Can Dorje Shugden be counted as an Yidam

[Damian.D]

If Dorje Shugden is counted as an Yidam is it possible to reach enlightenment with his practice alone? Everyone says he is an enlightened protector but Enlightened enough to go all the way to enlightenment.

[Big Uncle]

Before the question is answered, we must understand what's the difference between a Yidam and a Dharma Protector. Both Yidams and Dharma Protectors can be Buddhas or emanations of Buddhas, which means they are equal from their side. However, the role and function of a Yidam makes him/her, higher than a Dharma Protector although both are enlightened and this is from the side of the practitioner.

So, what does Yidams do for us? Yidams are called Yidams because they are propitiated to bring the practitioner directly or indirectly towards full enlightenment. The meditational propitiation text for a Yidam is called a sadhana or Dahkeh. On the other hand, Dharma Protectors are protectors because the propitiation is a request to clear outer and inner obstacles of the practitioner. Hence, according to current lineages of Dorje Shugden, he is propitiated only as a Dharma Protector. The propitiation text for a Dharma Protector is called a Kangso. 

However, if a great master of authentic lineage can compose and put his seal towards a Sadhana or Dahkeh, then Dorje Shugden can be propitiated as a Yidam. This would be special because Dorje Shugden physically resides within our world (although he has a mind of Manjushri) so real attainments could be achieved even quicker. However, no sadhana have yet been penned by any great Lama. Perhaps, we need to request and keep requesting till the time is right for this to happen.

[WisdomBeing]

This is an interesting topic which I would like to seek clarification on. Does this mean then that a Lama can create a Yidam from a Dharma Protector? I was told that enlightened Dharma Protectors appear in their worldly forms so that they are closer to us as opposed to our yidams. So what happens when they become yidams? Are they still as accessible?

What would the process be? Can any Lama do it or does it need to be endorsed by the spiritual head of the lineage or a monastery?

Just curious as always.

Thank you!

[Barzin]

This is a wonderful topic.  Yes, I would like to know more please...

According to Big Uncle "Yidams are called Yidams because they are propitiated to bring the practitioner directly or indirectly towards full enlightenment."

So just like Wisdom Being's question, does it require a guru to do so, or anyone lama? Or by the monastery.  Then how are we decide if we need a Yidam?

[Tammy]

Thank you Damian.D for bringing this up, it's always been in my mind but no sure how and where to bring it up - how do we know who is our Yidam? Do we soul search ? LOL

On a more seriously note, would appreciate if someone could shed some lights on this..

[DSFriend]

Do read this thread posted last year. I am most appreciative for TK's sharing on this topic which i think will be most beneficial to our new friends who have joined this forum.

Shugden Arising As A Yidam
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=903.0

[Carpenter]

If Dorje shugden is suppose to be closer to us, so does it mean by having Dorje Shugden as my Yidam will be more effective? And what is the different between having Dorje Shugden as Yidam and having Manjushri as Yidam?

[beggar]

Hey DamianD,
 
That's a good question. Yes, indeed Dorje Shugden, as an emanation of Manjushri, is a fully enlightened being. He is also very special as his previous incarnations were highly attained and respected Lamas, so he can also manifest to us as a teaching Lama (sometimes when he speaks to us through an oracle, he could be coming through as Duldzin, who is a Lama).
 
I have already written a post about the difference between yidam / dharmapala practice which I think may be helpful in answering your question: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1223.msg15631#msg15631
 
In short: from the side of the Buddha, there is no difference - he can manifest as a yidam, as a dharma protector, as a dakini / daka etc
The difference is in the way the prayers / practices are presented, which have different effects for us and what we wish to accomplish in our practice. Do read the link.
 

[Damian.D]

Hey DamianD,
 
That's a good question. Yes, indeed Dorje Shugden, as an emanation of Manjushri, is a fully enlightened being. He is also very special as his previous incarnations were highly attained and respected Lamas, so he can also manifest to us as a teaching Lama (sometimes when he speaks to us through an oracle, he could be coming through as Duldzin, who is a Lama).
 
I have already written a post about the difference between yidam / dharmapala practice which I think may be helpful in answering your question: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1223.msg15631#msg15631
 
In short: from the side of the Buddha, there is no difference - he can manifest as a yidam, as a dharma protector, as a dakini / daka etc
The difference is in the way the prayers / practices are presented, which have different effects for us and what we wish to accomplish in our practice. Do read the link.
 

