Author Topic: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?  (Read 89489 times)

Helena

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2010, 07:41:22 PM »
Btw, can someone tell me if there is really no reincarnations of the Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen? Is his line of incarnations really cut off to this day? No one has made any attempt to find his new incarnation? Many thanks. I'd truly appreciate it as I am new here.
Helena

jingang

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2010, 01:17:10 AM »
Btw, can someone tell me if there is really no reincarnations of the Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen? Is his line of incarnations really cut off to this day? No one has made any attempt to find his new incarnation? Many thanks. I'd truly appreciate it as I am new here.

Hi Samayatree,
I believe there are reincarnations of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen in the world, but perhaps due to the political situations, especially now, they will not recognise him, because the authority is the Dalai Lama usually? I don't think the Tibetan government or the Dalai Lama will want to do anything like that now even if the reincarnation is alive.

Vajraprotector

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2010, 01:23:06 AM »
I share the same view as jingang. It's not unusual and they have done it before. For example, when Pabongkha Rinpoche was found to be a reincarnation of the Changkya line, which included the illustrious scholar Changkya Rolpay Dorje (1717-1786), who is one of the tutor of the Chinese emperor himself, due to the sensitivityto the pressure put on by China at that time, the Tibetan government ruled out the name Changkya and didn't recognise Pabongkha Rinpoche as who he was, but rather declared Rinpoche to be "Pabongka" instead.

I don't think the Tibetan government will want to recognise the reincarnation of their "enemy" even if they knew who it was. Not surprising!

jingang

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2010, 01:32:50 AM »
Perhaps a golden vase upon which the reincarnations of Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama are decided can be used to recognise a potential candidate?

Vajraprotector

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2010, 01:45:47 AM »
Perhaps a golden vase upon which the reincarnations of Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama are decided can be used to recognise a potential candidate?

Dear Jingang,
It's not really about the system of recognising the lama, but rather whether it will be followed.

I am sure if even a candidate was found, they would have been ostracised purely or given death threats by the Tibetans who are anti-Shugden , just like how the other Shugden monks and high lamas and choktrul Rinpoches like Zong Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongkha Rinpoche have been treated.

Also, it is also possible for them to enthrone their own candidate and get him to swear he will give up the practice of Shugden, hehe.

I only believe it if the Rinpoche is recognised by Dorje Shugden oracle himself. For example, the 2 Panchen Lamas and 2 Karmapas have caused great predicament due to being recognised by different parties. We lay people with no attainments definitely cannot tell who is who.


For example, what I have read in Alex McKay's The History of Tibet,  (page 562) might be of interest here.

"After 1792, when the emperor suspected that much of the trouble leading of the Gurkha war had been caused by the discovery of reincarnating lamas in influential families, it became theoretically one of the tasks of the ambans to see that the names of suitable candidates should be drawn haphazard from a golden case which the emperor presented for the purpose. In practice that arrangement was rarely followed and when it was, the circumstances suggest that the Tibetans had taken care to ensure that the name of which they had already decided came first out of the case".

jingang

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2010, 02:07:24 AM »
I think samayatree's question has not been answered. So is there any officially recognised reincarnations of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen?

Vajraprotector

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2010, 02:09:54 AM »
I think samayatree's question has not been answered. So is there any officially recognised reincarnations of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen?

This is what I've read online:

After Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen’s murder, there was never another reincarnation of the upper residence sought or recognized. Instead, according to the Fifth Dalai Lama’s autobiography, on the advice of the Nechung oracle, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen’s residence at Drepung was dismantled and his reliquaries were relocated by Sonam Rabten.


jingang

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2010, 02:16:28 AM »
I am very intrigued by this.

First Nechung gets Duldzin to swear to become a protector. Then he helped Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen became Dorje Shugden. Then he advises Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen's residence to be dismantled. And now he again advises for people to stop practising.

I can't decide if Nechung is a crucial force to help promote this protector further, since he was the one who created the causes for this protector to arise; or merely he is the force that is trying to ruin the lineage of Duldzin since the time of Tsongkhapa by making Duldzin into a "mere" protector now while Dalai Lama has been escalated to the spiritual king of Tibet.


Vajraprotector

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2010, 02:35:26 AM »
CHAPTER XXII THE STATE ORACLE Oracles and Demons of Tibet: The Cult and Iconography of the Tibetan Protective Deities,
The southern gate(1) is held closed in accordance with an old tradition that the chos skyong rDo rje shugs ldan is waiting at this entrance for the day to come on which he will be allowed to enter the monastery, to succeed Pe har as the chief dharmapala of Tibet after the former has become a ‘jig rten las ‘das pa’I srung ma and has vacated the temple.

