Author Topic: Delhi Court Decision  (Read 33447 times)

Geronimo

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2010, 03:40:57 AM »
Self Determination is the Key to Liberty!
One Follows the Advice of a Lama as a Friend,
Not as a Slave
We should Always Use Our Common Sense
What else do we have?
This is how Lord Buddha Taught.
That we might simply Understand,
His Teachings and Advice.
Have a Good Time
But Get to It!
Life goes by more quickly than a twinkling of an eye!
Why else would we do it?
Some use this to gain Power and Pervert and Abuse their Friends
All this nonsense of torturous suffering is a bunch of bunk
Liberation! Is In the Palm of Your Hand
Does Not Make Us Mushrooms
Incapable of feeling and attitude!
We are human and must act as such,
To ignore our human side make no sense,
The Dharma is to strenghten us to pursue our goal and resolve our karmas.
Not to turn people into mindless pillow sitters.
Besides, this is the time for action through action,
not Inaction through Inaction
We Pray for Results and Victories for Our Rights and the Rights of Others
The Ones Who have no voice
Wait until you get a midnight call
frantically pleading,
Trapped in his Concentration Camps
A woman I do not know,except as my sister in need.

This is a perpetual Tsunami,a shattered force writhing in it's Death Throes,
Thinking it has eternal life to plot it's wickedness
But instead, We few, we mighty few, will bring this tyrant down like a house of cards.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 12:53:21 AM by Lhakpa Gyaltshen »

a friend

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2010, 05:25:08 AM »

Quote
Of course the Dalai Lama has played his political cards very well - divide and conquer.   Most Gelug lamas are now in bed with the Dalai Lama, so perhaps there are consequences of completely spoiling his reputation, as it could "take the whole ship down".  But for some of us it appears the ship is already in peril and mutiny is the only solution. 

Trinley Kelsang,

I agree. (Except: about "most Gelug Lamas", I wouldn´t put it that way, I would say that most "appear to be with the Dalai Lama" for different reasons, but in fact most are not.)
I agree that mutiny is the only solution. For us at least. But the subject here was our mistakes, and also the apparent lack of efficacy of our actions, the weak repercussion of things that should´ve had a stronger repercussion, like your work for instance.
Another example. Thom just published a fraction of the paper for the New Statesman. That paper was long, and it contained a theory about the political reasons that the Dalai Lama probably had for the ban of 1996. (Most of it appeared in this Forum before being published in the New Statement). The theory was purely political, free from religious explanations. It was something that anybody could’ve understood. I remember the only repercussions that I saw beyond the fight in that British blog were some isolated comments to the French version of the paper, that was published in the Nouvel Observateur’s blog in France. There a few individuals reacted and said, OMG, this finally makes things clear, this we can understand. How many in total, I don’t remember, maybe four or five people?
So apparently our actions, no matter their quality, have so little effect. It seems really bizarre.
Of course there is soul searching and looking for explanations, it’s only human. And when you want to explain with just “karma and conditions”, well, it’s correct, but it’s so general that it does not suffice somehow. If we had succes it also would fall under “karma and conditions”. Analyzing the arisings of this matter I try to take into account the intervention of protection, which is also part of “karma and conditions”.
Now, you say: 

“Yes, there are times you can't do much to affect the outcome and you have to just go into passive mode.  But based on my involvement in worldly matters, such as engineering projects, such a hopeful strategy is grounds for disaster.”

But when I discern a type of protection for the innocent human beings that are followers of the Dalai Lama in good faith I’m not in any way proning a strategy of passive mode. Much to the contrary. I do think that we should continue with our doings, trying to destroy the effects of the Dalai Lama’s bad deeds. What we have done so far is extraordinary, and we have to sustain it:
1-We have stopped the Dalai Lama in his attempt of wiping out our monks from the territory of the monasteries. We easily forget that he wanted them to disappear even from India. But he had to give up on that one. We won a fantastic battle there. The demonstrations and the writings and the letters sent to India and to worldwide authorities and newspapers did the work. Even the botched Delhi Court case did it. Not that anybody reacted, as authorities go. But we scared the living daylights out of Dharamsala’s power.
2-Most important though, and your work is foremost in this victory: for eternity now the Dalai Lama is not going to be able to use the weight of his illegitimate authority to force our Lamas, our Protector and our lineage out of History. His voice proclaiming that our deity is a demonic being intent on harming ... I don´t think anybody believes that. Your unveiling of the lies and the manipulation of history, both by the Dalai Lama and his clique of academic followers, forever is there like a cosmic wall of protection. History, thanks to you and some other individuals like Ursula Bernis, has forever alternative voices to the voice of the Dalai Lama. These voices are his defeat. These voices are the protection for those beings in the future that are going to join our lineage without suspicion or fear of demonic activity.
So I don´t advice to stop our activities. I suggest that partial defeats of our side, the appearance of power that the Dalai Lama still flaunts, are not necessarily the results of our bad karma. I strongly suspect that they are the result of the good karma of many innocent people who are sincere followers of the Dalai Lama. That there is a protection for them manifests in apparent defeats for us. But this is not something that should neither depress us nor stop us.
It should not depress us: we should be happy that they are not harmed by our necessary actions.
It should not stop us: our actions to stop the Dalai Lama continue to be necessary. But we do not need a complete victory. As you say, we don´t need to sink the ship. We don´t need to throw the baby with the bath water.
Actually, this conversation, that probably nobody but myself is following any more, is making me rather happy. Again, I trust our Protector. I trust us to be doing what we have to do, what he needs us to do. And I trust that he is doing his job when he protects the innocent from any negative effects of our good actions.



