dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: thaimonk on August 21, 2012, 10:51:52 AM
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Do you see prejudiced and biased views allowed or not allowed on this site in regards to Wisdom Buddha Shugden?
http://www.dharmawheel.net/index.php (http://www.dharmawheel.net/index.php)
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They are against Dorje Shugden. As much as I hate to admit, when esangha came down as a result of the cumulative negative karma they created not only by criticizing Dorje Shugden but any other lama or tradition that does not conform to their view, dharmawheel was started and the bulk of the people from that form went to dharmawheel. Therefore, we can see many familiar faces that we have seen in esangha in dharmawheel. The unfortunate part is that dharmawheel has a very strict non Dorje Shugden policy and to top it off, they have an extremely tiny gelug section while the dzogchen section is huge. No matter how one sees it, it can be safe to say that this forum leans greatly towards the nyingmas and perhaps to protect their sentiments, pay less attention to gelug and suppressed talk about Dorje Shugden. I personally found that unnecessary because Dorje Shugden is a gelug afair, even if the other lineages might want to believe otherwise and start getting paranoid. If they are not gelug, they have no business in the gelug section in the first place, so why do they need to go in and get involved?
esangha's dark descent to its destruction started with them banning all talk of Dorje Shugden from their forums and declaring them as a cult back then. Then it included NKT in the banning list. Several mods used the issue to gain power over the minds of the people there with their technical knowledge and did dirty tricks like leaving an 'authoritative' statement on Dorje Shugden on a thread, and the locking it so that nobody can rebut them because they know that their points are just a smokescreen. From there, they gained the courage to criticize other lamas, starting with Geshe Michael Roach, and it expanded to other lamas, and eventually other lineages that does not agree with the mod's point of view, who has now became the king of the forum. With esangha gone, he is now just a regular poster on dharmawheel. His sidekick got into intense financial problems and has disappeared from the internet altogether. He begged for help on dharmawheel and stopped visiting there altogether eventually. So you see, esangha's ruin started with the banning of the talk of Dorje Shugden, and it seems that dharmawheel is following the same path. Lets hope dharmawheel realizes and does the right thing before that happens.
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I quit esangha long before it bit the dust. The first time I heard one of the moderators slander Kyabje Pabongkha I quit visiting the site.
Moderators are supposed to be unbiased and impartial, regardless of their personal views. Esangha was used as a platform for a few of the moderators to spew their sectarian agendas.
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I quit esangha long before it bit the dust. The first time I heard one of the moderators slander Kyabje Pabongkha I quit visiting the site.
Moderators are supposed to be unbiased and impartial, regardless of their personal views. Esangha was used as a platform for a few of the moderators to spew their sectarian agendas.
yes I remember that part! One of the moderators made extremely nasty comments about Pabongkha, Trijang and Zong Rinpoche in one post and then left it there, IN THE GELUG SECTION. NOBODY CHALLENGED THIS POST FOR A WHOLE YEAR. The most ridiculous thing about this was that the post was not even posted by a Gelug practitioner, it was posted by a Nyingma practitioner who obviously was obviously delusional in his Dharma practice as I remember someone asked the same poster what are the results of Dharma practice, he said he had to wait for signs to appear. He was talking about things in a tantric context in a general forum, which means that he broke his samaya to not discuss about tantra in public. In the general context, results and progress of Dharma practice can be seen by how the mind calms down and is less angry and how people around us in general feel better around us. He failed the acid test, and after that thread, it was very clear to everyone that he had issues to deal with.
It was the overall culture there in esangha that caused a lot of misunderstandings in Buddhism and caused a lot of people to have misunderstandings in Dharma. They encouraged blind faith, where the certain moderator is always right and anyone who opposed him is wrong. I remember that someone asked about where can they find a Lama that can do Phowa for them when they have died, someone else posted that instead of worrying about death, they could have put in effort to practice Dharma instead. Someone else posted about another Lama that can perform Phowa and that person thanked them. He completely ignored the 'harder' advice of actually practicing the Dharma. Is this Buddhist? Well, this is the kind of degeneration that is courtesy of esangha.
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Dharmawheel no doubt harbours alot of negativity. You are not allowed to discuss certain things unless you make it expressly critical the mods like to Ignore their own Terms of service most of the time it is maybe better if instead of engaging to observe, Ive already indulge in to much negativity since being on there and the problem with being in an atmosphere as such it rubs of on your postings and destroys the purposes of engaging in a Dharma forum and instead turns it into a place to accumulate negative karma. Time to cease I think, Whats the point of engaging there when there are other groups around specifically for your sects practice of Dharma where you can disscuss and understand the finer points as you would in a proper Sangha without resorting to disagreements over differences of practice or sectarian opinion ( which are deeply rooted no matter how non sectarian one claims to be ) :'(
E-Sangha mrk 2 lets see how long it can last.
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Dharmawheel no doubt harbours alot of negativity. You are not allowed to discuss certain things unless you make it expressly critical the mods like to Ignore their own Terms of service most of the time it is maybe better if instead of engaging to observe, Ive already indulge in to much negativity since being on there and the problem with being in an atmosphere as such it rubs of on your postings and destroys the purposes of engaging in a Dharma forum and instead turns it into a place to accumulate negative karma. Time to cease I think, Whats the point of engaging there when there are other groups around specifically for your sects practice of Dharma where you can disscuss and understand the finer points as you would in a proper Sangha without resorting to disagreements over differences of practice or sectarian opinion ( which are deeply rooted no matter how non sectarian one claims to be ) :'(
Freesangha in comparison is doing much better than Dharmawheel. They do allow talk about Dorje Shugden but it is in a section where newbies and unrelated people cannot access. That is a safer and smarter way on dealing with the issue, if you would want to ask me instead of a blanket ban. If Buddhism is all about removing ignorance, why would you perform acts to increase it? Very, very contradictory to the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha encouraged the resolution of doubts via discussions, not via shutting them off. Dharmawheel might be "big", but a huge amount of the posts there are in the Dzogchen section and not anywhere else. This should tell us what that forum really is for.
E-Sangha mrk 2 lets see how long it can last.
If they take the path of esangha, not long.
The forum has strict rules on talking negatively about other lamas, but preventing people from talking about Dorje Shugden opens the way for criticism against lamas that do not subscribe to their view. Dharmawheel is trying to learn from esangha's implosion, but sadly they are repeating the exact same moves as they are. The overlord of esangha, namdrol is allowed to post there and he made more than 5000 posts to date...but not allowed to be a moderator yet the negative energies from his postings are all over the place....the forums will degenerate unless they lift the gag order.
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This Namdrol character once said something like 'It is only a matter of time before Western Dharma students realize how flawed Je Tsongkhapa's presentation of emptiness is'. Wish I had the exact quote but it is long gone I am afraid.
How arrogant that he places his own wisdom above such an acclaimed Master as Je Tsonkhapa.
This is the same guy who blamed Mad Cow Disease on the proliferation of Dorje Shugden practice in England!
:o
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This Namdrol character once said something like 'It is only a matter of time before Western Dharma students realize how flawed Je Tsongkhapa's presentation of emptiness is'. Wish I had the exact quote but it is long gone I am afraid.
How arrogant that he places his own wisdom above such an acclaimed Master as Je Tsonkhapa.
This is the same guy who blamed Mad Cow Disease on the proliferation of Dorje Shugden practice in England!
