Mahatma Gandhi versus the Dalai Lama

[Matibhadra]

Mahatma Gandhi bravely opposed the caste system. As a loyal Indian, he dedicated his life to fight against the tyranny of British invaders and colonizers, and for the unity of his country. He never used violence, and never promoted riots or self-immolations. And he was victorious in achieving the independence of his people. He never received a Peace Nobel Prize.

The “Dalai Lama”, on the other hand, never did anything against slavery and servitude while still in Tibet, and in exile instituted the caste system, making the followers of one deity untouchable pariah outcasts. As a traitor of his country he never said one word against the gift his predecessor made of a huge chunk of this country (Tawang, South Tibet, also known as Aruncahal Pradesh) to those same British invaders and colonizers. He continuously promotes bloodshed and violence, supporting riots and self-immolations. And he has miserably failed in achieving the independence of his people. Together with mass murderers or Western puppets such as Henry Kisinger or Aung San Suu Kyi, he did receive the Peace Nobel Prize.

Judging from the behavior, achievements and awards, which one would qualify better, not as Chenrezig, but as a decent human being worth any respect?

[Rinchen]

If the Dalai Lama is really who he is or not is not up to us to say. Although he might not be able to stop what has been going on, it is because of the things that some of the things that the Tibetans themselves choosing not to listen to the Dalai Lama.

There are still many self-immolators because the CTA encourages it although the Dalai Lama has advice them to stop.

Despite all these, if it was not for the Dalai Lama and the ban on Dorje Shugden, there will be many out there in the world  that do not know Tibetan Buddhism. In a way, it is good that the Dalai Lama has put a ban on this deity as it promotes the religion as a whole. If it was not for the ban, forcing many high lamas to move out of India, Tibetan Buddhism will not practiced by so many all over the world.

[Manjushri]

Looking beyond and further than what has been mentioned about the Dalai Lama, look also at how many lives have been saved by him. Look at the many high lamas, geshes, scholars, Tibetans etc, whom His Holiness led out of Tibet to India (of course on the advice and guidance of Dorje Shugden) , which in turn has resulted in the preservation of Buddhism, and has made Tibetan Buddhism flourish in today's world. Judging from that, how many "lives" has His holiness "saved" because millions have been able to meet with Buddhist teachings in today's world. If His Holiness did not play his part, it is quite a likely possibility that Tibetan Buddhism would have died during the Chinese invasion in Tibet. So, looking at that, and at his busy schedule, travelling around the world to teach others on kindness, harmony, co-habiting in peace with one another, giving practises and initiations, doesn't he deserve the Nobel Peace Prize award.

The guidelines to receiving the award and the judges may be questionable, but I do not doubt the sincerity and compassion of His Holiness to spread the Dharma, and use his life to benefit others. Anyways, whatever it is, the award is just a label, that does not mean anything when one's live ends.

[Matibhadra]

If the Dalai Lama is really who he is or not is not up to us to say.

The same logic would apply, say, to Hitler.

But you obviously missed the point. It is not about what the Dalai Lama “is”, but about what he *does*, and about the hypocrisy of those who, under pseudo-religious pretexts, keep covering and supporting the criminal who openly supports self-immolations, bloody racist ethnic riots, and so forth.

Pure Tibetan Buddhist traditions and Enlightened Buddhist Protectors hardly need being marketed by criminals and their criminal actions. Saying that Dorje Shugden needs the criminal actions of the Dalai Lama in order to be “promoted” would make of this Protector (and does make of those who support such views) an accomplice of such crimes.

[Matibhadra]

Looking beyond and further than what has been mentioned about the Dalai Lama, look also at how many lives have been saved by him.

Sure. The lives of more than 120 self-immolators instigated to suicide by the Dalai. The lives of more than one hundred innocent Chinese civilians, including women and children, murdered in Lhasa by the Dalai-supported mobs in 2008. The lives of thousands of poor deceived Tibetans who died uselessly fighting for CIA's sinister plans in Tibet aiming at the restoration of the Dalai's feudal-theocratic tyranny, so that the country could be better plundered by Western corporations. Any more lives saved by the Dalai?

