514, Kathmandu : Mandala Book Point, 1998.]
....Because Dragpa Gyaltsen's fame rivaled that of the Fifth Dalai Lama, Sonam Chöpel and some of the Dalai Lama's other attendants became extremely jealous and later murdered Dragpa Gyltsen. [ [http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/musicdelighting.pdf] p.95] .
I agree with everything here because it can be backed up with several independent sources
Tibetan historian Samten Karmay further writes "The circumstances of his death, whether natural or not, were contested and part of the dGe-lugs-pa school believed that the official Norbu, acting under the sDe-srid's orders had assassinated him. Whatever the truth, the search for his reincarnation was banned, which suggests that the affair must have been quite serious indeed. In 1658, the actual building of the 'Upper Chamber' was destroyed and the stupa containing the remains of the Lama was supposedly thrown into the sKyid-chu river. It was then believed that the spirit of Grags-pa rgyal-mtshan had returned as a sort of 'protector of the Buddhist religion'."
So here we have to use critical intelligence. Samten Karmay claims the search for the reincarnation was banned. We should not take this at face value because the unsupported words of scholars, as we know better than most, can be completely incorrect (see George Dreyfus for many, many hilarious examples)
So we should investigate.
What as the view of those who despised TDG? That he had become a spirit. What was the view of those who had faith in him? That he had become a Dhamapala. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to say the reincarnation was banned, it was simply not sought. Why? no-one in the equation believed there was a reincarnation. So they dismantled Zimkhang Gong because there was no longer a Zimkhang Gongma, etc.
Banned means an official edict that one must not do something. But there would not be an edict against something that no-one is attempting.
In order to show there was a ban, you should show evidence of such a thing. SO far there is none forthcoming, so intelligent people should view any such claims with skeptisicm. Why believe something that makes no sense and is not supported by any evidence?
cheers,
cc
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I look forward to the day the incarnation of the revered TDG reveals himself/herself and continue the powerful work in the forefront of the Dharma community. This may be the "perfect" timing with H.H making changes to the system of His institution as shared during an interview on His birthday. We may be so lucky as to witness the passing of the torch from one spectacular living Buddha to the next.
I think we can rest assured that DL will not be passing the power to and "TDG" or any Dorje Shugden practitioner for that matter. Where do people come up with these fantastic notions?!?!
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I remember reading it in the website itself. But I can't find the actual article to pull up. But as I searched all over the net, there are many sources already claiming the same - that the search for Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's reincarnation was banned. The below is just one of many source.
In fact, as I recalled correctly, much more information was shared in the 5th Dalai Lama's Biography. Stating how his followers actually murdered TDG, even went on to murder TDG's family members, took away their property and land, dismantling TDG's Labrang, and altered documents to diminish TDG's role or even existence. It was almost like now how TGIE is systematically trying to erase Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's names from everything.
Isn't it amazing how history repeats itself?
The reason I am sharing this is to offer some explanation to the speculation that there is no further reincarnation of TDG, etc. Because I was also getting confused by all the different comments going back and forth. So, I decided to find some info on my own.
I think the point here is that there is no search for TDG's reincarnation from then on, because it was banned. Not because of any other reason. Having said that, it does not mean that TDG did not reincarnate and return time and time again. Just because no one formally searched and recognised him does not mean he has stopped returning.
As many of the past documents have already been 'manipulated', I am not surprised to find that a lot of facts are not really facts. So, who can say for sure? Safe for the bio of 5th Dalai Lama, which spelt out a lot.
And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.
Manjushri can emanate in many forms, anytime, anywhere, and in several roles. Manjushri continues to, he doesn't stop.
Enlightened Beings will emanate as whatever forms that they deem most beneficial, whenever they need to. Different forms have different roles to play, for different specific functions.
HENCE, I think it is a big deal and it says a great deal that TDG is back. If this is true, and that he is really recognised by all the High Lamas and even the DS Oracle as stated in the newsflash - then it really is very positive news. It is enough to be just a slap on the TGIE's face for always thinking that they can snuff anyone or anything out. I see it as news of HOPE and the end of the fallacy that TGIE has built.
Naturally, I'd be happy and pray that all is true as stated in the website. Because it signals the end of this shadow play and all will come crashing down. Especially, the ban.
Here, I must stress again so that it is not misunderstood. I am not posting anything here to convince anyone, or impress anyone.
We are here to learn and discuss. I want to learn more and understand more too.
If anyone has more info to share and it enriches our understanding, please by all means, share away - but please backed up by more facts or information that you have gathered. That would truly be most helpful.
Thank you all in advance.
Source: [url]http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/9840270[/url]
Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes that after the death of Dragpa Gyaltsen the search for his reincarnation was banned. Later on he appeared as Dorje Shugden.