:o
It is very clear that this person is anti Gelug, and he has misled many people off the path. There is also something very off about his personality and it was as if he has some sort of borderline personality disorder to the point where he was very insecure about what he believed in and he would counter that by imposing his beliefs on others. He was the same guy who stirred the Dorje Shugden issue out of proportion and when he realized that he could never win in a debate about Dorje Shugden, he simply locked the thread and prevented people from replying or countering his 'statements'. When he realized that he could get away with it as at that time no other mods were as knowledgable as him, he convinced esangha to ban NKT people and talk of Dorje Shugden. When that worked, he proceeded to criticize other masters that did not subscribe to his view and that grew into traditions that did not subscribe to his view. he banned monks from other traditions from the forum even! Wow! A layperson overriding the sangha. It all begun from the banning of Dorje Shugden. And Dharmawheel is repeating that exact same mistake.
I do remember him saying something like this, and it was quite shocking because he said it in the Gelug forum. His blatant sectarianism was surprisingly tolerated in esangha. Although he has stuck strictly to answering technical questions in Dharmawheel, keeping him there is a huge mistake as his negative energies and imprints will seep into that forum and rot it from the core. He does have scriptural basis on this figure called gorampa who was critical of Tsongkhapa's teachings, and wrote rebuttals to his works, however gorampa was not famous but non gelugs see him as a great teacher. He lived during Tsongkhapa's time but did not engage in debates with Tsongkhapa but snipe at Tsongkhapa with his treatises. Good scholar? hmmmm. I doubt it.
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Namdrol ( Malcom Smith ) Is no doubt very knowledgeable but like most TB Buddhists is very bias when it comes to certain issues which is no surprise seeing as it comes down from the masters.
Its not strange why the Gelug forum doesn't have alot of activity considering the dislike of Je Tsongkhapa in general by other Buddhist sects his teachings of Prasangika POV and non inclusion of Dzogchen in his formation, Why even one of the monks there has spoken and said how the supposed Gelug monastery's are these days when it comes to teaching apparently Sera's main Yidam is Hayagriva which comes from the Nyingma. So it is no doubt that this non sectarianism buisness extends only so far as wiping out Je Tsongkhapa's presentation and view to be replaced with Sutrantika and a mixture of other lineages practices.
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Namdrol ( Malcom Smith ) Is no doubt very knowledgeable but like most TB Buddhists is very bias when it comes to certain issues which is no surprise seeing as it comes down from the masters.
Its not strange why the Gelug forum doesn't have alot of activity considering the dislike of Je Tsongkhapa in general by other Buddhist sects his teachings of Prasangika POV and non inclusion of Dzogchen in his formation, Why even one of the monks there has spoken and said how the supposed Gelug monastery's are these days when it comes to teaching apparently Sera's main Yidam is Hayagriva which comes from the Nyingma. So it is no doubt that this non sectarianism buisness extends only so far as wiping out Je Tsongkhapa's presentation and view to be replaced with Sutrantika and a mixture of other lineages practices.
If HHDL would like to talk about uniting all of tibet and the Buddhist sects together, he should really start with the question: what is your problem with Tsongkhapa? I have noticed that many western buddhists who are non gelug tend to make negative comments against Tsongkhapa. Tibetans that I have met does respect Tsongkhapa as a great saint...so why is there a disparity that developed? Was it that the teachers of these western students taught them to disparage Lama Tsongkhapa in private or is it that these western students thought that Gelug is too mainstream and therefore rebelling against it would do good? Or that, the Gelugs were the oppressors of the other traditions so they are evil? I dont know, but either way, blatant sectarianism is blatant sectarianism and to deny that it is would really be a sad thing, would it not be? Why does nobody work on that but deny, cover and defend endlessly?
the Rime that was started in the 18th century and the rime now are two entirely different things. Rime back then was about a symbiosis of traditions who were not Gelug to make sure that their teachings would be preserved. It was a trading of lineages to make sure that none of them would die off. Its main intentions was to preserve the teachings irregardless of tradition. These days, it's just an excuse for an unstable practitioner to hop from tradition to tradition whenever things get tough for them, and when people tell then to stick to one tradition, they say that the idea is very sectarian. They think that the more Gurus and initiations one can procure, the better when in fact, they are supposed to master what they have first before moving on. That's what Rime is these days: an excuse for being unstable.
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Namdrol ( Malcom Smith ) Is no doubt very knowledgeable but like most TB Buddhists is very bias when it comes to certain issues which is no surprise seeing as it comes down from the masters.
Its not strange why the Gelug forum doesn't have alot of activity considering the dislike of Je Tsongkhapa in general by other Buddhist sects his teachings of Prasangika POV and non inclusion of Dzogchen in his formation, Why even one of the monks there has spoken and said how the supposed Gelug monastery's are these days when it comes to teaching apparently Sera's main Yidam is Hayagriva which comes from the Nyingma. So it is no doubt that this non sectarianism buisness extends only so far as wiping out Je Tsongkhapa's presentation and view to be replaced with Sutrantika and a mixture of other lineages practices.
the Rime that was started in the 18th century and the rime now are two entirely different things. Rime back then was about a symbiosis of traditions who were not Gelug to make sure that their teachings would be preserved. It was a trading of lineages to make sure that none of them would die off. Its main intentions was to preserve the teachings irregardless of tradition. These days, it's just an excuse for an unstable practitioner to hop from tradition to tradition whenever things get tough for them, and when people tell then to stick to one tradition, they say that the idea is very sectarian. They think that the more Gurus and initiations one can procure, the better when in fact, they are supposed to master what they have first before moving on. That's what Rime is these days: an excuse for being unstable.
An excuse for being unstable indeed. I know a few like that who tradition hop before mastering even the basic much like calming the mind and training in Lamrim to stabilise their attitude in general.
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An excuse for being unstable indeed. I know a few like that who tradition hop before mastering even the basic much like calming the mind and training in Lamrim to stabilise their attitude in general.
And oh, get this, a nyingma mod that was in esangha commented that my Guru was very possessive when I told him that my Guru advocated us to only take up one teacher and one lineage unless we have learnt and mastered all that we can with our current teacher because it makes sense. The same nyingma mod is also still a mod in dharmawheel.
I really dont know why is it that they seem to think that the more teachers you have, the merrier, and also that if a teacher does things you dont like or dont feel comfortable with, esangha actually encouraged people to leave their teachers. i was like..wow when i read about it. Shouldnt people recount the story of Milarepa during this time? Should these people not tell this person not to give up? it was in the context of that this person suffered from depression, and the Guru said things to provoke the depression. This person saw that act as harmful and everyone else chimed in. What if the Guru's actions is to actually help remove this person's depression, and by discouraging this person from going to his Guru, this person will have to suffer from his depression for a longer and more intense period in the future?
This is the degeneration of Dharma, ladies and gentlemen.
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This is a forum is managed by people who are more European/US centric and it is a shame that though the West represents free speech and freedom of choice will do something so small to restrict discussions about Dorje Shugden or organisations that are actively promoting Dorje Shugden. Thats how I know this ban is wrong it makes people have the fear to all free speech to prevail on the internet.
If people are so sure people who practice Dorje Shugden are part of cults or demon worshippers, then all the more the moderators of this forum should allow freedom to debate and discuss this issue for the benefit of all. Don't they feel compassion for the people who are supposedly 'deluded'.
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This is a forum is managed by people who are more European/US centric and it is a shame that though the West represents free speech and freedom of choice will do something so small to restrict discussions about Dorje Shugden or organisations that are actively promoting Dorje Shugden. Thats how I know this ban is wrong it makes people have the fear to all free speech to prevail on the internet.
If people are so sure people who practice Dorje Shugden are part of cults or demon worshippers, then all the more the moderators of this forum should allow freedom to debate and discuss this issue for the benefit of all. Don't they feel compassion for the people who are supposedly 'deluded'.