Look at the many high lamas, geshes, scholars, Tibetans etc, whom His Holiness led out of Tibet to India (of course on the advice and guidance of Dorje Shugden) , which in turn has resulted in the preservation of Buddhism, and has made Tibetan Buddhism flourish in today's world.

They would surely be way better off without the Dalai's oppression and persecution. The most successful high lamas, geshes and scholars in the West are precisely those outside the reach of the suffocating tentacles of the jealous and egocentric Dalai, although harshly persecuted and threatened by the latter. The propagation of Dharma depends on reliable, authentic teachers, not on greedy tyrants and political puppets.

Judging from that, how many "lives" has His holiness "saved" because millions have been able to meet with Buddhist teachings in today's world.

Do you call “Buddhist teachings” the Dalai's racist anti-Chinese Western supported ethnic hatred propaganda, which is about the only thing the Dalai manages to utter to his “millions” of deceived followers, who think they are thus learning Buddhism, while being proud of enjoying the “freedom” and “democracy” of their own murderous culture?

The very foundation of Tibetan Buddhism is respect for the Guru. However, the Dalai teaches the exact opposite of this, when he derides and disparages his root gurus Ling Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche. There is no Buddhism built on such rotten basis. The only thing the Dalai taught to his “millions” of followers is the very negation and opposite of Buddhism, to wit, disrespect and contempt towards the Guru.

[diamond girl]

In this link read 20 wonderful quotes from the great man Mahatma Gandhi:

http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-7059/20-inspiring-quotes-from-mahatma-gandhi.html

In this second link are 10 inspirational quotes from HH Dalai Lama:

http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-6159/10-Inspiring-Quotes-From-the-Dalai-Lama.html

As much as I understand their differences in terms of the results both these great men achieved, what I cannot deny is the similarities in what they teach. Read these quotes so many are similar in the essence.

Also, with all my respect to Mahatma Gandhi, he did die for his country. He was assassinated. That is also a result. The people of India are still divided despite the sacrifice of Mahatma Gandhi. The issues I see are the masses and samsara. Yes it took one man to kill Gandhi, but it reflects the degenerated human race. Ungratefulness and greed.

My point, choose to see the similarities and not make things always about versus and against. Yes we can argue for the sake of debate but it is also necessary to recognise the virtues of both men of peace. Lastly, if not for the Dalai Lama and his "evil" actions, the practice of Dorje Shugden will not have grown.

[Big Uncle]

@jspitanga

Do you really have a point in making the Dalai Lama a villain? What you saying is just one aspect of the Dalai Lama in regards to the Dorje Shugden ban but there are many other aspects of the Dalai Lama that has greatly benefitted Buddhism in our world and gave a voice to a disenfranchised group of exiled Tibetans. From one viewpoint, he is creating all these problems with the ban but on another, he is creating incredible exposure of Dorje Shugden to the world. And in that manner spread Dorje Shugden to millions singlehandedly.

How does that tally spiritually with the discrimination experienced by practitioners? It does not... at least not for spiritual infants like us. But for Bodhisattvas, they can manifest in various ways to bring tremendous benefits to many. There were many great masters in the past that have manifested actions that were controversial and 'unmonk-like' but will ultimately bring tremendous benefit. I think the Dalai Lama is manifesting in this manner.

If you are Dorje Shugden practitioner, you are following Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's lineage and he foresaw the conflict in his writings of Dorje Shugden called Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors. And he advices practitioners not to take sides and go against the Dalai Lama and vice versa. So, what do we do? Condone this discrimination? No... We write, expose the truth about the ban and find various angles to bring attention to Dorje Shugden without demonizing the Dalai Lama. Below is the excerpt from Trijang Rinpoche -

"But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

Trijang Rinpoche uses a very strong language to explain this but I think what he is saying is that we should find other means to overcome the ban without resorting to demonizing the Dalai Lama or Dorje Shugden for that matter.

[dsiluvu]

@jspitanga

How does that tally spiritually with the discrimination experienced by practitioners? It does not... at least not for spiritual infants like us. But for Bodhisattvas, they can manifest in various ways to bring tremendous benefits to many. There were many great masters in the past that have manifested actions that were controversial and 'unmonk-like' but will ultimately bring tremendous benefit. I think the Dalai Lama is manifesting in this manner.

