Author Topic: Finding a piece of truth  (Read 4100 times)

negra orquida

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 205
Finding a piece of truth
« on: April 07, 2012, 01:01:54 PM »
One day Mara, the Evil One, was travelling through the villages of India with his attendants. he saw a man doing walking meditation whose face was lit up on wonder. The man had just discovered something on the ground in front of him. Mara’s attendant asked what that was and Mara replied, "A piece of truth."

"Doesn’t this bother you when someone finds a piece of truth, O Evil One?" his attendant asked. "No," Mara replied. "Right after this, they usually make a belief out of it."


Any idea what is this story about?? Mara is not bothered when someone finds a piece of truth, because they'd make a belief out of it.  Could it mean that if someone finds 1 piece of truth but not the whole truth and wholly believes in that 1 truth, then that could be detrimental to the person?

Big Uncle

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1995
Re: Finding a piece of truth
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 01:10:43 PM »
One day Mara, the Evil One, was travelling through the villages of India with his attendants. he saw a man doing walking meditation whose face was lit up on wonder. The man had just discovered something on the ground in front of him. Mara’s attendant asked what that was and Mara replied, "A piece of truth."

"Doesn’t this bother you when someone finds a piece of truth, O Evil One?" his attendant asked. "No," Mara replied. "Right after this, they usually make a belief out of it."


Any idea what is this story about?? Mara is not bothered when someone finds a piece of truth, because they'd make a belief out of it.  Could it mean that if someone finds 1 piece of truth but not the whole truth and wholly believes in that 1 truth, then that could be detrimental to the person?

A truth is the truth. There's nothing that could make it otherwise. However, a whole belief system that will spring out of that one truth and that will be followed zealously by others who may not discover the same truth because they are fixated by dogma, rituals and so forth.

The truth can only be discovered by oneself with the help of dogma, rituals and the like. Dogma, rituals and others are meant to guide and it in itself is not the truth. Many religious zealots do not realize this and rigidly follow their beliefs to the point where their actions become unreligious and sometimes uncouth, in the name of the truth.

hope rainbow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 947
Re: Finding a piece of truth
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 02:26:36 PM »
A truth is the truth. There's nothing that could make it otherwise. However, a whole belief system that will spring out of that one truth and that will be followed zealously by others who may not discover the same truth because they are fixated by dogma, rituals and so forth.

The truth can only be discovered by oneself with the help of dogma, rituals and the like. Dogma, rituals and others are meant to guide and it in itself is not the truth. Many religious zealots do not realize this and rigidly follow their beliefs to the point where their actions become unreligious and sometimes uncouth, in the name of the truth.

Thanks BU,

So if i may continue from what you are saying:
(a) dogma is not the Truth,
(b) but is taken as the Truth ignorantly by some (*),
(c) and then imposed onto others,
(d) with the result of many of these "others" to seriously doubt the dogma (**),
(e) and by extension the very idea of a "Truth".

(*) maybe because it is the aspect that reveled the Truth to them.

(**)and rightly so in fact, for the mistake of the method for the truth can be seen by logic for those that have not had a glimpse at what lies being the method...

My thoughts:

Dogma is an affirmation that has not been validated, it is a view that is imposed onto others by force.
Validation is achieved by ensuring the authenticity of the source of the object of the dogma and by realizing its veracity through analysis, logic, inference and personal experience.
Validation of a dogma = faith.
De-validation of a dogma = doubt.
When the dogma finds a validation, when it is not imposed onto me, it ceases to be a dogma, it becomes a faith, it becomes a method (not an end - and not the Truth - for the Truth is a result beyond any method).
But it is still a dogma for those that have not concluded to its veracity.

Example: God created the world.
Yet when one has realized this dogma and attained faith, then it is no more a dogma, and progress on the spiritual path may be made.
The path will be christian or Muslim or Jewish.

Example: karma and rebirth.
If imposed onto people that do not believe in karma and rebirth, it is dogma to them.
Yet when one has realized this dogma and attained faith, then it is no more a dogma, and progress on the spiritual path may be made.
The path will be Buddhist or Hindu.

