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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: negra orquida on May 20, 2012, 03:38:14 PM
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When i was in highschool we were shown this video of how the Chinese authorities enforced the "one child policy" on the people. Compared to rural folk, there is not much compliance problems with the city folk. The video showed how the authorities literally hunted down this farmer woman who was 7 months pregnant with her 2nd child, and the next scene showed her in the hospital post-abortion. The commentary was that the authorities counselled the woman and convinced her to have an abortion.
On one hand I'm sure the mother did not want to kill the baby, or she would not have kept it until 7 months. She probably knew full well the consequences of having another child after the 1st child, but accidents do happen! Anyways I can't remember if she had planned for the 2nd baby or not.
On another hand the reason for the authorities' rather extreme stance was meant for the greater good of all countrymen, which is to prevent the problems caused by over population.
Abortion is killing, no doubt about that. I'm just wondering what is the "karma score" here for Authorities vs Woman? What would you have done if you were in the woman's position?
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Women in this position, in China, have little room for choice.
That limited choice is also karma.
Abortion is killing.
Karma of killing is short life, abrupt end of life, being killed, or also having loved ones killed/short lived/or experiencing an abrupt-life-end.
So what could possibly be the collective karma for a society that implement abortion at a large scale?
If not the same results for the society and at a large scale?
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Women in this position, in China, have little room for choice.
That limited choice is also karma.
Abortion is killing.
Karma of killing is short life, abrupt end of life, being killed, or also having loved ones killed/short lived/or experiencing an abrupt-life-end.
So what could possibly be the collective karma for a society that implement abortion at a large scale?
If not the same results for the society and at a large scale?
Dear HR, I disagree to a point... it is true that women in these positions do not have the choice of keeping the child... however, they did have the choice to have a baby. Surely they should have thought about that before having an "accident" and thus create the causes for such a scenario to happen.
Am not saying the Chinese Government is right in enforcing their policy, i am merely pointing our that there are repercussions to our actions and we cannot push the blame onto another.
And then there is of course the collective karma as you mentioned which given the severity and multitude would be hard to sweep under the carpet. Perhaps the karma is slowly coming back as there are not many eligible women left to marry as men outnumber the women in China by quite a ratio. Hence the opposite effect of a baby boom will happen and given the size and rate China is expanding, there might be some serious repercussions in the future!
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This is really an age old question but there is really no real solution until now.
Do you like what you see in India? There is no strict population control, thus th poverty is so prevalent, the poorest have the most mouths to feed, and the vicious cycle continues...
I think scientist really have to come out with a contrceptive method that is 100% effective, yet reversible, I think that's the only solution to the dilemma of abortion and over-population.
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This is really an age old question but there is really no real solution until now.
Do you like what you see in India? There is no strict population control, thus th poverty is so prevalent, the poorest have the most mouths to feed, and the vicious cycle continues...
I think scientist really have to come out with a contrceptive method that is 100% effective, yet reversible, I think that's the only solution to the dilemma of abortion and over-population.
Perhaps... but you know what, we are once again trying to find the cure for the symptom where we should really find the cure of the root problem. That I find is simply education... not purely education on safe sex but on wholesome and basic core human values which is almost non existent in this degenerate age.
If we all viewed the sexual union of male and female as a natural means of pro-creation rather than pleasure pro-sports, perhaps then the problem of over population in the world would cease! But then again that is merely my optimistic view on human kind. What happened to us? Are we not the most intelligent and in the most opportune condition? Sometimes I seriously doubt if we even know our full potential... I guess as with potentiality, it could well go either way...
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The woman concerned already experienced the result of her action :
She and her husband know the consequences of pregnancy in addition to the quota allowed for each couple. Yet, they decided to take a risk and this is the play of the law of karma in the worldly sense - under the law ,the woman had to abort the fetus . I understand and sympathize the physical and emotional traumas the poor woman went through but similarly karma in spiritual context is also without any bargain or leniency.
Understanding the man made law and law of karma, taking heed of the consequences of non compliance with these laws will save us from unnecessary pains and sufferings. In this sense, the operation of samsara and spiritual laws have no difference.
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Limited choice or not, the 'karma score' is the same. After all, it is because of karma that she is in that position in the first place (I know this sounds mean but... truth). And so, just like everything in samsara... it comes back around, most of the time worst as we are propelled to make horrible decisions due to the condition we are in.
Just by ending that baby's life... so many people are involved in such an unfortunate event... the mother, the police that chased her and forced her to abort, the doctors that did the procedure, the nurses, the father as he did not stop it... it is endless...