That is very special indeed. AHH yes, to put limitations on the Buddha is like putting limitations on what we can achieve. Basically our demon ego self sabotaging ourselves before we have begun.

So in a sense having Dorje Shugden, we can have Manjushri, and all the Lineage Masters all rolled into the one being, one practice. Hence it is possible to gain enlightenment by practicing Dorje Shugden alone.

Kinda helps clarify the other thread regarding too many practices.

Thanx Beggar.
Whenever I hit a brick wall in future will ask myself...

COULD BUDDHAs really be stopped by such a situation.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

In Vajrayana, everything is about practice, and there is no point in trying to build a grand theory of everything.

In Vajrayana, there is the "trinity of refuge practice", a bit different from the Sutric refuge, and there is also the "trinity of the Buddhas" that is expressed as the Guru, Ishtadevata, Daka/Dakini/Dharmapala, or Lama, Yidam, Pawo/Khandro... or Teacher, Deity, Dakini/Protector. These triune objects act as either the objects of the Tantric Tri-fold refuge, and also as "the three faces of the Buddha". As tor the refuge, the Teacher acts as the Buddha-jewel, the Yidam as the Dharmapractice-jewel, and the Dakinis and Dharmaprotectors as the Sangha-jewel. As for the identity of the Tantric Three Jewels, the Guru, Yidam and Protector can be taken as a single principle of Dharma-source, manifesting in three different aspects of the source, the Buddha-jewel - or even as in sometimes: the Guru is Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

So, in one sense, the Guru, Deity and Protector are the same, the Buddha-jewel. And yet, they are not, as it is clear that for instance the Guru might live in England, the Yidam being me the practitioner, and the Protector being someone I ask a favour while residing in non-england. The identities and so forth of all these things do all depend on what you practice at a given point of time. No grand theory is asked or available, only separate practices.

The practice of Yidam is about being the Yidam, and that is something one does not do with Protectors - the Dharma and Sangha being different. So no, Shugden is not to be counted as a Yidam. (You might be Guru-Manjushri due to guru-yoga and completion stage practice, and the Guru and Protector might be Manjushri due to some emanational occurence, but nevertheless, you would not be the Protector. Yidam and Dharmapala are not same, no matter how much they both are Manjushri.)

The idea of Fourfold refuge, where the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha are united in the Guru, adds of course more confusion to the situation. But nevertheless, Protectors are not Yidams, as the practice is different. It would be good, if people would practice, not speculate. All the different mandala-classes present different worldviews, and to even to try to get or formulate "a grand unified tantric theory", is doomed on the outset. In Vajrayana, there is only the practice which is rather clear and easy, but the theories, even the canonic theories do note, are in contradiction among themselves, and only muddy the waters of Dharma.

Dorje Shugden is a Protector, who helps the practitioner in his or her ethical activities, be they daily, Sutric or Tantric. The practitioner is nevertheless not Dorje Shugden, and the practitioner cannot practice in a manner thinking he or she would be.

[DharmaSpace]

Yes Dorje Shugen is now just a protector can that change that will depend on whether the people whether a fierce Manjushri needs to arise as a  Yidam to suit the people of these times or not.

In the 20h century we have seen the great Domo Geshe install Namka Barzin , his acts mimicked that of Padmasambhava who installed Nechung as a worldly protector sworn to server Buddhism. Yes such scenarios can surely happen. 

[Big Uncle]

In Vajrayana, everything is about practice, and there is no point in trying to build a grand theory of everything.

In Vajrayana, there is the "trinity of refuge practice", a bit different from the Sutric refuge, and there is also the "trinity of the Buddhas" that is expressed as the Guru, Ishtadevata, Daka/Dakini/Dharmapala, or Lama, Yidam, Pawo/Khandro... or Teacher, Deity, Dakini/Protector. These triune objects act as either the objects of the Tantric Tri-fold refuge, and also as "the three faces of the Buddha". As tor the refuge, the Teacher acts as the Buddha-jewel, the Yidam as the Dharmapractice-jewel, and the Dakinis and Dharmaprotectors as the Sangha-jewel. As for the identity of the Tantric Three Jewels, the Guru, Yidam and Protector can be taken as a single principle of Dharma-source, manifesting in three different aspects of the source, the Buddha-jewel - or even as in sometimes: the Guru is Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

So, in one sense, the Guru, Deity and Protector are the same, the Buddha-jewel. And yet, they are not, as it is clear that for instance the Guru might live in England, the Yidam being me the practitioner, and the Protector being someone I ask a favour while residing in non-england. The identities and so forth of all these things do all depend on what you practice at a given point of time. No grand theory is asked or available, only separate practices.

