THERE WAS A BAN ON THE SEARCH OF TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN'S REINCARNATION

[LosangKhyentse]

This is getting interesting. The Gelug lineage views Je Tsongkhapa as Manjudshri or emanation  of Manjushri. According to the bio of Je Tsongkhapa , Je Rinpoche conversed with Manjushri during his retreat. If we follow Crazycloud's argument , this wouldn’t had been possible.
However, the bio of Je Tsongkhapa is accepted without any challenge. Based on this, I would think it’s completely possible that even if DS and TDG are of the same mental continuum , they can manifest at the same time as they have attained the ultimate nature ,therefore beyond the law of cause and effect .

What clear logic. I like this. I believe we cannot judge or box in what high level being can incarnate and when. Again, whether we believe or not will not affect them at all. If this is the real TDG incarnation and confirmed by senior lamas, oracles or Shar Gaden/Serpom, then I will definitely accept. Who am I to be right and all of them wrong.

tk

[honeydakini]

This is getting interesting. The Gelug lineage views Je Tsongkhapa as Manjudshri or emanation  of Manjushri. According to the bio of Je Tsongkhapa , Je Rinpoche conversed with Manjushri during his retreat. If we follow Crazycloud's argument , this wouldn’t had been possible.

Thanks for giving such a clear example.
Also, Dulzin was believed to have been an emanation of Tsongkhapa himself (and their guru-disciple relationship was exemplary for the humility they showed)

Again, this would not have been possible if we follow CC's argument - as they both arose at the same time (sprout) from the same mindstream (seed)

[Helena]

Thank you, Kurava. This explanation makes sense to me, and I can definitely relate to it.

This is getting interesting. The Gelug lineage views Je Tsongkhapa as Manjudshri or emanation  of Manjushri. According to the bio of Je Tsongkhapa , Je Rinpoche conversed with Manjushri during his retreat. If we follow Crazycloud's argument , this wouldn’t had been possible.
However, the bio of Je Tsongkhapa is accepted without any challenge. Based on this, I would think it’s completely possible that even if DS and TDG are of the same mental continuum , they can manifest at the same time as they have attained the ultimate nature ,therefore beyond the law of cause and effect .

[Ensapa]

Some concludes that there are no incarnations or possibilities of the return of TDG because there hasn't been one for the last 350 years. It is illogical to me. The enlightened minds can emanate whenever, however as required. With that said, I'm keeping an open mind as to the announcement of TDG's return.

As much as the anti Shugdenites want to believe that TDG is evil or that his incarnation was banned, his incarnation is not. He is just not called the Dragpa Gyaltsen line anymore but with another title: Ngari Rinpoche.

Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself wrote poetic verses mentioning that in future he will incarnate everywhere, not only in Tibet (stated in the introduction to the be.bum). A more recent scholar, one of this century, Kachen Sopala from Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, claims that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen reincarnated in the incarnation line of Ngari Tulkus. The present Ngari Rinpoche is the brother of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama.

What does the supports of the Dalai Lama say to this now? The very figure they have been trying to put down is the Dalai Lama's own brother!! I would like to see how do they reconcile to this fact.

[Big Uncle]

There's quite a lot of known incarnations of Dorje Shugden running around and performing various roles in the grander scheme of things. We know that traditionally, Samdhong Rinpoche is an emanation along with a brother of the Dalai Lama. I can't remember what's his name now.

I also heard of the wealthy Mongolian Guru Deva Rinpoche who sponsored a lot of Gaden, Sera and Drepung monasteries in India is the emanation of Gyenze, the wealth aspect of Dorje Shugden. There must be one mind incarnation of Dorje Shugden running around under a different incarnation name and I wonder who he is. I guess at this stage, it would be better for him to remain under covers. He might reveal himself if and when the ban gets lifted.

Since we have the emanation of Gyenze running around, I wonder if there are Tulkus of the other emanations running around. I would imagine the Trakse incarnation would be a powerful and awesome Lama. These are just some of the things that goes through my head from time to time. I thought it would be good food for thought.

[Ensapa]

There's quite a lot of known incarnations of Dorje Shugden running around and performing various roles in the grander scheme of things. We know that traditionally, Samdhong Rinpoche is an emanation along with a brother of the Dalai Lama. I can't remember what's his name now.
That's Ngari Rinpoche, formerly known as Ngari Dragpa Gyaltsen is the Dalai Lama's brother. Ironic isnt it how things have turned out. Dorje Shugden probably has more emanations around, maybe not as Lamas, but he is certainly everywhere. Nobody knows who, but he is certainly around.

