Author Topic: Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????  (Read 260 times)

Harold Musetescu

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Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????
« on: July 09, 2018, 08:15:49 PM »
The answer is YES.

Their Government already accepts Dorje Shugden as a Dharmapala.

They have passed laws protecting his practice.

No Tulku or High Lama in the West has the courage to make Dorje Shugden a YIDAM.

How about the Chinese 11th Panchen Lama?

He has the power to do just that.

If he does then what will the 14th Dalai Lama do???

He has already accepted the Chinese 11th Panchen Lama as a real incarnation of the 10th.

The Dalai Lama who have to publicly accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM if he wants to visit Tibet.

OH MY, what with the 14th Dalai Lama do.

Accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM or stay home in India.

He could just blame the Nechung Oracle and the late Lamo Tsangpa for all his problems and say they got it wrong in 1996.

lightning

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Re: Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2018, 05:25:22 PM »
Again... protector cannot be yidam... stop misleading

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2018, 06:50:28 PM »
Again Lightning...protectors can be yidams....STOP MISLEADING!!!!!!!
 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2018, 10:52:33 PM »

Hello Lighting

Here's the link to the article about Dorje Shugden as a Yidam.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/dharma-demystified-dorje-shugden-as-a-yidam/

Here is an important part of that article.

(Quote)
Dorje Shugden as a Yidam
A Yidam is traditionally considered by practitioners to be higher than a Dharma Protector because attainments and enlightenment derived from engaging in a sadhana is the ultimate goal of any Buddhist practice. However, from the side of the practitioner, this does not mean that a Yidam is higher or more enlightened than a Dharma Protector.

Dorje Shugden is currently propitiated as a Dharma Protector and he is also the emanation of Manjushri, who is propitiated as a Yidam. From the side of the deity, he is enlightened whether he manifests as a Lama – Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, Yidam – Manjushri or Protector – Dorje Shugden.

There is no question of whether Dorje Shugden qualifies as a Yidam. For an enlightened mind, there is neither labels nor differing levels of enlightenment and so they are all equal in nature. Therefore, the distinction lies not in the deity itself but in the way the deity is propitiated. In other words, what separates a Yidam from a Dharma Protector is their differing role and function from the side of the practitioner and not the deity.

As mentioned earlier in the article, Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche propagated Dorje Shugden practice because he felt that our modern time calls for an extraordinarily swift and powerful Protector. Therefore, Dorje Shugden is the most suitable Protector of our time based upon his extraordinary strength and swiftness.

This is also the reason why Dorje Shugden would also be suitable to be meditated on as a Yidam. The same level of efficacy and swiftness would ensure that more practitioners would become attained through his practice. Due to his efficacy, Dorje Shugden would be quicker to bestow attainments than many of the other Yidams if he was to be propitiated as a Yidam.

Now, let us explore the reasons for Dorje Shugden’s efficacy and speed. The first reason is the fact that Dorje Shugden currently exists in a worldly form but with an enlightened mind and that means Dorje Shugden exists in the Nirmanakaya form or emanation body of Manjushri just like the Dalai Lama or Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.

This also indicates that Dorje Shugden’s form exists within Samsara and has greater karma and affinity with the beings of this time. This was brought about because Dorje Shugden arose from the aspiration of a highly attained lama, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen when he passed away. Therefore at the final moment, the mind of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen took on the form of a powerful worldly being in order to fulfill this aspiration.

This is unique because most of the other Dharma Protectors and all of the Yidams are in the Sambhogakaya form or enjoyment body. This means that it would take far more merits to contact and receive assistance from them than it is with Dorje Shugden.

The other reason is the fact that Dorje Shugden is a relatively ‘new’ Protector having been only 300 years since he first arose. Therefore, a new Protector like Dorje Shugden would have a greater karma and affinity with the practitioners of this time when compared to the other Protectors. Some Protectors are not propitiated anymore because their time and karma have passed. So, the Protectors assume different forms to benefit sentient beings.