The practice of Yidam is about being the Yidam, and that is something one does not do with Protectors - the Dharma and Sangha being different. So no, Shugden is not to be counted as a Yidam. (You might be Guru-Manjushri due to guru-yoga and completion stage practice, and the Guru and Protector might be Manjushri due to some emanational occurence, but nevertheless, you would not be the Protector. Yidam and Dharmapala are not same, no matter how much they both are Manjushri.)

The idea of Fourfold refuge, where the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha are united in the Guru, adds of course more confusion to the situation. But nevertheless, Protectors are not Yidams, as the practice is different. It would be good, if people would practice, not speculate. All the different mandala-classes present different worldviews, and to even to try to get or formulate "a grand unified tantric theory", is doomed on the outset. In Vajrayana, there is only the practice which is rather clear and easy, but the theories, even the canonic theories do note, are in contradiction among themselves, and only muddy the waters of Dharma.

Dorje Shugden is a Protector, who helps the practitioner in his or her ethical activities, be they daily, Sutric or Tantric. The practitioner is nevertheless not Dorje Shugden, and the practitioner cannot practice in a manner thinking he or she would be.

Dear Zhalmed Pawo,

You are unclear with your explanation. Why is it that Dorje Shugden cannot be a Yidam? Given that a High Lama of authentic lineage composes his Sadhana? After all, all Sadhanas (lower or higher Tantras), Kangsos etc were composed or compiled by great masters of the past based on the need and karma of the people and time (and also by request). So, could you explain a little clearly so everyone can learn?

[DharmaDefender]

If Dorje shugden is suppose to be closer to us, so does it mean by having Dorje Shugden as my Yidam will be more effective? And what is the different between having Dorje Shugden as Yidam and having Manjushri as Yidam?

To me theres no difference. In fact, I received Manjushri first before Dorje Shugden. I still like Manjushri and even though hes the same mind as Dorje Shugden, for some reason I like Dorje Shugden even more. So its about karmic affinity. Some people feel 'nothing' when they see Tara, but get excited when they see...I dont know, Heruka or Dukkar. Just trust your lama to give you whats appropriate for you. Guru devotion is fundamental to receiving higher practices anyway.

[Vajraprotector]

I would like to clarify whether what I understood is correct. I do not know much about Tantric practices, so perhaps someone can help me out here.

The yidam is chosen, often by a guru, to correspond to a tantra practitioner's own personality. The yidam is visualized in meditation practice as an aid in inner transformation. Francesca Fremantle in The Tibetan Book of the Dead wrote that "The real meaning of yidam is entirely internal and psychological; the yidam is the expression of one's own basic nature, visualised as a divine form in order to relate with it and express its full potentiality."

Thus Yidams do not have the kind of true existence as is attributed to worldly gods.  The reason that the yidams appear in various forms, for example peaceful and wrathful, is that the disciples have different attitudes, views and aspirations. 

The many yidams we see in pictures and visualize are not “real” and they are symbols of the ultimate yidam. The various forms and attributes of the deities point to manifold habits of clinging, grasping, and holding impure appearances in one's mind. There are so many impure ideas and things one thinks are real. Each yidam symbolizes one of the many aspects of clinging and clutching.

According to Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, the deities are not solid entities that exist of an own accord. If a practitioner believes a yidam is a substantial entity, he or she will become confused and deluded. One needs to know what their various forms really represent and mean. If we think such a deity is a solid existent, then the yidam wouldn't represent something needing to be purified by an image that can bring this about. Should we believe in a deity with many arms, legs, and eyes, then it would be very foolish. A mistaken practitioner would hold on to an absurd view and fall into a completely wrong path.

So on this basis, isn’t the form of Dorje Shugden possible to be taken as a yidam? In Heart Jewel: The essential practices of Kadampa Buddhism, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso suggested that Dorje Shugden's form reveals the complete stages of the path of Sutra and Tantra.