Rivalry, Murder and Reincarnation
Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes "It should be recalled that he had been one of the candidates for the reincarnation of the Fourth Dalai Lama. As a result, he was always seen as a rival of the Fifth Dalai Lama though he invariably proclaimed himself a disciple of the latter. He came to be despised by a number of officials and especially the sDe-srid."Karmay, Samten G. "The arrow and the spindle : studies in history, myths, rituals and beliefs in Tibet.", page 514, Kathmandu : Mandala Book Point, 1998.]
Because Dragpa Gyaltsen's fame rivaled that of the Fifth Dalai Lama, Sonam Chöpel and some of the Dalai Lama's other attendants became extremely jealous and later murdered Dragpa Gyltsen. [ [http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/musicdelighting.pdf] p.95] .
Tibetan historian Samten Karmay further writes "The circumstances of his death, whether natural or not, were contested and part of the dGe-lugs-pa school believed that the official Norbu, acting under the sDe-srid's orders had assassinated him. Whatever the truth, the search for his reincarnation was banned, which suggests that the affair must have been quite serious indeed. In 1658, the actual building of the 'Upper Chamber' was destroyed and the stupa containing the remains of the Lama was supposedly thrown into the sKyid-chu river. It was then believed that the spirit of Grags-pa rgyal-mtshan had returned as a sort of 'protector of the Buddhist religion'."
What a wonderful post. Thank you.
Ban or not, Tulkus the level of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen will always return again and again. They will never stop till the end of samsara.
it is very open and dharmic of the Shar Gaden Monks to keep an open mind and not reject Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation. I really follow their way of thinking and approach. Since Tenzin Sungrab I assume mentioned he recieved this information off this website, it shows that the monks there somehow respect what is written on this website.
TK
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And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.
Manjushri can emanate in many forms, anytime, anywhere, and in several roles. Manjushri continues to, he doesn't stop.
Enlightened Beings will emanate as whatever forms that they deem most beneficial, whenever they need to. Different forms have different roles to play, for different specific functions.
I was having a relaxing evening yesterday, chatting with friends and we discussed the return of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. We got into a bit of debate over this very point - that if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?
Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.
if it is beneficial to many sentient beings for TDG to reincarnate, i believe he would have. Otherwise why would the Buddha Manjushri's emanation reappear? Buddhas manifest everything for a purpose.
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if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?
Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.
Correct, Manjushri can emanate, TDG cannot reincarnate, sorry. Developing discrimination will help you see the difference. Ignoring an argument does not mean it isn't there.
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I was having a relaxing evening yesterday, chatting with friends and we discussed the return of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. We got into a bit of debate over this very point - that if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?
Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.
if it is beneficial to many sentient beings for TDG to reincarnate, i believe he would have. Otherwise why would the Buddha Manjushri's emanation reappear? Buddhas manifest everything for a purpose.
I like what you said there. It is not whether TDG can or cannot emanate. It is whether he would have. Let's take a look at a few possible reasons why he might have decided to pay us a visit again (before anyone jumps on me, let's take it as a fun hypothesis ok. Can't we all be friends?)
1. To lead us to the next great renaissance of Buddhism
2. To be living proof of the TGIE's erroneous ways
3. To be a beacon of hope for those who have been affected, downtrodden by the ban
4. He was an object of refuge and would return again and again to continue benefiting those who had taken refuge in him
and a few reasons why he wouldnt
1. DS is enough
2. He knew many people would not believe it was really him
3. He would have to put up with a lot of flak from the TGIE
4. He would not be able to claim his rightful place, thus forcing him to work undercover and starting from the ground up again, slowing down his work
If he did show up, it must really be him - a great Bodhisattva, a protector of Tsongkhapa's teachings. He would have to work so much harder than if he just hung around in Tushita heaven.
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And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.
Manjushri can emanate in many forms, anytime, anywhere, and in several roles. Manjushri continues to, he doesn't stop.
Enlightened Beings will emanate as whatever forms that they deem most beneficial, whenever they need to. Different forms have different roles to play, for different specific functions.
I was having a relaxing evening yesterday, chatting with friends and we discussed the return of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. We got into a bit of debate over this very point - that if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?
Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.
if it is beneficial to many sentient beings for TDG to reincarnate, i believe he would have. Otherwise why would the Buddha Manjushri's emanation reappear? Buddhas manifest everything for a purpose.
Definitely TDG can incarnate as and when he likes. There's no issues with that. No one can stop him. He is motivated by Bodhicitta and overall need.
tk
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And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.
Manjushri can emanate in many forms, anytime, anywhere, and in several roles. Manjushri continues to, he doesn't stop.
Enlightened Beings will emanate as whatever forms that they deem most beneficial, whenever they need to. Different forms have different roles to play, for different specific functions.
