dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ratna Shugden on June 09, 2010, 01:08:06 PM
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The great protectoress, Palden Lhamo's dice divination is quite well-known. I heard that there are also divination methods by Dorje Shugden, but I could find any documents relating to this. Does anyone have any information on this? I seems good to be able to have the means to seek Dorje Shugden's advice, especially on difficult issues.
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The great protectoress, Palden Lhamo's dice divination is quite well-known. I heard that there are also divination methods by Dorje Shugden, but I could find any documents relating to this. Does anyone have any information on this? I seems good to be able to have the means to seek Dorje Shugden's advice, especially on difficult issues.
Do you wish for the documents in order to learn how to perform Dorje Shugden's dice divination? One has to do extensive retreats and have the blessings of the lama before being able to seek Dorje Shugden's clairvoyant advice thru divination.
I can imagine, in stores around the world, Dorje Shugden divination kits - just like how people can just pick up a set of tarot cards and 'foretell' the future. Scary.
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Yes, i heard that it's not so simple to do divination. One must be a qualified person, specially trained, take certain vows etc. This is because when the diviner (is there another word?) requests for assistance from the higher Beings, he or she must know WHO they are propitiating. There are spirits who masquerade as enlightened Beings and if we are not qualified, we will not be able to tell the difference and this may cause more harm than good.
As they always say - do not try this at home! :)
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Dorje Shugden Divinations:
1.) There are two current text on divination in use and circulation. His Eminence Kyabje Dagom Dorje Chang composed one text and Dorje Shugden Himself took trance and composed the original one. They are both highly accurate on the hundreds of occasions divination was consulted to Dagom Rinpoche by my associates/friends/dharma students.
2.) When Dorje Shugden took trance of the previous Choyang Dulzin Kuten, he was in trance for over two hours. Dorje Shugden gave the direct lineage, oral transmission, and explanation of this text. In other words, he composed on the spot this sacred text. Amazing as Shugden gave transmission on his own text he composed on the spot. Start of a lineage. It was compiled by the then secretary in audience with Dorje Shugden in his peaceful form as Dulzin. If I am not mistaken, the secretary is the current abbot of Shar Gaden, the Most Venerable Geshe Lobsang Pende-lak. I am referring to the Dorje Shugden composed text below.
3.) It's broken down into 6 basic sections with subsections and Intro's advice:
A. Intro advice
B. The six basic sections are for the 6 faces of the dice. Depending which side the dice falls, each side is broken down into approximately 10 subsections. Each Subsection gives details of results, to engage in a certain action being asked or to avoid or otherwise, pujas, remedial solutions, etc.
10 subsections that the questions are divided into:
Dharma Activity
visitors/friends
House & Place
Success
Legal Actions
Sickness
Life Span
Spirits
Medical Treatments
Travelling Wealth & Resource
4.) In order to engage in this profound practice of Divination relying on the infallible Dorje Shugden, it is highly recommended:
a. Recieve the empowerment of Tsongkapa (Je Tse Zin Ma), engage in formal retreat with minimum of 100,000 migtseymas. No fire puja.
b. Recieve the initiation of Yamantaka, solitary or 13-Deity is fine, engage in the retreat. Minimum 400,000 main mantra, and 40,000 other three mantras each. Seal with a sacred Fire Puja.
c. Recieve Sogtae (life entrustment) of Dorje Shugden, engage in a extended retreat at least 1,000,000 (one million minimum) main mantra and secondary mantry 100,000 is ok. Seal with a sacred Dorje Shugden Fire puja.
5.) Then upon finishing retreat, request one's lama permission to start the divinations and can get one's divination dice consecrated by one's lama.
Of course one's does not engage in such sacred retreats with the motivation JUST TO DO DIVINATIONS. That would be a 'waste'. One should do with the highest of motivations as in Lam Rim Prayers or King of Prayers. The side benefit would be the ability to divine the future for situations beyond logical thinking or a logical course of action.
6.) When one has finished the retreat, recieved the permission of one's lama, then everyday prior to divination, one is to recite Hung Rang Nyi Yidam, etc. 3x, offer serkym and with a good motivation one may recieve questions and proceed to divine to help others.
This is a short run down of the details, requirements and procedures behind the highly accurate divination method of the Enlightened Dorje Shugden.
TK
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Thank You TK you have 101% answered by questions! I hope that in every lifetime I can purely complete all the requirements as listed in the text by Dorje Shugden himself. As a Dorje Shugden practitioner, it is my wish that this tradition of Dorje Shugden's Divination will be preserved forever, even if it is only reserved for very high lamas.
I feel that great teachers of our present time who can do this divination, so make it know to the Shugdenpa circle, to bring this tradition back to prominence. The current situation looks like this practice is dying out, which isn't good.
Till then, whenever I have any problems which I can't solved by myself, I shall recite the Heart Jewel and Dorje Shugden's mantras sincerely and pray for His guidance.
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Thank You TK you have 101% answered by questions! I hope that in every lifetime I can purely complete all the requirements as listed in the text by Dorje Shugden himself. As a Dorje Shugden practitioner, it is my wish that this tradition of Dorje Shugden's Divination will be preserved forever, even if it is only reserved for very high lamas.
I feel that great teachers of our present time who can do this divination, so make it know to the Shugdenpa circle, to bring this tradition back to prominence. The current situation looks like this practice is dying out, which isn't good.
Till then, whenever I have any problems which I can't solved by myself, I shall recite the Heart Jewel and Dorje Shugden's mantras sincerely and pray for His guidance.
Dear RatnaShugden,
This practice is not for only high lamas. This is for anyone sincere and does the divinations free of the 8 worldly dharmas as best as you can. The accuracy will depend on your samaya, guru devotion, motivation and 'upkeep' of your Dorje Shugden commitments.
You can consult a qualified lama and recieve this practice if you wish to go all the way. You can recieve the lineage, do the retreats, and fire pujas in Shar Gaden. One retreat every six months?? The Abbot can confer on you the sacred initiations.
Let me please stress again, it is a side benefit of all the retreats. Tsongkapa, Yamantaka, Dorje Shugden retreats are to clear obstacles to realizing the real non-dualistic nature of the mind thereby propelling yourself to Liberation. Wisdom is so needed, what more better than Manjushri in Lama form-Tsongkapa, Manjushri in Yidam form-Yamantaka and Manjushri in Protector form-Dorje Shugden.
The Gelugs have a saying that we practice Lama Manjushri, Yidam Manjushri and Protector Manjushri. That is to all awaken the Manjushri within us lying dormant for aeons.
Good luck.
TK
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Who on god's green earth has time for this? ??? It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.
Someone who is truly committed and willing to devote their lives to benefiting others with Dorje Shugden's practice? I imagine it would be someone who doesn't let laziness and the fear of 'giving up' their current lifestyle affect their resolve to do his practice.
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I'm not really sure what the point of talking about these uncommon practices and related qualifications publicly is exactly, it may not be appropriate. It may attract people interested in setting up their own little mo business, etc.
Dear Trinley Kalsang,
I have done the whole process of retreats (Tsongkapa/Yamantaka/Shugden with fire pujas) over ten years back as I described above. And I did not do it for mo purposes. I made the time for it and it was one of the best times in my life. I took 3.5 full months out of my schedule and engage in each retreat systematically under the guidance of a Geshe who resides in Europe now. I finished it all in 3.5 months straight. I did three to four sessions a day and it was tough but I would do it again.
The point of talking about this is to show that there is a system of practices to follow when you wish to do mo to make sure it is accurate. Just like the lengthe and extent of practices would discourage you, it would discourage other people. Secondly, I wrote out the details because RatnaShugden on the post ask regarding mo, so I took the time to write it out and share with them upon their requests. I would hope it would be appreciated. And it was by RatnaShugden, and I am glad. I wrote out the procedure, but each procedure requires the study of the commentary and detailed methods to engage in each retreat, those are lengthy and not easy. Setting up a 'mo' shop is not easy at all.
There are many tantric texts/commentaries/meditations out in major bookstores also. It encourages many people to read through them without prior initiations as I have seen many times. So if beings with delusions wish to corrupt any practice, all the tools are there. Similar for sincere people, the tools are also there for there practice.
There are a few mo texts out already on sale in major bookstores around the world, example how to do mo with Manjushri, the text and it comes with the dice also. However, if people are not serious with the practices, mo will remain inaccurate.
Those who set up a 'mo shop', if after a while, people stop coming because their motivation not good, the mo does not fall accurately and they cannot collect money or charge, their shops will close. We cannot protect the world from charlatans, we can just do the best we can.
TK
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Who on god's green earth has time for this? ??? It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.
On god's green earth, I found the time and I did the complete retreats with fire pujas over ten years back. I have a very busy schedule and I love doing the full length kangsols. I will make time and do the retreats over again because it is so important. I recieved many benefits from the retreats I can see within my mind. Dorje Shugden is important to me and retreats are a way to open the Dorje Shugden (Buddha) potential within me before it is too late and death takes over.
I know of many others who have also done the same. I enjoyed the retreats (although tough) because I know of their benefits and I make the time.
TK
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Who on god's green earth has time for this? ??? It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.
Someone who is truly committed and willing to devote their lives to benefiting others with Dorje Shugden's practice? I imagine it would be someone who doesn't let laziness and the fear of 'giving up' their current lifestyle affect their resolve to do his practice.
You are right!!
TK
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Who on god's green earth has time for this? ??? It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.
Some people are just soo stupid, why even say this? what are you saying about your lama? What are you saying about the Dharma, duhhhh~!
You can't make time for the buddhist practices which make your life better, happier? Your just a beginner and will always be if your still after soo many years finding it difficult to make time for Dharma.
What a waste man.
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Since I rely on Dorje Shugden as my main Dharma Protector, it is natural to me that should I ever need to do divination to help me make a difficult decision, I will want to consult Shugden as my first choice, instead of turning to other sources. When I want to make a decision, I will do my best to consider every possible factor and look at the issue from other angles.
Divination to me, is a nice finishing touch, especially if the answer is from Dorje Shugden Himself.
I believe the many requirements of this practice is also a test of sincerity; if you desire this practice strong enough, you will want to meet every requirement in the shortest possible time.
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Since I rely on Dorje Shugden as my main Dharma Protector, it is natural to me that should I ever need to do divination to help me make a difficult decision, I will want to consult Shugden as my first choice, instead of turning to other sources. When I want to make a decision, I will do my best to consider every possible factor and look at the issue from other angles.
Divination to me, is a nice finishing touch, especially if the answer is from Dorje Shugden Himself.
I believe the many requirements of this practice is also a test of sincerity; if you desire this practice strong enough, you will want to meet every requirement in the shortest possible time.
RatnaShugden, surely you'd want to consult your guru first, after having exhausted all perspectives on the issue - after all, if your faith is rock solid, your guru's advice should be as good as a divination ;) don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning your faith! Perhaps you're practising real devotion, and not wanting to bring secular matters to your guru - I don't know!
I can tell you have faith in the Protector though. I've been taught that a student's faith will help to give them a clearer divination result. My guru has said that if a student has great faith in the Protector, and has great faith in the lama doing the divination, and has a history of following divination results to the T, then the result will be clear. Otherwise, it will be shaky, a little vague etc - I guess it reflects the student's samaya with their guru and Protector.
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You can't make time for the buddhist practices which make your life better, happier? Your just a beginner and will always be if your still after soo many years finding it difficult to make time for Dharma.
Well, it's just that I cannot find which stage in the lam rim divination is. I was always encouraged to practice lam rim. I was always encouraged to practice like Milarepa, keeping things as simple as possible, especially giving the lack of time in a modern lifestyle. Although I'm quite sure many great lamas do divinations that help beings, I'm not sure if Lama Tsongkhapa did divinations, so I'm a bit doubtful if it's a worthwhile pursuit for me.
You don't have to do divinations. You don't have to find it in the lam rim. If Trijang Rinpoche did divination and he also practiced Dorje Shugden, then why say divination doesn't fit into the Lam Rim so YOU don't 'accept' it and you accept Dorje Shugden. There's not one single mention of Dorje Shugden in the Lam Rim.