Dorje Shugden appears as a fully ordained monk to show that the practice of pure moral discipline is essential for those who wish to attain enlightenment. In his left hand, he holds a human heart to symbolize great compassion and spontaneous great bliss – the essence of all the stages of the vast path of Sutra and Tantra. His round yellow hat represents the view of Nagarjuna, and the wave-shaped sword in his right hand teaches us to sever ignorance, the root of samsara, with the sharp blade of wisdom.

So what we need is just an attained great master who can compose a text and explained to us these “hidden secrets” and the appropriate process of meditation, no? I am not saying all protector deities can be yidams, but specifically Dorje Shugden.

[Big Uncle]

I would like to clarify whether what I understood is correct. I do not know much about Tantric practices, so perhaps someone can help me out here.

The yidam is chosen, often by a guru, to correspond to a tantra practitioner's own personality. The yidam is visualized in meditation practice as an aid in inner transformation. Francesca Fremantle in The Tibetan Book of the Dead wrote that "The real meaning of yidam is entirely internal and psychological; the yidam is the expression of one's own basic nature, visualised as a divine form in order to relate with it and express its full potentiality."

Thus Yidams do not have the kind of true existence as is attributed to worldly gods.  The reason that the yidams appear in various forms, for example peaceful and wrathful, is that the disciples have different attitudes, views and aspirations. 

The many yidams we see in pictures and visualize are not “real” and they are symbols of the ultimate yidam. The various forms and attributes of the deities point to manifold habits of clinging, grasping, and holding impure appearances in one's mind. There are so many impure ideas and things one thinks are real. Each yidam symbolizes one of the many aspects of clinging and clutching.

According to Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, the deities are not solid entities that exist of an own accord. If a practitioner believes a yidam is a substantial entity, he or she will become confused and deluded. One needs to know what their various forms really represent and mean. If we think such a deity is a solid existent, then the yidam wouldn't represent something needing to be purified by an image that can bring this about. Should we believe in a deity with many arms, legs, and eyes, then it would be very foolish. A mistaken practitioner would hold on to an absurd view and fall into a completely wrong path.

So on this basis, isn’t the form of Dorje Shugden possible to be taken as a yidam? In Heart Jewel: The essential practices of Kadampa Buddhism, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso suggested that Dorje Shugden's form reveals the complete stages of the path of Sutra and Tantra.

Dorje Shugden appears as a fully ordained monk to show that the practice of pure moral discipline is essential for those who wish to attain enlightenment. In his left hand, he holds a human heart to symbolize great compassion and spontaneous great bliss – the essence of all the stages of the vast path of Sutra and Tantra. His round yellow hat represents the view of Nagarjuna, and the wave-shaped sword in his right hand teaches us to sever ignorance, the root of samsara, with the sharp blade of wisdom.

So what we need is just an attained great master who can compose a text and explained to us these “hidden secrets” and the appropriate process of meditation, no? I am not saying all protector deities can be yidams, but specifically Dorje Shugden.

Dear Vajraprotector,
Yidams are like what you said, a roadmap to enlightenment and so forth. However, they are real and I think the sources that you quote are taken out of context. The Lamas you quote are not saying that Yidams do not exist, they are saying that they don't exist in the way we perceive them to exist. The teaching that you quote seems to be emphasizing on the deeper meaning of Yidams. Perhaps it is a teaching for an audience that regard pujas and sadhanas to these Yidams superficially and do not contemplate the deeper meaning of Yidams.

However, Yidams do exists and Manjushri does exist with him wielding a sword and so forth. They must be real otherwise, why meditate on their holy body? Why not just meditate on teachings and concepts of compassion and wisdom. Actually that will work too but slower as meditating on the body of Buddha is invoking upon the power of a Being who had achieved enlightenment by perfecting the qualities we hope to embody. So it is not just an abstract concept, it is a living Mind of a Buddha in the form of a Yidam.

I don't fully understand some of the things you mentioned like, "Each yidam symbolizes one of the many aspects of clinging and clutching." How can a Yidam symbolize something negative? So, if Dorje Shugden is taken as a Yidam, he becomes more than just a symbol. Through the blessings of the great master who would compose his Sadhana, one would invoke Dorje Shugden's blessings to take us directly towards enlightenment. Based on your logic that Yidams don't exist and Dorje Shugden definitely exists, than how can he be a Yidam? I got a little confused with your argument towards the end...