If it was me? well... not that i want to sound cocky, but such a situation would not happen to me (or so i think... karma is unpredictable isnt it?)
I believe strongly in prevention rather than cure and I do not believe in producing babies since there's so many homeless children which I can adopt to give them a better life... if she and her husband took measures to prevent the pregnancy, then such an unfortunate event would not take place.
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I remember that there are officially more males then females in China. This is attributed to unregistered female births or infanticide of female babies. The reasons are the one-child policy and the traditional Chinese "value" of having a male line to carry the family name.
While I can understand the overall reasons of population control and quality of life, I certainly abhor abortion unless the life of the mother is threatened.
The karma score for the authorities vs woman? Since the woman is the mother, I doubt she will rejoice the abortion. Hence the four factor are not complete for her. The authorities, in particular the officials who persuaded her and the medical staff who did the abortion may have the 4 factors completed. Hence, the authorities have the heavier karma.
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China having a one child policy is not going to help the country in the long run. Most Chinese prefer to have sons to carry on their family name so that they can pass their inheritance or business to the male heir thus the problem of infanticide of female babies arises. Baby girls are killed so what will happen in the future? There will be more males than females or no females in China and those males who want to marry need to find females from other countries.
The "karma score" here for Authorities vs Woman? In the first place, she and her husband should take precaution to prevent any accidents. As the saying goes, "prevention is better than cure". However, as it was too late and it already happened, it is so sad that she had to go for an abortion. It must be very disheartening for her especially when she is 7 months pregnant. I think that the karma for the authorities is much heavier than the woman as I don't think the woman rejoice in the action of killing.
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It has been long known that China has enforced the one child policy and i do know that there were a lot of Chinese families who have more than one child. I condemn the abortion/killing of the fetus by the authorities simply because the child has the right to live if it is already a reality that a fetus has been conceived. it is a life being. Whatever punishment can be enforced onto the responsible parents but never to the innocent fetus! i totally disagree the abortion in such manner. it is an inhumane action for me and it does not do the country good as such actions will tarnish the image of the country to the eyes of the world.
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Female infanticide has existed in China for a long time, and although the One Child per Family policy has added to the problem, it didn't cause it.
The One Child Policy was introduced by the Chinese Government in 1979 with the intention of keeping the population within sustainable limits even in the face of natural disasters and poor harvests, and improving the quality of life for the Chinese population as a whole.
Under the policy, parents who have more than one child may have their wages reduced and be denied some social services.
Despite the egalitarian nature of Chinese society, many parents believe that having a son is a vital element of providing for their old age. Therefore in extreme cases, a baby is killed if it is not of the preferred sex, because of the pressure not to have more than one child.
But ethically speaking, such actions are demonic as we are killing lives of lost souls. The karma accumulated for such actions are as equal to killing a living, breathing human baby.
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To me, killing is killing no matter how it is explained. The pregnant lady knowing very well that if she is caught, they will bring her to the hospital and abort the child whether she wants it or not. Even if she got pregnant without knowing, it is still killing as she is the reason that the baby have to be killed. The karma will still be on her, the baby and the officials that were involved. Directly or indirectly.
http://www.buddhanet.net/fundbud9.htm (http://www.buddhanet.net/fundbud9.htm) (read more about it here)
Karma, be it wholesome or unwholesome, is modified by the conditions under which the actions are performed. In other words, a wholesome or unwholesome action may be more or less strong depending upon the conditions under which it is done. The conditions which determine the weight or strength of karma may be divided into those which refer to the subject - the doer of the action - and those which refer to the object - the being to whom the action is done. So the conditions that determine the weight of karma apply to the subject and object of the action. Specifically, if we take the example of killing, in order for the act of killing to have its complete and unmitigated power, five conditions must be present - a living being, the awareness of the existence of a living being, the intention to kill the living being, the effort or action of killing the living being, and the consequent death of the living being. Here too, we can see the subjective and the objective conditions. The subjective conditions are the awareness of the living being, the intention to kill and the action of killing. The objective conditions are the presence of the living being and the consequent death of the living being.
Similarly, there are five conditions that modify the weight of karma and they are persistent, repeated action; action done with great intention and determination; action done without regret; action done towards those who possess extraordinary qualities; and action done towards those who have benefited one in the past. Here too there are subjective and objective conditions. The subjective conditions are persistent action; action done with intention; and action done without regret. If one does an unwholesome action again and again with great intention and without regret, the weight of the action will be enhanced. The objective conditions are the quality of the object to whom actions are done and the nature of the relationship. In other words, if one does a wholesome or unwholesome action towards living beings who possess extraordinary qualities such as the arhats, or the Buddha, the wholesome or unwholesome action done will have greater weight. Finally the power of wholesome or unwholesome action done towards those who have benefited one in the past, such as one’s parents, teachers and friends, will be greater.