If you think about this, it doesn't really make sense.
TDG and DS are the same continuum, so TDG became DS.
There is a casue and effect realtionship there. The mind of TDG was the substantial cause of the mind of DS, and as Chandrakirti very clearly explains in Madhyamakavatara, the seed can no longer exist at the time of the sprout. So, given that Dorje Shugden exists, we must conclude it is impossible for TDG to do anything at all, as the seed has disappeared to become the sprout. If you believe DS can manifest and function, then it becomes nonsense to say that TDG is functioning.
I was having a relaxing evening yesterday, chatting with friends and we discussed the return of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. We got into a bit of debate over this very point - that if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?
Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.
if it is beneficial to many sentient beings for TDG to reincarnate, i believe he would have. Otherwise why would the Buddha Manjushri's emanation reappear? Buddhas manifest everything for a purpose.
Definitely TDG can incarnate as and when he likes. There's no issues with that. No one can stop him. He is motivated by Bodhicitta and overall need.
tk
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I look forward to the day the incarnation of the revered TDG reveals himself/herself and continue the powerful work in the forefront of the Dharma community. This may be the "perfect" timing with H.H making changes to the system of His institution as shared during an interview on His birthday. We may be so lucky as to witness the passing of the torch from one spectacular living Buddha to the next.
Dalai Lama will not pass any torch to Dorje Shugden lamas, but he doesn't need to. The many shugden lamas will light their own torch and will become leaders in their own dharma communities in time. But I salute your positive outlook. Whether it will come true or not, doesn't matter. Keep up the positive thoughts. We all need that.
tk
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I look forward to the day the incarnation of the revered TDG reveals himself/herself and continue the powerful work in the forefront of the Dharma community. This may be the "perfect" timing with H.H making changes to the system of His institution as shared during an interview on His birthday. We may be so lucky as to witness the passing of the torch from one spectacular living Buddha to the next.
Dalai Lama will not pass any torch to Dorje Shugden lamas, but he doesn't need to. The many shugden lamas will light their own torch and will become leaders in their own dharma communities in time.
Totally agree, well said.
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if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?
Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.
Correct, Manjushri can emanate, TDG cannot reincarnate, sorry. Developing discrimination will help you see the difference. Ignoring an argument does not mean it isn't there.
If TDG is an emanation of Manjushri, I do not see why TDG cannot emanate again. The statement made by crazycloud that Manjushri can emanate , TDG cannot recarnate does not make sense to me.
TDG and Manjushri is of the same mind continium, so what stop TDG from emanating again and again? As long as there is benefits to sentient beings, Bodhisattva like TDG will continue to emanate.
Triesa
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Thank you all for taking the time to answer my thread. I am very grateful indeed.
I am of the same mind sets who view that any Enlightened Beings and Buddhas can choose to emanate at anytime, anywhere and even in several forms or places at the same time - if there is a need for them to do so.
Saying that they can't, would be way too limiting on their "powers/abilities."
I did say that there are many sources out there, I just chose to quote one. If we regard these as just words or points of views of individuals and so we don't need to respect or listen to any of them, then we can surely say the same about all oral transmissions, and living transmissions that are the very core of the Gelugpa Lineage. I guess what makes the most distinct difference is who they are, the speakers, the authors - if they are credible.
I would say, the Tibetan Historian, Samten Karmay would be credible enough. Certainly more so than me, for sure. But then again, I would say that because I have compared his "story" with many other "stories" which uphold the same theory about the ban being enforced to this day.
I would say that the success of the ban may be that some people have actually begin to believe that TDG can never return. I am also inclined to believe that it is precisely their intention for many future generations to completely forget about TDG until the name does not even exist and no one believes that this great Dharma King is of any value to us. So, I believe if we think that way, then it is clear that whatever they have done 350 years ago, however much they have erased - have certainly done its damage that lasts to this day.
In this respect, I can understand why it is so much more important for TDG to return and make his announcement publicly "this time around". There is so much at stake – the entire Gelugpa Lineage, Lama Tsongkhapa’s Teachings, Nagajuna’s Views, etc.
To me - DS plays the ever important role of the Dharma Protector, but TDG is the Dharma Holder of all the above. Hence, his role is to propagate all the above, along with all the remaining “Living Buddhas” of our time. There aren’t that many left. Someone has to teach so that none of these jewels will be lost forever. Hence, DS and TDG are both vital at this time, at this juncture when things seem to be ‘changing’.
Of course, this is only my personal ‘speculative’ view. So, I am not stating that it is a fact. Naturally, when new information and facts come to light, I will have to also re-adjust my view accordingly. I have no wish to remain stubbornly ignorant.
Which is why I really appreciate this Forum - this space allows me to air my views, learn, share and also get enriched (without rude condescending remarks).
