Is Dharmawheel.net really against Shugden?

[Ensapa]

Oh Yes Ive seen plenty of messages like this from certain Moderators

here is an example.

"I am going to be brutally honest with you.

I am going to start by saying that I would say "welcome to Dharma Wheel" but you've been stirring shit from day 1! Like didn't you learn anything from what happened at free-sangha?

Why are you here? Isn't the sandbox at free-sangha big enough for you all? I mean everybody left so that you and your friends could have free reign, so what are doing here? It was you and your friends actions that caused free-sangha to degenerate and implode, now you wanna do the same thing here? Why? What do you gain from this?

Everybody knows your agenda, so grow up and stop playing innocent.

Nobody benefits from your actions, especially not you (quite the opposite really).
frak' sad situation! Really sad!"

As much as we should discuss the issue with as many people as possible, we also have to remember that there are people from other traditions that are not comfortable with Dorje Shugden, as well as the followers of the Dalai Lama. I dont think we should go into dharmawheel and post about Dorje Shugden stuff, knowing that their fragile minds cannot take it but bring up the issue at an opportune discussion or perhaps in a more subtle way without rattling those with weak minds? Some of the mods are nyingma and according to their mental projections, Dorje Shugden is really harming them and the Dalai Lama, like how the practitioner mistakes the rope in the pail as a snake. We should have compassion for them as well. The real reason why they do not want to discuss or dissect the Dorje Shugden issue is because they know they lack knowledge on it and also they are doing it out of blind faith so they fear when people challenge them.

[dsiluvu]

From where I is, this sounds like Dharmawheel.net they do not welcome any Dorje Shudgen practitioners.

http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44

Well Dorje Shugden people do not deserve compassion or a voice to air their grievances at all? If we are so wrong lets us do it the old fashion civilised way. To debate and fight it out in the forums. Feels like they are acting like certain faiths, in order to subdue your mind, we will not let anything that can tempt you be shown up. Lets already wear a shoe already not cover the world with leather please.

Oh Yes Ive seen plenty of messages like this from certain Moderators

here is an example.

"I am going to be brutally honest with you.

I am going to start by saying that I would say "welcome to Dharma Wheel" but you've been stirring shit from day 1! Like didn't you learn anything from what happened at free-sangha?

Why are you here? Isn't the sandbox at free-sangha big enough for you all? I mean everybody left so that you and your friends could have free reign, so what are doing here? It was you and your friends actions that caused free-sangha to degenerate and implode, now you wanna do the same thing here? Why? What do you gain from this?

Everybody knows your agenda, so grow up and stop playing innocent.

Nobody benefits from your actions, especially not you (quite the opposite really).
frak' sad situation! Really sad!"

We should politely question them back why they do not accept views on Dorje Shugden? It is a Buddhist forum, hence should we not question and debate to clear people's doubts whether it is to oppose or to support the view?

If Dorje Shugden is bad then should we not educate people as to why it is bad, no? They should state why it is bad so that more will benefit from it and not get in to the "wrong" practice if Dorje Shugden is bad, that is the responsibility of Dharma brothers and sisters, no?

What is it is our agenda which they do not like? What shit are we steering that they are saying so rudely? Are we ending up to be like the church, not allowed to talk or debate about issues that we have questions about?

Isn't a forum created for us to share, exchange and learn? Why is it some topics are even banned for debating? Buddha taught us to question everything and hence that is the basis of Buddhist teachings and practices... we're not here to just accept everything based on blind faith... so on what basis is it that we cannot even talk about Dorje Shugden?

Buddhist are supposedly compassionate, logically people so why is it that we act in discriminatory ways when there is something we do not like... shouldn't we be kind and compassionate to teach instead of just being rude and shunning people off? 

[beggar]

ach.

Leave 'em be if that's how they wish to be.

This is why we have our own forum 

[Big Uncle]

I took a look at Dharmawheel.net and Freesangha forums. I don't think their admins are necessarily against Dorje Shugden. They locked the threads because the conversations just went overboard and I did notice that the topic of Dorje Shugden always bring about the strongest reaction in the forum-goers. One can look at this in many ways but I choose to look at this in a positive light.