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Oh dear, we are really trampling on a sensitive issue... I used to think of abortion as Pro-choice, I guess too much influence of the American way of choice. However, understanding karma and also responsibility, I have to say that abortion is a choice as in prevention. I know that there are some religions which do not permit contraceptive, which is so archaic and total rubbish.
Humans have a brain which is a privilege. Thus, my take on this is, prevention is better than cure. As for China and its policy of one child per stomach of a woman, I feel that it is inhuman, yet when I look at India, I do not think that China is that unkind in its policy. It is still the choice of the people to abort to comply because of the old-fashined thinking of a boy being important. Again, it is down to choice. They can choose that a daughter is just as important.
Today, China suffers the ills of their policy. They have more men and women. Socially, great...women can have more choice. But on the flip side, the men are needing to marry abroad which can also accumulate future social issues. There is just no winning....Only Karma.
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Abortion is killing. Nothing can justify that action as good. I agree that China have to imposed 1 child policy to control birth rates to avoid over population as it is now it is very populated already and may have negative consequences when over populated. Any human have the intelligence to refrain from abortion by not getting pregnant. There are many ways to prevent pregnancies and it boils down to choice.
I totally agree with some of you here that it is a choice to get pregnant or not. Therefore abortion can be avoided and need not blame the policies of 1 child system as a population control measure. However the intentions of the policy maker to force abortion when a family has more than 1 child, that actions itself creates negative karma but the abortion can be avoided thus the the person who knew about the policy not only creates negative karma for themselves they also create a chain reaction of negative karma for whoever is involved in the abortion.
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No mother of any children will harm or even think of killing their very own fresh and blood. Similarly for this 7-month pregnant woman who was forced to abort her baby. The one-child policy makes life difficult for many parents who would want to have more than a single child. But to forcefully abort a child because the parents had exceeded their quota is truly inhuman. It is sadistic! No matter what birth control policy that a nation has, abortion should not be considered. To hunt down the woman and then ‘counseled’ her to abort her baby is very cruel. Rather than killing, the authorities could have implemented a better option e.g. a fine system to penalize the parents.
From the karmic point of view, China and its nationals collectively have to bear the consequences of adopting the one-child policy. We cannot imagine how many countless innocent unborn babies were aborted due to this policy. We simply cannot figure out the amount of heavy negative karma accumulated through these actions! Have karma ripened on these parents who could have aborted or killed many babies in their past lives? What karma had these babies reaped in their past lives to suffer the consequences of being aborted? The vicious cycle continues!
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By action, abortion is killing and of course its negative karma, just the matter of how heavy is depend on the 4 factors. So the father, mother, authorities, dortor and nurse are involve with these negative karma and by law of the karma, they have created a cause to be involved with this situation.
Each countries have laws and regulations to suit with their need in order to develope the country. i don't think it that easy for people to make dicision for this type of law to be used but perhap this is the best for that moment and i do hope that it might change in near future to suit wtih the different needed.
Its similary with the decapitate or electric shock to death for the prisoners in the jail which still using in some of countries, i don't think anyone enjoy doing it.
This is the way to prevent it : to do more good actions, hold vows and collect more merit, it will gurantee that we won't fall into anyone who involve with all this abortion, decaptiate or electric shock to death.
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Every country wills a certain rules or regulations to protect their country interest. For the Chinese to control the population growth is something that they have studied and considered. There is no wrong for the control but not the action!
Abortion is the same as killing. For one who committed killing will result in rebirth in hells, shortened life as a human being, separation from loved ones, fear and paranoia.
Encouragement towards prevention should be the way. Medically, instead of having the doctors to encourage abortion why not promote sterile for women or vasectomy for male. The government has to make it affordable and some other prevention method.
For couples, they have to take the same consideration too rather than looking for abortion. If spiritual instill in the country, karma being thought more people will realize. By encouraging spiritual learning will also help and is the best for humanity & moral development as a whole.
I’m glad I’m a Buddhist and believe in karma.
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Law of cause and effect still prevails on whichever sides. Be it the unfortunate woman and the authorities. Having said that, the woman has the choice. She knew the fact that the authorities allow only one child policy. Why then she wants to go ahead? She and her partner can take the necessary precautionary measures to avoid the unnecessary abortion and pain (heartaches).