At present, Dorje Shugden is propitiated as a Dharma Protector but one can meditate upon Dorje Shugden as a Yidam as well if a lama composes the necessary texts. The lama needs to compose the initiation text, sadhana and commentary in order for Dorje Shugden to be regarded as a Yidam.

The previous Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche was known to have composed a sadhana to Vajrayogini and its commentary that is widely in use today. Since the other great sadhanas were composed by attained lamas of the past, therefore, an attained lama like Pabongka Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche could also compose the initiation text, sadhana and commentary on how to meditate on Dorje Shugden as a Yidam. Interestingly, Dorje Shugden would be the first Yidam to be in a worldly form.

Having Dorje Shugden propitiated as a Yidam would prove to be very beneficial for the growth of the Dharma because we live in a time of degeneration where attained practitioners and masters are very few and far in between and people have little time for Dharma. Therefore, if Dorje Shugden is propitiated as a Yidam, it would help many practitioners to quickly develop spiritual attainments. What remains now is for a sincere practitioner to make the request to a qualified lama – a request that will benefit the world once it comes to fruition.
(Unquote)

Maybe you now need to check with "Your Guru" about his teachings on Dorje Shugden is not a Yidam?

Or maybe "Your Guru" is right and His Eminence Tsem Tulku is WRONG.



Harold Musetescu

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Re: Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2018, 11:06:55 PM »
Hello again Lightning

I went on Tsem Tulku's website and I went to "Ask a Question".

I asked an "Ordained Pastor" on December 29, 2015 if Dorje Shugden could be a "Yidam".

Here is his answer,

(Quote)
Question asked by Harold Musetescu
DEC 29, 2015
I just ask a question below about could Dorje Shugden be my complete practice. I had also asked in the past if he could be my yidam practice and you told me no. On dorjeshugen.com please type in "A pray by he current reincarnation of Drakpa Gyalsten" dated May 25,2013. In his prayer the opening line of the 6th paragraph he states "Your as my BUDDHA, my YIDAM, my GURU, my PROTECTOR". If the current reincarnation of Dorje Shugden see Dorje Shugen as a BUDDHA, YIDAM, GURU and PROTECTOR" should not we his followers see him as that also. Please ask H.E. Tsem Tulku if he could personally answer this most serious revelation by the current reincarnation of Dorje Shugden. I don't think that there can be a higher authority on what Dorje Shugden can manifest as then then his current reincarnation.

Reply by pastor
Dear Harold Musetescu,

Since Dorje Shugden is a enlightened being he can be relied upon as a Yidam. This is because he abides in great bliss and emptiness. These two are just some of the qualities of a fully enlightened Buddha.
(Unquote)

Here is the link to that page,

http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/pastorquestion/harold-musetescu#comments

So Lightning here is another article this one by a "Pastor" at Tsem Rinpoche's Kechara Forest Retreat".

The Pastor states that I don't have to wait for Dorje Shugden to be officially declared a "Yidam".

I or should I say we can all immediately practice Dorje Shugden as our Yidam.

Of course I, the Pastor and His Eminence Tsem Tulku could by wrong and you and "Your Guru" could be right. ::) :o




Harold Musetescu

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Re: Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2018, 11:25:59 PM »
Hello Lighting

Here is another link to an article on dorjeshugden.com

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/prayers/dorje-shugden-prayers/a-prayer-by-the-current-incarnation-of-tulku-drakpa-gyeltsen/

It was written on May 25,2013 and it is a prayer written by the current incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.

(Quote)
Prayer by the Current Incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen
Posted on May 25, 2013 in Dorje Shugden Prayers · 10,768 Views · 16 Comments
........You are my Buddha, my yidam, my Guru, my protector and my
Complete source of blessings........composed by the current incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen
May 25th, 2013
(Unquote)

If the current incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen states that Dorje Shugden is "my Yidam" who are we to say that he is wrong.

Remember that this article was "Officially" posted on this website that is run by His Eminence Tsem Tulku.