If you are Dorje Shugden practitioner, you are following Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's lineage and he foresaw the conflict in his writings of Dorje Shugden called Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors. And he advices practitioners not to take sides and go against the Dalai Lama and vice versa. So, what do we do? Condone this discrimination? No... We write, expose the truth about the ban and find various angles to bring attention to Dorje Shugden without demonizing the Dalai Lama. Below is the excerpt from Trijang Rinpoche -

"But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

Trijang Rinpoche uses a very strong language to explain this but I think what he is saying is that we should find other means to overcome the ban without resorting to demonizing the Dalai Lama or Dorje Shugden for that matter.

Hi Big Uncle,

I respect and can accept the points you mentioned cos no matter how crazy and confusing this may ban may be... we need to listen to words of advice given by H.H. Trijang Rinpoche who predicted all this would happen. If Trijang Rinpoche can predict all this that's happening now, I'm sure it is worth it for us to just follow his advice so we do not collect negative karma from our negative thoughts. For me it is simple - better to be safe than sorry, just follow the Guru's advice. Moreover, think about it, what is Trijang Rinpoche saying? He is basically telling us not to cause disharmony from within ourselves and externally with others. He is requesting us to watch our minds at this testing times as illogical as it may appear, it is best we don't add to the chaos!

YES sometimes I do think and I know others also think WHY is His Holiness doing this. It is obviously wrong, cruel and creates so much suffering and dis-sanctioned. It is somehow SHOCKING. Yet I do not doubt that HHDL has also benefited so many and making Tibetan Buddhism world famous and where it is today. So it is a huge dilemma and contradiction and definitely causes much heartache if you had to PICK!

I guess we just really need to get creative and think out of the box on how we can promote and tell the world the truth. We will rewrite history with the truth... and in this funny way HHDL has presented us the opportunity to do so with this ban. Sad to say but I guess we gotta look at the positive side!
At the end of it all TRUST no one but your own Guru, your own logic and be the PART OF THE SOLUTION NOT THE PROBLEM!

[Matibhadra]

Do you really have a point in making the Dalai Lama a villain?

The Dalai Lama hardly needs my humble help in this endeavor.

What you saying is just one aspect of the Dalai Lama in regards to the Dorje Shugden ban but there are many other aspects of the Dalai Lama that has greatly benefitted Buddhism in our world

Disparaging one's root gurus, and publically doing so, is hardly a benefit to Buddhist teachings, in this or any other world. Whatever alleged benefits are thoroughly spoiled and vitiated by this basic flaw.

and gave a voice to a disenfranchised group of exiled Tibetans.

A bunch of rich feudal aristocrat latifundiary slave owners nostalgic of good ol' times, you mean. Not unlike the disenfranchised Cuban latifundiary farmers in Miami, or Iranian torturers in Beverly Hills, or White racist latifundiary colonists expelled from Zimbabwe, and so forth.

Of course, there are many disenfranchised Tibetans in exile, but they were already disenfranchised serfs or slaves before in Tibet under the Dalai's theocracy, and anyway they are not the ones to whom the Dalai Lama gave a voice.

From one viewpoint, he is creating all these problems with the ban but on another, he is creating incredible exposure of Dorje Shugden to the world. And in that manner spread Dorje Shugden to millions singlehandedly.

Then because you and me appreciate the exposure of Dorje Shugden to the world we are going to silence about the crimes of the Dalai Lama, which are not even restricted to the Protector's issue. This would be called “accomplicity”. Dorje Shugden hardly needs it.

How does that tally spiritually with the discrimination experienced by practitioners? It does not... at least not for spiritual infants like us. But for Bodhisattvas, they can manifest in various ways to bring tremendous benefits to many. There were many great masters in the past that have manifested actions that were controversial and 'unmonk-like' but will ultimately bring tremendous benefit. I think the Dalai Lama is manifesting in this manner.

It's possible. But, as Pabongkha Rinpoche says, just because a dog may be the manifestation of a Buddha, this does not mean that we, even as spiritual infants, are supposed to walk on four legs, to bark around, and so forth.