Many great lamas and geshes does divination. Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche wrote divination texts. You don't have to look further. Just because you like to be simple as possible, doesn't mean divinations doesn't fit into other methods to benefit others. Divinations does not make you Not Simple. Lama Tsongkapa did not practice Dorje Shugden also, so why pursue Dorje Shugden. You don't have to pursue everything, but that does not mean it is not worth someone else's time.
TK
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I always thought that it was the Lama that would decide if a student was ready for any special practices such as divination, or to be a medium (oracle) for the Protector.
Is it the other way around, the student would make requests, and if so, what student wouldn't want all the special powers? ego both ways, scared to ask, and bold to ask.
How does it work present day around the world?
anyone know?
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Who on god's green earth has time for this? ??? It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.
Thus, not all of us are doing mo. Well, we all have 24hrs in a day. If someone else can and we can't...doesn't it tell us what Dharma we are practicing... Buddha Dharma or Worldly Dharma.
I rejoice very much that TK has engaged in such intensive retreats and share it in this forum for us who has very little time for Buddha Dharma...
best wishes always
DSFriend
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I appreciate that TK has taken out so much time to write such an extensive post detailing the steps and retreats that go into divination. Clearly, as he has also mentioned, it is not just about achieving the "powers" to do divination but are very powerful in themselves as highly blessed and sacred retreats. The joyous effort, patience and faith required of such practice is a lesson in itself for many of us!
I find it quite offensive for a fellow forum member like Trinley Kelsang to say "Who on god's green earth has time for this? Huh It's hard to find time even to do a kangso" which is just unnecessarily sarcastic and downright rude!
The thread begins as someone's query about a particular practice and has turned into a discussion about whether this practice is relevant or not! How silly, This discussion itself is so unnecessary and such a dampener! I feel quite sad about this. We are here to question, share and learn, not to be sarcastic and write dismissive put-downs.
This isn't just about having a go at Trinley Kelsang but a call for everyone to be aware of how we're posting and the tone or motivation with which we are posting. I appreciate everyone's contributions of knowledge and experiences here - let's keep it friendly :)
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I'm not really sure what the point of talking about these uncommon practices and related qualifications publicly is exactly, it may not be appropriate. It may attract people interested in setting up their own little mo business, etc.
Dear Trinley Kalsang,
I have done the whole process of retreats (Tsongkapa/Yamantaka/Shugden with fire pujas) over ten years back as I described above. And I did not do it for mo purposes. I made the time for it and it was one of the best times in my life. I took 3.5 full months out of my schedule and engage in each retreat systematically under the guidance of a Geshe who resides in Europe now. I finished it all in 3.5 months straight. I did three to four sessions a day and it was tough but I would do it again.
The point of talking about this is to show that there is a system of practices to follow when you wish to do mo to make sure it is accurate. Just like the lengthe and extent of practices would discourage you, it would discourage other people. Secondly, I wrote out the details because RatnaShugden on the post ask regarding mo, so I took the time to write it out and share with them upon their requests. I would hope it would be appreciated. And it was by RatnaShugden, and I am glad. I wrote out the procedure, but each procedure requires the study of the commentary and detailed methods to engage in each retreat, those are lengthy and not easy. Setting up a 'mo' shop is not easy at all.
Dear TK
On the contrary, i am very encouraged after reading your post and knowing how intensive the retreat is. The reason I am encouraged is because many others have done it. You have done it. And why not I.
If Lama Tsongkhapa can do 3.5 million prostrations + mandala + everything else under the God's Green Earth...i can at least push myself to do more than I am right now...
My wish is to have a stable mind through prelim practices, free of 8 Worldly concerns..that I may be ready to engage in retreats to gain attainments. I have enough vertigo spinning endlessly in this samsaric life cycle...and so often feel helpless not able to truly help others...
... DSFriend
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Dear TK,
We the administrators of dorjeshugden.com find your writeup on Dorje Shugden divination very interesting, informative, detailed and helpful. Whether people want to do divination or not is not the point. The point is it is a great addition of knowledge towards Dorje Shugden’s practices or related. We will put it up in Dharma Readings on the main page, and we will also thumbnail this thread to be re-read again by people, because nobody has come up with this type of information before. We thank you very much and we hope you have no objection.
Thank you.
Admins
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Who on god's green earth has time for this? ??? It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.
Someone who is truly committed and willing to devote their lives to benefiting others with Dorje Shugden's practice? I imagine it would be someone who doesn't let laziness and the fear of 'giving up' their current lifestyle affect their resolve to do his practice.
I hope TrinleyKalsang you are just joking. Perhaps it's your work on the be bum text and other various research that has taken up most of your time?
Anyway, it is quite a sweeping statement to say that “Who on god's green earth has time for this?”
Need I remind everyone that Lord Buddha was on god’s green earth who HAD TIME to meditate under the Bodhi tree for long time- surely we have time for things that are important to us? The same with all the great masters who has so much responsibilities and work to do, and they managed to go through the procedures to be trained up to be able to do divination for the benefit of OTHERS.
You should rejoice because you are very fortunate to be born in a country where you went to school and are able to study the Dharma texts, but what about those who do not have the same opportunity? They deserve the Dharma too. Surely you don’t expect someone who hasn’t gone to school or illiterate to be able to study the Lamrim on their own and believe in cause & effect? There are reasons why certain practices are available for people due to the kindness of the Gurus, including divination.
You are great with scholarly studies of texts, and please continue to bring benefit to others by your generosity of sharing these knowledge with others, but also let others share their practices that surely have brought benefits to others. Buddha Shakyamuni gave 84,000 teachings for people to reach enlightenment. His methods include meditation, the study of philosophy, psychology, skillful debate, and above all, the cultivation of a pure view in all situations. All Buddhist methods develop mind's inherent richness and clarity enabling people of varying interests and abilities to avoid suffering and find lasting happiness.
I don’t remember Shakyamuni Buddha said the only way to enlightenment is through the Lamrim!
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Well, it's just that I cannot find which stage in the lam rim divination is.
This probably one of the most profound sentences written on this forum! Totally in line with the purest Lam Rim tradition of Pabongkha Dorjechang which unfortunately goes totally unoticed at the level of this forum. Sad!
Dear alexis,
Stop indirectly insulting everyone on this forum just because they don't agree with your views. "This is the MOST PROFOUND STATEMENT WRITTEN ON THIS FORUM?'~~~ is this statement in line with dharma and lam rim practices??
Please stop all this degrading. Many profound statements have been made on this forum. I appreciate all of them. They don't have to be in line with what I think, neither do I have to be insultive when they are not.
TK
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Who on god's green earth has time for this? ??? It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.
On god's green earth, I found the time and I did the complete retreats with fire pujas over ten years back. I have a very busy schedule and I love doing the full length kangsols. I will make time and do the retreats over again because it is so important. I recieved many benefits from the retreats I can see within my mind. Dorje Shugden is important to me and retreats are a way to open the Dorje Shugden (Buddha) potential within me before it is too late and death takes over.
I know of many others who have also done the same. I enjoyed the retreats (although tough) because I know of their benefits and I make the time.
TK
Dear TK
It is amazing and truly inspiring that you have not only received the highest of the high empowerments of Lama Je Tse Zin Ma, Noble Hero Yamantaka and the Almighty Dorje Shugden! Being able to hear the name of Je Lama is already something so rare and being able to receive His Long life initiation is beyond words that can describe! What more with Yamantaka and Lama Dorje Shugden.
I can picture how hardworking and dedicated u were during the retreats. I have myself done 50,000 Migtsema retreat (a simplified one) and it took me an arduous one week with pains in the back as I am not accustomed to sitting down for incredibly long hours. For you to do all three Manjushris - the Guru, the Yidam and the protector, it is truly amazing. I pray that I may one day do the same and accomplish the qualities of all three.
Thank you also for the brief rundown on the prerequisites of mo divination. It is indeed enlightening as we do not get much exposure to these information in our areas. Probably due to the fact that we have limited merits to be able to access such teachings!
I personally think mo is a side benefit and another means of benefiting the people in need. Especially when an oracle is not around to take trance of the Great King, this would be the next best method.
Other pettiness in life would not be of comparison for the highest thought and attainment - Enlightenment.
Keep up the good work my man!
Cheers,
H1N1
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Well, it's just that I cannot find which stage in the lam rim divination is.
This probably one of the most profound sentences written on this forum! Totally in line with the purest Lam Rim tradition of Pabongkha Dorjechang which unfortunately goes totally unoticed at the level of this forum. Sad!
Could you comment further for our benefit, TrinleyKalsang, on the importance for practitioners of including all experiences and Dharma practices in one of the topics of the Stages of the Path?
Please!
I think there is no doubt at all of the importance of studying and practising the Lamrim as a basis and firm foundation for all our Dharma practice. I don't think that TK, RatnaShugden etc are in any way challenging that in their discussion about divination, nor have any intention of undermining the importance of the Lamrim.
They are simply sharing and discussing a practice that is widely done and known within this lineage/tradition. Yes, it was not written in the Lamrim, but there were many, many other secret practices /experiences that Tsongkhapa had engaged in that were not documented down in his writings but revealed only later in his secret biography written by his students. There are many higher tantric practices, meditations, visualisations, retreats etc that are not laid down in the Lamrim. This does not diminish the importance of these practices or experiences in any way; just presented and taught in other, different teachings. The basis of course, undisputed, is still found in the Lamrim (and we are advised not to simply engage in the higher teachings without first having a firm and grounded understanding, study and even realisation of the Lamrim).
I don't think that TK / Ratna shugden et al are in any way suggestion that divination replaces or supersedes ANY part of the Lamrim. It is simply an enquiry and a sharing of information on a practice. Surely this should be "allowed" in an open forum and not so quickly dismissed and poohpoohed as "sad".
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Please stop all this degrading. Many profound statements have been made on this forum. I appreciate all of them. They don't have to be in line with what I think, neither do I have to be insultive when they are not.
If what I write is not in line with what you think, you don't have to feel insulted, as you said. Thanks.
TK is not saying that "we should not feel insulted". He is saying we shouldn't be insulting towards others, which is clearly what some of you are doing with your very degrading, sarcastic and dismissive one-liners. There's quite a difference there.
It doesn't seem very right that on the one hand you are discussing and promoting the sacred Lamrim, but on the other, you are discussing it in a context and tone of putting down others on the forum, their views and discussions. That's not very Lamrim like! Please everyone, as I said earlier, do consider your motivations and tone as you post.
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Many different kinds of divination methods are practiced by Tibetan Buddhist masters within all four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism.
When these divinations are performed, the practitioner enters into a visualization practice and invokes the energies or blessings of the deity associated with that form of divination. The practitioner is not acting as an oracle who is possessed by a deity, but rather, they are communicating with the wisdom aspect of the deity's mind, which is none other than our own deep mind. This communication can occur through a variety of mediums, such as reading the patterns of crow's flight, rock formations, the throw of dice, or on the surface of a mirror.
The ability to perform divinations for the benefit of others is acquired through intensive retreats under qualified masters and involves sadhana, mantra recitation and strong meditation practices. The motivation for performing divinations must always be pure - done solely to bring relief for the suffering of all beings and not for one's own personal gain or fame.
It is not unusual for Lamas to routinely offer some form of divination as an aspect of their service. Some of the more common forms include divination using a rosary, and dice divination. Other Tibetan divination methods include Dorje Yudronma's Mirror divination; Manjushri, Palden Lhamo, and Tseringma's dice divination; Gesar of Ling Arrow divination, dough ball divinations, dream interpretations, and divinations using butter lamps, shoulder-blades, and stones.
Perhaps it’s because these methods are not widely taught or discussed due to the nature of long & extensive retreats or practices and it requires strict training with teachers who has received that lineage/ training.
We should rejoice as TK has the good fortune (and put in the EFFORT) to study & practise the divination method verified by Dorje Shugden. It’s because of the great compassion of great masters that they still kept this tradition alive for us to be benefitted.