I also heard of the wealthy Mongolian Guru Deva Rinpoche who sponsored a lot of Gaden, Sera and Drepung monasteries in India is the emanation of Gyenze, the wealth aspect of Dorje Shugden. There must be one mind incarnation of Dorje Shugden running around under a different incarnation name and I wonder who he is. I guess at this stage, it would be better for him to remain under covers. He might reveal himself if and when the ban gets lifted.
The sad part is, even though Guru Deva Rinpoche did so much for the 3 great monasteries, he was not thanked at all by the monasteries but instead ostracized because he practiced Dorje Shugden. Then, return all the sponsored items if you truly hate him. Arent you afraid that his contributions are tainted by Dorje Shugden, CTA? If so, stop using them and see how you survive.

Since we have the emanation of Gyenze running around, I wonder if there are Tulkus of the other emanations running around. I would imagine the Trakse incarnation would be a powerful and awesome Lama. These are just some of the things that goes through my head from time to time. I thought it would be good food for thought.
There are many more incarnations around, just not identified. The trakze form, i suppose, would be a very fierce mahasiddha that will be extremely fearless in doing the right thing.

I replied to this thread to actually tie up loose ends and as a conclusion to the thread's posers and questions as new information has been discovered since. Lets hope people will learn when they read about this thread

[christine V]

Dear Helena,

Thank you for the "brain storming" type of posting. It caught my eye on this topic.
It is very true indeed. I was assuming that Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen will not incarnate because H.H has became a Dharma Protector.
This post, just as what Helena have said about the emanation,
If H.H Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen "purposely Die" in a tragic way just to be a Dharma Protector, it is impossible H.H will not emanate or reincarnate. And, it is also impossible that the Tibetan Monastery will not try to trace H.H Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen incarnation.
The other thought that stirred up my curiosity is, was there any stupa for H.H Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen? And, what has happened to the Stupa? If in the stupa has have ashes, where are the ashes now?
If there is an oracle of H.H, don't you think the oracle will definitely pointed out where is H.H now?

[Ensapa]

Insert Quote
As the Enlightened People do seem to emanate, incarnate, rebithtake, tulkuake, and so forth, I just wonder, that whwre has the Shakyamuni gone?
Buddha Shakyamuni emanated as Nagajurna, Guru Rinpoche, Vajradhara, Tsongkhapa and all the HYT deities. It's a question that can be easily answered by someone with a little knowledge on Buddha's nature and how he can appear in different forms to benefit others.
(This was not a frivolous question. I really wonder...)

That's what concerns me about this.  Given an inch they want a mile.  So once enough people have accepted that this is Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen then they or someone else will try to usurp the Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation title, then the Buddha Shakyamuni title.  I don't see this as a good thing.
Titles are just titles and mere labels to impress the simple and superficial minds of the some that require it. Tulkus do not need a title to start benefitting others, they only need themselves. I have seen tulkus who do so much work for others even before they are recognized. It is not a power or ego thing. The title only allows a tulku to accelerate his or her Dharma work, thats all, but it does not mean they're only a tulku only when recognized.

You don't need to concern yourself at all on how many miles THEY want. No one usurps. Once you have accepted or not accepted the Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen incarnation, it makes no difference to the incarnation, his students and others. If he is real, he will do works to spread the dharma of Tsongkapa and that's it. If he doesn't do great works and damages the dharma, he goes to the three lower realms. Our job is to keep open mind and don't worry about the 'mileage'. So you don't have to give a mile, JUST GIVE AN INCH.
 
hear hear! this is one of the most reasonable post that I have read in this thread. Why would tulkus want to compete for a title? If they do, then they're not tulkus, just ordinary people like you and me who only pangs after the 8 worldly concerns. So why do they then deserve our respect?

This thread is rather old but I do find interesting that people would see tulkus are like regular folks. If you see tulkus as regular people with concerns for the 8 worldly dharmas, then why go for them for teachings? pick the non tulkus then.

[Amitabha]

  All beings have the emanation of Buddha, whereas Buddha and/or enlightened beings may reincarnate as form based on ripen conditions that may or may not be recognized by beings. Nonetheless, Buddha said living beings' parents are the living buddha. 

[Ensapa]

I kinda stumbled into this post again and I do have something to add.

I am starting to feel that all of these bans were put on by CTA instead of the Dalai Lama. How can a mere government of laypeople ban a high and very attained Lama from reincarnating? You gotta be kidding me, somehow! All of the lamas that they have banned in the past, including Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, Chankya Rolpa Dorje, Taranatha, Reting and Sharmapa came back anyway. They came back and kept a low profile. Some came back in Mongolia. So, its safe to say that CTA's ban on their incarnations have no effect at all and they're just creating more negativities for themselves.

[Dondrup Shugden]

Conspiracy against Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and Dorje Shugden are repeating history during the 5th Dalai Lama and now the 14th Dalai Lama.

Is there a bigger goal and a bigger picture?  Twice in history and there had been no win/win situation. Saddening.