Author Topic: Podcast translation  (Read 9871 times)

Lineageholder

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Podcast translation
« on: January 08, 2010, 12:41:42 PM »
Dear friends,

Would a Tibetan speaker kindly listen to this:

http://www.vot.org/votfritib.mp3  (from the Voice of Tibet website)

and give an English translation?  Apparently the Dalai Lama said something about Dorje Shugden recently, presumably at his teachings in Bodhgaya.

Thanks for your help!

Lineageholder

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2010, 08:22:48 AM »
Dear Trinley Kalsang,

Firstly, I prostrate to all your work to protect the Buddhadharma, your site is outstanding.  I'd be very grateful if sometime you could give some perspective on the 'Yellow Book'.

Thanks for the information about this podcast, is that all the Dalai Lama said?  (although it's a big 'all'!)

His lies become even more treacherous.  How would Trijang or Ling Rinpoches ever agree with the Dalai Lama's politics?  He is completely without shame and it shows he is prepared to stop at nothing to accomplish his selfish goals.

LosangKhyentse

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http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/news/international/583-his-holiness-the-dalai-lama-defends-his-stance-on-dolgyal-worship


His Holiness The Dalai Lama defends his stance on Dolgyal worship

Before conferring a long life empowerment to an audience of 50,000 followers in Bodhgaya yesterday, Tibetan spiritual leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama spoke briefly about the Dolgyal controversy.

He advised his devotees to resist the worship of Dolgyal (Shugden) as a potentially divisive practice, asking those who propitiate Dolgyal not to receive his tantric initiation, which he claimed would be "harmful to the teacher-disciple relationship."


His Holiness detailed the lengthy historical conflict between Tibetan Dalai Lamas and the Dolgyal deity, citing the 5th and 13th Dalai Lamas as having spoken out against Shugden as a threat "to the welfare of beings in general, and the Tibetan government headed by the Dalai Lamas in particular".

He explained to his Chinese devotees that," In Taiwan and China, the Dolgyal followers are tying to have influence with the help and support of Chinese government. They use it [their practice] as a tool against me, claiming that the Dalai Lama was censoring them. When some Tibetan monasteries tried to stop the practice for a while, the Chinese government didn't allow them, and then slowly it became a political issue".

On the matter of Dolgyal followers' right to religious freedom, His Holiness stated, "actually it [Dolgyal worship] is unrelated to religion, because in the Buddha's commentaries and teachings, except for the worship of Dharma protectors like Mahakala, the worship of deities is not mentioned. It is wrong to venerate house and mountain deities more than Buddha."


In the end, he declared, "I have explained the reasons why I am against the veneration of Shugden and given my sources in a very detailed manner. It is my duty to tell the real story. It is up to you to accept it or not."

The Tibetan leader and head of the Gelugpa sect asked foreigners in the audience to research and analyze the facts [about the Dolgyal controversy] to better understand the conflict.

N.B. This has been translated from the Tibetan original report. If there is any discrepancy between this and the Tibetan version, please consider the Tibetan authoritative and final.


From THE TIBET POST international.
Last Updated ( Saturday, 09 January 2010 17:52 )

Small being

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2010, 08:45:24 PM »
Thanks for posting this translation. Gosh, it is so true what it say in the WSS book 'A Great Deception' that in the world today, there is no-one who is more powerfully deceiving than this DL. What a shame!

Lineageholder

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2010, 10:11:47 PM »
Thanks to everyone for their posts and for all the information.

I totally agree with Small being - what a shame!

wang

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2010, 02:30:13 AM »
"He explained to his Chinese devotees that," In Taiwan and China, the Dolgyal followers are tying to have influence with the help and support of Chinese government. They use it [their practice] as a tool against me, claiming that the Dalai Lama was censoring them. When some Tibetan monasteries tried to stop the practice for a while, the Chinese government didn't allow them, and then slowly it became a political issue"."

This is an disappointing statement.  Being in China for years I did not observe any Gelukpa lama(be in either party, the practicing or not-practicing one) put emphasis on the protector conflict, they simply focus on Lamrim and the others Gelukpa teachings.  The government is low profile on that also.

Recently, there was some development though:
- a close disciple of Dalai Lama in Taiwan started 'duplicating' those agianst-protector statements in the China Gelukpa comunity.
- a pro-protector party based in Taiwan make use of it to justify their legitimacy as authentic Gelukpa, covering up other problems they have.

"then slowly it became a political issue"- It ws a political issue by origin, someone tried to leverage this political issue in the China Gelukpa community for whatever reason(which for a lot Gelukpa, not even aware of this conflict)...quite frustracting..

emptymountains

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2010, 01:14:27 PM »
Broadcaster: During his teaching in Bodh Gaya, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the jewel of all, said to have received permission and support from his two tutors to give up his worship of Dholgyal (Dorje Shugden). In this regard our report Pasang Dhonden explains you:

Pasang: Before His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the supreme leader of Tibetan politics and religion, granted ordination of Bikshus and empowerment of Avalokiteshvara in the morning to devotees from twenty thousands to thirty thousands, he gave instruction and introduction on Dorje Shugden. At that time he explained clearly on the distorted information among the public:

Dalai Lama: Some are saying that the Dalai Lama has changed his mind after the demise of his two tutors. When they were alive, I explained them everything about my investigating and renouncing the worship of Dholgyal. They agreed. Ling Rinpoche said it was very good and had been very clean. Ling had no connection at all. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche said that there was no mistaken in my way of investigating, and that it must have a purpose and reason. When I renounced the worship comfortably, I have informed [my] two tutors. They agreed and I was granted permission and support. [there is a report] as if I have changed my mind after two tutors passed away. The reality is what I have just said.