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This is a forum is managed by people who are more European/US centric and it is a shame that though the West represents free speech and freedom of choice will do something so small to restrict discussions about Dorje Shugden or organisations that are actively promoting Dorje Shugden. Thats how I know this ban is wrong it makes people have the fear to all free speech to prevail on the internet.
If people are so sure people who practice Dorje Shugden are part of cults or demon worshippers, then all the more the moderators of this forum should allow freedom to debate and discuss this issue for the benefit of all. Don't they feel compassion for the people who are supposedly 'deluded'.
If they have actually studied and applied the teachings, these people would have no time to indulge themselves in this Dorje Shugden issue. In fact, many of the more advanced Dharma centers, irregardless of tradition simply do not talk about Dorje Shugden at all in their centers. Nobody discusses about how sectarian Dorje Shugden is, or how bad or how negative he is in those centers. They would rather focus on core teachings of their own tradition rather than anything else. It is only in Dharma centers that are filled with laypeople and having very few ordained members who are experienced in the teachings that they busy themselves with talk of Dorje Shugden. I have checked out many different Dharma centers before and I have observed this phenomena going on. When you are applying the actual teachings, the actual questions are very little, if you just study the teachings from an intellectual level, there will be a lot of irrelevant questions that will be asked. There is a reason why these tantric teachings are not to be discussed except between Guru and student, or between Vajra siblings.
Forums like these actually increase delusions than dispel it. They allow discussions of what is not allowed to be discussed (on tantras, mahamudra and dzogchen) and disallow what it is that are supposed to be discussed (logical reasonings, historical facts, controversial issues) and looks like dharmawheel is going the way of the esangha...
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This is a forum is managed by people who are more European/US centric and it is a shame that though the West represents free speech and freedom of choice will do something so small to restrict discussions about Dorje Shugden or organisations that are actively promoting Dorje Shugden. Thats how I know this ban is wrong it makes people have the fear to all free speech to prevail on the internet.
If people are so sure people who practice Dorje Shugden are part of cults or demon worshippers, then all the more the moderators of this forum should allow freedom to debate and discuss this issue for the benefit of all. Don't they feel compassion for the people who are supposedly 'deluded'.
Forums are also a nice place to try to raise awareness of other projects going on in the world related to our Protector, monasteries, and monks.
I tried to post a link to the new Sponsor a Monk Project but it was deleted. Not sure, maybe my connection made some mistake and the link did not work.
Here is the link:
http://sanghajewels.org/ (http://sanghajewels.org/)
Thank you for everything you do.
:)
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An excuse for being unstable indeed. I know a few like that who tradition hop before mastering even the basic much like calming the mind and training in Lamrim to stabilise their attitude in general.
And oh, get this, a nyingma mod that was in esangha commented that my Guru was very possessive when I told him that my Guru advocated us to only take up one teacher and one lineage unless we have learnt and mastered all that we can with our current teacher because it makes sense. The same nyingma mod is also still a mod in dharmawheel.
I really dont know why is it that they seem to think that the more teachers you have, the merrier, and also that if a teacher does things you dont like or dont feel comfortable with, esangha actually encouraged people to leave their teachers. i was like..wow when i read about it. Shouldnt people recount the story of Milarepa during this time? Should these people not tell this person not to give up? it was in the context of that this person suffered from depression, and the Guru said things to provoke the depression. This person saw that act as harmful and everyone else chimed in. What if the Guru's actions is to actually help remove this person's depression, and by discouraging this person from going to his Guru, this person will have to suffer from his depression for a longer and more intense period in the future?
This is the degeneration of Dharma, ladies and gentlemen.
On this encouragement of Lama hoping I can only say this: Would you leave school when you are not happy with your Biology teacher? If you are studying to be a doctor will you go study with a Literature teacher just because you like the Literature teacher? When a person changes school or even majors he/she loses time, not to mention direction. Obviously, when these people encourage people to hop from centres and Lamas they have no direction and love wasting time... How pathetic... Just sad that innocent people are deluded by these fools.
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I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.
I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden.
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From the evident and comments provided, it seems that they are promoting what they themselves think as right and not in a very dharmic way. For example, they talk about tantra which is not suppose to be discussed in public on a detailed way as only the initiated can have this knowledge. Otherwise, it may cause harm to the uninitiated.
On Shugden, they do not allow discussion on this. However, referring to Dorje Shugden as gyalpo makes me uncomfortable and it is derogatory. However, they are just repeating how the Dalai Lama refers to the Protector. Sad. My conclusion is that they are predominantly Nyingma (nothing wrong with that) and they do not follow Guru devotion or encourage others to do so. As I understand it, Guru Devotion is the number practice of all Vajrayana buddhist. Ironically, they "follow" the Dalai Lama. Wonder, if one day someone said something negative about the Dalai Lama, would they "leave" the Dalai Lama. Wonder if the Dalai is actually their Guru?
Well, if you leave the Guru, it creates the cause for one not to have a Guru in the future or to leave Gurus one after the other. Looks like that is the future for them. I pray for them. May they have Wisdom.
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From the evident and comments provided, it seems that they are promoting what they themselves think as right and not in a very dharmic way. For example, they talk about tantra which is not suppose to be discussed in public on a detailed way as only the initiated can have this knowledge. Otherwise, it may cause harm to the uninitiated.
They have a tantra section that is hidden from view, but a dzogchen section that is in open view that is quite huge, with close to 20k posts, while the other sections have very little posts in comparison. In many Dzogchen texts, it is very clear that there is nothing much about dzogchen to discuss on and its more of an experiential practice. So why are they talking about it so much?
On Shugden, they do not allow discussion on this. However, referring to Dorje Shugden as gyalpo makes me uncomfortable and it is derogatory. However, they are just repeating how the Dalai Lama refers to the Protector. Sad. My conclusion is that they are predominantly Nyingma (nothing wrong with that) and they do not follow Guru devotion or encourage others to do so. As I understand it, Guru Devotion is the number practice of all Vajrayana buddhist. Ironically, they "follow" the Dalai Lama. Wonder, if one day someone said something negative about the Dalai Lama, would they "leave" the Dalai Lama. Wonder if the Dalai is actually their Guru?
From here, is it not clear already what their intentions are? It is very clear to me that they are very against Dorje Shugden in this forum as most of the mods are Nyingma based, but to go all the way and prohibit the teachings of Dorje Shugden Lamas that have not talked about Dorje Shugden is just a bit too far fetched and sectarian. Their faith in the Dalai Lama is not exactly because they have investigated, but its based on blind faith as they cannot explain many things when asked.
Well, if you leave the Guru, it creates the cause for one not to have a Guru in the future or to leave Gurus one after the other. Looks like that is the future for them. I pray for them. May they have Wisdom.
I just hope that they would stop exhibiting sectarian attitudes when telling others to not be sectarian by not demonizing Dorje Shugden practitioners.
Dharmawheel may not be as bad as esangha used to be, but it is slowly heading towards that direction. I really do not hope to see Dharmawheel end up that way, but they have to adopt a more Buddhist attitude and become less fixated on what buddhism should or should not be to represent Buddhism well.
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I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.
I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden.
Well, I'm not sure that locking the threads is such a good thing either. It feigns a kind of liberal approach by "allowing" the subject to be discussed, but not in its totality. If you're locking a thread, you're saying very clearly that you disallow any further comments or discussions on this. Why? Also, when threads are locked, are there clear explanations as to why they have locked the threads? And is it a fair enough reason?
Yes, so some people feel this is something that should not be practiced. But a forum is about discussion, sharing information and knowledge so people can learn mutually - so shouldn't this be discussed so people can be better educated about the issue (both good and "bad") and then come to their own conclusions. Simply locking a thread doesn't give any room for fair discussion, nor closure, nor the space for people to make their own informed decisions.
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I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.
I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden.