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Honeydakini,
If you read my remark carefully, in a calm state of mind, you will see that there was not pun or insult directed at anyone in my reply about the profoundness of TrinleyKalsang's remarks.
TK seems to take everything I write personnaly in the most succeptible manner. I cannot tame his mind on his behalf.
I don't make a fixation about what people write on this forum, neither do I loose sleep over it. Maybe TK should do the same...
Thanks for your honeysweet calming voice anyway.
Just a question, if we cannot tame our own mind, how can we tame others?
Also, I thought holy texts such as Lamrim etc is for us to work towards taming our own mind, not with the purpose of trying to tame others ?
Just something to share from Advice from Atisha’s Heart since the topic is about the Lamrim .
Since you cannot tame the minds of others until you have tamed your own, begin by taming your own mind.
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TK seems to take everything I write personnaly in the most succeptible manner. I cannot tame his mind on his behalf.
I don't make a fixation about what people write on this forum, neither do I loose sleep over it. Maybe TK should do the same...
Thanks for your honeysweet calming voice anyway.
Dear Alexis,
This is a formal request to you. You need not answer.
From today onwards, please do not comment on anything I post. I will not comment on any of your posts also.
I prefer to have no communications with you whatsoever at this time.
I find your posts very impolite and offensive. I do not have any power to request you to comment or not comment on anyone else, but I respectfully would not like any comments from you.
I will submit this to administration. I fully apologize, but I am very uncomfortable. With folded hands and regrets.
TK
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(sorry, would like to talk about divination instead)
Thank you TK for the valuable information regarding Dorje Shugden's mo/divination. We are very privileged to know about a rare lineage and personally, I think people should respect it and not put it down. I think divination is not part of Lamrim but using divination to contact a living Buddha like Dorje Shugden for critical answers... is compassion. Hence, it is Lamrim.
The divination answers obviously will come from Dorje Shugden and it will only work if one has the purest of intentions. Hence, it will not work as a business and I believe Lamas and practitioners do divinations to help people and not make money from them. I personally believe, Dorje Shugden will only bestow answers to those who are sincere to help others.
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My purpose of making this post is to find out more about practices related to Dorje Shugden, other than those which are quite well-known other than Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's Heart Jewel and Wish-fulfilling Jewel, Infinite Aeons, Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors. Naturally one of them is divination. Out of curiosity for it, and after searching the entire internet world on it, I could only find short sentences making very brief statements on it, hence I decided to ask everyone. No one can know everything in the world, and I am one of them. People who have faith in Dorje Shugden can pool their resources together, and everyone can become more knowledgeable about our protector as a result of this, I believe this forum is the right place for this.
I am in no way suggesting that Dorje Shugden's divination method or the answers obtain from it, can substitute or over-ride or challenge the following:
1. Your Spiritual Guides' love for you
2. Your Spiritual Guides' wishes
3. Your Spiritual Guides' personal advice to you
4. Your Spiritual Guides' divination results for you
5. The teachings of the Lamrim, and all other text/Sadhana composed by Je Tsongkhapa
5. Honest and sincere hard work in practicing the Dharma
I merely wanted to understand more about this particular subset of Dorje Shugden's practice, and if it is within my means to practice it everyday to strengthen my bond with Shugden further, maybe I can incorporate this as part of my daily practice or monthly practice. This was because I ignorantly thought that it is as simple as other divination methods available in the market, then I soon realize how wrong I was.
I can also use it as a tool to make divinations for people whom I am trying to help. It may not be necessary for me to reveal to people whom I am helping that I have made a divination on their behalf or reveal the results of divination. It's not about making myself famous or to satisfy my ego. When you are sincere about helping people, people whom you are benefiting may not even realize that you are helping them at all.
Unfortunately I come to realize that this practice is much bigger than I thought, but it gave me another goal to inspire me.
For people who know what Dorje Shugden stands for and his unique mission, which is all of us, we wouldn't even think of using his practices to start a business or for satisfying secular desires.
May we all use this forum for peaceful discussions, so that we can all have an enjoyable time!
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Who on god's green earth has time for this? ??? It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.
Dear Trinley Kalsang,
No offense to you but your comments only reflect your state of mind. Of course not everyone will be willing to make time and able to go thru such arduous retreats. Only very sincere and extremely serious Buddhist practitioners will put himself/herself thru such training in order that he/she can bring benefit to others as a result. From the procedures of retreat stated by TK, I can imagine it takes tremendous self discipline and endurance to complete such a retreat. TK did 3-4 sessions a day and completed it in 3.5 months. That is a very remarkable time to complete a retreat of this nature. Due to the intensity of this retreat, a lot of purification process will take place resulting in physical pain, illness, emotional and mental challenges for the retretant. A retretant who is not up to it will most probably give up midway and end up not completing the retreat. Even before going thru such a retreat, tremendous preparation is required eg getting sponsors to finance the retreat cost, finding a suitable place to conduct the retreat, receiving the initiations and commentaries from the Lama, studying the lengthy commentaries and learning detailed procedures of conducting a retreat , finding attendants to help make preparation during the retreat eg setting up tormas, offering etc. Anyone without a sincere motivation to engage in such retreat will not even get thru the first stage let alone the retreat proper.
As TK has mentioned the purpose of Tsongkapa, Yamantaka, Dorje Shugden retreats are to clear obstacles to realizing the real non-dualistic nature of the mind and propelling oneself to Liberation which is what all serious Buddhist practitioners are supposed to do anyways. One does not engage in such sacred retreats with the motivation just to do divination. To be qualified to do divination as a result is a side benefit.
Why do divination then? Is divination even Buddhistic to begin with? Well, for anything to be Buddhistic depends solely on your motivation. Why do many High Lamas and advanced Buddhist practitioners go thru such retreats and engage in divination? There are many people out there who encounter problems that cannot be solved with logical thinking eg spirit disturbances, black magic attack, severe sickness and other obstacles due to unexplained karmic results etc. To be able to divine the future and provide solutions for such problems will help such people tremendously and save them from a lot time, emotional, physical and financial agony. Great Buddhist practitioners do divination to help these people so that by solving their immediate problems, they can eventually be led to their spiritual path and practice to gain attainments.
Therefore to go through such arduous retreat so that one can do divination to help others can only be motivated by compassion. Of course not everyone has the circumstances to be able to do such retreats although one may wish one could. But to brush it off as something trivial or not worth while speaks volume of you. Also, since you do DS kangso, I presume you are from the Gelugpa tradition. By saying what you said, are you are implying that our lineage Lamas who went thru all those retreats to be able to do divination has wasted their time on something that is not worth while? Think before you speak. To even indirectly disparage someone who has higher merit than you has severe karmic repercussion. What more if they are your lamas or lineage lamas?
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A few follow ups on this:
1. I did a quick scan through the text mentioned and it only mentions one of the requirements TK mentioned as being a requirement (not the whole list of retreats). But perhaps if we are less clear it is better, because publicly discussing the branch practices is not appropriate.
2. In the concentration section of the Pabongkha Rinpoche's Lam Rim he specifically warns against divination, astrology, etc. as distractions for developing single pointedness and realizations. Even having all of the divination requirements may not be enough, I think some level of clairvoyance is needed to do divinations accurately, but that's my own view. I have little doubt the lamas that are known to do accurate divinations have some level of clairvoyance. And we are told clearly that shamatha meditation is the direct cause of developing clairvoyance.
3. The lam rim includes protectors on the refuge tree, so we take refuge in them. Also, there are three protectors that are protectors of the three scopes. Some lamas now say that Dorje Shugden fulfills the purpose protecting the three scopes, so Dorje Shugden is part of the lam rim. There's more that can be said on this but that's enough for now. Je Tsongkhapa relied on Dharma Protectors as well, especially Dharmaraja, Mahakala, Vaishravana and even others such as Kshetrapala who removed obstacles from Ganden's destruction.
There are basic retreats you can do to fulfill the necessity for doing mo. And then there are extensive requirements. It is up to the lama of the individual student to guage to do more, the minimum or combinations. There is nothing much to 'check'. Again personally I do not wish to engage in Mo. But I will request it of my lamas.
I did not do the retreats for mo.
Secondly "some lamas say that Dorje Shugden fulfill the purpose of protecting the three scopes so hence Dorje Shugden is part of the lam rim". Well that can apply to any enlightened protector of any lineage. Dorje Drolod, Vajra Vega, Gonpo Kur, etc etc. Yes they are enlightened and have the capability BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE IN THE LAM RIM.
Hence a practice does not need to be DIRECTLY MENTIONED in the lam rim to be 'ok'. But the lam rim can be a guideline. So the practices that would lead to the mo practice such as retreats of Tsongkapa, Yamantaka and Shugden are certainly approved by the lam rim. So if one of the SIDE benefits without wishing for it is the mo, it can be a distraction, it cannot be. Having a beautiful altar with richly decorated Buddha images to show your friends how pious you are is a distraction. Anything can be a distraction. Don't restrict so much and make Dharma dry, boring, and just for one type of mind. Be skilfull always to suit the many temperaments of beings of this age.
TK
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By saying what you said, are you are implying that our lineage Lamas who went thru all those retreats to be able to do divination has wasted their time on something that is not worth while?
Their advice seems to indicate it can be a distraction from the Lam Rim for beings who need to train in Lam Rim. Certainly they have already realized the Lam Rim meditations including shamatha and are able to engage in uncommon branch practices to benefit beings. Sorry I speak from the common lam rim point of view, what else do I know? Plus we should avoid playing into our critics hands, who say that we are interested in worldly gains, etc. Of course this is not really true, but it could appear to that way to some if we openly discuss these things.
Everything in samsara is a distraction. So doing any practices as best as one could is beneficial.
TK
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Sorry - i am going off topic again but i wish to address this issue which is sorely needed.
TK, this tension has been going on since over a week with my criticism of the brochure.
Generally, if you read my posts, you might sometimes find an uncompromising, a critical or even cynical attitude, but never direct attacks or a deliberate lack of respect towards other practitionners.
Now, I claim the right to be critical. I don't think we should always congratulate each others. This seems to be very problematic for may buddhists these days...criticism is on the verge of being labelled "unbuddist". However, many of past buddhist masters were uncompromising and critical, let's not forget that. Obviously, I'm not one of them and my uncompromising or critical remarks are often met with direct insults and attacks ad hominem, practices in which I try to avoid.
So if I hurted you in any way TK, then I should obviously apologise: I APOLOGISE, TK, for having offended you!
I hope this helps!
Now, instead of ignoring each other as you requested, I suggest that we read each others' comments more smoothly and be carefull in our replies in the future. This alone will help a lot as I have previously indicated many times.
If you still wish to cut communication, it's ok with me.
However, I DO wish to keep my freedom of thought and maintain my capacity to discriminate between right and wrong and to be able voice my thought about it, that is to disagree, without people always feeling offended by my style.
Yours in Dharma.
Dear Alexis,
As an outsider of this difference of opinion between yourself and TK and with nothing at all to gain (except maybe peace of mind), I would like to share my personal observations. I do find your style very condescending. This may be unintentional in which case, you may wish to contemplate how and why you are giving this impression to at least two people on this forum. If it is intentional, then there is not much more to say.
You do not make direct attacks but indirectly yes. Of course everyone has the right to be critical or skeptical but it is how we convey our differences of opinion... whether it is from a position of superiority or ego, or whether it is from a genuine wish to present your point of view. The undertone is sometimes quite overt. Even your 'apology' to TK as in your above post has a very insincere tone about it, sorry to say.
This forum is intended to be a safe space for Dorje Shugden practitioners to share, discuss and learn. The more senior and the more knowledgeable the practitioners are, the more decorum is expected. I believe respect and humility are signs of great Masters and what we all aspire to.
Please look within because only you know where your motivation is coming from.
Please respect others and if your style is not working, perhaps you might consider changing your style so that if you have valid points of view, it is presented more palatably for everyone. If how you say something pisses people off before they can even digest what you are saying, how can that be a good thing?
