Author Topic: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...  (Read 5699 times)

DharmaDefender

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Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« on: December 09, 2012, 08:06:06 AM »
I was trawling through the CTAs website when I came across this statement by His Holiness the Dalai Lama in a bunch of messages tweeted in 2010:

Quote
No children of the Dolgyal followers have been expelled from the schools. If in the monasteries the worshippers and non-worshippers of Dolgyal assemble together, it doesn ot go very well with the sanctity of the spiritual bond [that is so very essential in matters of spirituality]. Those who do not worship Dolgyal have all received spiritual teachings from me and those who worship it are the ones who have some problem or disagreement with the Lama from whom they receive teachings. Therefore we are saying that we feel very uncomfortable to be associated with the Dolgyal followers. Apart from that, we have done nothing to throw them out of the Tibetan settlements. I urge all of you to come to India and visit the Tibetan settlements in South India to see for yourselves what the reality is. The Dolgyal followers have established their own separate monastery there and lead their lives like any other Tibetan. Nobody is creating problems for them.


What I found interesting in the bit Ive bolded, especially since His Holiness was filmed saying:

Quote
Recently monasteries have fearlessly expelled Shugden monks where needed. I fully support their actions. I praise them. If monasteries find taking action hard, tell them the Dalai Lama is responsible for this.


Source: 31 secs into the video below, extracted from an Al Jazeera news report, October 2008...TWO YEARS before the tweet conversation above took place

[ Small | Large


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm something smells fishy here...

dsiluvu

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Re: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2012, 03:59:09 PM »
It certainly is smelly! How do they think that just by suddenly a change and twist words around and it will not be spotted?

Also how is it that Dorje Shugden practitioners make the none Shugden practitioners uncomfortable I am curious? And because of this they a not permitted or rather discouraged from mixing due to their religious differences? It is like saying a Buddhist cannot enter the same school as a Hindu or a Muslim because well ehmmm it makes them uncomfortable to be associated with...  it does not go very well with the sanctity of the spiritual bond.

I thought schools are where you teach children to be harmonious no matter what race, creed, religion you are and it the very basis for world peace and religious tolerance, to live in harmony? I came from a school with a mixture of children from all sorts race and religion, there was never an issue of uncomfortableness and the bond was never about spiritual to begin with... I don't think children even think that way until the adults put barriers in their minds.

 Then why don't we just have separate schools all the world based on the individuals' religion? Doesn this sound right? Isn't this statement itself discrimination??? 

Rihanna

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Re: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2012, 06:11:15 PM »
I pity them. In fact, if they make you uncomfortable, isn't that more your problem than their problem? Anyway as a Buddhist, I thought our practice is to always surround ourselves with difficult people. They are called our precious gems. Perhaps people who do not like Dorje Shugden should learn to see us as their precious gems, and we should seem them as ours!

Ensapa

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Re: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2012, 05:31:38 AM »
Is it uncomfortable enough to actually attack and assault Dorje Shugden practitioners and destroy their property while they are at it? There is tolerance and there is utter destruction and utter violation of human rights. You can be uncomfortable with someone you dislike, which is fine, but to force them in a corner, destroy their property, denying them education, denying them basic needs and even having hitlists against alleged Dorje Shugden practitioners, that does not sound like being uncomfortable at all, but rather something close to genocide. How could they expect anyone at all to live with such conditions? The lies given are just not true at all.  Obviously, it is possible to tolerate someone without giving death threats and denying them from buying sundries, so feeling uncomfortable is not an excuse at all for what is happening.

Big Uncle

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Re: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2012, 01:27:07 PM »
Besides the obvious instigation of the CTA, do you know what else is adding salt to the wound? It is the fact that many Tibetan people are really unaware of the reasons behind the ban and are reacting adversely to Dorje Shugden practitioners because of what the Dalai Lama had said.