I've gotten confirmation from a previous thread that I posted this that it means Dorje Shugden will take over as the chief dharmapala of Tibet (I believe is Tibetan Buddhism as physical Tibet is currently lost) when Pehar (Nechung) becomes enlightened.

So if Nechung is on his way to become enlightened, I think he can't be the bad guy? It was already predicted that Dorje Shugden will take over Nechung's position. Nechung was also the one who helped to create Dorje Shugden.

jingang

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2010, 02:43:25 AM »
Yes, but on the contrary, it could also be that Nechung is jealous and hence creating all sorts of problems for Dorje Shugden now. Just look at what Nechung has advised for stopping the practice of Dorje Shugden (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3883)


The Dalai Lama’s “investigations” involve invoking Nechung through the human State Oracle, who has had the following things to say (perhaps some of these were given in a false trance? It is difficult to know.):

1st answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden a powerful deity, only to be worshipped by beings with high realizations. However worshipping this deity would upset Goddess Palden Lhamo (a superior protecting deity, who does not have an oracle)”

2nd answer of the State Oracle: “the deity is appropriate to be worshipped by an individual, but not by a group”

3rd answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden is a deity, suitable to the others, but not to the successor of the 5th Dalai Lama and those working for the Gaden Phodrang Government established by the 5th Dalai Lama.”

4th answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden is a spirit born out of a Kagyupa-monk who hated the Tibetan government, and not the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen”

5th answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden is the spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, whose Samaya bond to the 5th Dalai Lama was not good, thus it is harmful for this government.”

6th answer of the State Oracle: “Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a good lama, whose works of composition are praiseworthy, therefore Dorje Shugden cannot be the spirit of such a master.”

7th answer of the State Oracle: “Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself was a false Tulku, who came to be among the candidates for the 5th Dalai Lama and failed to be chosen, but through clever tactics of his mother on the first Panchen Lama Chokyi Gyaltsen, he was recognized as the fourth reincarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa (the teacher of 3rd Dalai Lama), but was then born as an evil, trouble-making spirit to harm the Tibetan government.”
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 03:24:33 AM by jingang »

Vajraprotector

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2010, 03:05:49 AM »
Well, it's not the first time that Nechung oracle made such mistakes or being inconsistent.

Many of the foibles of the Nechung oracle are covered in Chapter 58 of The Honourable Field of Sir Charles Bell Portrait of the Dalai Lama, first published in 1944. This was one of the earliest glimpses into the life and nature of the Dalai Lama and his institution and this chapter mainly describes the death of the 13th Dalai Lama. In this chapter, we find a recollection of the British invasion of Tibet:

Later on, it was noticed that the prophecies issuing through the prophet of the Nechung Oracle were wrong and harmful. At the time of the British military expedition to Lhasa in the Wood Dragon year [1904], he gave out that the Tibetan Government should send soldiers against the British, but that the soldiers should not fire their rifles; this is what happened at Guru.

As a result, the Tibetans suffered a devastating military defeat at the hands of Colonel Younghusband. In response to this, Bell notes that the oracle was dismissed from duty:

That prophet had been dismissed after the British expedition, but two or three years ago the Precious Protector [the 13th DL] reinstated him, allowing the deity to come again inside him.


The latest big one of these was the famous statement hat Tibet would be free by the year 2000. How devastating for all Tibetans, of whom probably most believed that the news came directly from His Holiness’ clairvoyant mind.

Nechung has been scolded, slapped and his oracles sacked many times in his history.

His Holiness has mentioned that the problem with oracles is that they are not always reliable. The fault does not necessarily lies with the deity Nechung, but the oracle.

Also, why is it that His Holiness still keeps Nechung around although he's unenlightened and made mistakes? Guru Rinpoche subdued Nechung with his tantric powers and appointed him to protect the Dharma in Tibet and HH the Dalai Lama has had a special relationship with Nechung over many lifetimes as he serves as state oracle. Surely there must be reasons.

Perhaps Nechung too play a role in assisting to make swift the path of Dorje Shugden becoming the chief Dharmapala of this age and take over him. Why would he create his "replacement" Dorje Shugden and then try to sabotage Dorje Shugden when Nechung is predicted to be on his way out to enlightenment?