Please think why you are here - to benefit others or to put people down? There's no need to answer any of the questions i have posted - they are merely requests for you to self-examine.
May the powerful Protector, Dorje Shugden, clear your obstacles and bring you peace,
Kate
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As TK has mentioned the purpose of Tsongkapa, Yamantaka, Dorje Shugden retreats are to clear obstacles to realizing the real non-dualistic nature of the mind and propelling oneself to Liberation which is what all serious Buddhist practitioners are supposed to do anyways. One does not engage in such sacred retreats with the motivation just to do divination. To be qualified to do divination as a result is a side benefit.
Thank you WoselTenzin for posting this and I very much agree with you! Debating the "relevance" of divination or not is not the point. It is a significant part of practice, but like you said, it is an additional benefit of the main practices that we do, and we don't engage in these retreats just merely to do divination.
It's like, you don't go through 4 years of university just to enjoy the nice facilities of the Student Union! That's a side benefit - but you go primarily there to gain knowledge and learning!
In any case, divination on its own, without the simultaneous attainments of wisdom and a truly altruistic mind, would not work or be anywhere near as effective. It could become just another samsaric distraction.
A personal anecdote to illustrate this point:
I remember asking my teacher about the requirements to do divination and I balked when he told me the huge list of requirements and retreats, vows, commitments etc. I said (rather naively and stupidly) - "Wow you did all that to do divination?" He said, "No, I did all that because I want to gain realisations and Enlightenment!"
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A personal anecdote to illustrate this point:
I remember asking my teacher about the requirements to do divination and I balked when he told me the huge list of requirements and retreats, vows, commitments etc. I said (rather naively and stupidly) - "Wow you did all that to do divination?" He said, "No, I did all that because I want to gain realisations and Enlightenment!"
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Thank you honeydakini and WoselTenzin for your explanation. I find it weird why is it that there are much debate about practices or things that are not considered 'mainstream' or scholarly in this forum, e.g. divination, oracles etc. I mean any practice has its value and I am sure masters who kept these practices alive have their reasons to keep them and pass on their lineages.
Glad that this is still a democratic forum! :D
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Why do divination then? Is divination even Buddhistic to begin with? Well, for anything to be Buddhistic depends solely on your motivation. Why do many High Lamas and advanced Buddhist practitioners go thru such retreats and engage in divination? There are many people out there who encounter problems that cannot be solved with logical thinking eg spirit disturbances, black magic attack, severe sickness and other obstacles due to unexplained karmic results etc. To be able to divine the future and provide solutions for such problems will help such people tremendously and save them from a lot time, emotional, physical and financial agony. Great Buddhist practitioners do divination to help these people so that by solving their immediate problems, they can eventually be led to their spiritual path and practice to gain attainments.
Therefore to go through such arduous retreat so that one can do divination to help others can only be motivated by compassion. Of course not everyone has the circumstances to be able to do such retreats although one may wish one could. But to brush it off as something trivial or not worth while speaks volume of you. Also, since you do DS kangso, I presume you are from the Gelugpa tradition. By saying what you said, are you are implying that our lineage Lamas who went thru all those retreats to be able to do divination has wasted their time on something that is not worth while? Think before you speak. To even indirectly disparage someone who has higher merit than you has severe karmic repercussion. What more if they are your lamas or lineage lamas?
WoselTenzin I think you have hit the nail in the head with your very logical points on the whole purpose and reason behind anyone wanting to do divination in the first place. And Thank you TK for having the courage and discipline to have gone through the arduous retreats, and finishing it to be able to share it with us today. Even if we do not want to do divination, knowing how it all works does help one to understand about this practice of divination by Vajrayana Buddhist masters, which is totally different from the 'worldly' divination practices such as tarot card readings which is so prevalent everywhere.
My Lama have always advice not to seek or do such divination as it open up doors to 'worldly spirits'. However, the divination done by many high Lama's are trust worthy and their source and lineage are authentic for we're not contacting 'unknown spirits' but WOW! Dorje Shugden aka Manjushri!!!
Yes I agree many people faces a lot of dangerous desperate situations like illness that can cause death. And If you know of someone who can do divination and help point you to the right direction on what to do, wouldn't you want that? Especially since it's coming from the Buddhas?
I requested for a divination to be done for a family member before who was suddenly in ICU and dying, and my Lama helped me save her life by doing divination and telling me what prayers and pujas to do. Now this person is alive and living!
I also recommended a friend of mine who was disturbed by spirits to ask for a divination on what to do. He was new in Buddhism and honestly I don't think he'd be in the right state of mind to read the Lamrim at that moment, but now he is because someone helped him when they no one else could.
So if there are people who sincerely wish to help people, why not preserve this authentic reliable altruistic tradition, and I greatly applaud them (RatnaShugden etc) and give my prayers and good wishes to you so that your retreat be a success like TK's for the benefit of others.
xdsnowlion
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Wah, DS divination is increditable!!! Thank you all the information.
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:-X
I am newbie here, after reading this topic, my comments below:
DS divination information from TK inspired and help me to understand the dharma protector in depth, seeking divination from protector not mainly coming from worldly concern but to help and benefit others, eventually to get enlightenment.
WOW ! Great Great information about DS divination from TK
THANKS TK!!
XLF
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I can't speak for others regarding what they do or are interested in. For those out there that have been filled with doubt by many people who say things such as those who practice Dorje Shugden do it for wealth, success and things of this life I would like to not give them any information or impression that may lead them to that conclusion. No doubt Dorje Shugden helps people even in mundane affairs because we do have a lot of suffering in life. But as far as what I have read Dorje Shugden is a Buddhist protector that has taken particular responsibility to protect the Gelug tradition and its holders, if this key point is overshadowed by other matters it is unfortunate.
I don't think the intention is to belittle, undermine or overshadow the very sacred role that Dorje Shugden has within the Buddhist pantheon and Dharma practice. If it does seem there there is discussion about protectors being able to assist in what seems like mundane affairs such as wealth, health and success, I think any sincere lama or practitioners intention would be for it to be merely a method or avenue into spiritual practice - a means to an end, rather than the end in itself.
In the context of this particular discussion, the practice of divination is not just about wealth, material success and mundane affairs. Many consult protectors, including Dorje Shugden, on matters related directly to their spiritual practice/retreats and to the spiritual affairs of an institution or monastery. Even if certain divination questions may seem outwardly "worldly", the intention may be for a higher spiritual purpose.
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However, I DO wish to keep my freedom of thought and maintain my capacity to discriminate between right and wrong and to be able voice my thought about it, that is to disagree, without people always feeling offended by my style.
Yours in Dharma.
Dear Alexis
Please keep HARMONY at all times. This forum has been and is an incredible platform for learning, nurturing, and sharing of thoughts.. We do not have the luxury of engaging in daily debates in the great monasteries as a way of learning, but this online forum is as close as we can get. Are we free of karmic repercussions from our deluded minds in this forum just because it's ONLINE? Obviously not. Please be mindful and conduct ourselves with awareness...afterall, this is where friends of Dharmapala congregate.
Many people have given you feedback. Please be open and consider what has been shared.
best wishes
DSFriend
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Thank RatnaShugden for asking this question and Tk for taking time on writing the detailed explanations.
I am happy to know that there is a system of practices to follow and they are not just for high lamas. it proves that for anyone who is sincere and they perservere all the retreats, and with clean samaya, they can do mo to benefit others.
Thank you again TK for sharing this great knowledge.
Triesa
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Who on god's green earth has time for this? ??? It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.
Some people are just soo stupid, why even say this? what are you saying about your lama? What are you saying about the Dharma, duhhhh~!
You can't make time for the buddhist practices which make your life better, happier? Your just a beginner and will always be if your still after soo many years finding it difficult to make time for Dharma.
What a waste man.
Yes, man we need to make time for almost every thing. Just make time and you can do it.
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I can't speak for others regarding what they do or are interested in. For those out there that have been filled with doubt by many people who say things such as those who practice Dorje Shugden do it for wealth, success and things of this life I would like to not give them any information or impression that may lead them to that conclusion. No doubt Dorje Shugden helps people even in mundane affairs because we do have a lot of suffering in life. But as far as what I have read Dorje Shugden is a Buddhist protector that has taken particular responsibility to protect the Gelug tradition and its holders, if this key point is overshadowed by other matters it is unfortunate.
I don't think the intention is to belittle, undermine or overshadow the very sacred role that Dorje Shugden has within the Buddhist pantheon and Dharma practice. If it does seem there there is discussion about protectors being able to assist in what seems like mundane affairs such as wealth, health and success, I think any sincere lama or practitioners intention would be for it to be merely a method or avenue into spiritual practice - a means to an end, rather than the end in itself.
In the context of this particular discussion, the practice of divination is not just about wealth, material success and mundane affairs. Many consult protectors, including Dorje Shugden, on matters related directly to their spiritual practice/retreats and to the spiritual affairs of an institution or monastery. Even if certain divination questions may seem outwardly "worldly", the intention may be for a higher spiritual purpose.
I still would like to bring up my earlier standpoint in the other string in the forum.
No doubt that Dorje Shugden is a Buddhist protector who has sworn to uphold and protect the Gelug teachings but a Bodhisattva is a Bodhisattva. A bodhisattva cannot appear in one lineage, school or sect and not another? no? And at the same time a Bodhisattva's action can vary from mundane undertakings in life to leading you to enlightenment.
So let's not underestimate Dorje Shugden's power is confined to this and that. It belittles DS and everyone who believes in him.
Like I said, the Buddhas through their compassion lead sentient beings by their desires from the state of Samsara to the realization of the Buddha's intent.
cheers,
H1N1
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I'm not really sure what the point of talking about these uncommon practices and related qualifications publicly is exactly, it may not be appropriate. It may attract people interested in setting up their own little mo business, etc.
Dear Trinley Kalsang,
I have done the whole process of retreats (Tsongkapa/Yamantaka/Shugden with fire pujas) over ten years back as I described above. And I did not do it for mo purposes. I made the time for it and it was one of the best times in my life. I took 3.5 full months out of my schedule and engage in each retreat systematically under the guidance of a Geshe who resides in Europe now. I finished it all in 3.5 months straight. I did three to four sessions a day and it was tough but I would do it again.
Outstanding... have completed yamantaka retreat before and understand that It is a tremendous efforts to finished it in 3.5 months straight no easy task, I rejoiced and applaud for for such virtuous efforts. :D Thanks again for sharing valuable information with us. Hopefully I can request for Tsongkhapa retreat also.
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I was unaware of this debate going on on the forum!
I can see both sides. I too feel a little uncomfortable about divination as, like Tantra, it can be misused for mundane purposes. I remember reading Je Pabongkhapa who said that if we want to know what our future is going to be like, all we need to do is to look at our present actions.
It's also not very clear where divination and oracles fit into the lamrim, I get that too. It's a warning that we need to be impeccable in our motivation. Great Lamas like Trijang Dorjechang could use divination to help others because they had realized bodhichitta and so all their actions were great work for sentient beings. I, on the other hand, have too many delusions and too many distractions so it would be dangerous for me to get involved in this. I remember reading that Je Rinpoche trained in Tibetan medical methods and was a very good doctor, but he felt that even this was giving into worldly concerns and he appeared to regret doing it. Pure lamrim practice is the best insurance policy for our own and other's happiness - I truly believe this. Having said this, I rejoice in TK's retreats and knowledge of divination.
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I was unaware of this debate going on on the forum!
I can see both sides. I too feel a little uncomfortable about divination as, like Tantra, it can be misused for mundane purposes. I remember reading Je Pabongkhapa who said that if we want to know what our future is going to be like, all we need to do is to look at our present actions.