Thank you all again and especially, for your kind patience with a newbie like me. Have a wonderful day!
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if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?
Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.
Correct, Manjushri can emanate, TDG cannot reincarnate, sorry. Developing discrimination will help you see the difference. Ignoring an argument does not mean it isn't there.
I'm not ignoring an argument. It is my understanding of the situation. I'm not sure what you mean by developing discrimination. Please explain?
I see Manjushri and TDG having the same enlightened energy, which is why I said that TDG can reincarnate. I believe that as an emanation of Manjushri, TDG can even reincarnate as many forms, though can and would are different things. And that there is no restriction on his emanations through space and time for reasons already stated.
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I would say that the success of the ban may be that some people have actually begin to believe that TDG can never return. I am also inclined to believe that it is precisely their intention for many future generations to completely forget about TDG until the name does not even exist and no one believes that this great Dharma King is of any value to us. So, I believe if we think that way, then it is clear that whatever they have done 350 years ago, however much they have erased - have certainly done its damage that lasts to this day.
Some concludes that there are no incarnations or possibilities of the return of TDG because there hasn't been one for the last 350 years. It is illogical to me. The enlightened minds can emanate whenever, however as required. With that said, I'm keeping an open mind as to the announcement of TDG's return.
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if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?
Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.
Correct, Manjushri can emanate, TDG cannot reincarnate, sorry. Developing discrimination will help you see the difference. Ignoring an argument does not mean it isn't there.
I'm not ignoring an argument. It is my understanding of the situation. I'm not sure what you mean by developing discrimination. Please explain?
I see Manjushri and TDG having the same enlightened energy, which is why I said that TDG can reincarnate. I believe that as an emanation of Manjushri, TDG can even reincarnate as many forms, though can and would are different things. And that there is no restriction on his emanations through space and time for reasons already stated.
Hi WB
I agree that Manjushri and TDG having the same enlightened energy, becasue TDG is an emanation of Manjushris mind. like if you were to make a sock-puppet, this emanation would actually be controlled by your mind. SO if you take off the puppet and then put it back on again, the puppet has not reincarnated, it is merely another emanation.
If TDG was a worldly being of a Bodhisattva on the grounds, he could take rebirth. But if he beacme Dorje Shugden, then Dorje Shugden can emanate, but TDG is finished since his continuum has become Dorje Shugden.
I agree with you that there are no restrictions on the emanations of a Budha, it's just that if TDG has become Buddha Dorje Shugden, there will be no more emanations of TDG because he is gone, there will be emanations of DS only.
For example, we no longer say Je Tsongkhapa's previous incarnations can emanate, becasue they are gone, having become Je Tsongkhapa.
Refer to the seed/sprout analogy posted earlier, Chandrakirti used it because it is very instructive, and will increase our discriminating wisdom if we make effort to understand it.
cheers
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I agree that Manjushri and TDG having the same enlightened energy, becasue TDG is an emanation of Manjushris mind. like if you were to make a sock-puppet, this emanation would actually be controlled by your mind. SO if you take off the puppet and then put it back on again, the puppet has not reincarnated, it is merely another emanation.
Ok... i think it's a matter of definitions. My understanding was that an incarnation was a rebirth of a being, while an emanation is an expression whether form or formless of a being. i.e. Manjushri can emanate as a house or a rock. But Manjushri does not reincarnate as a rock.
If TDG was a worldly being of a Bodhisattva on the grounds, he could take rebirth. But if he beacme Dorje Shugden, then Dorje Shugden can emanate, but TDG is finished since his continuum has become Dorje Shugden.
If TDG is an emanation of Manjushri, and this emanation continues to become Dorje Shugden, eg
Dulzin ---> Panchen Sonam Drakpa ---> TDG ---> DS
and all the above are Manjushri... then isn't it possible that
Dulzin ---> Panchen Sonam Drakpa -->TDG --->DS
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New Incarnation
Manjushri is formless and limitless... so the energy which was TDG can be gathered again?
That's why there are some beings who have multiple incarnations?
I agree with you that there are no restrictions on the emanations of a Budha, it's just that if TDG has become Buddha Dorje Shugden, there will be no more emanations of TDG because he is gone, there will be emanations of DS only.
For example, we no longer say Je Tsongkhapa's previous incarnations can emanate, becasue they are gone, having become Je Tsongkhapa.
Refer to the seed/sprout analogy posted earlier, Chandrakirti used it because it is very instructive, and will increase our discriminating wisdom if we make effort to understand it.
cheers
I contemplated the seed/sprout analogy earlier and can i ask if Chandrakirti used that analogy with reference to this topic of reincarnation of attained Beings?
I understand the analogy - but since we are not talking of ordinary seeds but enlightened Beings, could they be beyond the limits of what we understand?
