Where are all the Nechung articles?

[Ensapa]

In the not so distant past, I used to be able to find extensive information on Nechung's website, Nechung.org on Nechung as well as on Nechungfoundation.org, as well as his complete sadahans available for download at the said websites. There were webpages describing in great detail and there is a separate page just for Nechung alone, describing his history and so forth. But recently, those pages were gone and there is only very brief information on Nechung. I wonder what happened until Nechung was "downgraded" like that? Isnt he supposed to be an enlightened protector that the Dalai Lama relies on? Why is he now being hidden as if he is something shameful? It would be nice if we could all gain more information of him or that these websites actually make him more prominent, or perhaps, even these websites are too ashamed of Nechung?

[christine V]

Dear Ensapa,
Could it be just temporary close down? I could still log in and view the website that talk about Nechung
the link as stated
1) The Nechung foundation-  http://nechung.org/oracle/about.php
2) Nechung, The State Oracle of Tibet, from Government Of Tibet In Exile Website-   
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_shambahla01a.htm
3) Nechung Foundation- http://nechungfoundation.org/about-foundation.html
4) Nechung Buddhist Center- http://www.nechungbuddhistcenter.org/

[Ensapa]

Dear Ensapa,
Could it be just temporary close down? I could still log in and view the website that talk about Nechung
the link as stated
1) The Nechung foundation-  http://nechung.org/oracle/about.php
2) Nechung, The State Oracle of Tibet, from Government Of Tibet In Exile Website-   
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_shambahla01a.htm
3) Nechung Foundation- http://nechungfoundation.org/about-foundation.html
4) Nechung Buddhist Center- http://www.nechungbuddhistcenter.org/

I'm not talking about the websites, but on the articles on these websites.

They used to have an entire page discussing on how and why Nechung is enlightened and how is he linked to the 5 Buddha families, but now all that remains is only a one line description about him. Most of the articles are about the oracle and not about Nechung himself. In the past, there was articles everywhere that glorified Nechung and talked about how he is enlightened and his good qualities etc, but such articles have since evaporated...nechung.org even used to have his sadhana for download, but that too is gone now. I am wondering why the sudden change and the sudden omission? Is there something to hide?

[fruven]

You can give www.archive.org a try. The site do cached some of the older articles from around the web.

[Ensapa]

I mean, with the recent reports that Nechung is no longer trusted by the TYC and many more modern Tibetans, isnt it too coincidental that most information on him has disappeared on the net? He used to be the poster boy of Dharma protectors due to his close association with the Dalai Lama, but ever since his latest string of failed predictions, he seemed to have been sidelined not only by the Tibetans, but also by most Tibetan Buddhists in general. The Sadhana of him that was made online last year has been taken off, but it would be interesting to get hold of it, neverthenless.

[Blueupali]

Maybe they only write about Buddhas:)?

[Ensapa]

Maybe they only write about Buddhas:)?

Technically, in the Nyingma and Kagyu traditions Nechung is enlightened. And this is a 'fact' of sorts. Sakya remains impartial to Nechung's status, but ever since the Rime movement, they have also unofficially regarded Nechung as enlightened. Gelug however, does not really see Nechung as enlightened but Trijang Rinpoche and Lelung Rinpoche both have hinted that he is. In other words, Nechung IS regarded as a Buddha, but for some reasons unknown much of the references to this has been removed from Tibetan Buddhist websites recently as these 'evidence' were still around last year.

[Blueupali]

I would be really delighted if Nechung turned out to be a Buddha, however, I got the impression that the Dalai Lama, though he relies on Nechung, considers Nechung a spirit.  (I am looking for a reference). I have never quite worked out why it's supposed to be okay for him to rely on a spirit, but by just misnaming Dorje Shugden a 'spirit' he is able to cause biogotry and prejudice against so many Buddhists.
  It is strange too, that the Dalai Lama always says he wants to emulate the 5th Dalai Lama--- not all the Dalai Lama recognitions have been enlightnened so, he picked the 5th to emulate, which would indicate to me, along with his illogical arguement for Nechung and against Shugden, that maybe he just wants for people to ignore anything he says with his mouth.  Maybe his activity this life is very political, and will get so bizarre, that we should just ignore him.  If he is an enlightened being, I think what he is saying is "ignore anything my mouth says, because I am not in a position to give good Buddhist advice."
 