When you give them facts, they just react negatively and refuse to understand the evidence or the logic behind it. Why do I say this? I just notice the amount of vulgar comments from Tibetans on the Dorje Shugden page. Even when others try to educate them on another perspective, they absolutely refuse to listen. Therefore, it is no surprise that the Tibetans would treat each other so badly. They say that religious beliefs is one of the most potent weapons and this is really obvious within the Tibetan community.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 11:50:05 AM by Big Uncle »

Ensapa

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Re: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2012, 09:11:46 AM »
Besides the obvious instigation of the CTA, do you know what else is adding salt to the wound? It is the fact that many Tibetan people are really unaware of the reasons behind the ban and are reacting adversely to Dorje Shugden practitioners because of what the Dalai Lama had said.

When you give them facts, they just react negatively and refuse to understand the evidence or the logic behind it. Why do I say this? I just notice the amount of vulgar comments from Tibetans on the Dorje Shugden page. Even when others try to educate them on another perspective, they absolutely refuse to listen. Therefore, it is no surprise that the Tibetans would treat each other so badly. They say that religious beliefs is one of the most potent weapons and this is really obvious within the Tibetan community.

The Tibetans have been brought up in such a way that they will blindly follow the Dalai Lama's will no matter what it is. However, what they do not have is that they fail to apply Buddhist teachings at this time and do things without even rationalizing first. I find it quite scary that they are doing things without thinking throughly on whether or not it goes in accord with the Buddhist teachings, or if that is the best way to go about it. A glaring example would be the self immolations. Violence against Dorje Shugden practitioners is just another one to the list. As long as this goes on, I doubt the international community would really want to help them, unless they have other agendas behind.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 11:50:23 AM by Big Uncle »

Namdrol

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Re: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2012, 11:20:46 AM »
The Dalai Lama's Advice Concerning Dorje Shugden Small | Large


How about this video? when dalai lama openly told thousands of people to "EXPEL the Shugden monks".

This is a clear and direct evidence of such a strong order to expel from the Dalai Lama, if the Shugden monks are exeplled, the same goes for children in school with Shugden practising parents too, etc etc.

Maybe the CTA did not give direct order to expel, but, with such strong words from the Dalai Lama, isn't the result obvious?

vajratruth

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Re: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2012, 06:38:15 PM »
When I first heard of Dorje Shugden and before I took up the practice, I researched information on the deity and the ban and the strongest impression I got was how inconsistent the information against Dorje Shugden were, and how the official position of the CTA did not tally with the language they used when speaking about the practice. And all this inconsistencies within the Dalai Lama's own website!

For example in the Dalai Lama's website I found the following statement from the Tibetan Kashag:

"It is the duty of the Tibetan Government-in-exile to encourage compliance with any advice given out of concern for the cause of Tibet, the security of its head of state and the honor of all Tibetan Buddhist traditions including the Geluk tradition. Consequently, it has initiated a programme to be prevailing upon those still following Dolgyal to make a break with it".

That didn't sound like anyone had a choice in the matter. First the statement spells out clearly that the CTA has initiated a "programme" to prevail upon those who do not agree with them and then they go on to say:

"On the contrary, there is a law which lays down that Christians and Muslims should follow their own respective religious doctrines and practices and that the doctrines of other religions, and practices inconsistent with their own character should not be imposed on these religious centres. This is a spiritual tradition that accords with the principles of democracy and freedom"

Very confusing. How can you say that no one should impose their religious practice and belief on another and that is guaranteed by Tibetan law, and at the same time the same law making apparatus is on a campaign to encourage "compliance" (sounds like a threat) and have initiated a "programme" to prevail on people who are still continuing in a religious practice?

And then there is this resolution passed by the Youth Congress:

"6. This execute Committee will likewise announce this policy to all Tibetan monasteries and urge that everyone must abide by the address of the Dalai Lama;
 
7. Together with documents pertaining to this ban on the worship of Dholgyal, this Congress will urge each and every spiritual master, including geshes, that in the interest of the health of the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Independence, they should stop worshipping Dholgyal;
 
8. If anyone in the youth congress membership is found as still worshipping Dholgyal that member will be immediately expelled from Tibetan Youth Congress membership;
 
9. This congress will also urge all other Tibetan organizations not to enroll anyone into their membership who venerates and worships (this native Tibetan Buddhist deity) Dholgyal"


Again, doesn't sound like there much of a choice. Why bother with campaigns, programmes and resolutions if there is no attempt to stamp out a religion practice and by coercion and force? Why go through all that trouble if it were merely and advice by a well meaning Dalai Lama? On the same site, this was said about the Dalai Lama:

"His Holiness has often stated that one of his most important commitments is the promotion of inter-religious understanding and harmony".