It's also not very clear where divination and oracles fit into the lamrim, I get that too. It's a warning that we need to be impeccable in our motivation. Great Lamas like Trijang Dorjechang could use divination to help others because they had realized bodhichitta and so all their actions were great work for sentient beings. I, on the other hand, have too many delusions and too many distractions so it would be dangerous for me to get involved in this. I remember reading that Je Rinpoche trained in Tibetan medical methods and was a very good doctor, but he felt that even this was giving into worldly concerns and he appeared to regret doing it. Pure lamrim practice is the best insurance policy for our own and other's happiness - I truly believe this. Having said this, I rejoice in TK's retreats and knowledge of divination.
I am very surprised to find the negative reaction to practices like divination or oracles etc. Just because it’s not in the lamrim doesn’t mean it is not valid.
And dear lineageholder, for discussion sake, I would like to quote you that you said “like Tantra, it can be misused for mundane purposes”. Well, even monk robes can be misused for mundane purposes – you should visit Asia where some don monk robes to get donations!
The fact is, divination methods (although it was made known here), you cannot practice it on your own without a Guru. And even if you wish to, perhaps your Guru might not think you are qualified. It is just like Tantra/ tantric practices.
I rejoice that TK has put up the methods so that we can all be aware that it’s not just some mystical initiation going on and ‘wa la’ the initiated now has superpowers to get answers from the God.
Sorry to be bitchy, but how many DS practitioners here were actually initiated to do the divination – ONE, TK. How many people were instructed by their Gurus to go read the lamrim & practice MORE? Think of this like ‘filtering’ for Tantric practices. Not EVERYBODY gets initiated to do Tantra, although tonnes of books related to Tantra has flooded the bookshelves all over the world. Tantra and these types of practices cannot be “bought” from a bookstore.
Pure lamrim practice is the BEST INSURANCE policy and that one cannot go wrong simply because you can do Lamrim practice even without a Guru and through self-study. But things like divination, Tantra etc, you can’t.
I wonder why is it the parallel of divination practice with Tantra has been drawn, but there was no discussion on how these practices are being transmitted in a similar way like Tantra.
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I am very surprised to find the negative reaction to practices like divination or oracles etc. Just because it’s not in the lamrim doesn’t mean it is not valid.
And dear lineageholder, for discussion sake, I would like to quote you that you said “like Tantra, it can be misused for mundane purposes”. Well, even monk robes can be misused for mundane purposes – you should visit Asia where some don monk robes to get donations!
The fact is, divination methods (although it was made known here), you cannot practice it on your own without a Guru. And even if you wish to, perhaps your Guru might not think you are qualified. It is just like Tantra/ tantric practices.
I rejoice that TK has put up the methods so that we can all be aware that it’s not just some mystical initiation going on and ‘wa la’ the initiated now has superpowers to get answers from the God.
You're right in saying that just because something doesn't exist in the lamrim, doesn't mean it isn't valid...that is akin to saying other traditions are not valid, because they don't follow the teachings set out in the lamrim.
I would add that the fact is, ANYTHING (whether tantra or not) can be misused for mundane purposes if the practitioner's motivation is a little off-centre. Even something as 'simple' as a black tea can be misused for a mundane purpose - how many people do you know offer black tea so their luck goes up, their nan is cured, their child passes an exam, their business becomes better? At the end of the day, no matter how holy the method, if the motivation is stained, so the entire action is tainted.
And I rejoice along with you re: TK's post. The fact TK has posted the methods shows that there is a method for it, and it isn't something just plucked out from the sky...and that it IS something attainable for everyone, if they put their hearts and minds to it, and weren't doing it just for themselves because that sort of motivation is impermanent.
Thank you honeydakini and WoselTenzin for your explanation. I find it weird why is it that there are much debate about practices or things that are not considered 'mainstream' or scholarly in this forum, e.g. divination, oracles etc. I mean any practice has its value and I am sure masters who kept these practices alive have their reasons to keep them and pass on their lineages.
Glad that this is still a democratic forum! :D
I recently had a conversation with a friend about this because I suggested Setrap's practice and he just couldn't get his head around it, despite being strong in his devotion to Lama Tsongkhapa (I didn't push it, Tsongkhapa's good enough right? ;) ).
I guess it's a cultural thing - some people simply don't believe that deities such as Setrap exist, but find it easier to believe that Lama Tsongkhapa and his teachings existed because he was an actual historical person. Likewise, some find it more difficult to believe in divinations and oracles, and prefer to focus on teachings they can apply directly to themselves (e.g. Eight Verses of Mind Transformation is something anyone can practise as it lacks any esoteric aspects).
Of course, it's not something I understand because if you believe Lama Tsongkhapa existed and was 100% valid in all he did, saw and taught, then you also believe he saw visions of Manjushri. So why be so selective in which deities you believe exist, and you believe don't (e.g. Manjushri exists, but Setrap doesn't)? Likewise, if you believe Tsongkhapa had attained Enlightenment (and therefore omniscience) and could see the route the monasteries would take with divinations and oracles, and he knew those practices were of no benefit, why did he not ban them outright?
But to each their own...I definitely think that acceptance of the validity of divinations and oracles is a cultural thing.
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Seems like divination is a dying art. Wonder if it is due to the high qualification one must have in order to do it or people can't access to it.
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As it seems that the topic has shifted to DIVINATION / LAMRIM, I would like to share the following.
From my little knowledge of the Lamrim, the headings that I found most useful to my practice (and even more so in the past few days) is within the 2nd Major Heading: GREATNESSES OF THE DHARMA (there are 4 greatnesses).
It goes as follows:
1. to realize that all the teachings are without contradiction. (thus -harmonious)
2. to see the scriptures as instructions. (turn the teachings into practice)
3. to easily discover the true thinking of the Buddha. (gain realizations)
4. to save ourselves from the worst possible thing we could do. (that is: abandon Dharma)
Wihout the realization of the first greatness the second, third and fourth are faulty (they are not real).
Everytime I am made to deal with something challenging by my teacher, I try to remember the essential importance of the first greatness and I focus on my guru devotion. After all, if my teacher would never challenge me, he would not truly be my teacher.
It is in that way that I looked at the topic of divination when confronted to it by my teacher for the first time.
With an open mind, and faith (faith in my guru being truly-fully-inmistakably knowledgable an skillful).
I hope this will help others.
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Seems like divination is a dying art. Wonder if it is due to the high qualification one must have in order to do it or people can't access to it.
It's not dying. It's alive and well within the Tibetan community. There are many famed Geshes and Tulkus doing accurate divinations for many daily even up till today. It's just will you commit to the actual practices involved. The practices are not specifically for divination but divination becomes a side 'benefit'.
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Dear Trinlay, there are many supportive or periheral practices or aids to physical and mental health to quicken or smoothen our spiritual path which are not mentioned in the Lamrim.There is no book that can cover everything to suit everyone in different environments.This is one very good reason why we need a Master or Guru.
Maybe a student is suffering from memory loss , and the Guru advices him to take some gingko or similar herbs to counter that problem. Just because the Lamrim has no such advice does not make it invalid for the Guru to prescribe it to his student. I believe a lot of Tibetan masters are very good in the healing arts besides divination, weather control and other prowess. Tibetan masters learn and harness whatever energy or knowledge in order to serve the purpose of gaining enlightenment.That's how committed they are to what they believe in and creating the right causes always.
In a way its like Bruce Lee. His approach is to have no fixed method or philosophy in fighting so that he can have all methods and options to deal with an opponent.
I was not very sure what are the 3 roots of Vajrayana which I often come across . Now I know definitively its the Lama/Guru, the Yidam and the Protector. Thank you TK for revealing this clearly.
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I used to be sceptical in regards of divination. I viewed the practice as superstitious.
After I followed my Guru who uses divination to help many people who found themselves in situations that are beyond logical reasoning or medical help. I began to see and accept that divination methods as a way for high Lamas to manifest their compassion and skillful means.
Buddhists accept the 6 realms. Then why not harness the energies of the divine to help people in difficult situations? The results will depend on how pure is the motivation of the person doing the divination and how strong is the faith of the person requesting for the divination. Once a result is delivered , to experience the benefits the person that asks for the divination should follow the prescribed practice or solution wholeheartedly.
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Divination is not a dying art. I have seen my Guru, out of his compassion, doing divination to help those in dire needs. How clear the results of the divinations will be based on how clean one’s samaya is to one’s Guru and the trust and faith one has on one’s Guru.
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I am going to see Laka Rinpoche next week for a divination. I want to ask what prayers and practices might be helpful for my mother who is sick.
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I am going to see Laka Rinpoche next week for a divination. I want to ask what prayers and practices might be helpful for my mother who is sick.
Dear Tenzin Sungrab,
It's lovely to see your faith in divinations, that you would even trust your mother's health in it. I find it inspirational. Would you care to share what made you believe in divinations if it's not too personal?
I will also do prayers for your mother's health and wish her all the best.
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Much of my faith in divination stems from how I have witnessed the results of divination play out in the lives of others.
In particular, I have heard many amazing stories about Laka Rinpoche and his ability to read into the tendrel (dependent relationship) of a given situation and give advice based on these factors. He often gives advice relating to which prayers and practices will be helpful in clearing obstacles and what causes will assist in bringing certain projects to fruition.
Also, many of the teachers who I respect also have great faith in divination. If it fits into the worldview of those who have such extensive Dharma experience, then it is something that I can put my trust in.
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Thank you for sharing Tenzin Sungrab.
I was just wondering...
is it considered not appropriate to ask a Rinpoche to do divinations as a High Lama's role is to teach the Dharma? Does a Rinpoche need to do divinations if he or she's an attained being with clairvoyance anyway?
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I know of some lay people able to receive help from Dorje Shugden 24/7 and He is someone who guards his samaya vows purely. Sometimes these people are able to have connections with divine assistance that they able to provide answers even without casting divination oracles. Basically, they have went above that level and at times may require to cast divination oracles to re-confirm answers.
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Thank you for sharing Tenzin Sungrab.
I was just wondering...
is it considered not appropriate to ask a Rinpoche to do divinations as a High Lama's role is to teach the Dharma?
I think you need to think why you are asking that Rinpoche for a divination. If you're asking for some worldly matter - like your business, relationship etc - then I would think it is not appropriate to ask a Rinpoche for divination. You totally degrade and lower down the lama to just being a fortune teller or just helping you on some really superficial level, that may not be beneficial to you at all in the long term. The lama can offer you so much more than that with all the knowledge and teachings he has to share.
Does a Rinpoche need to do divinations if he or she's an attained being with clairvoyance anyway?
yes, they are attained beings with clairvoyance, that's for sure. But sometimes students or normal people with a very low level of perception may not really believe that their lama has clairvoyance. There is a tendency of people to believe a "God" rather than a person who looks just like them. They believe that maybe there are limitations to what the lama will say, so the lama performs a divination for the sake of the students/lay people who may not believe him. It is quite sad that it has come to this, and that students don't fully trust their teachers
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Hey Tenzin,
How did your divination turn out?
I also had divination done when my mother was critically ill. Rinpoche prescribed a small puja in the monastery to be done by a couple of monks along with candle offerings and also 1million Tara mantras.
From a hopeless situation she came back from the brink. That was 7years ago and shes still going strong.
:)
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Hey Tenzin,
How did your divination turn out?
I also had divination done when my mother was critically ill. Rinpoche prescribed a small puja in the monastery to be done by a couple of monks along with candle offerings and also 1million Tara mantras.
From a hopeless situation she came back from the brink. That was 7years ago and shes still going strong.
:)
Yes, it was amazingly accurate! By telling Rinpoche only my mothers name and location, without even describing her illness, Rinpoche told me exact details of some of the problems my mother has had with some of her medicine. Then I was given advice on what she can do to alleviate the problems she has had. I was also given advice on what practices I can do to help clear some of the obstacles as well.
It was an incredible experience.
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Wow, I cannot believe that I have totally missed out on reading this very precious post!
Amazingly kind that TK has shared so much valuable information on Dorje Shugden's Divinations in here. These should not be taken lightly at all.
I am completely blown away that TK has actually completed all of it in 3.5 months and is actually qualified to do divinations to help anyone who needs an extra confirmation from the Divine in order to calm their minds or assist them in making a very difficult decision during a challenging time.
Reading this has truly inspired me in so many ways.