I beg to differ. According to their TOS:
4. Discussion of Controversial Practices and Traditions
In light of certain contentious practices and traditions that exist within the scope of Vajrayana Buddhism, the Dharma Wheel website will abide by instructions given to practitioners by the Dalai Lama in regards to discussion of controversial issues, practices, and images. For more information on these instructions, please refer to this synopsis and collection of advice from important lamas, or the Dalai Lama's words on this matter. As explained in this informative talk from the Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive, there are many teachers who have advised in this way before the Dalai Lama. Although the Terms of Service provide specific guidelines surrounding the New Kadampa Tradition, Dharma Wheel volunteer staff will have the right amend or delete any post which they judge may lead to disharmony. This applies to related topics and organizations, including monasteries and lamas currently supporting Shugden practice.
Dharma Wheel ToS are prioritized as to not exclude individual preference of view, but to refrain from the public discussion of controversial topics which detract from productive exchange within the forum.
As the staff recognizes the gravity of such subjects, their implications, and how these discussions affect forum atmospheres, it is the position of the administration that there are better suited environments outside of this Mahayana/Vajrayana internet forum to productively address such complex matters.
That is very clear to me that they choose to be politically correct. What else is there to say about this matter?
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Just because some forums do not accept dhogyal does not mean they are against Gelug or Gelug doctrines. Let's not jump assumptions. Dhogyal is not a Gelug practice or a practice accepted by any sects past or present. It is a negative practice that is eliminated. It is not a Buddhist practice. So if various sites wish not to speak about it would perhaps mean they don't want to waste time on non-dharma subjects?
Just a thought. :)
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I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.
I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden.
Well, I'm not sure that locking the threads is such a good thing either. It feigns a kind of liberal approach by "allowing" the subject to be discussed, but not in its totality. If you're locking a thread, you're saying very clearly that you disallow any further comments or discussions on this. Why? Also, when threads are locked, are there clear explanations as to why they have locked the threads? And is it a fair enough reason?
Yes, so some people feel this is something that should not be practiced. But a forum is about discussion, sharing information and knowledge so people can learn mutually - so shouldn't this be discussed so people can be better educated about the issue (both good and "bad") and then come to their own conclusions. Simply locking a thread doesn't give any room for fair discussion, nor closure, nor the space for people to make their own informed decisions.
I do agree with beggar that their stance are pretty much more liberal comparing to other Tibetan Buddhist forums or websites. There isn't any need to be too over alarmed about discussing Dorje Shugden on such forums but not to barge into the forum like some religious fanatic.
The middle way approach, provide information and let the rest of them handle what they think is the best way to handle the information. Dharma should be adopted with an open mind so that the mind can mature with Dharma, nothing is set in stone except for the Vinaya :)
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I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.
Its more or less, a form of hypocrisy of sorts. They knew what and how esangha ended up with and what they have done in the past, and to not appear to be the bad guy, they pretend to be open and accepting when they are not. At the end, they only want to appear as the good guy even though they know perfectly well what they need to do to be 'good'.
I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden.
Esangha started with thread locking, before it escalated to the deletion of posts that did not agree with their moderators. Things can sometimes escalate very quickly, as when someone who is power hungry managed to convince esangha to ban the talk of Dorje Shugden and NKT, this fuelled this person's hunger for authority, and he got what he wanted, at the expense of many newcomers who only wanted to learn about Buddhism but suddenly they become heretics and are spreading wrong Dharma and must be stopped. It all begins with something as simple as silencing someone or a certain topic.
Well, I'm not sure that locking the threads is such a good thing either. It feigns a kind of liberal approach by "allowing" the subject to be discussed, but not in its totality. If you're locking a thread, you're saying very clearly that you disallow any further comments or discussions on this. Why? Also, when threads are locked, are there clear explanations as to why they have locked the threads? And is it a fair enough reason?
Hypocrisy is what makes them lock the thread, but then again it is very clear that they do not allow the discussion of Dorje Shugden related topics in their T&C, citing that it might upset certain parties. The logic here that I dont understand is, is it okay to upset another party by disallowing discussion on Dorje Shugden then? What is it with this double standard?
Yes, so some people feel this is something that should not be practiced. But a forum is about discussion, sharing information and knowledge so people can learn mutually - so shouldn't this be discussed so people can be better educated about the issue (both good and "bad") and then come to their own conclusions. Simply locking a thread doesn't give any room for fair discussion, nor closure, nor the space for people to make their own informed decisions.
There's always freesangha's approach to move it to the danger forum where people who do not wish to read about it can avoid that section. That makes more sense. Banning discussion of Dorje Shugden in the whole forum is like banning peanut butter in a city just because a few people are allergic to it: it does not make sense.
Dharmawheel is against Dorje Shugden. Freesangha is not. Dharmawheel bans the discussion of DS and lamas practicing DS in totality, Freesangha allows discussions in a private area. With regards to Dharmawheel's reasoning to ban Dorje Shugden from its forums, does it hold up? After seeing freesangha, no, it does not.
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I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.
Its more or less, a form of hypocrisy of sorts. They knew what and how esangha ended up with and what they have done in the past, and to not appear to be the bad guy, they pretend to be open and accepting when they are not. At the end, they only want to appear as the good guy even though they know perfectly well what they need to do to be 'good'.
I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden.
Esangha started with thread locking, before it escalated to the deletion of posts that did not agree with their moderators. Things can sometimes escalate very quickly, as when someone who is power hungry managed to convince esangha to ban the talk of Dorje Shugden and NKT, this fuelled this person's hunger for authority, and he got what he wanted, at the expense of many newcomers who only wanted to learn about Buddhism but suddenly they become heretics and are spreading wrong Dharma and must be stopped. It all begins with something as simple as silencing someone or a certain topic.
Well, I'm not sure that locking the threads is such a good thing either. It feigns a kind of liberal approach by "allowing" the subject to be discussed, but not in its totality. If you're locking a thread, you're saying very clearly that you disallow any further comments or discussions on this. Why? Also, when threads are locked, are there clear explanations as to why they have locked the threads? And is it a fair enough reason?
Hypocrisy is what makes them lock the thread, but then again it is very clear that they do not allow the discussion of Dorje Shugden related topics in their T&C, citing that it might upset certain parties. The logic here that I dont understand is, is it okay to upset another party by disallowing discussion on Dorje Shugden then? What is it with this double standard?
Yes, so some people feel this is something that should not be practiced. But a forum is about discussion, sharing information and knowledge so people can learn mutually - so shouldn't this be discussed so people can be better educated about the issue (both good and "bad") and then come to their own conclusions. Simply locking a thread doesn't give any room for fair discussion, nor closure, nor the space for people to make their own informed decisions.
There's always freesangha's approach to move it to the danger forum where people who do not wish to read about it can avoid that section. That makes more sense. Banning discussion of Dorje Shugden in the whole forum is like banning peanut butter in a city just because a few people are allergic to it: it does not make sense.
Dharmawheel is against Dorje Shugden. Freesangha is not. Dharmawheel bans the discussion of DS and lamas practicing DS in totality, Freesangha allows discussions in a private area. With regards to Dharmawheel's reasoning to ban Dorje Shugden from its forums, does it hold up? After seeing freesangha, no, it does not.
The reason why Freesangha can be lacking in Tibetan Buddhists at times is because they all got the huff when Freesangha refused to kowtow to ostracising Shugden practitoners the Ignorant left and the open minded compassionate Buddhists stayed to converse with one and other like sensible human beings.
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The reason why Freesangha can be lacking in Tibetan Buddhists at times is because they all got the huff when Freesangha refused to kowtow to ostracising Shugden practitoners the Ignorant left and the open minded compassionate Buddhists stayed to converse with one and other like sensible human beings.