Ok..chinese cultures and belief is to have a son in the family...so? Even now she's experiencing the karma to live in China with the one child policy. I feel sorry for her, with no offence or disrespect for the matter. For me whether it is a daughter or son, it does not matter now in these present time and age. Both are same, irrespective of the gender. Any where we go, work or live, there are rules and regulations and laws to follow whether in a country or organisation, even in families too. How else can we escape such rules or laws? These are means for one to follow so that it does not go out of hand and to suffer the consequences.
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Abortion,because it is seen as taking the life of a foetus,poses a serious moral,spiritual,and personal dilemma. Taking a life,applies to taking a life of a sentient being,a being with consciousness and hence the potential to achieve enlightenment.When making moral choices,individuals should examined their motivation -whether attachment,ignorance,wisdom or compassion-and to weigh the consequences of their actions.Individuals should analized issues carefully for themselves.I feel compelled to take a stand against abortion.
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The one-child policy was a country's desperate attempt to control population growth. Because of this policy China will soon be overtaken by India as the country with the largest population in the world. At the moment China is still at the top.
Abortion is practised due to this strict rule. The reason that abortion can be imposed is that most people in China are not religious and are not aware of the law of cause and effect. So does the country collect negative karma because of this policy? The fact is, it is enforcing the one-child policy, not abortion! Abortion is only resorted to when people don't comply with the policy. Unfortunately, there are many cases of infanticide and abortion as a result of such a policy. Who has the most negative karma, the people concerned or the country? This is a very difficult question to answer and I have no answers.
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The one-child policy was a country's desperate attempt to control population growth. Because of this policy China will soon be overtaken by India as the country with the largest population in the world. At the moment China is still at the top.
Abortion is practised due to this strict rule. The reason that abortion can be imposed is that most people in China are not religious and are not aware of the law of cause and effect. So does the country collect negative karma because of this policy? The fact is, it is enforcing the one-child policy, not abortion! Abortion is only resorted to when people don't comply with the policy. Unfortunately, there are many cases of infanticide and abortion as a result of such a policy. Who has the most negative karma, the people concerned or the country? This is a very difficult question to answer and I have no answers.
I do like what you said here about the enforcement of the one-child policy and NOT abortion. In a warped sense it kinda makes sense. The Chinese government does give couples a choice... stating that a one-child policy has to be adhered if not there are consequences.
The consequences of course are nothing to be desired. But having said that, such "punishment" is carried out for those who do not comply. So having been born into into a situation where one has to go through such hardships, why create more by not complying?
It is not easy whichever way one slides on this scale.. but if we believe in karma, we just need to wade it out... comply and not create more negative karma and return in less favourable positions...
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I strongly discourage abortions. Abortions are the taking of one's life which has not even happened yet. When I hear that people who call themselves Buddhist still go for abortions, it makes me lose faith in humanity. Even if the country does not allow you to have more than one child, then have a family plan. There is consciousness in the mind when the baby is just conceived, destruction of one's consciousness is murder, so abortions are murder. In general, it is not okay for an abortion even if it is for the country's good.
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I don't think abortion is right. I mean, it was YOUR choice to have pleasurable fun in the first place, and knowing very well the rules and regulations of the one child policy (or for the matter a fact, even if there's no policy), you end a life out of selfishness.Yes it might be true that it is indeed the karma of the parents, and the baby, i.e. the baby has no karma to even live, the parents build on more negative karma for taking a life away, but there was a choice before any action was done. If the consequences were thought about first, then maybe, they should've controlled their desires and a situation like this would not occur. I think karma wise, both parents and authorities would incur negative karma...maybe the parents more I feel.
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So does the country collect negative karma because of this policy? The fact is, it is enforcing the one-child policy, not abortion! Abortion is only resorted to when people don't comply with the policy. Unfortunately, there are many cases of infanticide and abortion as a result of such a policy. Who has the most negative karma, the people concerned or the country?
Great point Midakpa. It becomes clear that if the people had followed the government's instructions, there would be no need for the abortion of babies. The cause for infanticide and abortions is the people's own selfishness and lack of care for others / the whole country, and what is a country without people?
On the flip side, there are countries who have trouble maintaining their population count and encourage their people to make babies, e.g. Japan, Europe, Singapore... A shrinking but ageing population comes with a myriad of serious problems as well. In this case, making babies would benefit the country (at least that is what economists say). Interesting article here http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/population-paradox-europes-time-bomb-888030.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/population-paradox-europes-time-bomb-888030.html)
Does it make sense then to say that such countries' people would have "good karma" if they had kids for the sake of their country's future?