May I have the great sacred opportunity to serve and benefit others in the same way.
Personally, I rejoice that there are so many available methods out there to help all sentient beings.
Because every individual is so different and require different ways. How kind of the Buddhas and Enlightened Beings to create the various ways for us all so that no one is left behind or left out.
Again, I truly rejoice for you, TK and congratulate you in going beyond what any normal human being would do.
May I be able to do the same one day soon.
Thank you for taking the time to share all this very important information.
Thank you for giving up your own time in order to train yourself in the first place.
Thank you for caring enough to share your knowledge and experiences with the rest of us.
I, for one, have always enjoyed reading your posts and found them most meaningful/helpful.
Re: Divination methods of Dorje Shugden
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2010, 08:13:42 PM »
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Dorje Shugden Divinations:
1.) There are two current text on divination in use and circulation. His Eminence Kyabje Dagom Dorje Chang composed one text and Dorje Shugden Himself took trance and composed the original one. They are both highly accurate on the hundreds of occasions divination was consulted to Dagom Rinpoche by my associates/friends/dharma students.
2.) When Dorje Shugden took trance of the previous Choyang Dulzin Kuten, he was in trance for over two hours. Dorje Shugden gave the direct lineage, oral transmission, and explanation of this text. In other words, he composed on the spot this sacred text. Amazing as Shugden gave transmission on his own text he composed on the spot. Start of a lineage. It was compiled by the then secretary in audience with Dorje Shugden in his peaceful form as Dulzin. If I am not mistaken, the secretary is the current abbot of Shar Gaden, the Most Venerable Geshe Lobsang Pende-lak. I am referring to the Dorje Shugden composed text below.
3.) It's broken down into 6 basic sections with subsections and Intro's advice:
A. Intro advice
B. The six basic sections are for the 6 faces of the dice. Depending which side the dice falls, each side is broken down into approximately 10 subsections. Each Subsection gives details of results, to engage in a certain action being asked or to avoid or otherwise, pujas, remedial solutions, etc.
10 subsections that the questions are divided into:
Dharma Activity
visitors/friends
House & Place
Success
Legal Actions
Sickness
Life Span
Spirits
Medical Treatments
Travelling Wealth & Resource
4.) In order to engage in this profound practice of Divination relying on the infallible Dorje Shugden, it is highly recommended:
a. Recieve the empowerment of Tsongkapa (Je Tse Zin Ma), engage in formal retreat with minimum of 100,000 migtseymas. No fire puja.
b. Recieve the initiation of Yamantaka, solitary or 13-Deity is fine, engage in the retreat. Minimum 400,000 main mantra, and 40,000 other three mantras each. Seal with a sacred Fire Puja.
c. Recieve Sogtae (life entrustment) of Dorje Shugden, engage in a extended retreat at least 1,000,000 (one million minimum) main mantra and secondary mantry 100,000 is ok. Seal with a sacred Dorje Shugden Fire puja.
5.) Then upon finishing retreat, request one's lama permission to start the divinations and can get one's divination dice consecrated by one's lama.
Of course one's does not engage in such sacred retreats with the motivation JUST TO DO DIVINATIONS. That would be a 'waste'. One should do with the highest of motivations as in Lam Rim Prayers or King of Prayers. The side benefit would be the ability to divine the future for situations beyond logical thinking or a logical course of action.
6.) When one has finished the retreat, recieved the permission of one's lama, then everyday prior to divination, one is to recite Hung Rang Nyi Yidam, etc. 3x, offer serkym and with a good motivation one may recieve questions and proceed to divine to help others.
This is a short run down of the details, requirements and procedures behind the highly accurate divination method of the Enlightened Dorje Shugden.
TK
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Of course one's does not engage in such sacred retreats with the motivation JUST TO DO DIVINATIONS. That would be a 'waste'. One should do with the highest of motivations as in Lam Rim Prayers or King of Prayers. The side benefit would be the ability to divine the future for situations beyond logical thinking or a logical course of action.
All these practices, including things like controlling your rebirth, controlling spirits, etc are just the side benefits I think. I think the best benefit of all is being happy, and being able to bring happiness to others.
While I appreciate TK's post on divinations because it clears up misconceptions, I've also read that if you have full faith in your lama, then the best divination is actually their instructions, kind of like what beggar said. I think it's because we create our own suffering and our lama's instructions are aimed at cutting the habits that create the suffering for us...when we don't create our own suffering any more, is there a need for divinations?
That's not saying I've never requested for them (divinations I mean) ;D
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Since I rely on Dorje Shugden as my main Dharma Protector, it is natural to me that should I ever need to do divination to help me make a difficult decision, I will want to consult Shugden as my first choice, instead of turning to other sources. When I want to make a decision, I will do my best to consider every possible factor and look at the issue from other angles.
Divination to me, is a nice finishing touch, especially if the answer is from Dorje Shugden Himself.
I believe the many requirements of this practice is also a test of sincerity; if you desire this practice strong enough, you will want to meet every requirement in the shortest possible time.
RatnaShugden, surely you'd want to consult your guru first, after having exhausted all perspectives on the issue - after all, if your faith is rock solid, your guru's advice should be as good as a divination ;) don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning your faith! Perhaps you're practising real devotion, and not wanting to bring secular matters to your guru - I don't know!
I can tell you have faith in the Protector though. I've been taught that a student's faith will help to give them a clearer divination result. My guru has said that if a student has great faith in the Protector, and has great faith in the lama doing the divination, and has a history of following divination results to the T, then the result will be clear. Otherwise, it will be shaky, a little vague etc - I guess it reflects the student's samaya with their guru and Protector.
Yes RatnaShugden, what you wrote is true about the need to have faith in one's guru in order for the divination to come out clear. I have seen Lamas do divination before using moh. There were several occasions Lamas had to throw the dice many many times with full concentration yet the dice still lands on different sides resulting in different answers. The Lama explained that in such cases, its either the lack of faith from the part of the person seeking the divination or advices given to them from previous divinations were not carried out. Its baffling why one seeks divination under such circumstances!
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Do you believe it, even divination also need sincere, pure guru devotion and samaya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So don't blame your divination result not ideal but think about why??? May be because you not sincere enough or always not enough trust to your lama.......
Think before you want to do the divination!!!
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I can't wait to sure this with friends tomorrow so reliable and safe . I'm sure still have many people don't know about this .
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This is rather interesting and very informative. Thankyou! I always asume that perhaps the protector would whisper and show signs or visions for divination results... Pardon my ignorant. This is really eye opening and solve a lot of queries about divination. What a supreme blessing that Dorje Shugden took trance for 2 long hours to compile this text to benefit so so many til this date. I bet some who asked for divination didn't even know it's shugden sometimes... So many people benefited from it.... Just so many...
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I also believe if one to have oppotunity to request divinision also need some merit.
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Do you believe it, even divination also need sincere, pure guru devotion and samaya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So don't blame your divination result not ideal but think about why??? May be because you not sincere enough or always not enough trust to your lama.......
Think before you want to do the divination!!!
couldn't agreed more , in fact ...don't bother to think about divination if one does'n have the faith,trust n devotion to your lama.
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@nagaseeker : yes, why bother to seek divination if you are not prepared to follow the instructions to the "t"!
The results may not be the "answer" that you want, but nevertheless once the divination is done, you must
follow every instruction without fail.
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Few days ago, one of my friend called me up....this lady is freethinker and have a wrong view of DS. She told me can she help her friend who just diagnosed brain cancer??? Can she asked for divination from high lama?? I asked her, do she believed on divination? She cannot answer this simple question...
As a friend, I told her in traditional of Tibetan Buddhism, someone searching for divination advice, firstly must have very strong guru devotion or strong belief in Buddhism. She still cannot my question...finally I told her, if herself cannot truly believe to a high lama how you can ask help from them? She keep quiet for a moment. After think about herself don't have enough guru devotion and the faith towards a high lama so I choose let's her alone awhile.
My point shared with you guys this story, I always laughing alone, YES every one of us need to change, stay a dharma centre and not going to talking around. Through above short story, may be move him a lot. Divination result always included how strong your trust to you Lama and how pure your motivation are. So, let's us work hard on it.
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Divination is one of the method to help people who need help ie people who sick but dr. could not diagnose what wrong with that person.. Divination give you direction so that you know how to solve with problems you are facing.
Since divination can help people so people must believe and follow exactly then will get a result.
There is no point to ask for divination if the person do not believe because when the person get an answer, theen they will not follow, or follow but not all.
i have witness with my own eyes for people who follow divination and got result and people who not follow all the way and not get the result.
Have faith and follow all the way is the key to have result from divination..
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Hey Tenzin,
How did your divination turn out?
I also had divination done when my mother was critically ill. Rinpoche prescribed a small puja in the monastery to be done by a couple of monks along with candle offerings and also 1million Tara mantras.
From a hopeless situation she came back from the brink. That was 7years ago and shes still going strong.
:)
Yes, it was amazingly accurate! By telling Rinpoche only my mothers name and location, without even describing her illness, Rinpoche told me exact details of some of the problems my mother has had with some of her medicine. Then I was given advice on what she can do to alleviate the problems she has had. I was also given advice on what practices I can do to help clear some of the obstacles as well.
It was an incredible experience.
How is your mother doing now Tenzin? Are you still following the advice of Rinpoche.
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Hey Tenzin,
How did your divination turn out?
I also had divination done when my mother was critically ill. Rinpoche prescribed a small puja in the monastery to be done by a couple of monks along with candle offerings and also 1million Tara mantras.
From a hopeless situation she came back from the brink. That was 7years ago and shes still going strong.
:)
Yes, it was amazingly accurate! By telling Rinpoche only my mothers name and location, without even describing her illness, Rinpoche told me exact details of some of the problems my mother has had with some of her medicine. Then I was given advice on what she can do to alleviate the problems she has had. I was also given advice on what practices I can do to help clear some of the obstacles as well.
It was an incredible experience.
How is your mother doing now Tenzin? Are you still following the advice of Rinpoche.
Thank you for asking!! Sorry it took me so long to reply. I didn't see this post until today.
My mother is fine. Her cancer is in remission and she is getting stronger week by week.
Her hair has grown back and she has even started to work again part time.
I still see the Rinpoche who gave me the initial advice. His advice is something I have 100% confidence in. Nothing he has ever said has led me astray. I still do the practices he gave me and will continue until he thinks there is no longer a need.
This particular Rinpoche is very well known here at Shar Gaden, yet he is one of the most humble monks I have ever met. If I need to speak with him, he always makes time to answer my questions. We are very lucky indeed to have such a high Lama be so approachable here.
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Now that we know divination is not a dying art and that it is alive and kicking, well preserved in its tradition. We also know that there are methods to practice to make one accurate in divination but now who to go to receive such practices.
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From my study regarding China culture, Chinese like to consult or believed on fortunate teller's advices. They always believed that god or local deities will give them advices. But while I read through this DS's take trance, let's me realized that DS's divination is so powerful.
But, i also noticed that the Tibetan, means the DS's divination is good. No matter what question you want to ask, normally the result turn into perfect result.
Divination is high being method to spread good news or information to public, while they found out the result is so accurate. So, I think divination be part of the Tibetan and Buddhism. And it is very clear and accurate.
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I'm truly believe DS divination is very clear and accurate. The most sad things is people whom make effort and times to seek for divination, at the end of the day they cannot accept or believe the result. For example, result turns out request you to do 100 times fire puja or 1,000 times candle offering it will costs you a lot of many and times. Will they still believe in DS divination ??
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Firstly, if using feng shui, bazi, numerology, tarrot cards astrology and other such forecasting/metaphysical is so popular; and many will vouch that it is accurate, then I do not see divinations as being contradictory. Definitely if it is from an enlightened being such as DS, then the divination can be relied upon 100%.
If one were to study the Lamrim, we cannot see on the surface, where divination applies. Personally, I think that any kind of relying on unenlightened methods and refuge in not in line with the teaching of the Lamrim. if we believe that divination by enlightened beings being 100% accurate; and we can definite check this; then it provides a window or glimpse into our potential if we go all the way on the path of the Lamrim.