I think that it means it is an issue that is well-known in the mass consciousness of many Buddhists who are very concerned about it. I am sure this means that Dorje Shugden is THE most popular Dharma Protector within the online Buddhist scene. (and in the real world as well) When I think back, all this arose due to the ban instituted by His Holiness the Dalai Lama and I feel that no amount of promotion could have brought Dorje Shugden to this level (of popularity/notoriety) so quickly. This can be debated but this is the facts presented of what's happening and such strong reactions just show how popular he will be when the ban is lifted.

[Zach]

ach.

Leave 'em be if that's how they wish to be.

This is why we have our own forum 

Well if you have TOS stating no discussion then it should be upheld bot selectively to allow constant bashing.

[Ensapa]

From where I is, this sounds like Dharmawheel.net they do not welcome any Dorje Shudgen practitioners.

http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44

Well Dorje Shugden people do not deserve compassion or a voice to air their grievances at all? If we are so wrong lets us do it the old fashion civilised way. To debate and fight it out in the forums. Feels like they are acting like certain faiths, in order to subdue your mind, we will not let anything that can tempt you be shown up. Lets already wear a shoe already not cover the world with leather please.

Oh Yes Ive seen plenty of messages like this from certain Moderators

here is an example.

"I am going to be brutally honest with you.

I am going to start by saying that I would say "welcome to Dharma Wheel" but you've been stirring shit from day 1! Like didn't you learn anything from what happened at free-sangha?

Why are you here? Isn't the sandbox at free-sangha big enough for you all? I mean everybody left so that you and your friends could have free reign, so what are doing here? It was you and your friends actions that caused free-sangha to degenerate and implode, now you wanna do the same thing here? Why? What do you gain from this?

Everybody knows your agenda, so grow up and stop playing innocent.

Nobody benefits from your actions, especially not you (quite the opposite really).
frak' sad situation! Really sad!"

We should politely question them back why they do not accept views on Dorje Shugden? It is a Buddhist forum, hence should we not question and debate to clear people's doubts whether it is to oppose or to support the view?

If Dorje Shugden is bad then should we not educate people as to why it is bad, no? They should state why it is bad so that more will benefit from it and not get in to the "wrong" practice if Dorje Shugden is bad, that is the responsibility of Dharma brothers and sisters, no?

What is it is our agenda which they do not like? What shit are we steering that they are saying so rudely? Are we ending up to be like the church, not allowed to talk or debate about issues that we have questions about?

Isn't a forum created for us to share, exchange and learn? Why is it some topics are even banned for debating? Buddha taught us to question everything and hence that is the basis of Buddhist teachings and practices... we're not here to just accept everything based on blind faith... so on what basis is it that we cannot even talk about Dorje Shugden?

Buddhist are supposedly compassionate, logically people so why is it that we act in discriminatory ways when there is something we do not like... shouldn't we be kind and compassionate to teach instead of just being rude and shunning people off?

Sometimes it does sound like they want Buddhism the way they think is right. It has to be THEIR way or else you're wrong. It is more of something along those lines. Its not really about the not discussing Dorje Shugden because he is harmful, its more of a power play and control that the  mods have. many of the mods at dharmawheel were actually 'survivors' that drifted when the esangha ship sunk. Looks like the apple doesnt fall far from the tree and lessons were not learnt. The power play that sunk esangha started from the banning of Dorje Shugden topics, all the way to the banning of even other traditions of Buddhism which did not agree to the main moderator there. After all, moderators are still human and they are prone to misuse power when given to them.

But when we do spread the world about Dorje Shugden, we have to be aware that it might hurt the sentiments of some people and we have to do it skillfully. Else we are no better than they are.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Ensapa and people on this thread,

Get over Dhogyal already!

All Buddhists, Buddhist Publishers, forums, sites are agains Dhogyal. Everyone has examined the clear, well researched evidence compassionately presented by HHDL. Those who adhere to reasoning will not practice this distorted being.

If you were such great practitioners of Dhogyal and he has so many blessings, than you should be very devoted to your teacher, apply his teachings and not let your defilements rule your day.