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I've been reading WB's comments on this matter and I think what she says holds enough weight in debate that TDG is really back in blood and flesh in order to benefit many.
Having put that theory in mind, the fact that some ignorrant minister actually wiped out TDG's name in the lineage doesn't mean TDG can be silenced so easily. TDG is the standing truth hundreds and thousands of DS practitioners are now who they are today - a better person. How can it be possible that TDG died and forsake this chance to reincarnate back to help more of us here in this suffering world?
Let's think about it objectively, in every office there's a person who's a pain in the a** and in every family there's a black sheep. Then why can't the Tib Govt be silly and anal enough to have a really annoying figure who switched history around to his/her benefit and led to this?
Well, even with that person around, it sure didn't deter our lord and Master's Bodhichitta intention to return and benefit.
what say u?
H1N!
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Well, it is clear that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is enlightened and hence he had assumed the form of Dorje Shugden who is also enlightened. Both Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and Dorje Shugden are emanations of Manjushri and Manjushri is a Buddha. Hence, Manjushri's emanations are infinite in number and he is able to simultaneously emanate as Lama Tsongkhapa and Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen. If Manjushri is able to do that, he is also able to emanate Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation simultaneously with Dorje Shugden.
As for Chandrakirti's analogy, I doubt it refers to enlightened beings. It sounds more like it refers to unenlightened beings like us because we are bound by karma and our ordinary view of reality. While Buddhas like Manjushri, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and Dorje Shugden are only bound by Bodhichitta and are free to emanate and incarnate at will because they had already realised emptiness. To say that he can't emanate again limits the power of a Buddha and so Manjushri wasn't able to emanate as Lama Tsongkhapa and Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen simultaneously.
Therefore, the possibility of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation is very high and I hope to meet and receive his blessings and teachings one day.
Big Uncle.
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Manjushri's emanations are infinite in number and he is able to simultaneously emanate as Lama Tsongkhapa and Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen. If Manjushri is able to do that, he is also able to emanate Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation simultaneously with Dorje Shugden.
This is very clear. Thank you.
From what I understand, it's not that a being can only arose/incarnated directly as one other being. I.e. TDG doesn't just incarnate/arise as Dorje Shugden alone. As enlightened beings, each incarnation/emanation can further emanate into multiple beings. So, as WB and big uncle have already explained, it is entirely possible that TDG simultaneously arose as Dorje Shugden and incarnated as another (or several other) being (s)... which has continued to incarnated until today.
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Thank you all for sharing so much info.
It'd be good if CC can confirm the reference to Chandrakirti as well. We would also be able to learn something more to what we have been discussing.
In any case, I await to see the actual TDG in this lifetime and see what he will do.
As long as there are more ammunition to help us and our cause, it's all good to me.
The faster this shadow play comes down and the whole controversy is over, the better it is for everyone!
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I agree that Manjushri and TDG having the same enlightened energy, becasue TDG is an emanation of Manjushris mind. like if you were to make a sock-puppet, this emanation would actually be controlled by your mind. SO if you take off the puppet and then put it back on again, the puppet has not reincarnated, it is merely another emanation.
Ok... i think it's a matter of definitions. My understanding was that an incarnation was a rebirth of a being, while an emanation is an expression whether form or formless of a being. i.e. Manjushri can emanate as a house or a rock. But Manjushri does not reincarnate as a rock.
If TDG was a worldly being of a Bodhisattva on the grounds, he could take rebirth. But if he beacme Dorje Shugden, then Dorje Shugden can emanate, but TDG is finished since his continuum has become Dorje Shugden.
If TDG is an emanation of Manjushri, and this emanation continues to become Dorje Shugden, eg
Dulzin ---> Panchen Sonam Drakpa ---> TDG ---> DS
and all the above are Manjushri... then isn't it possible that
Dulzin ---> Panchen Sonam Drakpa -->TDG --->DS
|
New Incarnation
Manjushri is formless and limitless... so the energy which was TDG can be gathered again?
That's why there are some beings who have multiple incarnations?
I agree with you that there are no restrictions on the emanations of a Budha, it's just that if TDG has become Buddha Dorje Shugden, there will be no more emanations of TDG because he is gone, there will be emanations of DS only.
For example, we no longer say Je Tsongkhapa's previous incarnations can emanate, becasue they are gone, having become Je Tsongkhapa.
Refer to the seed/sprout analogy posted earlier, Chandrakirti used it because it is very instructive, and will increase our discriminating wisdom if we make effort to understand it.
cheers
I contemplated the seed/sprout analogy earlier and can i ask if Chandrakirti used that analogy with reference to this topic of reincarnation of attained Beings?
I understand the analogy - but since we are not talking of ordinary seeds but enlightened Beings, could they be beyond the limits of what we understand?