But maybe Tsem Tulku and the current incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen are wrong and YOU and YOUR GURU are RIGHT. :o :P 8)

lightning

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Re: Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2018, 11:05:52 AM »
As i said each to its own and your explaination is from your guru.
As mentioned yidam specific function is for enlightenment. Yamantaka is one of the yidam and one cannot treat yamantaka as protector. Neither can one treat protector as yidam. There are 8 main dharmapala in gelug order. They are all buddha manifestations palden lhamo as sarawati, yamaraja as manjushri. Why so hardcore on dorje shugden? I dun mind education on dorje shugden is enlightenment being but this group is getting so hard on. I seldom participate in forum as it is deviating from the norm by too focus in dalai lama and dorje shugden, instead of gelug teachings on three principal teachings. It is simply getting out of hands.
Ask other dorje shugden practsing groups. I believed they will not agree that dorje shugden is an yidam. Becos they have a set of oral transmissions which is a set of guiding truth.
Simailarly dharmakaya cannot be sombokaya. Pardon my spelling...
Enough is enough... this forum belong to a sole practising group and do not have the authority to represent dorje shugden or gelug teachings in general. Many old aquinatances came in faith but disappointed at the direction where it is heading.

lightning

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Re: Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2018, 11:15:36 AM »
China accepting dorje shugden as yidam is a wishful thinking on your part. They just making use of opposing forces to taunt Dalai lama. The only "yidam" they accepted faithfully is president Xi. Why swing others into your thinking mode and logic? Is it as same magnitude as brainwashing??. It is not truthful? Why not focus time on dharma comtemplation on bodichitta and emptiness wisdom?? Why not spread Gelug dharma and spend more times on helping senitnent beings?

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2018, 01:55:25 PM »
Why not admit that I was right and you were WRONG.

Why not focus on that Lightning? :-[ :-[ :-[

lightning

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Re: Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2018, 04:45:09 AM »
Hi Harold, it is about being specific and not falling into gray area. Eg we cannot treat the attainment of arhant and the attainment of buddha the same? When you treat dorje shugden as yidam. It is serious enough to cause damage to teaching? You are impeding or causing obstacle to others enlightenment. Whatever you discuss, I dun normally interfere but when comes to teaching. I want to be sure and make sure others consult their own gelug guru to validate the statement on whether dorje shugden is yidam. According to mine answer is a definete NO. That is why i say you can say dorje shugden is yidam to your guru group of students or your change the group name under your own guru forum. Do you know that there are some of my own guru's students are affected and overhyped by dorje shugden group influence? We need to be able to distinguish what is truth from falsehood. Why should we have distinguishing wisdom of Amitabha Buddha? It is to develope distinguishing and discerning wisdom.
 

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Would China accept Dorje Shugden as a YIDAM ?????
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2018, 06:36:38 AM »
Hi lightning.

You stated that "I want to be sure and make sure others consult their own gelug guru to validate the statement on whether dorje shugden is yidam. According to mine answer is a definite NO."

In this article I have stated from H.E. Tsem Tulku, the current incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyltsen and one of Tsem Tulku's ordained "Pastors".

The current incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyltsen stated,
"........You (Dorje Shugden) are my Buddha, my yidam, my Guru, my protector...".

According to all of them the answer is a definite YES.

You have provided not one piece of evidence to the contrary except the opinion of "Lightning" Tulku Rinpoche.

You also stated that "We need to be able to distinguish what is truth from falsehood".

I have provided "Truth" that is distinguished from your "Falsehood".

This website and Tsem Tulku's website have stated that Dorje Shugden is a YIDAM.

You have stated that your "Guru" states that their claims are wrong.

You will not name your "Gelugpa Guru" because you don't one.

Your words are your words and no from no one else.

Your words are false and without any proof.

You are false.

Have a good life "Lightning" Tulku Rinpoche.

I will with Dorje Shugden as my YIDAM.