Are you a part of dhogyal's practice? Building a centre for him or involved in any work to enhnace your practice by even studying dharma intensely. Well the dialectical school, Nechung Monastery, the Nunnery, Namgyal Monastery, Gyuto Tantric college (all in dharamsala) really hold the ordination vows, produce or house great teachers and practitioners. They all follow HHDL's instructions and they have achieved this.

You don't follow HHDL's instructions and what have you achieved?
What have you accomplished in the spiritual realm?
Are your defilements under control like so many practitioners I have witnessed in Dharamsala studying, praying, retreating, debating, learning sacred rituals and spend their waking days in dharma and attending teachings. They are close to their teacher (HHDL) and their closeness has produced great results in their mindstreams. This proves  HHDL's methods are correct and HHDL's blessings are potent. You should tap into it.

Dhogyal's students are full of anger, they murder, embrace defilements, do not gain any insight and in fact as the years pass that they are 'in dharma' their behaviour and thinking degenerate. This is a clear sign of a degenerate being's 'blessings'.

If Dhogyal was so good, his followers cannot prove it by their actions, individual practices and behaviour. Take a good look at yourselves. I am not saying this to degrade you but as proof positive to do something before it's too late.

Are your defilements under control as the years roll by while you are 'in' dharma? Are you improving. If your improvement is minor, then the blessings are not there.

Sorry.

[Ensapa]

Hi Tenzin Gyatso,

welcome back! Did you miss us? we did as you add some color to the forum.

Ensapa and people on this thread,

Get over Dhogyal already!

Unless my Guru gives him up, I will NEVER give him up. I might not even give him up even if my Guru gives him up. He gave me so much inner peace that I have thirsted for a long time.

All Buddhists, Buddhist Publishers, forums, sites are agains Dhogyal. Everyone has examined the clear, well researched evidence compassionately presented by HHDL. Those who adhere to reasoning will not practice this distorted being.

I beg to differ. Have a read: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1351.0 call me biased, but i think the rebuttals here are more clear and logical than what the Dalai Lama has provided. The info that the Dalai Lama provided cant be verified and backed up with historical documents....not even by bob thurman and dreyfus...i find that weird.

If you were such great practitioners of Dhogyal and he has so many blessings, than you should be very devoted to your teacher, apply his teachings and not let your defilements rule your day.
We're still in samsara so we will be defiled one way or another, but yes we are  more peaceful in general and Dharma practice and Guru Devotion is easier for us thanks to Dorje Shugden's protection and blessings.

Are you a part of dhogyal's practice? Building a centre for him or involved in any work to enhnace your practice by even studying dharma intensely. Well the dialectical school, Nechung Monastery, the Nunnery, Namgyal Monastery, Gyuto Tantric college (all in dharamsala) really hold the ordination vows, produce or house great teachers and practitioners. They all follow HHDL's instructions and they have achieved this.
So did Serpom, Shar Ganden, the monks of NKT, monks from New Khadampa (Serkong Tritul) and monks from Lama Gangchen center. They all followed Trijang Rinpoche's instructions and they have achieved the same thing as well. the Dalai Lama is just another Lama in the constellation of Lamas.


You don't follow HHDL's instructions and what have you achieved?
What have you accomplished in the spiritual realm?
Inner peace, clarity, wisdom, sharp wit (I think its probably because Dorje Shugden is Manjushri) and being more patient and resilient in general

Are your defilements under control like so many practitioners I have witnessed in Dharamsala studying, praying, retreating, debating, learning sacred rituals and spend their waking days in dharma and attending teachings. They are close to their teacher (HHDL) and their closeness has produced great results in their mindstreams. This proves  HHDL's methods are correct and HHDL's blessings are potent. You should tap into it.
The Dalai Lama is Chenresig, but Dharamsala is too far. I do hold him in high esteem though. But anyone who studies under a qualified teacher can get what you just mentioned, so i'm sticking with mine, thank you

Dhogyal's students are full of anger, they murder, embrace defilements, do not gain any insight and in fact as the years pass that they are 'in dharma' their behaviour and thinking degenerate. This is a clear sign of a degenerate being's 'blessings'.