It doesnt matter that many Tibetan Buddhists happen to also be people who would believe in anything some high Lama has thrown to them. They only believe in big names and big titles but not the smaller ones that are equally qualified...why? because they are seeking something else in Buddhism and the reason why they joined Buddhism was to look for some sort of self vilification, a sense of belonging and for a sense that they want to be different from Christianity. So they will gobble up whatever that they can get their hands on to, and sadly as long as the person they meet sounds convincing, they will follow that person and listen to that person and I have seen this happen in more ways than one and many times, in fact. All it takes is for them to encounter the right person and for them to understand what the Dharma is really about and they will most probably be on the right path. Many of these newbies sound like confused people and over the years, they become experienced confused people and mislead more people away from what is right...experienced in confusing people because they have no teacher and no lineage and whatever teachers they have, they abandon the teachers whenever someone says something bad about them.
These people really need to learn to have logic. They need to learn from ground up about what is Buddhism about, and to have a firm foundation of the basics. Many newbies are misled by equally confused people who are experts in being confused and teaching things and information that are not supposed to be shared to newbies instead of emphasizing on the basic foundations (which they are probably bad at, which is why they do not want to talk about it) and they gather around these forums to make themselves feel less bad about it.
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From where I is, this sounds like Dharmawheel.net they do not welcome any Dorje Shudgen practitioners.
http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44 (http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44)
Well Dorje Shugden people do not deserve compassion or a voice to air their grievances at all? If we are so wrong lets us do it the old fashion civilised way. To debate and fight it out in the forums. Feels like they are acting like certain faiths, in order to subdue your mind, we will not let anything that can tempt you be shown up. Lets already wear a shoe already not cover the world with leather please.
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From where I is, this sounds like Dharmawheel.net they do not welcome any Dorje Shudgen practitioners.
[url]http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44[/url] ([url]http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44[/url])
Well Dorje Shugden people do not deserve compassion or a voice to air their grievances at all? If we are so wrong lets us do it the old fashion civilised way. To debate and fight it out in the forums. Feels like they are acting like certain faiths, in order to subdue your mind, we will not let anything that can tempt you be shown up. Lets already wear a shoe already not cover the world with leather please.
Dharmawheel has already started its slow descent into failure and misinformation, like esangha did. Esangha previously had draconian rules about Dorje Shugden and the ban on Dorje Shugden gave the moderators more and more authority and courage to ban topics that they did not like from the forum until entire schools were removed and even ordained members from the forum of other traditions that did not agree were banned entirely from the forum. From what I can see, Dharmawheel is following that path and they will repeat what will happen to esangha. They are unable to provide an explanation on why they support the Dalai Lama because they know nothing about Dorje Shugden and they have failed to investigate it properly. Think about it. If the moderators are well aware of this issue and they have fully investigated this issue, why would they be so afraid of people discussing about Dorje Shugden in their forums?
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From where I is, this sounds like Dharmawheel.net they do not welcome any Dorje Shudgen practitioners.
[url]http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44[/url] ([url]http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44[/url])
Well Dorje Shugden people do not deserve compassion or a voice to air their grievances at all? If we are so wrong lets us do it the old fashion civilised way. To debate and fight it out in the forums. Feels like they are acting like certain faiths, in order to subdue your mind, we will not let anything that can tempt you be shown up. Lets already wear a shoe already not cover the world with leather please.
Oh Yes Ive seen plenty of messages like this from certain Moderators
here is an example.
"I am going to be brutally honest with you.
I am going to start by saying that I would say "welcome to Dharma Wheel" but you've been stirring shit from day 1! Like didn't you learn anything from what happened at free-sangha?
Why are you here? Isn't the sandbox at free-sangha big enough for you all? I mean everybody left so that you and your friends could have free reign, so what are doing here? It was you and your friends actions that caused free-sangha to degenerate and implode, now you wanna do the same thing here? Why? What do you gain from this?
Everybody knows your agenda, so grow up and stop playing innocent.
Nobody benefits from your actions, especially not you (quite the opposite really).
frak' sad situation! Really sad!"
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Oh Yes Ive seen plenty of messages like this from certain Moderators
here is an example.
"I am going to be brutally honest with you.
I am going to start by saying that I would say "welcome to Dharma Wheel" but you've been stirring shit from day 1! Like didn't you learn anything from what happened at free-sangha?
Why are you here? Isn't the sandbox at free-sangha big enough for you all? I mean everybody left so that you and your friends could have free reign, so what are doing here? It was you and your friends actions that caused free-sangha to degenerate and implode, now you wanna do the same thing here? Why? What do you gain from this?
Everybody knows your agenda, so grow up and stop playing innocent.
Nobody benefits from your actions, especially not you (quite the opposite really).
frak' sad situation! Really sad!"
As much as we should discuss the issue with as many people as possible, we also have to remember that there are people from other traditions that are not comfortable with Dorje Shugden, as well as the followers of the Dalai Lama. I dont think we should go into dharmawheel and post about Dorje Shugden stuff, knowing that their fragile minds cannot take it but bring up the issue at an opportune discussion or perhaps in a more subtle way without rattling those with weak minds? Some of the mods are nyingma and according to their mental projections, Dorje Shugden is really harming them and the Dalai Lama, like how the practitioner mistakes the rope in the pail as a snake. We should have compassion for them as well. The real reason why they do not want to discuss or dissect the Dorje Shugden issue is because they know they lack knowledge on it and also they are doing it out of blind faith so they fear when people challenge them.
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From where I is, this sounds like Dharmawheel.net they do not welcome any Dorje Shudgen practitioners.
[url]http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44[/url] ([url]http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44[/url])
Well Dorje Shugden people do not deserve compassion or a voice to air their grievances at all? If we are so wrong lets us do it the old fashion civilised way. To debate and fight it out in the forums. Feels like they are acting like certain faiths, in order to subdue your mind, we will not let anything that can tempt you be shown up. Lets already wear a shoe already not cover the world with leather please.
Oh Yes Ive seen plenty of messages like this from certain Moderators
here is an example.
"I am going to be brutally honest with you.
I am going to start by saying that I would say "welcome to Dharma Wheel" but you've been stirring shit from day 1! Like didn't you learn anything from what happened at free-sangha?
Why are you here? Isn't the sandbox at free-sangha big enough for you all? I mean everybody left so that you and your friends could have free reign, so what are doing here? It was you and your friends actions that caused free-sangha to degenerate and implode, now you wanna do the same thing here? Why? What do you gain from this?
Everybody knows your agenda, so grow up and stop playing innocent.
Nobody benefits from your actions, especially not you (quite the opposite really).
frak' sad situation! Really sad!"
We should politely question them back why they do not accept views on Dorje Shugden? It is a Buddhist forum, hence should we not question and debate to clear people's doubts whether it is to oppose or to support the view?
If Dorje Shugden is bad then should we not educate people as to why it is bad, no? They should state why it is bad so that more will benefit from it and not get in to the "wrong" practice if Dorje Shugden is bad, that is the responsibility of Dharma brothers and sisters, no?
What is it is our agenda which they do not like? What shit are we steering that they are saying so rudely? Are we ending up to be like the church, not allowed to talk or debate about issues that we have questions about?
Isn't a forum created for us to share, exchange and learn? Why is it some topics are even banned for debating? Buddha taught us to question everything and hence that is the basis of Buddhist teachings and practices... we're not here to just accept everything based on blind faith... so on what basis is it that we cannot even talk about Dorje Shugden?
Buddhist are supposedly compassionate, logically people so why is it that we act in discriminatory ways when there is something we do not like... shouldn't we be kind and compassionate to teach instead of just being rude and shunning people off????
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ach.