How is the CTA supporting the Dalai Lama in the "promotion of inter-religious understanding and harmony" while launching campaigns and programmes to stamp out a religious practice? In other words, its ok to practice Chrisitanity, Islam, Hunduism, Bon with all its spirits and supposedly subdued demons, and any other religion except for the one that the Dalai Lama himself used to practice, and was also a deity propitiated by the Dalai Lama's Tutors and evidently quite a number of monks in established universities going back hundreds of years.

Even without going out of the Dalai Lama's site and published information, the ban already did not sound (or smell) right and that really got me going on more research to dig up evidence of great atrocities against the practitioners of Dorje Shugden. I guess it is very difficult to get a story straight when there is no substance to it other than sheer prejudice which they try to hide but is betrayed by their own language. How silly.
 

Ensapa

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Re: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 11:10:56 AM »
When I first heard of Dorje Shugden and before I took up the practice, I researched information on the deity and the ban and the strongest impression I got was how inconsistent the information against Dorje Shugden were, and how the official position of the CTA did not tally with the language they used when speaking about the practice. And all this inconsistencies within the Dalai Lama's own website!

For example in the Dalai Lama's website I found the following statement from the Tibetan Kashag:

"It is the duty of the Tibetan Government-in-exile to encourage compliance with any advice given out of concern for the cause of Tibet, the security of its head of state and the honor of all Tibetan Buddhist traditions including the Geluk tradition. Consequently, it has initiated a programme to be prevailing upon those still following Dolgyal to make a break with it".

That didn't sound like anyone had a choice in the matter. First the statement spells out clearly that the CTA has initiated a "programme" to prevail upon those who do not agree with them and then they go on to say:

"On the contrary, there is a law which lays down that Christians and Muslims should follow their own respective religious doctrines and practices and that the doctrines of other religions, and practices inconsistent with their own character should not be imposed on these religious centres. This is a spiritual tradition that accords with the principles of democracy and freedom"

Very confusing. How can you say that no one should impose their religious practice and belief on another and that is guaranteed by Tibetan law, and at the same time the same law making apparatus is on a campaign to encourage "compliance" (sounds like a threat) and have initiated a "programme" to prevail on people who are still continuing in a religious practice?

And then there is this resolution passed by the Youth Congress:

"6. This execute Committee will likewise announce this policy to all Tibetan monasteries and urge that everyone must abide by the address of the Dalai Lama;
 
7. Together with documents pertaining to this ban on the worship of Dholgyal, this Congress will urge each and every spiritual master, including geshes, that in the interest of the health of the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Independence, they should stop worshipping Dholgyal;
 
8. If anyone in the youth congress membership is found as still worshipping Dholgyal that member will be immediately expelled from Tibetan Youth Congress membership;
 
9. This congress will also urge all other Tibetan organizations not to enroll anyone into their membership who venerates and worships (this native Tibetan Buddhist deity) Dholgyal"


Again, doesn't sound like there much of a choice. Why bother with campaigns, programmes and resolutions if there is no attempt to stamp out a religion practice and by coercion and force? Why go through all that trouble if it were merely and advice by a well meaning Dalai Lama? On the same site, this was said about the Dalai Lama:

"His Holiness has often stated that one of his most important commitments is the promotion of inter-religious understanding and harmony".