Middleway

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2010, 10:12:31 PM »
I was sitting doing Ganden Lhagyama the other day and just became filled with a calm assurance that things were going to be ok.

This morning I was chatting to someone new to our meditation classes and, maybe because of the UK elections, I'm not sure, I mentioned something about it not being good wearing a religious and political 'hat' at the same time.  She said 'sure, like the Dalai Lama'.  I've had that response from several people who are not firmly entrenched in either camp but who can see him for what he is.  I was amazed how casual and clear she was about it.

When I say 'things'll be ok'  I don't mean we'll see the perfect result we all want.  It's samsara & things'll be pants in many, many ways.  What I mean is - the DL won't put an end to Dorje Shugden practice - it'll survive & go on to help many many people.

I was interested in something Trinley Kalsang said about reasoning not working.  He's right - in itself reason is not enough.  Neither's protesting.  What we need is oodles of merit, lots of purification, lashings of blessings & then we just do what we can according to the guidance of our Spiritual Guide.  If we all do that - bring inner conditions together as a priority & do whatever else we can practically, including reasoning, then we'll succeed in preserving the tradition until... It goes 'kapoot' and disappears into another universe.  Who knows when that'll be, but I don't think just yet.  Even when it does, we'll follow it there, get enlightened & use the karmic connections & potentials we're creating now by working for our Protector to drag them all out of samsara.  And we are creating HUGE merit.

Midakpa

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2010, 02:06:53 AM »
Yes, DS will survive and help many, many people. But we need to spread the Dorje Shugden practice to many tirelessly. At this stage, we need lots of merits, purification, blessings and guidance. I agree with Middleway. There's a lot of sense in what he said. Until we're enlightened, we can't really help people in the ultimate sense. Meanwhile, we need to accumulate merits as vast as space...

a friend

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2010, 03:21:57 PM »
All the quotes are from Middleway.
Quote
I was sitting doing Ganden Lhagyama the other day and just became filled with a calm assurance that things were going to be ok.


Thank you for the good news. Even if we know that things are going to be ok it's always good to learn it from another source.

Quote
... I was interested in something Trinley Kalsang said about reasoning not working.  He's right - in itself reason is not enough.  Neither's protesting.  What we need is oodles of merit, lots of purification, lashings of blessings & then we just do what we can according to the guidance of our Spiritual Guide.



Perfect recipe.
And also: reasoning is working. With the scope of the internet we don't have any idea of the number that is going to be benefitting from works like the one Trinley Kelsang is doing. He was probably under attack from some nasty little devils of depression precisely because his work is so important and the benefits it will bring incalculable.


Quote
... When I say 'things'll be ok'  I don't mean we'll see the perfect result we all want.  It's samsara & things'll be pants in many, many ways.  What I mean is - the DL won't put an end to Dorje Shugden practice - it'll survive & go on to help many many people.



Yes. For many among us the perfect result would be that the Dalai Lama gets entirely exposed and that the whole world turns an accusing finger against him. What a relief it would be, all the suffering allayed in one stroke. But as you say, this is samsara.
And because it is samsara things are not clear cut and what we call a perfect result might not be so perfect in the end, if many beings loose all hopes in religion for instance.
So it’s good that we accept that we won’t see “our” perfect result. And as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was saying ... we can still be happy.
Hey, after all, what we did and will continue to do will help the practice survive, and most important, is helping the whole of Lord Tsongkapa’s lineage survive without that horrendous suspicion of demonic activity that the DL threw on our lineage Lamas.
This one is our main victory I think.


Quote
... then we'll succeed in preserving the tradition until... It goes 'kapoot' and disappears into another universe.  Who knows when that'll be, but I don't think just yet.  Even when it does, we'll follow it there, get enlightened & use the karmic connections & potentials we're creating now by working for our Protector to drag them all out of samsara.


I like the idea of following the teachings (and the Lamas of course) to any universe where they can manifest. But I hope that all of us will get enlightened before they go kaput in our universe.
Thank you Middleway for the encouraging words.

Small being

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2010, 09:00:53 PM »
I totally agree with what you all said. Disregarding the seesaw over the court 's decision, I just would like to remind you about what's already been accomplished. What we've witnessed during the past years is not less than the emancipation of the Gelug tradition from the DL. I mean, establishing entirely new Gelug monasteries and organisations completely free from political pollution in Tibet 60 years ago? Utterly unthinkable. So this man and his wrong-headed agenda have already been defeated in reality... Might just take a little while for some people to see. I believe all these good results have come from faith in our lineage Gurus. Looks like all we need to do now is to continue  ;).