Leave 'em be if that's how they wish to be.
This is why we have our own forum :o
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I took a look at Dharmawheel.net and Freesangha forums. I don't think their admins are necessarily against Dorje Shugden. They locked the threads because the conversations just went overboard and I did notice that the topic of Dorje Shugden always bring about the strongest reaction in the forum-goers. One can look at this in many ways but I choose to look at this in a positive light.
I think that it means it is an issue that is well-known in the mass consciousness of many Buddhists who are very concerned about it. I am sure this means that Dorje Shugden is THE most popular Dharma Protector within the online Buddhist scene. (and in the real world as well) When I think back, all this arose due to the ban instituted by His Holiness the Dalai Lama and I feel that no amount of promotion could have brought Dorje Shugden to this level (of popularity/notoriety) so quickly. This can be debated but this is the facts presented of what's happening and such strong reactions just show how popular he will be when the ban is lifted.
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ach.
Leave 'em be if that's how they wish to be.
This is why we have our own forum :o
Well if you have TOS stating no discussion then it should be upheld bot selectively to allow constant bashing.
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From where I is, this sounds like Dharmawheel.net they do not welcome any Dorje Shudgen practitioners.
[url]http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44[/url] ([url]http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44[/url])
Well Dorje Shugden people do not deserve compassion or a voice to air their grievances at all? If we are so wrong lets us do it the old fashion civilised way. To debate and fight it out in the forums. Feels like they are acting like certain faiths, in order to subdue your mind, we will not let anything that can tempt you be shown up. Lets already wear a shoe already not cover the world with leather please.
Oh Yes Ive seen plenty of messages like this from certain Moderators
here is an example.
"I am going to be brutally honest with you.
I am going to start by saying that I would say "welcome to Dharma Wheel" but you've been stirring shit from day 1! Like didn't you learn anything from what happened at free-sangha?
Why are you here? Isn't the sandbox at free-sangha big enough for you all? I mean everybody left so that you and your friends could have free reign, so what are doing here? It was you and your friends actions that caused free-sangha to degenerate and implode, now you wanna do the same thing here? Why? What do you gain from this?
Everybody knows your agenda, so grow up and stop playing innocent.
Nobody benefits from your actions, especially not you (quite the opposite really).
frak' sad situation! Really sad!"
We should politely question them back why they do not accept views on Dorje Shugden? It is a Buddhist forum, hence should we not question and debate to clear people's doubts whether it is to oppose or to support the view?
If Dorje Shugden is bad then should we not educate people as to why it is bad, no? They should state why it is bad so that more will benefit from it and not get in to the "wrong" practice if Dorje Shugden is bad, that is the responsibility of Dharma brothers and sisters, no?
What is it is our agenda which they do not like? What shit are we steering that they are saying so rudely? Are we ending up to be like the church, not allowed to talk or debate about issues that we have questions about?
Isn't a forum created for us to share, exchange and learn? Why is it some topics are even banned for debating? Buddha taught us to question everything and hence that is the basis of Buddhist teachings and practices... we're not here to just accept everything based on blind faith... so on what basis is it that we cannot even talk about Dorje Shugden?
Buddhist are supposedly compassionate, logically people so why is it that we act in discriminatory ways when there is something we do not like... shouldn't we be kind and compassionate to teach instead of just being rude and shunning people off????
Sometimes it does sound like they want Buddhism the way they think is right. It has to be THEIR way or else you're wrong. It is more of something along those lines. Its not really about the not discussing Dorje Shugden because he is harmful, its more of a power play and control that the mods have. many of the mods at dharmawheel were actually 'survivors' that drifted when the esangha ship sunk. Looks like the apple doesnt fall far from the tree and lessons were not learnt. The power play that sunk esangha started from the banning of Dorje Shugden topics, all the way to the banning of even other traditions of Buddhism which did not agree to the main moderator there. After all, moderators are still human and they are prone to misuse power when given to them.
But when we do spread the world about Dorje Shugden, we have to be aware that it might hurt the sentiments of some people and we have to do it skillfully. Else we are no better than they are.
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Ensapa and people on this thread,
Get over Dhogyal already!
All Buddhists, Buddhist Publishers, forums, sites are agains Dhogyal. Everyone has examined the clear, well researched evidence compassionately presented by HHDL. Those who adhere to reasoning will not practice this distorted being.
If you were such great practitioners of Dhogyal and he has so many blessings, than you should be very devoted to your teacher, apply his teachings and not let your defilements rule your day.
Are you a part of dhogyal's practice? Building a centre for him or involved in any work to enhnace your practice by even studying dharma intensely. Well the dialectical school, Nechung Monastery, the Nunnery, Namgyal Monastery, Gyuto Tantric college (all in dharamsala) really hold the ordination vows, produce or house great teachers and practitioners. They all follow HHDL's instructions and they have achieved this.
You don't follow HHDL's instructions and what have you achieved?
What have you accomplished in the spiritual realm?
Are your defilements under control like so many practitioners I have witnessed in Dharamsala studying, praying, retreating, debating, learning sacred rituals and spend their waking days in dharma and attending teachings. They are close to their teacher (HHDL) and their closeness has produced great results in their mindstreams. This proves HHDL's methods are correct and HHDL's blessings are potent. You should tap into it.
Dhogyal's students are full of anger, they murder, embrace defilements, do not gain any insight and in fact as the years pass that they are 'in dharma' their behaviour and thinking degenerate. This is a clear sign of a degenerate being's 'blessings'.
If Dhogyal was so good, his followers cannot prove it by their actions, individual practices and behaviour. Take a good look at yourselves. I am not saying this to degrade you but as proof positive to do something before it's too late.
Are your defilements under control as the years roll by while you are 'in' dharma? Are you improving. If your improvement is minor, then the blessings are not there.
Sorry. :(
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Hi Tenzin Gyatso,
welcome back! Did you miss us? we did as you add some color to the forum.
Ensapa and people on this thread,
Get over Dhogyal already!
Unless my Guru gives him up, I will NEVER give him up. I might not even give him up even if my Guru gives him up. He gave me so much inner peace that I have thirsted for a long time.
All Buddhists, Buddhist Publishers, forums, sites are agains Dhogyal. Everyone has examined the clear, well researched evidence compassionately presented by HHDL. Those who adhere to reasoning will not practice this distorted being.
I beg to differ. Have a read: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1351.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1351.0[/url]) call me biased, but i think the rebuttals here are more clear and logical than what the Dalai Lama has provided. The info that the Dalai Lama provided cant be verified and backed up with historical documents....not even by bob thurman and dreyfus...i find that weird.
If you were such great practitioners of Dhogyal and he has so many blessings, than you should be very devoted to your teacher, apply his teachings and not let your defilements rule your day.
We're still in samsara so we will be defiled one way or another, but yes we are more peaceful in general and Dharma practice and Guru Devotion is easier for us thanks to Dorje Shugden's protection and blessings.
Are you a part of dhogyal's practice? Building a centre for him or involved in any work to enhnace your practice by even studying dharma intensely. Well the dialectical school, Nechung Monastery, the Nunnery, Namgyal Monastery, Gyuto Tantric college (all in dharamsala) really hold the ordination vows, produce or house great teachers and practitioners. They all follow HHDL's instructions and they have achieved this.
So did Serpom, Shar Ganden, the monks of NKT, monks from New Khadampa (Serkong Tritul) and monks from Lama Gangchen center. They all followed Trijang Rinpoche's instructions and they have achieved the same thing as well. the Dalai Lama is just another Lama in the constellation of Lamas.
You don't follow HHDL's instructions and what have you achieved?
What have you accomplished in the spiritual realm?