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Thank you for raising this point.. China's one-child policy had created serious social issues:
(1) population of man in China is far higher than woman (reason stated in 2 below)
(2) Baby girl killed/abandoned - given the limitation of one child per family, countless person (especially in the rural areas) would want a boy to pregnant and have a boy
(3) Child-birth is controlled by 'permit'. Permission to have children valid within a year of issuance date. If the couple fail to gave a child within the validity period of the permit, they have to apply for another permit.
(4) Each state, city, organization is given a limited number of permit each year, each organization has a office keeping a close watch of each women within their organization who is of child-bearing age.
(5) Many baby girls are being adopted by European and American families
Chinese women has only one thing to be aware of (with regards to child-birth) - they have to make sure they do not get pregnant without permit, otherwise, the baby is almost 100% be aborted or be born and raised deep in the inland of china, they would have no identity!
China's government's reason for imposing such one-child is to control the population in China, i do agree such measure has to be in place to prevent overly populated. However, they must not have imagine this seemingly simple policy would lead to serious social problems in and outside of China
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No matter what is the circumstance of pregnancy, the China women should NEVER abort or let the authority terminate their pregnancy. This is KILLING! If having more than one child means administrative nightmare for the 'extra' child, Chinese women should be extra careful not to get themselves pregnant after having a child. If such 'accidents' occur, they should hide away under the child is born (even though this is almost impossible).
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On the "spiritual" side, the spirit of the aborted baby will haunt the parents (especially the mother) and create obstacles in their daily lives. These spirits can be appeased through the best method which is the HYT fire puja to transcend them to higher rebirth through qualified Lamas. Such negative karma is very difficult to negate and the kind of trouble the spirits gives are very, very troublesome, depending on how vengeful the spirit is. If one has enough very good karma, it may act as shield to protect from these external harm temporary until the exhaust of good merit. That is why few may not experience the misfortune yet.
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What i get from this is that killing will never be congratulated for having the motivation of country's benefit. What i will do would be to make the parents in China pay more if they are to have more child rather than abortion. At the very least you don't have to kill and the parents make up for the liability that caused the country of this.
Excuse me of my limited knowledge in the economy or fundamental situations in China but at least the government should do something about it rather than just making people kill their own child. I am sure there are a lot more avenues for them to approach this problem.
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Abortion cannot be good whether for the country or for the parents. How can it be? It's a case of taking a life. In order to enforce the 1-child per family policy, they could have insisted on the mother having her tubal ligation after the first delivery or get the dad to go for vasectomy.
Like the saying goes .... Prevention is better than cure. Then no need to suffer the karma.
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Every country wills a certain rules or regulations to protect their country interest. For the Chinese to control the population growth is something that they have studied and considered. There is no wrong for the control but not the action!
Abortion is the same as killing. For one who committed killing will result in rebirth in hells, shortened life as a human being, separation from loved ones, fear and paranoia.
Encouragement towards prevention should be the way. Medically, instead of having the doctors to encourage abortion why not promote sterile for women or vasectomy for male. The government has to make it affordable and some other prevention method.
For couples, they have to take the same consideration too rather than looking for abortion. If spiritual instill in the country, karma being thought more people will realize. By encouraging spiritual learning will also help and is the best for humanity & moral development as a whole.
I’m glad I’m a Buddhist and believe in karma.
I agree with Tenzin K. Killing is karmically very bad no matter how we try to justify. All these problems arise from our desire for sex. Desire is the root problem. However, it will take more time for us to control our desires. Promoting the study and practice of Buddhism will help address this issue in the long run. Invoking Dorje Shugden's assistance to stablise the mind is crucial to expedite this process of letting go of our desires.
Since this will take time, the next best thing for China, is to have preventive measures such as a vasectomy or tubal ligation. There are still chances of the women getting pregnant after these procedures but the chances are very slim.
My message to China is to promote Buddhism especially Dorje Shugden's practice to educate the Chinese on the consequences of one's attachment to desires as a long term project for their 1 child policy!
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Definitely think the Chinese Govt should give better support in preventative methods rather then encouraging n perhaps even forcing parents to take this act of killing. Very heavy negative karmic repercussion as a whole - whole country! The Chinese people sure needs Dharma and Dorje Shugden there.
I can on one hand understand their dilemma and imposing the one child policy but to encourage abortion is totally wrong since there are so many options as stated by so many here. Get those tubes tied already. Education is also good to break the concept in the Chinese mind set of having boys. I think most of them want to keep trying because if the 1st one was a girl... it is not good... hence they will keep on trying until the get a son...which i think is already wrong to begin with. This is d typical Chinese thinking which need re-educating.