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Excuse me for my ignorance, I read that Protectors take instructions from High Lamas or Gurus. if one has a Guru and yet still need 'assurance' or 'guidance' from divinations, doesn't this reflect that the student doesn't have trust in his or her Guru? Wouldn't this be considered as broken samaya?
I've also seen in Taoism, a normal person take trance in worldly deity eg monkey god, 9 nagas etc. How does these result differs from Tibetan divination methods of Dorje Shugden?
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Dear TK.
Thank you for your most detailed and informative article on divinations. It is most useful to our group here as there is not an active dharma centre in our area that practice DS. You are most compassionate to go through all the preliminaries and retreats to get yourself ready to be able to do divinations. You have also listed everything that you can reveal. It is very comforting to know someone have been through all this tough requirements so that some people can be guided when they are really at loss and answers could not be found within.
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Thank you TK for the detailed explanation on divinations. The fact that one needs to gone through all the requirement, procedures, preliminaries, and retreats to get himself/herself ready to be able to do divination, it gives me more faith and confident on the divination by Dorje Shugden is 100% beneficial and accurate. It is not anybody that can simply give divination as they need to do all the ground works and be “approved” by his lama before he/she starts to give divination. As the divination will check all aspects, so the instruction is 100% can be done and aligned with Buddha Dharma. The normal people who take trance to worldly deities is no way to compare with the divinations given by the Enlightened Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden.
As the divination from the enlightened Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden is 100% accurate, one who request for divination should be 100% confident and 100% follow the instructions given by the divination. If we have asked for divination and do not follow the instructions given, then we are contradicting with the Dharma Protector’s instruction and create self-obstacles for Dharma Protector to help us.
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Excuse me for my ignorance, I read that Protectors take instructions from High Lamas or Gurus. if one has a Guru and yet still need 'assurance' or 'guidance' from divinations, doesn't this reflect that the student doesn't have trust in his or her Guru? Wouldn't this be considered as broken samaya?
I've also seen in Taoism, a normal person take trance in worldly deity eg monkey god, 9 nagas etc. How does these result differs from Tibetan divination methods of Dorje Shugden?
I guess it all depends. A guru will never boast of his clairvoyance to his students. Therefore, divination methods has always been used as a tool by lamas to tell the future. I don't think they actually need it. Due to that a student may not know that the guru has the ability of seeing the future. Then I wouldn't consider it as broken samaya. On the other hand, if the student is aware and yet requires "proof", then yes ... the trust in the guru is not there. This is why all the esteem, caliber gurus will never reveal their true attainments because the student may collect even more demerit by knowing. Why? Because it's like finding and recognizing a diamond on the road, yet not pick it up. In such case, it's better not to know the value in the first place.
Worldly deities and spirits are also known to have clairvoyance. A spirit travels at the speed of thought. Hence, the spirit is able to perceive information that way and able to tell you the right thing at that moment. Worldly gods can see up to a certain time period. So let's say you want to invest in a business that has much potential. Let's say the result says it's good because the deities can only see up to a certain time example for 30 years. After 30 years, the business goes bankrupt.
The Enlightened Beings can see pass that 30 years and will advise not to invest in that business. The divination result given by any Buddhas is extremely accurate because the Buddhas can see beyond this lifetime and many other lifetimes.
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Excuse me for my ignorance, I read that Protectors take instructions from High Lamas or Gurus. if one has a Guru and yet still need 'assurance' or 'guidance' from divinations, doesn't this reflect that the student doesn't have trust in his or her Guru? Wouldn't this be considered as broken samaya?
I've also seen in Taoism, a normal person take trance in worldly deity eg monkey god, 9 nagas etc. How does these result differs from Tibetan divination methods of Dorje Shugden?
I guess it all depends. A guru will never boast of his clairvoyance to his students. Therefore, divination methods has always been used as a tool by lamas to tell the future. I don't think they actually need it. Due to that a student may not know that the guru has the ability of seeing the future. Then I wouldn't consider it as broken samaya. On the other hand, if the student is aware and yet requires "proof", then yes ... the trust in the guru is not there. This is why all the esteem, caliber gurus will never reveal their true attainments because the student may collect even more demerit by knowing. Why? Because it's like finding and recognizing a diamond on the road, yet not pick it up. In such case, it's better not to know the value in the first place.
Worldly deities and spirits are also known to have clairvoyance. A spirit travels at the speed of thought. Hence, the spirit is able to perceive information that way and able to tell you the right thing at that moment. Worldly gods can see up to a certain time period. So let's say you want to invest in a business that has much potential. Let's say the result says it's good because the deities can only see up to a certain time example for 30 years. After 30 years, the business goes bankrupt.
The Enlightened Beings can see pass that 30 years and will advise not to invest in that business. The divination result given by any Buddhas is extremely accurate because the Buddhas can see beyond this lifetime and many other lifetimes.
What Aurore shared here is exactly what I learnt with respect to divinations given by wordly deities versus fully enlightened beings.
Enlightened beings can definitely see what is beneficial for us even beyond this life's time. Just want to add that I feel it is such a burden for the compassionate being like Dorje Shugden when many of us are seeking answers and miracles to our wordly issues for this life time only. And sometimes the enlightened one may not give the answer that we want or hope for, and then we do not follow the advice and ended up in a more messy situation. :( Remember enlightened divinations is directed to getting all of us to get out of this cyclic sufferings..... So if you seek a divination, better follow the advice 100% whether you like it or not. If you are not going to follow the advice, then you should not seek for divination through these wisdom beings in the first place. I also heard that when you do not follow the advice, and later on you have more issues and come and ask for divinations again, the results will not come out clear as you do not have enough faith to follow it anyway.
I want to thank TK for such a lengthy and detailed explanation and it is worthwhile to re-visit this thread again.
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I personally like the detail explanation by Tk- thank you for the sharing.
The explanation that moves me " Of course one's does not engage in such sacred retreats with the motivation JUST TO DO DIVINATIONS. That would be a 'waste'. One should do with the highest of motivations as in Lam Rim Prayers or King of Prayers. The side benefit would be the ability to divine the future for situations beyond logical thinking or a logical course of action."
Since young, i have accompanied my mom to go for oracle. Well, as part of the culture; people in my country seek helps when they have no other ways, helpless and hopes that the oracle will helps. Some oracle give ridiculous beyond imaginary kind of advise to people to solve the problems, poor them. E.g: burn and drinks some writing paper and the problems could be solved. As i learning to be a Buddhist, and, reading on Dharma books, i begin to understand that many of the causes are karma. If we can stopped the causes we could have stopped the effect. If we could have a proper divination, based on Dharma- imagine the problems could have been solve from the roots. Not only for this life, but next life.
By reading on what have Tk shared on the retreats. Is REAlly take a person sincerity , compassion to engage on the retreats as per mentioned. Therefore, the protector Oracle is more precious than the other oracle.
Once again thanks to TK for the explaination.
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Never perceive any predictions (Daily/weekly/annual horoscope readings & divination results from any method of divination) & proclamations by any sentient being about your future & the future of sentient beings in your life, as phenomenas which will definitely take place in the future.
We can change our future through Dharma practice:
(1)By engaging in Vajrasattva Purification Practice or other Purification Practice with renunciation & liberation from samsara & Bodhichitta as our motivations, we can mitigate the suffering which we will experience in future as retribution for non-virtuous deeds done in our previous existence & in the past in this lifetime.
(2)By engaging in virtuous deeds with renunciation & liberation from samsara & Bodhichitta as our motivations, we are creating the cause to experience worldly & supramundane forms of happiness in the future in this lifetime & each future existence.
Our future changes with each effort in (1) & (2), hence results from divinations becomes inaccurate.
There is no way we can confirm with absolute certainty if the Buddha/Bodhisattva/Arhat/Supramundane Dharmapala/Mundane Dharmapala under oath to serve the Buddha Dharma who is being invoked in the ritual of divination did respond to us.
It is possible for spiritual entities who are against the Budddha Dharma, who may also be karmic debtors of the sentient being who wants to know the future & the practitioner of divination, to masquerade as the Buddha/Bodhisattva/Arhat/Supramundane Dharmapala/Mundane Dharmapala under oath to serve the Buddha Dharma who is being invoked in the ritual of divination.
We do not know when we will face retribution for having deceived other sentient beings in our previous existence & in this lifetime.
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Never perceive any predictions (Daily/weekly/annual horoscope readings & divination results from any method of divination) & proclamations by any sentient being about your future & the future of sentient beings in your life, as phenomenas which will definitely take place in the future.
We can change our future through Dharma practice:
(1)By engaging in Vajrasattva Purification Practice or other Purification Practice with renunciation & liberation from samsara & Bodhichitta as our motivations, we can mitigate the suffering which we will experience in future as retribution for non-virtuous deeds done in our previous existence & in the past in this lifetime.
(2)By engaging in virtuous deeds with renunciation & liberation from samsara & Bodhichitta as our motivations, we are creating the cause to experience worldly & supramundane forms of happiness in the future in this lifetime & each future existence.
Our future changes with each effort in (1) & (2), hence results from divinations becomes inaccurate.
There is no way we can confirm with absolute certainty if the Buddha/Bodhisattva/Arhat/Supramundane Dharmapala/Mundane Dharmapala under oath to serve the Buddha Dharma who is being invoked in the ritual of divination did respond to us.
It is possible for spiritual entities who are against the Budddha Dharma, who may also be karmic debtors of the sentient being who wants to know the future & the practitioner of divination, to masquerade as the Buddha/Bodhisattva/Arhat/Supramundane Dharmapala/Mundane Dharmapala under oath to serve the Buddha Dharma who is being invoked in the ritual of divination.
We do not know when we will face retribution for having deceived other sentient beings in our previous existence & in this lifetime.
On Ratna Shugden's views, I'd like to explain what I know about Tibetan Divinations and why is it done in the first place.
What I do know is, divinations can be consulted for decisions that would potentially be a huge loss for the monastery if the incorrect decision is made, or when a person's life is involved. Sometimes, following a divination result to the very end determines whether or not a person lives or dies. From what I understand as well, high lamas do not need divination to find out the right answer, but they perform a divination to covince students who doubt their abilities, or because they are humble and wish to hide their clairvoyance. The divination answer is usually the one that will help change the karma of a person and therefore must be followed through with precision.
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I never really get the purpose of divination having been brought up in what would be classified as a western culture. I know divination is very popular in the Chinese culture. Maybe it's kind of similar to the western fortune telling or psychic reading but reading this thread it's seems like a entire different thing. Anyhow I find it strange to have a practice that people would consult divination and let the result of divination erect the course of their life. I guess the reason I feel it strange is that where do one stop asking then if one start to rely on the results of divination to determine the course of one life. Or how do one rate what is important or not important enough to ask? In a way would not it become like an attachment and also putting the responsibility onto someone else to make the decision. Anyway it's interesting to read about the practice nonetheless.
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If a person wants to do a divination he or she must have a very strong faith and belief in the Protector Dorje Shugden. Once a divination is being made we must follow it all the way without any doubt otherwise it is pointless .
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Even if Nirvana does not exist and we are all cheated by the Buddha, don't we all feel satisfied and happy by bringing happiness to others?
Nirvana is just a kind of happiness, an undecaying happiness, which, just like any other happiness, mundane or supramundane, is nothing but the happy result of bringing happiness to others.
And why is this happiness undecaying? Because it is the direct, non-conceptual realization of emptiness, which is uncompounded, not dependent on causes and parts, and thus undecaying itself.
Still, a nirvana is dependent on the mere designation ”nirvana”, and therefore empty of inherent existence, which is another source of happiness, peace, and relief for all sentient beings.
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I never really get the purpose of divination
It is not so difficult. Just open your favorite dictionary. The purpose of divination is to foresee future events.
Now, if foreseeing future events is not important to you, then, according to your own logic, nothing has a purpose anyway, because the fulfillment of a present purpose resides necessarily in the future, and has to be foreseen in order to be achieved.
having been brought up in what would be classified as a western culture.