HI WB
can i ask if Chandrakirti used that analogy with reference to this topic of reincarnation of attained Beings?
no, Chandrakirti's reasoning was presented in the context of selflessness, and properly applies to all cause and effect realtionships.
[/quote]
Dulzin ---> Panchen Sonam Drakpa -->TDG --->DS
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New Incarnation[/quote]
if you make an honest effort to understand the analogy, you will see very clearly why the above diagram makes no sense.
I understand the analogy - but since we are not talking of ordinary seeds but enlightened Beings, could they be beyond the limits of what we understand?
I can only speak for myself when I say that enlightened beings are definitely beyond the limits of what I personally understand.
Using this as an reasoning to justify an argument is very low philosophy indeed, however, and can be seen to legitimize any fanciful conclusion conjured up in the imagination of anyone anywhere. I'm sure you see the force of my point, no?
At this point the argument is academic, and if it suits you and others here to be inspired by your take on things, far be it for me to stand in the way.
cheers
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In any case, I await to see the actual TDG in this lifetime and see what he will do.
One thing he definitely CANNOT do is be a friend of the Dalai Lama.
As long as there are more ammunition to help us and our cause, it's all good to me.
here are my prayers that this ammunition does not blow up in your face
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As the Enlightened People do seem to emanate, incarnate, rebithtake, tulkuake, and so forth, I just wonder, that whwre has the Shakyamuni gone?
(This was not a frivolous question. I really wonder...)
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As the Enlightened People do seem to emanate, incarnate, rebithtake, tulkuake, and so forth, I just wonder, that whwre has the Shakyamuni gone?
(This was not a frivolous question. I really wonder...)
It doesn't matter where Shakyamuni has gone. Panchen,Trijang, Zong, Dromo Geshe, Zemey, Tendar, Gonsar, Pabongka, Dagom, Draknak, Gangchen, Denma Gonsa, Sogpu Guru Deva tulkus are all here. All these great incarnations are here and still incarnating doing immaculate work over and over again. Perhaps Shakyamuni could have incarnated as one of them. :)
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Insert Quote
As the Enlightened People do seem to emanate, incarnate, rebithtake, tulkuake, and so forth, I just wonder, that whwre has the Shakyamuni gone?
(This was not a frivolous question. I really wonder...)
That's what concerns me about this. Given an inch they want a mile. So once enough people have accepted that this is Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen then they or someone else will try to usurp the Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation title, then the Buddha Shakyamuni title. I don't see this as a good thing.
You don't need to concern yourself at all on how many miles THEY want. No one usurps. Once you have accepted or not accepted the Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen incarnation, it makes no difference to the incarnation, his students and others. If he is real, he will do works to spread the dharma of Tsongkapa and that's it. If he doesn't do great works and damages the dharma, he goes to the three lower realms. Our job is to keep open mind and don't worry about the 'mileage'. So you don't have to give a mile, JUST GIVE AN INCH.
:)
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Dear CC,
Would like to ask why you think that the reincarnation of TDG cannot be a friend of DL?
I thank you for your prayers, btw. Very kind.
In any case, I await to see the actual TDG in this lifetime and see what he will do.
One thing he definitely CANNOT do is be a friend of the Dalai Lama.
As long as there are more ammunition to help us and our cause, it's all good to me.
here are my prayers that this ammunition does not blow up in your face
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Dear Trinley Kalsang,
I am sorry but I do not understand your statement at all. May be I am really missing something. I don't see it. I really do not see how they would want a mile out of what and how would they try to usurp Tsongkhapa reincarnation title at all, in any way?
Could you please explain in a way that allows the rest of us to understand.
Much appreciated.
Insert Quote
As the Enlightened People do seem to emanate, incarnate, rebithtake, tulkuake, and so forth, I just wonder, that whwre has the Shakyamuni gone?
(This was not a frivolous question. I really wonder...)
That's what concerns me about this. Given an inch they want a mile. So once enough people have accepted that this is Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen then they or someone else will try to usurp the Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation title, then the Buddha Shakyamuni title. I don't see this as a good thing.
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“TDG and DS are the same continuum, so TDG became DS.
There is a casue and effect realtionship there. The mind of TDG was the substantial cause of the mind of DS, and as Chandrakirti very clearly explains in Madhyamakavatara, the seed can no longer exist at the time of the sprout. So, given that Dorje Shugden exists, we must conclude it is impossible for TDG to do anything at all, as the seed has disappeared to become the sprout. If you believe DS can manifest and function, then it becomes nonsense to say that TDG is functioning.” -Crazycloud
This is getting interesting. The Gelug lineage views Je Tsongkhapa as Manjudshri or emanation of Manjushri. According to the bio of Je Tsongkhapa , Je Rinpoche conversed with Manjushri during his retreat. If we follow Crazycloud's argument , this wouldn’t had been possible.