SB

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2010, 12:11:45 PM »
Dear Small Being,

Excellent observation. I agree with what your saying. Thank you!!

TK

Middleway

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2010, 02:25:36 PM »
Has anyone seen this?

http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/summary-of-the-state-of-shugden-scholarship/

It's on an anti WSS site, but it comes accross as generally neutral, calling for better academic research into the history of Shugden practice & stating current arguments are built on a narrow frame of research.

It mentions Trinlay Kalsang's site as one which has begun to dig deeper (& acknowledges it has disproved some of Dreyfus's assertions).  It seems at least this academic has taken notice of Trinlay's work, regardless of Trinlay's formal qualifications & is now acknowledging the weakness of existing material & asking for better work to be done.

Neither your time nor your energy has been wasted Monsieur Trinlay!


a friend

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2010, 05:35:44 PM »

I don't understand the website.
Is this Tenzin Pelnjor's website?
If this is the case I don't get it. Chris Bell is not an enemy that I know of. If he is the one I remember from the epic e-mail lists back in 96-97, he was not at all a DL's supporter.
What's he doing in TP's blog?


Middleway

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2010, 11:59:06 PM »
I haven't investigated it much, but it is one of Mr Peljor's blogs. Maybe he thought the post was asking for better research in order to diss DS, when really it is just seeking more info to bring wisdom & reconciliation?

a friend

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2010, 02:35:52 AM »

Yes, something like that, a type of misunderstanding, because I don't imagine that he's trying to be impartial.
TP is obsessed against NKT, it's a very sad case. I suppose it's ok. Some rebel against their parents, others against their Gurus. They only show their profound lack of self reliance, of maturity.

I'd like to know where Chris Bell first published that article. Beyond the fact of being in such a rabid anti NKT blog, the article per se doesn't show animosity against NKT that I could perceive. Bell tries I think to go the academic way so he's very careful about not showing inclination towards any parties. But I don't think that he follows the DL in any way.

Dharmapal

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2010, 05:00:06 PM »
TK, your work has been invaluable, and hopefully the comments on here have shown you this :-)

If you need some time out, I hope you take it, as in the power of rest, so you come back to it later with a relaxed and determined mind. I have been doing a lot of retreat recently, and been less active defending our tradition on the Internet; and during this time I find my confidence and faith have increased even more due to the blessings from the Gurus and Protector. They are nowhere close to despair and never will be! So perhaps we do not need to succumb to the laziness of discouragement either  :)

I think that if we (1) practice Je Tsongkhapa's Dharma purely with all our hearts, and (2) between us continue to answer lies with the truth motivated by compassion in whatever form that needs to take, we create all the right causes to prevail. Everything has already changed profoundly (as Small Being points out), largely because we are in the process of creating the causes for Buddhism and politics to be separated. On this pure foundation, a mandala of Je Tsongkhapa's sublime tradition, unstained by politics, will arise and liberate the suffering beings of this world.







Geronimo

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2010, 10:45:26 PM »
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=714.15

Friends, I did a small analysis of the National Court´s decision refusing to accept jurisdiction in the case presented to them by the Dorje Shugden Charitable Society. The black letters are from the Court´s decision.

1) Two important statements against the Dalai Lama:
Indian government does not recognize the so-called Tibetan government in exile. It is further stated that worshippers of Dorje Shugden have a right to freedom of religion as enshrined under Article 25 of the Constitution.

2) A reason of location for denying jurisdiction:
The government of India pointed out that this court has no territorial jurisdiction over a dispute. As they are located in Dharamshala, the state government is to investigate the allegations against the Dalai Lama and Tibetan government in exile.

3) Two reasons against the actions of the Society and the other complainers: they didn´t do what they should´ve done in terms of following the normal hierarchy of authorities, the Police coming first:

-there is no mention of any complaint having been made to the police by Petitioners regarding such attacks, which have not been acted upon by the police authorities.

-Apart from this averment being vague, it appears that no formal complaint was lodged by the members of Petitioner No.1 Society in relation to such instance with the police in Karnataka. There is no question of any interference on the basis of such vague averments particularly when the criminal law remedy available to the Petitioners has not been availed of by them.

4) A reason of pure jusridiction that the lawyers didn´t take into account: the Court does not look into matters of religion. (Obviously, they do in matters of civil rights, but the lawyers didn´t take this path apparently).
Matters of religion and the differences among groups concerning propitiation of religion, cannot be adjudicated upon by a High Court in exercise of its writ jurisdiction.

5) A warning to the Dalai Lama and the so called Tibetan Government in Exile:
It is however clarified that the dismissal of this petition will not preclude any individual member or members of the Petitioner No.1 Society to seek appropriate remedies as may be available to them in law before the appropriate forum.

Zach

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Re: Delhi Court Decision
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2010, 10:17:17 AM »
Has anyone heard any futher ? Individual or groups now filing complaints to the police perhapes ?