Inner peace, clarity, wisdom, sharp wit (I think its probably because Dorje Shugden is Manjushri) and being more patient and resilient in general :)
Are your defilements under control like so many practitioners I have witnessed in Dharamsala studying, praying, retreating, debating, learning sacred rituals and spend their waking days in dharma and attending teachings. They are close to their teacher (HHDL) and their closeness has produced great results in their mindstreams. This proves HHDL's methods are correct and HHDL's blessings are potent. You should tap into it.
The Dalai Lama is Chenresig, but Dharamsala is too far. I do hold him in high esteem though. But anyone who studies under a qualified teacher can get what you just mentioned, so i'm sticking with mine, thank you :)
Dhogyal's students are full of anger, they murder, embrace defilements, do not gain any insight and in fact as the years pass that they are 'in dharma' their behaviour and thinking degenerate. This is a clear sign of a degenerate being's 'blessings'.
If Dhogyal was so good, his followers cannot prove it by their actions, individual practices and behaviour. Take a good look at yourselves. I am not saying this to degrade you but as proof positive to do something before it's too late.
Look at what NKT has achieved, and New Khadampa, and Gangchen Rinpoche. Not to mention the thousands of Shugden devotees in Tibet. I think they all fared very well. As for us, i believe most of us are lay people who have jobs and have to trudge the muds of samsara, its easier than before to have self control of our emotions if i may speak for everyone.
Are your defilements under control as the years roll by while you are 'in' dharma? Are you improving. If your improvement is minor, then the blessings are not there.
Yeah they are. Thanks for reminding me of how I have grown over the years. I have seen my anger and my desires went down by a lot, and a lot more after encountering Dorje Shugden.
Sorry. :(
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Hey Ensapa,
I did miss you guys. I was away and in retreat in Bodhgaya with some monks from Namgyal Monastery for the last few months. Then went back to USA for Xmas and now back in Dharamsala.
Are you close to your guru? Do you make an effort to follow and be close to your guru or follow defilements? If you follow defilements, then why follow Dhogyal? If you choose follow your guru all the way, then you should be advanced by now and getting closer both mentally and spiritually.
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Hey Ensapa,
I did miss you guys. I was away and in retreat in Bodhgaya with some monks from Namgyal Monastery for the last few months. Then went back to USA for Xmas and now back in Dharamsala.
Are you close to your guru? Do you make an effort to follow and be close to your guru or follow defilements? If you follow defilements, then why follow Dhogyal? If you choose follow your guru all the way, then you should be advanced by now and getting closer both mentally and spiritually.
Unfortunately samsara can be sticky at times and defilements do get to me once in a while but remembering his kindness helps in snapping me back into place. I'm not the perfect student, but I strive to. And sometimes, Dorje Shugden would gently help remind me by foiling plans with worldly things to remind me of my true purpose in life. I must say that I am less wild these days even if I am not as close to my Guru as I wish and my mind has calmed down a lot. I dont know if that can be considered advanced, but I am a much better person now in comparison with what i was before I met my Guru.
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Ensapa,
You wrote very honestly here and it's brave of you. If you are not close to your guru but you are still better than before you met your guru. Then you should be close to your guru and you WILL BE EVEN BETTER. That is why I stay in Dharamsala near HHDL. I am better for it and will be even better in the future. You don't need Dhogyal. You need a guru and to be near a guru takes aeons of hard earned accummulated merit we are taught. So don't lose this chance.
Samsara is not sticky at all, as we create the stickiness. Never talk about samsara as if it is a external phenomena seperate from you. You are in control. No one is holding a gun to your head to stay in samsara that is in your own mind.
Pray to Kalarupa, stick with a teacher and be close. You can lose everything BUT YOU SHOULDN'T LOSE YOUR GURU OR GROW FAR.
Kalarupa or any of Tsongkapa's chosen protectors can help you.
;)
Hey Ensapa,
I did miss you guys. I was away and in retreat in Bodhgaya with some monks from Namgyal Monastery for the last few months. Then went back to USA for Xmas and now back in Dharamsala.
Are you close to your guru? Do you make an effort to follow and be close to your guru or follow defilements? If you follow defilements, then why follow Dhogyal? If you choose follow your guru all the way, then you should be advanced by now and getting closer both mentally and spiritually.
Unfortunately samsara can be sticky at times and defilements do get to me once in a while but remembering his kindness helps in snapping me back into place. I'm not the perfect student, but I strive to. And sometimes, Dorje Shugden would gently help remind me by foiling plans with worldly things to remind me of my true purpose in life. I must say that I am less wild these days even if I am not as close to my Guru as I wish and my mind has calmed down a lot. I dont know if that can be considered advanced, but I am a much better person now in comparison with what i was before I met my Guru.
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Ensapa,
You wrote very honestly here and it's brave of you. If you are not close to your guru but you are still better than before you met your guru. Then you should be close to your guru and you WILL BE EVEN BETTER. That is why I stay in Dharamsala near HHDL. I am better for it and will be even better in the future. You don't need Dhogyal. You need a guru and to be near a guru takes aeons of hard earned accummulated merit we are taught. So don't lose this chance.
I already have a Guru and he does propitiate and encourage me to practice Dorje Shugden. He says that Dorje Shugden will be good for me and at the same time he told me to respect the Dalai Lama. So I am following his instructions. I am working my way to be close to my Guru by removing negative mental habits and accumulating merit because there isnt any other way. Thanks for your advice :)
Samsara is not sticky at all, as we create the stickiness. Never talk about samsara as if it is a external phenomena seperate from you. You are in control. No one is holding a gun to your head to stay in samsara that is in your own mind.
I dont see samsara as an external phenomenon because i am already immersed in it. A fish in water does not see water as different from its home. Due to this I need a strong Dharma protector and an extremely patient and kind Guru.
Pray to Kalarupa, stick with a teacher and be close. You can lose everything BUT YOU SHOULDN'T LOSE YOUR GURU OR GROW FAR.
Kalarupa or any of Tsongkapa's chosen protectors can help you.
I do plan to go to Kalarupa's pujas in addition to Dorje Shugden ones. There is nothing wrong with doing the pujas as I have been told.
;)
Thanks for your input Tenzin Gyatso! It is always refreshing to have your input!
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I'm tickled pink by this article ;D but DHARMAWHEEL FORUMS PLEASE READDD PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE gyahahahhaha TAKE THAT DHARMAWHEEL
/rant over
On a serious note, Dharmawheel should really read as they are going against the guidelines. In a very horrible way.
Social media guidelines for so-called Vajrayana students
by Ven Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, The Buddhist Channel, Jan 20, 2012
Timphu, Bhutan -- If you think or believe that you are a student of Vajrayana - whether or not that’s true is another matter - but as long as you think you are a Vajrayana practitioner, it becomes your responsibility to protect this profound tradition.
It’s important to maintain secrecy in the Vajrayana. The Vajrayana is called ‘the secret mantra yana’ because it is intended to be practiced in secrecy. It is not secret because there is something to hide, but in order to protect the practitioner from the pitfalls and downfalls that ego can bring to the practice.
In particular, practitioners tend to fall prey to “spiritual materialism,” where their practice becomes just another fashion statement intended to adorn their egos and make them feel important, or have them feel that they’re part of a ‘cool’ social tribe, rather than to tame and transform their minds. When practiced in this way, the Vajrayana path becomes worse than useless.
Also, the Vajrayana teachings are ‘hidden’ in the sense that their meaning is not apparent to someone who has not received the appropriate teachings. It’s like a foreign language. Because some of the imagery and symbolism can seem strange or even violent to the uninitiated, it’s generally recommended to keep it hidden so that it doesn’t put off newer practitioners, who might develop wrong views about the Buddhist path in general and the Vajrayana path in particular.