If Dhogyal was so good, his followers cannot prove it by their actions, individual practices and behaviour. Take a good look at yourselves. I am not saying this to degrade you but as proof positive to do something before it's too late.
Look at what NKT has achieved, and New Khadampa, and Gangchen Rinpoche. Not to mention the thousands of Shugden devotees in Tibet. I think they all fared very well. As for us, i believe most of us are lay people who have jobs and have to trudge the muds of samsara, its easier than before to have self control of our emotions if i may speak for everyone.

Are your defilements under control as the years roll by while you are 'in' dharma? Are you improving. If your improvement is minor, then the blessings are not there.
Yeah they are. Thanks for reminding me of how I have grown over the years. I have seen my anger and my desires went down by a lot, and a lot more after encountering Dorje Shugden.

Sorry.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Hey Ensapa,

I did miss you guys. I was away and in retreat in Bodhgaya with some monks from Namgyal Monastery for the last few months. Then went back to USA for Xmas and now back in Dharamsala.

Are you close to your guru? Do you make an effort to follow and be close to your guru or follow defilements? If you follow defilements, then why follow Dhogyal? If you choose follow your guru all the way, then you should be advanced by now and getting closer both mentally and spiritually.

[Ensapa]

Hey Ensapa,

I did miss you guys. I was away and in retreat in Bodhgaya with some monks from Namgyal Monastery for the last few months. Then went back to USA for Xmas and now back in Dharamsala.

Are you close to your guru? Do you make an effort to follow and be close to your guru or follow defilements? If you follow defilements, then why follow Dhogyal? If you choose follow your guru all the way, then you should be advanced by now and getting closer both mentally and spiritually.

Unfortunately samsara can be sticky at times and defilements do get to me once in a while but remembering his kindness helps in snapping me back into place. I'm not the perfect student, but I strive to. And sometimes, Dorje Shugden would gently help remind me by foiling plans with worldly things to remind me of my true purpose in life. I must say that I am less wild these days even if I am not as close to my Guru as I wish and my mind has calmed down a lot. I dont know if that can be considered advanced, but I am a much better person now in comparison with what i was before I met my Guru.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Ensapa,

You wrote very honestly here and it's brave of you. If you are not close to your guru but you are still better than before you met your guru. Then you should be close to your guru and you WILL BE EVEN BETTER. That is why I stay in Dharamsala near HHDL. I am better for it and will be even better in the future. You don't need Dhogyal. You need a guru and to be near a guru takes aeons of hard earned accummulated merit we are taught. So don't lose this chance.
Samsara is not sticky at all, as we create the stickiness. Never talk about samsara as if it is a external phenomena seperate from you. You are in control. No one is holding a gun to your head to stay in samsara that is in your own mind.

Pray to Kalarupa, stick with a teacher and be close. You can lose everything BUT YOU SHOULDN'T LOSE YOUR GURU OR GROW FAR.

Kalarupa or any of Tsongkapa's chosen protectors can help you.

 

Hey Ensapa,

I did miss you guys. I was away and in retreat in Bodhgaya with some monks from Namgyal Monastery for the last few months. Then went back to USA for Xmas and now back in Dharamsala.

Are you close to your guru? Do you make an effort to follow and be close to your guru or follow defilements? If you follow defilements, then why follow Dhogyal? If you choose follow your guru all the way, then you should be advanced by now and getting closer both mentally and spiritually.

Unfortunately samsara can be sticky at times and defilements do get to me once in a while but remembering his kindness helps in snapping me back into place. I'm not the perfect student, but I strive to. And sometimes, Dorje Shugden would gently help remind me by foiling plans with worldly things to remind me of my true purpose in life. I must say that I am less wild these days even if I am not as close to my Guru as I wish and my mind has calmed down a lot. I dont know if that can be considered advanced, but I am a much better person now in comparison with what i was before I met my Guru.