Again, please do not confuse the oracle and the deity.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 03:20:03 AM by Vajraprotector »

Helena

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2010, 04:27:04 AM »
Firstly, I'd like to thank those who have taken the time and trouble to answer my question about any reincarnations of Tulku Drakpa. Much appreciated. As with everything else that has come to pass, inconsistencies and confusion may be just the necessary tools in fulfilling a BIGGER PICTURE at hand. It could be that everyone, including HH DL and Nechung are playing their own roles in making certain things possible. Would it not be so interesting if in fact there is a reincarnation who has been among us all this time, but waiting for the right time to come out of the closet - so to speak? Because if you look at how the events are unfolding, it seems to be leading up to a sort of grand finale or climax? I'd say, we should just watch closely and perhaps not be too hasty in judging. After all, we are not the Enlightened Ones.
Helena

cleojean

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2010, 08:57:40 AM »
Would discovering and enthroning a reincarnated Tulku Drakpa resolve the situation any more or create more problems? What do you all think?
Firstly, I'd like to thank those who have taken the time and trouble to answer my question about any reincarnations of Tulku Drakpa. Much appreciated. As with everything else that has come to pass, inconsistencies and confusion may be just the necessary tools in fulfilling a BIGGER PICTURE at hand. It could be that everyone, including HH DL and Nechung are playing their own roles in making certain things possible. Would it not be so interesting if in fact there is a reincarnation who has been among us all this time, but waiting for the right time to come out of the closet - so to speak? Because if you look at how the events are unfolding, it seems to be leading up to a sort of grand finale or climax? I'd say, we should just watch closely and perhaps not be too hasty in judging. After all, we are not the Enlightened Ones.

Helena

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2010, 05:30:49 AM »
I think, and this is just my 2 cents' worth - discovering the reincarnated Tulku is not the whole point. Perhaps he is already discovered, and is just waiting. What would be really useful and impactful IS when such an annoucement is made at the right time and place. At this time, when so many people are divided, some are losing hope and some are just plain confused but do not dare ask or even talk about it, we give them HOPE by being better and becoming the Buddhists who we all aspire to be and stand firm so that we are not dragged into the crazy mud-sling of a war. If when the Chinese took over Tibet and the Tibetan Masters can remain as they are, uncontaminated and still so devoted to their faith, then why can't we do the same? No one can take the Dharma away from inside us. And so, we can help others with the same compassion, care, respect and unbias understanding. This is why we all learn the Dharma, to become better - much better than the people we were. Hope this helps.
Would discovering and enthroning a reincarnated Tulku Drakpa resolve the situation any more or create more problems? What do you all think?
Firstly, I'd like to thank those who have taken the time and trouble to answer my question about any reincarnations of Tulku Drakpa. Much appreciated. As with everything else that has come to pass, inconsistencies and confusion may be just the necessary tools in fulfilling a BIGGER PICTURE at hand. It could be that everyone, including HH DL and Nechung are playing their own roles in making certain things possible. Would it not be so interesting if in fact there is a reincarnation who has been among us all this time, but waiting for the right time to come out of the closet - so to speak? Because if you look at how the events are unfolding, it seems to be leading up to a sort of grand finale or climax? I'd say, we should just watch closely and perhaps not be too hasty in judging. After all, we are not the Enlightened Ones.
Helena

happyxiao73

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Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2010, 09:52:56 AM »
"If when the Chinese took over Tibet and the Tibetan Masters can remain as they are, uncontaminated and still so devoted to their faith, then why can't we do the same? No one can take the Dharma away from inside us. And so, we can help others with the same compassion, care, respect and unbias understanding. This is why we all learn the Dharma, to become better - much better than the people we were. Hope this helps. "

I really like what samayatree wrote this paragraphy. Yes, noone can take the Dharma away!! no one. Why we learn dharma, because we want to practice care into people around us.

I saw Lama Zopa few weeks ago in a book fair. Lama Zopa had four days teaching at there. I saw a high Lama in his throne, while he talked then he cough. To me, I not his student, but I can feel his compassion and love to all the sentient being. As a high lama he didn't care about politic, finance, environment.......but i can feel he is very compassion. He has hoping everyone can learn Dharma and understand Dharma more then make thier life more better.

Like i say, i dont know this high lama at all, but i really can feel his love even though i only sat at there listen for ten minutes his dharma talk. This all because we have Dharma.

So, my point is Dharma is dharma; it is not belong to everyone but yet it is belong to everyone!!!
Thank you samaytree for your point!