Anyway, it is hard for non-Buddhas to assume, let alone to say as some kind of undeniable truth, that the controversially chosen CIA-George Soros-sponsored Western puppet Dalai Lama, the promoter of self-immolations and bloody racist riots, is a Bodhisttva or not.

Besides, as Buddhists, we are not supposed to swallow uncritically any teaching, even if it comes from the Buddha himself, who renounced his kingdom and never lied -- let alone if it comes from the highly controversial reincarnation of the convenient puppet chosen by some Mongolian butcher invading Tibet (I mean the “great” 5th, the chosen “model” of the 14th).

If you are Dorje Shugden practitioner, you are following Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's lineage and he foresaw the conflict in his writings of Dorje Shugden called Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors. And he advices practitioners not to take sides and go against the Dalai Lama and vice versa.

As Buddhist we are supposed to develop equanimity and not to take sides against anyone, including the Dalai Lama, Pol Pot, Hitler, Pinochet, Thatcher, Churchill, whoever. This means seeing both sides, even if both are dark.

So, what do we do? Condone this discrimination? No... We write, expose the truth about the ban and find various angles to bring attention to Dorje Shugden without demonizing the Dalai Lama. Below is the excerpt from Trijang Rinpoche -

Trijang Rinpoche's advice boils down to the general criticism of the ordinary, biased attitude of helping friends and hurting enemies under the influence of attachment and hatred.

This attitude is indeed needless, and surely harmful, but this does not have to be our motivation while discussing the respective behaviors and merits of the pro-colonialist Dalai Lama (together with the massive media hype about him) on the one hand, and the anti-colonialist Mahatma Gandhi on the other.

[Big Uncle]

Trijang Rinpoche's advice boils down to the general criticism of the ordinary, biased attitude of helping friends and hurting enemies under the influence of attachment and hatred.

This attitude is indeed needless, and surely harmful, but this does not have to be our motivation while discussing the respective behaviors and merits of the pro-colonialist Dalai Lama (together with the massive media hype about him) on the one hand, and the anti-colonialist Mahatma Gandhi on the other.

Dear jspitanga,

Therefore, wouldn't it be better if we discuss more constructive ways to bring down the ban on Dorje Shugden? The Dorje Shugden ban is already doing a great job in demonizing Dorje Shugden and his practitioners. In my opinion, we do not need to follow suit and instead, I think it would be better to highlight the special qualities of Dorje Shugden and the fallacies and injustices behind the Dorje Shugden ban. Character assassination on the part of the Dalai Lama is really... not too good.

I still stand on the ground where we don't really fully understand the motivation and intention of the Dalai Lama to truly judge him. If we look at the history of Tibet and India, we see many powerful masters with seemingly terribly conduct and have flouted many religious taboos and norms but yet their teachings, lineage and contribution endures to this day. Hence, in my opinion, it would be good to reserve our judgement of the Dalai Lama and redirect the efforts towards the ban instead so we can bring it down. I don't really know how to explain it any better but I do hope you understand.

[Matibhadra]

Therefore, wouldn't it be better if we discuss more constructive ways to bring down the ban on Dorje Shugden?

Is it possible to bring down an effect, such as the ban, without removing its cause, the fraudulent mythology empowering the perpetrator of this ban?

The Dorje Shugden ban is already doing a great job in demonizing Dorje Shugden and his practitioners. In my opinion, we do not need to follow suit and instead, I think it would be better to highlight the special qualities of Dorje Shugden and the fallacies and injustices behind the Dorje Shugden ban.

What for to highlight the fallacies and injustices behind the ban, if one is not ready to give up the causes of such fallacies and injustices, such as the fraudulent mythology empowering its perpetrator?

It would be like highlighting the evil of diabetes without being ready to give up sugar, or the evil of darkness without being ready to open the eyes.

Character assassination on the part of the Dalai Lama is really... not too good.

There is no need to assassinate the character of the Dalai Lama; it's enough to assassinate the fraudulent mythology built by Western mass media about him.

Besides, if the imagined character (that is, the democratic, peaceful, tolerant Dalai Lama) does not exist, how could it ever be assassinated?