[Ensapa]

Ensapa,

You wrote very honestly here and it's brave of you. If you are not close to your guru but you are still better than before you met your guru. Then you should be close to your guru and you WILL BE EVEN BETTER. That is why I stay in Dharamsala near HHDL. I am better for it and will be even better in the future. You don't need Dhogyal. You need a guru and to be near a guru takes aeons of hard earned accummulated merit we are taught. So don't lose this chance.
I already have a Guru and he does propitiate and encourage me to practice Dorje Shugden. He says that Dorje Shugden will be good for me and at the same time he told me to respect the Dalai Lama. So I am following his instructions. I am working my way to be close to my Guru by removing negative mental habits  and accumulating merit because there isnt any other way. Thanks for your advice  

Samsara is not sticky at all, as we create the stickiness. Never talk about samsara as if it is a external phenomena seperate from you. You are in control. No one is holding a gun to your head to stay in samsara that is in your own mind.
I dont see samsara as an external phenomenon because i am already immersed in it. A fish in water does not see water as different from its home. Due to this I need a strong Dharma protector and an extremely patient and kind Guru.

Pray to Kalarupa, stick with a teacher and be close. You can lose everything BUT YOU SHOULDN'T LOSE YOUR GURU OR GROW FAR.

Kalarupa or any of Tsongkapa's chosen protectors can help you.
I do plan to go to Kalarupa's pujas in addition to Dorje Shugden ones. There is nothing wrong with doing the pujas as I have been told.
 

Thanks for your input Tenzin Gyatso! It is always refreshing to have your input!

[Ensapa]

I'm tickled pink by this article  but DHARMAWHEEL FORUMS PLEASE READDD PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE gyahahahhaha TAKE THAT DHARMAWHEEL

/rant over

On a serious note, Dharmawheel should really read as they are going against the guidelines. In a very horrible way.

Social media guidelines for so-called Vajrayana students
by Ven Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, The Buddhist Channel, Jan 20, 2012
Timphu, Bhutan -- If you think or believe that you are a student of Vajrayana - whether or not that’s true is another matter - but as long as you think you are a Vajrayana practitioner, it becomes your responsibility to protect this profound tradition.

It’s important to maintain secrecy in the Vajrayana. The Vajrayana is called ‘the secret mantra yana’ because it is intended to be practiced in secrecy. It is not secret because there is something to hide, but in order to protect the practitioner from the pitfalls and downfalls that ego can bring to the practice.

In particular, practitioners tend to fall prey to “spiritual materialism,” where their practice becomes just another fashion statement intended to adorn their egos and make them feel important, or have them feel that they’re part of a ‘cool’ social tribe, rather than to tame and transform their minds. When practiced in this way, the Vajrayana path becomes worse than useless.

Also, the Vajrayana teachings are ‘hidden’ in the sense that their meaning is not apparent to someone who has not received the appropriate teachings. It’s like a foreign language. Because some of the imagery and symbolism can seem strange or even violent to the uninitiated, it’s generally recommended to keep it hidden so that it doesn’t put off newer practitioners, who might develop wrong views about the Buddhist path in general and the Vajrayana path in particular.


 While posting on social media, please bear in mind that you are not only posting for your own reading pleasure, but to the whole wide world who most likely don’t share your amusement over crazy photos, nor your peculiar adoration and fantasies of certain personalities you call as guru.
Given this, here are some suggestions I offer fellow so-called Vajrayana students about how you can protect yourself - both by avoiding embarrassment and by protecting your Dharma practice—and also protect the profound Vajrayana tradition:

(1) Maintain the secrecy of the Vajrayana (this includes secrecy about your guru, your practice, tantric images, empowerments you have received, teachings you have attended, etc.)

- Don’t post tantric images: If you think posting provocative tantric images (such as images of deities with multiple arms, animal heads, those in union, and wrathful deities) makes you important, you probably don’t understand their meaning.

- Don’t post mantras and seed syllables: If you think mantras and seed syllables should be posted on Facebook as mood enhancement and self-improvement aids, a makeover or haircut might do a better job.

- Don’t talk about your empowerments: If you think images from your weekend Vajrayana empowerment are worthy of being posted up next to photos of your cat on Facebook, you should send your cat to Nepal for enthronement. Unless you have obtained permission from the teacher, do not post any photo, video or audiorecording of Vajrayana empowerments, teachings or mantras.