Any culture, Western or not, is all about foreseeing the future. We are all driven by purposes, which are to be fulfilled in the future, and such fulfillment has to be foreseen in order to be achieved.
Physical sciences are all about foreseeing, or predicting events. If an event is not predictable, it is not reputed as scientifically explained.
However, overpowered by preconceptions, someone may say that this or that future event cannot be predicted. Actually, there is no scientific evidence showing that an event cannot be predicted. Even Heisenberg's uncertainty principle points to a limitation of physical measuring instruments in relation to quantum objects, not to a limitation of knowledge in general, or of mind to that effect.
On the other hand, since there is nothing which is not dependent on mind, it follows that there is nothing outside the scope of knowledge, which means that there is no future event which cannot be predicted.
Therefore, it is just natural that many cultures have developed divination methods, which may be more or less accurate. However, there is no scientific basis to outrightly reject them.
Specially, as far as ”Western” or European and Mediterranean cultures are concerned, they have traditionally relied on divination. Egyptians relied on the oracle of Amun at the Siwa Oasis. The Greeks relied on the oracles and seers, and specially on their sibyls such as the Delphic, Cumaean, and many others. The Etruscans and Romans had their augurs and auspices. The Celtic peoples of Western Europe relied on their Senae for prophecies, healing, and weather making. Nordic people also relied on divination, which might be or not related to the runes. And the list goes on endlessly.
But maybe what you refer as the ”Western culture” you have been brought up in is actually the Jewish-Christian psychotic culture which, just like the no less psychotic Islamic culture, strictly forbids any kind of divinations, oracles, fortune-telling, astrology, omens, and so forth.
Indeed, the book of Leviticus (19:26), referring to oracles and astrology, explicitly commands that ”You shall not act on the basis of omens or lucky hours”. Christianity from early times considered divination a ”pagan” practice, and forbade it under capital punishment, which was extensively applied in so many witch hunts, the canonical laws forbidding divination continuing to this day. To Islam divination is ”Haram”, which means absolutely sinful and forbidden.
This Abrahamic (Jewish, Christian, and Muslim) proscription of divination is a necessary result of their belief in an omnipotent god, and their rejection of karma. One's future, they believe, is not dependent on one's actions, but only and strictly on their omnipotent god's will.
Therefore, looks like your ”Western culture” has nothing at all of ”Western”, but is just the usual Abrahamic (Jewish, Christian, and then Muslim) deranged, fundamentalist monomania, which has been forced through violence and deceit on Western (and other) peoples for the last 2000 years.
I know divination is very popular in the Chinese culture.
Not only in Chinese culture, but everywhere it has not been suppressed by Abrahamic (Jewish, Christian and Muslim) fundamentalism. For instance, divination is an important feature of Tibetan culture (just read Milarepa's life), of Mongolian culture with the anklebone divination (shagai), and virtually of every single other shamanic culture in Asia, of many African cultures such as the Yoruba of West Africa and the Serer of Senegal, and was a fundamental aspect of Aztec, Maya, Olmec, and every other civilization of Ancient Mexico and Central America, including the use of entheogenic substances such as the peyotl, until, of course, the wholesale destruction of such cultures by Jewish-Christian barbarians (and Muslim barbarians in Africa and Asia as well).
Anyhow I find it strange to have a practice that people would consult divination and let the result of divination erect the course of their life.
This is because you have been possessed by the fundamentalistic virus of Abrahamic ideologies, which rejects the dependent arising of actions and experiences; otherwise you would find just natural that one erects the course of one's life on the basis of foreseeing the results of one's actions, or on dependent arising, which is what divination is all about.
However, to the Abrahamically brainwashed person, only the irrational will of their omnipotent ”god” counts, and therefore they do not care about acting in accordance with dependent arising, or about taking into consideration the results of their actions, but only about showing absolute submission and subservience to the cruel, gruesome, chimeric creature invented by their own scriptures, which they call ”God”.
I guess the reason I feel it strange is that where do one stop asking then if one start to rely on the results of divination to determine the course of one life.
Why should one stop asking about the results of one's actions in the first place? The only reason why one should foolishly dismiss such essential knowledge is a fanatical, superstitious belief in an omnipotent god, coupled with the resultant rejection of the dependent arising of actions and their results.
Therefore, until one becomes a buddha, and is thus able to directly see all phenomena of the past present, and future, one should constantly rely on dependent arising, and therefore on divination, in order to understand the results of one's and others' each and every action.
Or how do one rate what is important or not important enough to ask?
Study the lamrim, for instance, and you will figure out very easily what is important or not to ask to a reliable oracle. For instance, which actions will ensure my own and others' happiness in this life and in all future lives; which actions will ensure the freedom from samsara for myself and others; and which actions will ensure full enlightenment for myself and others.
In a way would not it become like an attachment and also putting the responsibility onto someone else to make the decision.
Since divination, and reliance on it, implies recognition of the dependent arising of actions and their results, and thus that one's experiences are the infallible result of one's own actions, there is no way that it could cause one could put the responsibility for one's decisions onto someone else; rather the opposite, it will only enhance one's understanding of dependent arising, and one's sense of responsibility.
On the other hand, reliance on an omnipotent god which is the sole cause of everything, even therefore of evil and of one's own evil choices, is the sure way to abandon responsibility for one's own actions, which is precisely what we see in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, where the most horrendous actions, such as those perpetrated by their ”prophets”, are justified as the fulfillment of ”God's” commands, thus putting the responsibility for their crimes onto such an imaginary ”God”.
And again, denying divination on materialistic grounds implies also rejection of the dependent arising of actions and their effects, whereby one will only blame others for one's own faults.
Anyway it's interesting to read about the practice nonetheless.
Yes, and then the next step is to make an effort to understand dependent arising, and the impossibility of an omnipotent god, and then to assume full responsibility for one's own actions, thus rejecting the sinister shadow of the Abrahamic maniac monotheism, which for more than 2000 years has distorted, corrupted, and vandalized Western culture and other cultures.
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If anyone practices Dorje Shugden then its only logical that if a divination is to be done then it should be by Dorje Shugden divination methods.
Once a divination has been requested it must be followed through all the way and to trust totally on the Protector no matter what.
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Who on god's green earth has time for this? ??? It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.
Someone who is truly committed and willing to devote their lives to benefiting others with Dorje Shugden's practice? I imagine it would be someone who doesn't let laziness and the fear of 'giving up' their current lifestyle affect their resolve to do his practice.
I think to do this takes commitment and focus. It has to be for a higher reason like to gain enlightenment or something. I believe that giving up worldly commitments and attachments is one way.
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Thank you for sharing such an informative account on the Divination. Desperation will lead us to seek whatever methods we can get, without checking the background and the consequences. I am so grateful that I do not have to resort to this , as I know how blessed and beneficial to have a GURU, that is highly Enlightened, his purpose is to help us alleviate our own sufferings. Have trust in the GURU all the way as he is the only ONE can lead us to ENLIGHTEMENT.
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Interesting discussion on Divination. But, with all the required retreats, empowerment and fire pujas required, wouldn't it be a requirement too that whosoever wishes to be able to do divination be guided by a qualified person i.e. a highly attained lama? Isn't that what Tibetan Buddhism all about - reliance on the Guru? Is one even allowed to practice all that without the permission of one's Guru?
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Wow ! It was a really comprehensive coverage of Divination in this posting. Thank you to all that have contributed to it. I learned a lot from all the comments. For me personally I would only resort to divination of an enlightened being like Dorje Shugden or another enlightened being if I am at the crossroad of severe loss where I have no other options. Many resort to fortune telling or horoscopes etc for almost every aspect of their lives just because they want the easy way out of not having to think or be responsible for their decisions and actions. Or they are very superstitious of most matters in their lives.
Divinations by Enlightened beings are very sacred instructions which MUST be taken to heart fully . One should not request for a divination unless they are prepared to fulfill all the requirements. When that's done one can change the course of your karma for good. Hence divinations by enlightened beings are indeed very powerful.
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very well explanation on the step and procedure for doing retreat before we able to engage in DS divination. i believe with since and right motivation, those who wanted to learn the divination will do it properly as per what TK has written, and the end result from the retreat will not only be the successful and clear divination result, but the mind transformation from the retreat what the person reaps most benefit from.
Thank You TK for the well detailed expalantion. Tashi Delek
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I think the suitable candidate must be someone who has a lot of concern about others and very committed to his work and has very strong guru devotion , I think the strong guru devotion is important because all our attainment come from our guru without the guru there will be no Dharma .
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It so amazing to know about Dorje Shugden divination still exiting in this modern world now. It open up my mind to see how the holy being can help us through his divination giving advice to the monks when we need help. Even the method to do the divination must do such retreat only can achieving the result. Guru devotion to the Lama and deity it self is the key point. Thank above post of sharing, it got me so much knowledge and information. ;D
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Very interesting forum topic on Divination, the debate on Divination and Lam Rim, the course of motivation when one seeks for divination, the purpose of divination and what to do after one receives their divination instructions.
I personally wouldn't want to ask my Lama for a divination for anything related to my worldly matters such as business, finance, relationship or some obstacle in life which I can't get over. Like beggar says it puts the Lama down to a mere fortune teller and that's not the point of what a divination is for. The reason for anyone to seek divination should be for the motivation for ones improvement and advice on their spiritual journey to enlightenment. Even still for that we wouldn't require a divination but a direct instruction from our Lama itself. We mustn't degrade our lama for a divination for any small problems when those problems were created by ourselves.
Although a Lama already has the clairvoyance to see the result and any instruction given to you by him/her should be the result of the divination itself and followed through accurately with faith and discipline because that would keep your samaya with your Guru intact. I learnt a lot from this forum topic and the importance of having to follow your Gurus instructions to completely because if you do not follow the instructions and your samaya is broken with your Guru your divination results would never be accurate and always different.
Although I haven't completely read and understood the Lam Rim (If I did I would be enlightened), even if it has not mentioned anything about divination does not mean it is not real and accurate. Someone mentioned the Buddha thought 84,000 teachings and there are 108 Buddhist 'Bibles' - texts from the teachings of Buddha himself, doesn't mean divination from Dorje Shugden is not real. One's lineage and practice may not be the same as another but that doesn't make yours better than theirs, but merely more suitable for your level of mind stream and what makes you more comfortable.
Some people (I will not mention) on this forum has put down other people's lineage/beliefs on divination I feel is wrong, it is an open topic yes and criticism is allowed but in a respectful and constructive manner, not out rightly putting others down because you think your way of practicing is better.
I admire and praise TK for having gone through the whole process before becoming qualified to give DS divination and I completely agree that it is just a side benefit of being able to do that. Thank you for sharing the detailed process of Divination.
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Thank you for the sharing. I simply believe that a great dharma centre do need more people know how to go about this Divination in order to benefit others. However this is just not so simple as people are required to give away their worldly life and learn this. I learned something from the discussion here that the pure motivation of benefit others is important to learn the divination. Most important is that one should not simply request for the divination unless one prepared to fulfil all the requirements. How far we can go with our spiritual journey simply depend on how much time we spend to learn up and practice the dharma.
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I always thought that it was the Lama that would decide if a student was ready for any special practices such as divination, or to be a medium (oracle) for the Protector.
Is it the other way around, the student would make requests, and if so, what student wouldn't want all the special powers? ego both ways, scared to ask, and bold to ask.
How does it work present day around the world?
anyone know?
I personally think that everything have to be 2 ways , if a student is not ready, a guru will not simply give the training because if the student do not follow what the guru teaches and go all the way it will definitely create negative karma for the student. In another hand, a student must be ready to receive the teaching, for instance, prepare oneself with all preliminary practices and most importantly set a positive motivation, etc,. Benefit all sentient beings.
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Thank you for TK sharing on the DS divination. It's really detailed and informative. I would say if really someone wants to do it, no matter how tough is the retreat or practice, he/ she will go all the way to it.