However, the bio of Je Tsongkhapa is accepted without any challenge. Based on this, I would think it’s completely possible that even if DS and TDG are of the same mental continuum , they can manifest at the same time as they have attained the ultimate nature ,therefore beyond the law of cause and effect .
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This is getting interesting. The Gelug lineage views Je Tsongkhapa as Manjudshri or emanation of Manjushri. According to the bio of Je Tsongkhapa , Je Rinpoche conversed with Manjushri during his retreat. If we follow Crazycloud's argument , this wouldn’t had been possible.
However, the bio of Je Tsongkhapa is accepted without any challenge. Based on this, I would think it’s completely possible that even if DS and TDG are of the same mental continuum , they can manifest at the same time as they have attained the ultimate nature ,therefore beyond the law of cause and effect .
What clear logic. I like this. I believe we cannot judge or box in what high level being can incarnate and when. Again, whether we believe or not will not affect them at all. If this is the real TDG incarnation and confirmed by senior lamas, oracles or Shar Gaden/Serpom, then I will definitely accept. Who am I to be right and all of them wrong.
tk
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This is getting interesting. The Gelug lineage views Je Tsongkhapa as Manjudshri or emanation of Manjushri. According to the bio of Je Tsongkhapa , Je Rinpoche conversed with Manjushri during his retreat. If we follow Crazycloud's argument , this wouldn’t had been possible.
Thanks for giving such a clear example.
Also, Dulzin was believed to have been an emanation of Tsongkhapa himself (and their guru-disciple relationship was exemplary for the humility they showed)
Again, this would not have been possible if we follow CC's argument - as they both arose at the same time (sprout) from the same mindstream (seed)
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Thank you, Kurava. This explanation makes sense to me, and I can definitely relate to it.
This is getting interesting. The Gelug lineage views Je Tsongkhapa as Manjudshri or emanation of Manjushri. According to the bio of Je Tsongkhapa , Je Rinpoche conversed with Manjushri during his retreat. If we follow Crazycloud's argument , this wouldn’t had been possible.
However, the bio of Je Tsongkhapa is accepted without any challenge. Based on this, I would think it’s completely possible that even if DS and TDG are of the same mental continuum , they can manifest at the same time as they have attained the ultimate nature ,therefore beyond the law of cause and effect .
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Some concludes that there are no incarnations or possibilities of the return of TDG because there hasn't been one for the last 350 years. It is illogical to me. The enlightened minds can emanate whenever, however as required. With that said, I'm keeping an open mind as to the announcement of TDG's return.
As much as the anti Shugdenites want to believe that TDG is evil or that his incarnation was banned, his incarnation is not. He is just not called the Dragpa Gyaltsen line anymore but with another title: Ngari Rinpoche.
Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself wrote poetic verses mentioning that in future he will incarnate everywhere, not only in Tibet (stated in the introduction to the be.bum). A more recent scholar, one of this century, Kachen Sopala from Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, claims that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen reincarnated in the incarnation line of Ngari Tulkus. The present Ngari Rinpoche is the brother of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama.
What does the supports of the Dalai Lama say to this now? The very figure they have been trying to put down is the Dalai Lama's own brother!! I would like to see how do they reconcile to this fact.
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There's quite a lot of known incarnations of Dorje Shugden running around and performing various roles in the grander scheme of things. We know that traditionally, Samdhong Rinpoche is an emanation along with a brother of the Dalai Lama. I can't remember what's his name now.
I also heard of the wealthy Mongolian Guru Deva Rinpoche who sponsored a lot of Gaden, Sera and Drepung monasteries in India is the emanation of Gyenze, the wealth aspect of Dorje Shugden. There must be one mind incarnation of Dorje Shugden running around under a different incarnation name and I wonder who he is. I guess at this stage, it would be better for him to remain under covers. He might reveal himself if and when the ban gets lifted.
Since we have the emanation of Gyenze running around, I wonder if there are Tulkus of the other emanations running around. I would imagine the Trakse incarnation would be a powerful and awesome Lama. These are just some of the things that goes through my head from time to time. I thought it would be good food for thought.
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There's quite a lot of known incarnations of Dorje Shugden running around and performing various roles in the grander scheme of things. We know that traditionally, Samdhong Rinpoche is an emanation along with a brother of the Dalai Lama. I can't remember what's his name now.
That's Ngari Rinpoche, formerly known as Ngari Dragpa Gyaltsen is the Dalai Lama's brother. Ironic isnt it how things have turned out. Dorje Shugden probably has more emanations around, maybe not as Lamas, but he is certainly everywhere. Nobody knows who, but he is certainly around.