- Don’t talk about profound/secret teachings you may have received: Some people seem to find it fashionable to hang words like “Dzogchen” and “Mahamudra” in their mouths. If you have received profound instructions, it is good to follow those instructions and keep them to yourself.

(2) Avoid giving in to the temptations of spiritual materialism and using Dharma in service of your ego (do not attempt to show off about your guru, your understanding, your practice etc. Likewise, do not speak badly of other practitioners or paths.)

- Don’t share your experiences and so-called attainments: If you think declaring what you think you have attained is worthwhile, you may have been busy bolstering your delusion. Trying to impress others with your practice is not part of the practice. Try to be genuine and humble. Nobody cares about your experiences in meditation, even if they include visions of buddhas, unicorns or rainbows. If you think you are free of self deception, go ahead, think again.

- Don’t boast about your guru: No matter how great you think your guru is, it would probably serve better for you to keep your devotion to yourself. Remember that being buddhist is not joining a cult. If you think your guru is better than another’s, you probably think your equanimity and pure perception are better than another’s.

- Don’t attempt to share your so-called wisdom: If you think receiving profound teachings gives you license to proclaim them, you will probably only display your ignorance. Before you “share” a quote from the Buddha or from any of your teachers, take a moment to think if they really said those words, and who the audience was meant to be.

- Don’t confuse Buddhism with non-Buddhist ideas: No matter how inspired you might be of rainbows and orbs, and how convinced you are about the end of the world, try not to mix your own fantasies/idiosyncracies with Buddhism.

- Be respectful to others: Without Theravada and Mahayana as foundation, there would be no Vajrayana. It would be completely foolish of Vajrayana practitioners to look down on or show disdain towards Theravada and Mahayana. If you think attacking other buddhists will improve Buddhism, do a service for Buddhism, take aim at your own ego and biasedness instead.

- Don’t create disharmony: Try to be the one who brings harmony into the sangha community with your online chatter, instead of trouble and disputes.

- Always be mindful of your motivation: Please do not attempt to display “crazy wisdom” behaviors online, just inspire others to have a good heart. If you think you are posting something out of compassion, try first to make sure you are doing no harm.

Whenever you can’t let go of the itch to post something, make sure that it helps whoever who reads it and the Dharma.

[Barzin]

I don't understand why people who claimed themselves as devoted buddhist, running a dharma website can be so prejudice and biased.  This should not the be the way, in fact Buddhism promotes patience, an open mind, looking at things at a different angles, debate, finding out the truth, realization etc etc; why would they acted at such?  A forum is created for people to discuss, not bashing each other and we should not even ban whatever people would like to state as long as it is not rude and abusive.

Especially this is the age of technology, these wedsites moderator should be more open minded and cautious about the information they release on their websites because wrong information can lead to damages in individual who come to visit your website.  So it is vital to do get our facts right.

[Ensapa]

I don't understand why people who claimed themselves as devoted buddhist, running a dharma website can be so prejudice and biased.  This should not the be the way, in fact Buddhism promotes patience, an open mind, looking at things at a different angles, debate, finding out the truth, realization etc etc; why would they acted at such?  A forum is created for people to discuss, not bashing each other and we should not even ban whatever people would like to state as long as it is not rude and abusive.

Especially this is the age of technology, these wedsites moderator should be more open minded and cautious about the information they release on their websites because wrong information can lead to damages in individual who come to visit your website.  So it is vital to do get our facts right.

Because they are not practicing Buddhists. They may call themselves as Buddhists, but they are not really Buddhists who apply the teachings and actually make a difference in the lives of themselves and others. There are sections that should NOT be on a forum and should not be up for discussion such as Dzogchen or mahamudra, or even tantra. (in fact, this section should not even be made viewable: http://dharmawheel.net/viewforum.php?f=90&sid=a1381e2da95cc093163503b5bfd0cd82) The discussion there is more skewed towards blind faith and believing in something that they cannot reason out logically and leverage more on the names of the teachers and founders. It is dangerous to reveal the secrets of tantra to people who are not ready or is just there as scholars, researching the tantric text in a dry way because it would mislead them and delay their Dharma seeds' ripening. Look at that section, then read the list that Dzongzar Khyentse has posted.