While posting on social media, please bear in mind that you are not only posting for your own reading pleasure, but to the whole wide world who most likely don’t share your amusement over crazy photos, nor your peculiar adoration and fantasies of certain personalities you call as guru.
Given this, here are some suggestions I offer fellow so-called Vajrayana students about how you can protect yourself - both by avoiding embarrassment and by protecting your Dharma practice—and also protect the profound Vajrayana tradition:
(1) Maintain the secrecy of the Vajrayana (this includes secrecy about your guru, your practice, tantric images, empowerments you have received, teachings you have attended, etc.)
- Don’t post tantric images: If you think posting provocative tantric images (such as images of deities with multiple arms, animal heads, those in union, and wrathful deities) makes you important, you probably don’t understand their meaning.
- Don’t post mantras and seed syllables: If you think mantras and seed syllables should be posted on Facebook as mood enhancement and self-improvement aids, a makeover or haircut might do a better job.
- Don’t talk about your empowerments: If you think images from your weekend Vajrayana empowerment are worthy of being posted up next to photos of your cat on Facebook, you should send your cat to Nepal for enthronement. Unless you have obtained permission from the teacher, do not post any photo, video or audiorecording of Vajrayana empowerments, teachings or mantras.
- Don’t talk about profound/secret teachings you may have received: Some people seem to find it fashionable to hang words like “Dzogchen” and “Mahamudra” in their mouths. If you have received profound instructions, it is good to follow those instructions and keep them to yourself.
(2) Avoid giving in to the temptations of spiritual materialism and using Dharma in service of your ego (do not attempt to show off about your guru, your understanding, your practice etc. Likewise, do not speak badly of other practitioners or paths.)
- Don’t share your experiences and so-called attainments: If you think declaring what you think you have attained is worthwhile, you may have been busy bolstering your delusion. Trying to impress others with your practice is not part of the practice. Try to be genuine and humble. Nobody cares about your experiences in meditation, even if they include visions of buddhas, unicorns or rainbows. If you think you are free of self deception, go ahead, think again.
- Don’t boast about your guru: No matter how great you think your guru is, it would probably serve better for you to keep your devotion to yourself. Remember that being buddhist is not joining a cult. If you think your guru is better than another’s, you probably think your equanimity and pure perception are better than another’s.
- Don’t attempt to share your so-called wisdom: If you think receiving profound teachings gives you license to proclaim them, you will probably only display your ignorance. Before you “share” a quote from the Buddha or from any of your teachers, take a moment to think if they really said those words, and who the audience was meant to be.
- Don’t confuse Buddhism with non-Buddhist ideas: No matter how inspired you might be of rainbows and orbs, and how convinced you are about the end of the world, try not to mix your own fantasies/idiosyncracies with Buddhism.
- Be respectful to others: Without Theravada and Mahayana as foundation, there would be no Vajrayana. It would be completely foolish of Vajrayana practitioners to look down on or show disdain towards Theravada and Mahayana. If you think attacking other buddhists will improve Buddhism, do a service for Buddhism, take aim at your own ego and biasedness instead.
- Don’t create disharmony: Try to be the one who brings harmony into the sangha community with your online chatter, instead of trouble and disputes.
- Always be mindful of your motivation: Please do not attempt to display “crazy wisdom” behaviors online, just inspire others to have a good heart. If you think you are posting something out of compassion, try first to make sure you are doing no harm.
Whenever you can’t let go of the itch to post something, make sure that it helps whoever who reads it and the Dharma.
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I don't understand why people who claimed themselves as devoted buddhist, running a dharma website can be so prejudice and biased. This should not the be the way, in fact Buddhism promotes patience, an open mind, looking at things at a different angles, debate, finding out the truth, realization etc etc; why would they acted at such? A forum is created for people to discuss, not bashing each other and we should not even ban whatever people would like to state as long as it is not rude and abusive.
Especially this is the age of technology, these wedsites moderator should be more open minded and cautious about the information they release on their websites because wrong information can lead to damages in individual who come to visit your website. So it is vital to do get our facts right.
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I don't understand why people who claimed themselves as devoted buddhist, running a dharma website can be so prejudice and biased. This should not the be the way, in fact Buddhism promotes patience, an open mind, looking at things at a different angles, debate, finding out the truth, realization etc etc; why would they acted at such? A forum is created for people to discuss, not bashing each other and we should not even ban whatever people would like to state as long as it is not rude and abusive.
Especially this is the age of technology, these wedsites moderator should be more open minded and cautious about the information they release on their websites because wrong information can lead to damages in individual who come to visit your website. So it is vital to do get our facts right.
Because they are not practicing Buddhists. They may call themselves as Buddhists, but they are not really Buddhists who apply the teachings and actually make a difference in the lives of themselves and others. There are sections that should NOT be on a forum and should not be up for discussion such as Dzogchen or mahamudra, or even tantra. (in fact, this section should not even be made viewable: http://dharmawheel.net/viewforum.php?f=90&sid=a1381e2da95cc093163503b5bfd0cd82 (http://dharmawheel.net/viewforum.php?f=90&sid=a1381e2da95cc093163503b5bfd0cd82)) The discussion there is more skewed towards blind faith and believing in something that they cannot reason out logically and leverage more on the names of the teachers and founders. It is dangerous to reveal the secrets of tantra to people who are not ready or is just there as scholars, researching the tantric text in a dry way because it would mislead them and delay their Dharma seeds' ripening. Look at that section, then read the list that Dzongzar Khyentse has posted.
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Oh man I cracked myself up when I read this thread where Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche's rules for social media for so called vajrayana students was posted up.
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11547 (http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11547)
There are so many people who still want to wriggle their wan out of the advice and do as they please:
Re: Dzongsar Khyentse's Advice for Social Media
by conebeckham » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:15 am
I read this on FB, as well.
I'm mulling it over...but, what about Liberation by Seeing?
I do think there's something to be said for "motivation"--but, for example, what about our recent Torma thread?
eh, HELLO? Isnt the guidelines clear enough? Still trying to find ways to justify posting those beings so that you can be bodhisattvas....ooooh look at me i post these pics up to bless people so its okay even that my Guru says it is not. Its the context.
e: Dzongsar Khyentse's Advice for Social Media
by Yudron » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:26 am
conebeckham wrote:
I read this on FB, as well.
I'm mulling it over...but, what about Liberation by Seeing?
I do think there's something to be said for "motivation"--but, for example, what about our recent Torma thread?
Well, I'm thinking about it, too. Firstly, I see a dedicated Buddhist forum as different than FB. People come here because they are exploring Buddhism, or are Buddhist.
Rinpoche did not mention shrines and tormas specifically, but I am debating removing my shrine photos from FB, or limiting viewing to friends. DJKR is one of our lineage lamas, and I take his advice very seriously.
then go ahead and remove it? what is there to debate with your Guru's direct instructions? You saying you're debating to remove a picture of your shrine means you're not taking him seriously. duh.
Now I know why nobody in my previous center ever took esangha seriously in the first place because the same issue is happening with dharmawheel as well. Nobody there practices, they just discuss.
To me, this represents the bottom tier of Buddhist practitioners, especially of the vajrayana level. In fact they havent even make it through the Sutra level yet where you learn to accumulate knowledge and develop the mind further for higher practices. And as no surprise, practitioners of this quality tend to be Dalai Lama fans and anti Shugdenites and most of the time, they dont even know why or that the 'facts' they have are imaginary. Jumping straight into tantra and skipping the sutra to me is a cover for lack of Dharma practice and to cover their ego.
Note that the forum still has Dzogchen, Chod and tantra talk sections discussing the very things the social media guidelines spoke against. I wonder if they REALLY get the message of taking down those sections.