Example: enlightenment.
If imposed onto people that do not believe in enlightenment, it is dogma to them.
Yet when one has realized this dogma and attained faith, then it is no more a dogma, and progress on the spiritual path may be made.
The path will be Buddhist.

When the result of the spiritual path is achieved, the method becomes obsolete to the achiever.

The "Truth" - I call it sunyata, I call it compassion - must be so hard to grasp without guidance, without a Guru, without merits and practice, without discipline.... It must be so easy to fall back into a belief that is just one aspect of the Truth, and then hold onto it tight out of "spiritual vertigo".

Is this detrimental to the person? I don't know. But it could be detrimental to others if this belief turns into a dogma by being imposed on others without benefiting them.

Jessie Fong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: Finding a piece of truth
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2012, 05:46:51 AM »
Truth can roughly be deemed to be the true or actual state of a matter.  The truth is the truth - if it is not the whole truth, then it is not true for that matter.  If you find partial truth in a situation it cannot be considered as finding the truth for it is then not whole.

Once you have investigated and realised the truth, you believe it to be so.  Then you have unshakeable faith in the truth that you have found.

KhedrubGyatso

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
    • Email
Re: Finding a piece of truth
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 04:53:16 AM »
There are many truths out there depending on its basis. Eg scientific truths, empirical truths, truths handed down by tradition, belief systems  etc.
The realization of any truth is a personal one. However even if one has  such experience, it will still need to be meditated upon vigorously for a period of time in order to stabilize it until it reaches the point of irreversibility and one embodies it. Mara is not bothered probably thinking most will not  discover the real truth or ultimate truth according to Buddhist view, reach that exalted state  of mind and those followers will only be distracted by the external form of it . Hence although there is only  one ultimate  truth , but the beliefs can be many according to the different perception of the followers and their karma.

Positive Change

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: Finding a piece of truth
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 05:14:18 AM »
A truth is the truth. There's nothing that could make it otherwise. However, a whole belief system that will spring out of that one truth and that will be followed zealously by others who may not discover the same truth because they are fixated by dogma, rituals and so forth.

The truth can only be discovered by oneself with the help of dogma, rituals and the like. Dogma, rituals and others are meant to guide and it in itself is not the truth. Many religious zealots do not realize this and rigidly follow their beliefs to the point where their actions become unreligious and sometimes uncouth, in the name of the truth.

Thanks BU,

So if i may continue from what you are saying:
(a) dogma is not the Truth,
(b) but is taken as the Truth ignorantly by some (*),
(c) and then imposed onto others,
(d) with the result of many of these "others" to seriously doubt the dogma (**),
(e) and by extension the very idea of a "Truth".

(*) maybe because it is the aspect that reveled the Truth to them.

(**)and rightly so in fact, for the mistake of the method for the truth can be seen by logic for those that have not had a glimpse at what lies being the method...

My thoughts:

Dogma is an affirmation that has not been validated, it is a view that is imposed onto others by force.
Validation is achieved by ensuring the authenticity of the source of the object of the dogma and by realizing its veracity through analysis, logic, inference and personal experience.
Validation of a dogma = faith.
De-validation of a dogma = doubt.
When the dogma finds a validation, when it is not imposed onto me, it ceases to be a dogma, it becomes a faith, it becomes a method (not an end - and not the Truth - for the Truth is a result beyond any method).
But it is still a dogma for those that have not concluded to its veracity.

Example: God created the world.
Yet when one has realized this dogma and attained faith, then it is no more a dogma, and progress on the spiritual path may be made.
The path will be christian or Muslim or Jewish.

Example: karma and rebirth.
If imposed onto people that do not believe in karma and rebirth, it is dogma to them.
Yet when one has realized this dogma and attained faith, then it is no more a dogma, and progress on the spiritual path may be made.
The path will be Buddhist or Hindu.