I still stand on the ground where we don't really fully understand the motivation and intention of the Dalai Lama to truly judge him.

There is no need to go so far as judging the Dalai Lama, or anyone else to that effect. It's enough not to gullibly swallow the fraudulent mythology built by Western mass media about him.

If we look at the history of Tibet and India, we see many powerful masters with seemingly terribly conduct and have flouted many religious taboos and norms but yet their teachings, lineage and contribution endures to this day.

I guess you would have a hard time finding a powerful Buddhist master who persistently and unapologetically disparaged, ridiculed and disavowed his own root gurus -- as is the case with the Dalai Lama -- and whose teachings, lineage and contribution endure to this day.

Hence, in my opinion, it would be good to reserve our judgement of the Dalai Lama and redirect the efforts towards the ban instead so we can bring it down. I don't really know how to explain it any better but I do hope you understand.

I do understand that you, as essentially everyone on this forum, want to promote peace and harmony, and therefore may feel uncomfortable with some not so sweet analyses of the sweet but fraudulent Western mass media mythology about the Dalai Lama.

On the other hand, may I propose that just to gullibly swallow such a fraudulent mythology, and to eschew any discussions aiming at investigating and analysing it, while it seems to be at the very source of the ban, whose lifting is the very raison d'etre of this forum, and that which empowers its perpetrator, sounds rather purposeless and contradictory!

[prodorjeshugden]

Indeed the Dalai lama was the one behind many violent attacks on Shugden people and communities. But we can't really have much say on what the Dalai Lama actually means by that as there may be a greater hidden meaning behind everything thus we should not jump to conclusions(after all he is a emanation of Chenrenzig.) In fact the way I see that there is one good thing that the great Dorje Shugden ban has done, due to the Ban Dorje Shugden has become a big issue and sometimes makes headlines due to that I think that more people worldwide know  about Dorje Shugden and are starting to practice Dorje Shugden Daily.
So even though there are many cases of violence involving the people who practice Dorje Shugden the violence has also fanned the Dorje Shugden practice far and wide.

So for now let us all keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best regarding the Dorje Shugden issue.

[Tenzin Malgyur]

Agreed wholeheartedly with Rinchen. We are not at the level yet to judge His Holiness the Dalai Lama or any other lama. Although I still wish the Dalai Lama would remind his Tibetan followers to stop all of their violence and persecution of those Shugden believers in their communities. Even if they do not want to believe in the Shugden protector, at least let others practice in peace.
In the past months, HHDL did mentioned that it is alright to practice Shugden, but seemed like the CTA is still not getting the message. Hopefully HHDL would spell it out loud and clear this time.

[grandmapele]

If we believe the teachings on reincarnation, rebirth and divine play, we then have to trust Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's book, "Music delighting an Ocean of Protectors" and believe that there is an illusory play being unfolded in this time and age. Though the pill be bitter and totally unpalatable, we have to accept that illusory play but it also means that we cannot let our negative karma take over nor create more negative karma from this drama. We have to continue our practice to purify our negative karma and accumulate merits for teachings and attainments.

And, it also means that we have to do what we have to do on the mundane level to help those suffering from this play. Can we generate the compassion to feel and care for these people? Can we put our knowledge into practice and just help without condemning any party with malice? Can we just speak up for the downtrodden and just help without agenda or taking sides?

[Pema8]

Mahatma Gandhi was indeed a great man who did so much for his country. But now to compare Mahatma Gandhi with the 14th Dalai Lama is in my view not up to us. The times have changed since Gandhi's peaceful campaign. I believe that the role HH the Dalai Lama plays is very different. The Dalai Lama has to play a double role, on one hand in the Buddhist perspective and in secondly in a political perspective.

I trust that the Dalai Lama combines both roles skillfully for the greater benefit of all. HH is known worldwide and travels constantly to spread the message of peace and compassion. On the other hand, the Dorje Shugden conflict is much more known because of the Dalai Lama traveling and many protests around the visits of HH did highlight the unfairness the Dorje Shugden practitioners are treated within the Tibetan communities and even worldwide. Still, the ban is not lifted and we wait for this to happen soon.

May Dorje Shugden and Buddhism spread wide and far.