[Ensapa]

I would be really delighted if Nechung turned out to be a Buddha, however, I got the impression that the Dalai Lama, though he relies on Nechung, considers Nechung a spirit.  (I am looking for a reference). I have never quite worked out why it's supposed to be okay for him to rely on a spirit, but by just misnaming Dorje Shugden a 'spirit' he is able to cause biogotry and prejudice against so many Buddhists.
  It is strange too, that the Dalai Lama always says he wants to emulate the 5th Dalai Lama--- not all the Dalai Lama recognitions have been enlightnened so, he picked the 5th to emulate, which would indicate to me, along with his illogical arguement for Nechung and against Shugden, that maybe he just wants for people to ignore anything he says with his mouth.  Maybe his activity this life is very political, and will get so bizarre, that we should just ignore him.  If he is an enlightened being, I think what he is saying is "ignore anything my mouth says, because I am not in a position to give good Buddhist advice."
 

However, Nyingma/Kagyu has always insisted that Nechung is enlightened, which i find it very strange. Also, Trijang Rinpoche and Lelung Rinpoche has mentioned before that he is enlightened in Music Delighting the Ocean of protectors. I find the Dalai Lama's decision to ban Dorje Shugden illogical, but at the same time i also understand that there may be a bigger reason behind that because Trijang Rinpoche has also predicted that before in the same text and told us to not take sides in this matter. Prophetic indeed!

[Big Uncle]

However, Nyingma/Kagyu has always insisted that Nechung is enlightened, which i find it very strange. Also, Trijang Rinpoche and Lelung Rinpoche has mentioned before that he is enlightened in Music Delighting the Ocean of protectors. I find the Dalai Lama's decision to ban Dorje Shugden illogical, but at the same time i also understand that there may be a bigger reason behind that because Trijang Rinpoche has also predicted that before in the same text and told us to not take sides in this matter. Prophetic indeed!

Well, I am not too sure I agree with you. I have not seen any passages anywhere of Kagyu or Nyingma origin that claims that Nechung is enlightened. And if Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche says that, please quote it here to be sure. If Nechung is enlightened, why does DS need to take over and replace him as the Chief of all Dharma Protectors in the prophecy of the Changing of the Guardians.

( http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/universal-protector-of-future-buddhism/ ) So, what you say does not make sense and it does not hold well with conventional understanding of Nechung. If Nechung is enlightened, why does he make so many mistakes in his prophecies. You never hear the same thing about a Dorje Shugden oracle. It does not make sense to me. 

[Ensapa]

Well, I am not too sure I agree with you. I have not seen any passages anywhere of Kagyu or Nyingma origin that claims that Nechung is enlightened. And if Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche says that, please quote it here to be sure. If Nechung is enlightened, why does DS need to take over and replace him as the Chief of all Dharma Protectors in the prophecy of the Changing of the Guardians.

( http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/universal-protector-of-future-buddhism/ ) So, what you say does not make sense and it does not hold well with conventional understanding of Nechung. If Nechung is enlightened, why does he make so many mistakes in his prophecies. You never hear the same thing about a Dorje Shugden oracle. It does not make sense to me.

To be honest, i have read in some Nyingma/Kagyu sources which i am unable to recall or find now that says that Nechung is enlightened. Also, you will find that many Nyingma/Kagyu students and practitioners would also think and consider that Nechung is enlightened when you ask them, but i am sure not all as different lineages have different interpretations about Nechung but the Nyingma and Kagyu people that i have met tend to consider him as enlightened. There is a theory where the current Nechung taking trance isnt the real Nechung, but of another being:

Nechung’s Follies, Nyagtru’s Revenge
Omitted so far from this essay is Bell’s account of a scapegoat for the Nechung oracle’s mistaken actions and advice. First, it is necessary to understand a rather unfortunate political intrigue earlier in the life of the 13th Dalai Lama that has been recounted in various books; the account also has been active orally with older monks and lamas. Although it could be dismissed as superstition, any Tibetan history book of that era would be incomplete without it. Melvin Goldstein’s History of Modern Tibet, 1913-1951 (pages 42-43) summarizes this incident, this account being more sympathetic to Demo Rimpoche’s motivation than others:
No sooner had the 13th Dalai Lama become the ruler of Tibet than Demo Rimpoche, the regent of the 13th Dalai Lama’s minority, attempted to regain power by killing him through Buddhist black magic. It appears that after Demo Rimpoche relinquished power to the 13th Dalai Lama, his enemies began to exact revenge on him by harming his supporters and friends. Helpless to protect them, the ex-regent and his brother and manager, Norbu Tsering, became increasingly frustrated and bitter. Norbu Tsering enlisted the help of a lama known as Nyagtru, from Nyarong in Eastern Tibet, who used the deity Shinje Tsheda in his black magic rites and ultimately prepared a particularly powerful mantra which consisted of the figure of a man with outstretched arms and legs. Surrounding this figure were various written mantras, and inside its body the words Thubten Gyatso and chiwa were written: Thubten Gyatso was the personal name of the 13th Dalai Lama, and chiwa was his birth year. This black mantra was put inside the sole of a beautiful pair of new boots which Demo Rinpoche sent as a gift to Sogya, another Khamba lama who had achieved a high level of spiritual development through the diety Shinje Tsheda and whose own spiritual development, it was believed would synergistically increase the power of the black magic and end the Dalai Lama’s life.
But this plot was perhaps successfully foiled by the Nechung Oracle, per Goldstein:
The official version of the incident reports that the state oracle, Nechung, prophesied that the Dalai Lama’s life was in danger and that the boots recently given to a Sogya Lama should be investigated. Sogya was summoned and he confirmed that he had received the boots; he added that the boots were strange, for when he put them on his nose started to bleed. The boots were immediately sent for and taken apart in front of everybody, and the mantra was found in the inner sole. It appears more likely, however, that Sogya Lama discovered the plot and informed the Dalai Lama or his officials and that Nechung then opened the soles and found the black magic mantra.
Goldstein’s account states that as a result Demo Rimpoche, Norbu Tsering, Nyagtru and others were arrested. Demo Rimpoche died while under house arrest, while Nyagtru and Norbu Tsering died later or were perhaps killed. Sir Charles Bell relates the same previous story in brief, but continues where the previous account ends. In particular, he writes that Nyagtru’s death was indeed violent (page 437):
The tulku was arrested, put in prison, and given many severe floggings with the usual leather thongs on his bare skin, so that his flesh hung in strips after each flogging. But he was a Lama of great learning and ability, and he used to meditate on ‘the void.’ So it was noticed that during each flogging, severe though it was, he uttered no exclamation of pain, not even the smallest sound. And what was still more remarkable, by the next day his flesh had entirely healed.
And, per Bell’s account, the monk escapes this situation through suicide. Yet another source states that he died after vivisection at the hands of his captors:
At length, however, angry in this treatment, the Nyarong tulku asked the warder in charge of him for a small knife to cut a lump out of his boot. The warder gave it. When the lama went to pay a call of nature, he used the opportunity to cut his throat. The warder rushed up to seize him, so the lama jumped out of the window of his cell, which was two floors above the ground. The fall killed him.
Although Nyagtru dies here, the import of the story is only beginning. Bell continues:
Passing from this life thus, in anger at the treatment he had received, he reincarnated as a devil, and being of great learning and ability, as a powerful devil. So a high lama of eastern Tibet was engaged to catch the tulku’s mind, put it in the ground, and build a choten over it. This was done; the choten was strongly built, and the necessary articles - religious books and the like were placed inside of it. But a day or two afterwards a great vertical crack was seen in the choten. There had been no earthquake or thunderstorm, and it was clear that the devil was one of great power, and so the mind was able to crack the choten and escape through it.
And this “devil,” according to Bell’s account was responsible for interfering with the Nechung Oracle:
This and other evil counsels were not the true utterances of the Oracle, but were put into the mind of the prophet by this evil. And it was this devil who instigated the prophet to give this deadly medicine.
I first heard of Nyagtru’s tale from an old Shugden lama. Given its superstitious nature, I was naturally skeptical about it. Yet upon seeing this in Bell’s account, written not long after Dalai Lama’s death, it legitimized its historical provenance, whether it is actually true or not. Finally, regarding the so-called devil Nyagtru, Bell states, “This is the only instance which I heard that a tulku had been reborn as a devil.” The implications of this statement are great, namely that if the 13th Dalai Lama considered Dorje Shugden as a demon or devil—as the 14th Dalai Lama suggests he did—then certainly the 13th would have recounted to Bell the allegation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen also having been reborn as a devil.

[kris]

Thanks Ensapa for starting this discussion, and thanks to this discussion, this is my first time visiting the Nechung sites and all these whiles I didn't pay much attention to this protector.

If they, as you said, started taking down information about Nechung, may be they want people to focus less on the mystical part of Buddhism?