How is the CTA supporting the Dalai Lama in the "promotion of inter-religious understanding and harmony" while launching campaigns and programmes to stamp out a religious practice? In other words, its ok to practice Chrisitanity, Islam, Hunduism, Bon with all its spirits and supposedly subdued demons, and any other religion except for the one that the Dalai Lama himself used to practice, and was also a deity propitiated by the Dalai Lama's Tutors and evidently quite a number of monks in established universities going back hundreds of years.

Even without going out of the Dalai Lama's site and published information, the ban already did not sound (or smell) right and that really got me going on more research to dig up evidence of great atrocities against the practitioners of Dorje Shugden. I guess it is very difficult to get a story straight when there is no substance to it other than sheer prejudice which they try to hide but is betrayed by their own language. How silly.

When I first did research on Dorje Shugden before I 'embraced' it, I realize that he was misrepresented and it was very clear that whatever accusations made against him were false and it was pretty obvious to me. I mean, I'm for the Dalai Lama like anyone else, but its just that I find the whole thing really odd and fishy. Then, there were the fanatics of the Dalai Lama who just went over the top with the whole ban thing and that really turned me off as it was clearly not logical behavior. If the ban has such an effect on people, for sure it must be negative somehow...

prodorjeshugden

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Re: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2017, 07:08:28 PM »
Yes indeed something smells fishy.
It seems like whenever someone from the CTA speaks the voice is channeled down the wrong end of the alimentary canal, so instead of useful words coming out trash comes out.
The video proves that the CTA doesn't even know what they are saying anymore, it is as if their mouth moves b itself. Whenever the CTA tries to give facts they are most oftenly lies that are used to cover up other lies.

I really hope that the CTA will stop being a hypocrite and start speaking the truth about the ban instead of trying to cover it up.

SabS

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Re: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2017, 12:53:57 AM »
Fishy? I think it is actually outright lies or self delusional declarations.

"Those who do not worship Dolgyal have all received spiritual teachings from me and those who worship it are the ones who have some problem or disagreement with the Lama from whom they receive teachings." From this statement one can note that the Dalai Lama is way off. He said that the Shugden practitioners are the ones having problems or disagreement with their Lamas...Huh? It is actually the opposite as Shugden practitioners have the loyalty to remain steadfast in their practice which had been given by their Gurus, even when facing danger to their lives & abuses. This is called "Guru Devotion", the most important practice in Tibetan Buddhism.

Then the Dalai Lama goes on to say "Therefore we are saying that we feel very uncomfortable to be associated with the Dolgyal followers. Apart from that, we have done nothing to throw them out of the Tibetan settlements." Urmmm excuse me...the video shows him endorsing the expelling of Shugden Lamas from their respective monastery because of their chosen practice. It is actually the Anti Shugdens that are abusive and vulgarly defames pure lineage teachings and attained Masters. I really am amazed at the Dalai Lama and CTA for believing they can get away with contradictory statements when nowadays everything can be captured and proven in videos/audios.

And why do the Shudgen Monks have to be expelled? In Buddhism, we are taught to be kind to even the hell beings, what more monks who practiced honesty & loyalty. It really reflects badly on the Dalai Lama's students and followers when he couldn't trust them to be in the same place with Shugden practitioners. Are they so mentally weak that they can be influenced by the Shugden practitioners? All in all, I would say that the Dalai Lama's actions shows up the quality of his students and followers. Sad really.

grandmapele

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Re: Hmmmmm something smells fishy here...
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2017, 03:45:59 AM »
The damage done by this division is really terrible. I was just sharing about Dorje Shugden with a friend and the words she said was pretty sad both for many people who needs the dharma and for Buddhism as a whole. She said that the Dalai Lama should not have done what he did and it is making the situation very confusing for those looking into Buddhism or spirituality as a whole. Because of that she was discouraged by her family from associating with Buddhism, specifically Tibetan Buddhism. In their opinion, Buddhism is full of schism and divide  which, in their opinion was why it couldn't really flourish in its birth place.

I'm sure my friend who is well read and is a thinker will work out the issue. She is not put off by the controversy but the situation makes it that much more difficult for her to find out more and to go for teachings. But for those with lesser merits, how can they connect? Just my worrying thoughts.