Example: enlightenment.
If imposed onto people that do not believe in enlightenment, it is dogma to them.
Yet when one has realized this dogma and attained faith, then it is no more a dogma, and progress on the spiritual path may be made.
The path will be Buddhist.

When the result of the spiritual path is achieved, the method becomes obsolete to the achiever.

The "Truth" - I call it sunyata, I call it compassion - must be so hard to grasp without guidance, without a Guru, without merits and practice, without discipline.... It must be so easy to fall back into a belief that is just one aspect of the Truth, and then hold onto it tight out of "spiritual vertigo".

Is this detrimental to the person? I don't know. But it could be detrimental to others if this belief turns into a dogma by being imposed on others without benefiting them.

Thank you BU and HR,

It certainly clears up this piece of truth! ;) So in conclusion, may I assume the following based on a mathematical equation:

The truth IS the truth which is the constant, however the belief is the variable because its stems from the perception of an individual and depending on how well that person can perceive or is willing to perceive forms what we call the different beliefs.

But then again, if one's perception is such that one believes the truth to be such a way so much so it becomes the "truth" for them... in their perception it IS the truth. How then does one quantify which is the truth especially to that particular person?

yontenjamyang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 733
    • Email
Re: Finding a piece of truth
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 06:12:42 AM »
One day Mara, the Evil One, was travelling through the villages of India with his attendants. he saw a man doing walking meditation whose face was lit up on wonder. The man had just discovered something on the ground in front of him. Mara’s attendant asked what that was and Mara replied, "A piece of truth."

"Doesn’t this bother you when someone finds a piece of truth, O Evil One?" his attendant asked. "No," Mara replied. "Right after this, they usually make a belief out of it."


Any idea what is this story about?? Mara is not bothered when someone finds a piece of truth, because they'd make a belief out of it.  Could it mean that if someone finds 1 piece of truth but not the whole truth and wholly believes in that 1 truth, then that could be detrimental to the person?

The replies from BU, PC, KG and HR sums it up very well. I would like to point out 2 points.

First it is stated in the topic as "a piece of truth"; denoting not the entire truth. It is like if the truth is an elephant and "a piece of truth" is only part of the elephant for example the trunk. Hence the meditator has not seen the entire truth. Based on the the trunk the meditator belief the truth to be the trunk. The trunk is the elephant.

Secondly, "Right after this, they usually make a belief out of it". From this glimpse of "a piece of truth" the meditator make a belief out of it; denoting the meditator belief the truth to be the trunk. Mara is confident that the meditator will not see the entire elephant as the truth as most would not.

This is the karma of the beings of this age. Even when we are close to seeing the truth, we only see "a piece" of it and worst; belief that it is the entire truth. Hence Mara's confidence.

Q

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 557
Re: Finding a piece of truth
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 06:01:39 PM »
One day Mara, the Evil One, was travelling through the villages of India with his attendants. he saw a man doing walking meditation whose face was lit up on wonder. The man had just discovered something on the ground in front of him. Mara’s attendant asked what that was and Mara replied, "A piece of truth."

"Doesn’t this bother you when someone finds a piece of truth, O Evil One?" his attendant asked. "No," Mara replied. "Right after this, they usually make a belief out of it."


Any idea what is this story about?? Mara is not bothered when someone finds a piece of truth, because they'd make a belief out of it.  Could it mean that if someone finds 1 piece of truth but not the whole truth and wholly believes in that 1 truth, then that could be detrimental to the person?

Yes, I believe finding a piece of truth, but without transcendental wisdom to understand it people will build a whole form of believe system which usually surround their wrong view... this will not bring any benefit to anyone. In this story's case, Mara is not bothered because whatever that's built up from wrong view even if the very core is a small piece of truth, the out come will eventually bend to his way... so no threat there for him...

However, I have a small question here which I hope someone can help me with. The Buddha gave 84,000 teachings which all leads to liberation. Does the one piece of truth mentioned here actually equals to one of the Buddha's teachings or a very small part of one of the Buddha teachings?