When people in Tibet aware of my ban on worshipping Dholgyal, there is saying that that this is not the intention of the Dalai Lama; the Dalai Lama imposed a ban in order to appease Nyingma; and that this is politics. It is no true. My intention is pure. Therefore, I have to explain when the decision I took with pure intention is being distorted.

Be it in China or in Taiwan. Similarly in China, a section of Dholgyal follower are seem to be adopting many methods and efforts these days. In particular, Chinese government found the ban imposed by the Dalai Lama as necessity, and she provides an especial support to Dholgyal followers. Monasteries in Tibet which gave up the worship meanwhile are encouraged not to give it up, but to worship. It is little bit conflicting. It became a political issue. Therefore I thought to explain clearly to you, Chinese Dharma friends here.

Whether it be in it in India, or in Tibet, majority, however, believes my explanation through exhaustive investigation. The public’s stand is wonderful. Thank you! As for the monks of [Gelukpa] monastic establishment, you are very good. It is different matter for few; they remain mischievous. It is different matter. Majority found reason in my statement, and listened and appreciated it. Thank you!

Whether you worship a deity, a demon, or an evil spirit; or whatever you worship, it is in your hand. It is freedom. Nothing is there. However, if you worship without knowing the matter, I have a responsibility to tell you that this is the matter. Therefore I am telling you. It is up to you to think whether you want to listen or not, after I said. I have known many things. It is my mistake if I don’t tell you what I knew. If you don’t listen after I said, it is your loss.

emptymountains

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 08:17:01 PM »

wang

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2010, 02:06:59 AM »
TrinleyKalsang said “It's quite disappointing, he's claiming he got permission from both his teachers to ban the Dolgyal practice.”

And the Broadcaster said : “During his teaching in Bodh Gaya, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the jewel of all, said to have received permission and support from his two tutors to give up his worship of Dholgyal (Dorje Shugden). “

What are the exact wordings in the speech?  While ‘ban’ means an action towards others(which is new to me) and ‘to give up his worship’ is a personal matter between Dalai Lama and his guru(which is old story), they have different implications...

Lineageholder

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2010, 09:57:00 AM »
If the Dalai Lama is being ambiguous, then he shouldn't be surprised if everyone reports that he said that he had permission from his Tutors to ban the practice, which would be clearly absurd! 

If this is widely disseminated, giving clear reasons why this couldn't be the case, it would definitely damage his credibility and further reinforce how much he is prepared to lie to achieve his goals.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 09:58:53 AM by Lineageholder »

a friend

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2010, 01:41:55 AM »
HI friends, sorry not to have said anything about this before. I was (I still am) without internet at home for a while. So I won't be long in commenting the Dalai Lama's doings at BodhGaya.

Even though it's quite late to talk about his Gurus' permission to abandon the practice almost 30 years after their demise, since it would be a personal matter among them, of course it's not our business. There are all sorts of practices in our religion, and not all of them are suitable for everyone. Such is the compassion of Lord Buddha, that he gave so many teachings in accord with our different diverse types of mind. So if the Dalai Lama discovered at forty something that the practice was not suitable for his mind, fine.

Now, to try to tell the world that our holy ones gave him permission to do what he is doing, I really don't find the words to define such conduct. Except that it confirms what several people have said here, that the Lamas think that the Dalai Lama is sick.

In the negated hypothesis that they gave him permission to give up the practice of the holy Protector, who in his or her mind woud even imagine that they gave him permission to start persecuting, segregating and ostracizing people, Tibetans of all walks of life, monks, nuns and lay people alike, or gave him permission to condemn his own Gurus, saying that THEY ARE WRONG, WRONG, as he dared say and anybody can see him, in the famous interview of Swiss Television?

He doesn't seem to be in possession of his mind.

I agree that we should start writing again ... although the Mahabodhi Society being in cohootz with him and having their own problems does seem not enough.

I wonder if we should not write again letters addressed to Indian authorities. (Without insults, please, if we want to produce some favorable reaction). A letter to everybody, members of Parliament, MInisters, we should look if there is a Ministryof Religion, and of course, including the Indian Court that holds the case against him. Since this clearly violates freedom of religion and the free worshipping of deities.
Do we have the addresses?

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2010, 12:52:02 PM »
Of course that is not the case the Dalai lama's teachers okayed his ban of Dorje Shugden, but if they did, why didn't Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche during their lifetimes not go all the way with the ban?

Why did Trijang Rinpoche practice something he feel should be banned. Doesn't make sense.

Why did Trijang Rinpoche compose a volume on the full practice of Dorje Shugden which is on the homepage of this website ready to download and print out (thank u webmaster).

Why didn't Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche write statements, make announcements to stop practicing Dorje Shugden. Their root master kyabje Pabongka practiced Dorje Shugden and why would they go against their own teacher?

Many inconsistencies if we think slightly deeper.

The protests, writings, websites against the ban must have some affect on the Dalai lama it seems from his most recent statements.

a friend

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2010, 01:32:34 AM »
Thom, thank you for the addresses. Trinley Kelsang, please give us some lineaments that we can compose a proper letter to send to those addresses. I think it's important to write to the Indian authorities. The Western Press is important too no doubt. Let's do it.

emptymountains

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Re: Podcast translation
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 10:57:15 PM »
Video of DL speaking about Dorje Shugden in Bodhgaya (in Tibetan):

Quote
http://www.tibetonline.tv/videos/105/hh-the-dalai-lama-talk-on-dhogyal-shugden-in-bodhgaya
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 10:05:41 AM by emptymountains »