[dsiluvu]

However, Nyingma/Kagyu has always insisted that Nechung is enlightened, which i find it very strange. Also, Trijang Rinpoche and Lelung Rinpoche has mentioned before that he is enlightened in Music Delighting the Ocean of protectors. I find the Dalai Lama's decision to ban Dorje Shugden illogical, but at the same time i also understand that there may be a bigger reason behind that because Trijang Rinpoche has also predicted that before in the same text and told us to not take sides in this matter. Prophetic indeed!

Well, I am not too sure I agree with you. I have not seen any passages anywhere of Kagyu or Nyingma origin that claims that Nechung is enlightened. And if Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche says that, please quote it here to be sure. If Nechung is enlightened, why does DS need to take over and replace him as the Chief of all Dharma Protectors in the prophecy of the Changing of the Guardians.

( http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/universal-protector-of-future-buddhism/ ) So, what you say does not make sense and it does not hold well with conventional understanding of Nechung. If Nechung is enlightened, why does he make so many mistakes in his prophecies. You never hear the same thing about a Dorje Shugden oracle. It does not make sense to me.

Thanks Big Uncle... I was about to say the same thing to Ensapa. Ensapa when you put out such eye raising info, please always state the source so that there is no discrepancy as it would be big news if high Lamas said that. Also Nechung making mistakes again and again, even about Tibet's Independence clearly tells us He is not an Enlightened protector.  A not so good track record of him. Whether this is what some of Ensapa's Nyingma/Kagyu monk friends say, never have I seen it officially written down anywhere. Heck even HHDL himself did not say it but a spirit, yes.

Well Ensapa, perhaps they are taling all the info on Nechung down because of so many mistakes in his prophesies and one huge one is Tibetan independence? Maybe CTA is pulling it out to save their a** because obviously they are not getting any where closer is having a dialog with China. Instead the Dorje Shugden lamas are the one doing the talking! http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/dorje-shugden-lamas-attend-the-tibet-autonomous-region-10th-government-committees-first-conference/

[Blueupali]

To quote Ensapa:

To be honest, i have read in some Nyingma/Kagyu sources which i am unable to recall or find now that says that Nechung is enlightened. Also, you will find that many Nyingma/Kagyu students and practitioners would also think and consider that Nechung is enlightened when you ask them, but i am sure not all as different lineages have different interpretations about Nechung but the Nyingma and Kagyu people that i have met tend to consider him as enlightened. There is a theory where the current Nechung taking trance isnt the real Nechung, but of another being:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, so back to my first point, maybe the websites only want to focus on Buddhas; so Ensapa, I have studied with Kagyus and Nyingmas but never heard any mention of Nechung at all; of course the ones I was with didn't happen to really endorse anything the Dalai Lama ever said--- but you know, I am not saying you are wrong; I am just saying that some Kagyus follow the Dalai Lama and some follow the Karmapa, and some Nyingmas have bought into following the Dalai Lama, while others follow their Nyingma teachers.
  So, I guess it might have to do with whom they follow, more than anything else.
 

[Ensapa]

To quote Ensapa:

To be honest, i have read in some Nyingma/Kagyu sources which i am unable to recall or find now that says that Nechung is enlightened. Also, you will find that many Nyingma/Kagyu students and practitioners would also think and consider that Nechung is enlightened when you ask them, but i am sure not all as different lineages have different interpretations about Nechung but the Nyingma and Kagyu people that i have met tend to consider him as enlightened. There is a theory where the current Nechung taking trance isnt the real Nechung, but of another being:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, so back to my first point, maybe the websites only want to focus on Buddhas; so Ensapa, I have studied with Kagyus and Nyingmas but never heard any mention of Nechung at all; of course the ones I was with didn't happen to really endorse anything the Dalai Lama ever said--- but you know, I am not saying you are wrong; I am just saying that some Kagyus follow the Dalai Lama and some follow the Karmapa, and some Nyingmas have bought into following the Dalai Lama, while others follow their Nyingma teachers.
  So, I guess it might have to do with whom they follow, more than anything else.
 

Now that you have mentioned, yes, some Kagyus/Nyingmas dont even talk about Nechung at all, while some of them do talk about Nechung and even 'request him to eat up all the spirits following them' so yes i can say that it is polarized and confusing at the same time. I have asked for his sadhana text from a contact, but he has refused and said that it was for those with initiations only. Which is odd, as his sadhana was widely available a while ago, back in 2012 but suddenly was pulled out from the net. But I guess it is also this inconsistency that makes the Nechung subject very confusing to tackle.