I also heard of the wealthy Mongolian Guru Deva Rinpoche who sponsored a lot of Gaden, Sera and Drepung monasteries in India is the emanation of Gyenze, the wealth aspect of Dorje Shugden. There must be one mind incarnation of Dorje Shugden running around under a different incarnation name and I wonder who he is. I guess at this stage, it would be better for him to remain under covers. He might reveal himself if and when the ban gets lifted.
The sad part is, even though Guru Deva Rinpoche did so much for the 3 great monasteries, he was not thanked at all by the monasteries but instead ostracized because he practiced Dorje Shugden. Then, return all the sponsored items if you truly hate him. Arent you afraid that his contributions are tainted by Dorje Shugden, CTA? If so, stop using them and see how you survive.
Since we have the emanation of Gyenze running around, I wonder if there are Tulkus of the other emanations running around. I would imagine the Trakse incarnation would be a powerful and awesome Lama. These are just some of the things that goes through my head from time to time. I thought it would be good food for thought.
There are many more incarnations around, just not identified. The trakze form, i suppose, would be a very fierce mahasiddha that will be extremely fearless in doing the right thing.
I replied to this thread to actually tie up loose ends and as a conclusion to the thread's posers and questions as new information has been discovered since. Lets hope people will learn when they read about this thread :)
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Dear Helena,
Thank you for the "brain storming" type of posting. It caught my eye on this topic.
It is very true indeed. I was assuming that Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen will not incarnate because H.H has became a Dharma Protector.
This post, just as what Helena have said about the emanation,
If H.H Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen "purposely Die" in a tragic way just to be a Dharma Protector, it is impossible H.H will not emanate or reincarnate. And, it is also impossible that the Tibetan Monastery will not try to trace H.H Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen incarnation.
The other thought that stirred up my curiosity is, was there any stupa for H.H Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen? And, what has happened to the Stupa? If in the stupa has have ashes, where are the ashes now?
If there is an oracle of H.H, don't you think the oracle will definitely pointed out where is H.H now?
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Insert Quote
As the Enlightened People do seem to emanate, incarnate, rebithtake, tulkuake, and so forth, I just wonder, that whwre has the Shakyamuni gone?
Buddha Shakyamuni emanated as Nagajurna, Guru Rinpoche, Vajradhara, Tsongkhapa and all the HYT deities. It's a question that can be easily answered by someone with a little knowledge on Buddha's nature and how he can appear in different forms to benefit others.
(This was not a frivolous question. I really wonder...)
That's what concerns me about this. Given an inch they want a mile. So once enough people have accepted that this is Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen then they or someone else will try to usurp the Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation title, then the Buddha Shakyamuni title. I don't see this as a good thing.
Titles are just titles and mere labels to impress the simple and superficial minds of the some that require it. Tulkus do not need a title to start benefitting others, they only need themselves. I have seen tulkus who do so much work for others even before they are recognized. It is not a power or ego thing. The title only allows a tulku to accelerate his or her Dharma work, thats all, but it does not mean they're only a tulku only when recognized.
You don't need to concern yourself at all on how many miles THEY want. No one usurps. Once you have accepted or not accepted the Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen incarnation, it makes no difference to the incarnation, his students and others. If he is real, he will do works to spread the dharma of Tsongkapa and that's it. If he doesn't do great works and damages the dharma, he goes to the three lower realms. Our job is to keep open mind and don't worry about the 'mileage'. So you don't have to give a mile, JUST GIVE AN INCH.
:)
hear hear! this is one of the most reasonable post that I have read in this thread. Why would tulkus want to compete for a title? If they do, then they're not tulkus, just ordinary people like you and me who only pangs after the 8 worldly concerns. So why do they then deserve our respect?
This thread is rather old but I do find interesting that people would see tulkus are like regular folks. If you see tulkus as regular people with concerns for the 8 worldly dharmas, then why go for them for teachings? pick the non tulkus then.
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:P All beings have the emanation of Buddha, whereas Buddha and/or enlightened beings may reincarnate as form based on ripen conditions that may or may not be recognized by beings. Nonetheless, Buddha said living beings' parents are the living buddha. :D
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I kinda stumbled into this post again and I do have something to add.
I am starting to feel that all of these bans were put on by CTA instead of the Dalai Lama. How can a mere government of laypeople ban a high and very attained Lama from reincarnating? You gotta be kidding me, somehow! All of the lamas that they have banned in the past, including Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, Chankya Rolpa Dorje, Taranatha, Reting and Sharmapa came back anyway. They came back and kept a low profile. Some came back in Mongolia. So, its safe to say that CTA's ban on their incarnations have no effect at all and they're just creating more negativities for themselves.
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Conspiracy against Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and Dorje Shugden are repeating history during the 5th Dalai Lama and now the 14th Dalai Lama.
Is there a bigger goal and a bigger picture? Twice in history and there had been no win/win situation. Saddening.