Author Topic: Lying Takes Many Forms  (Read 13268 times)

WoselTenzin

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Lying Takes Many Forms
« on: July 23, 2011, 06:47:52 AM »
Lying takes many forms:-

1.  Outright lying which is self explanatory
2.  Keeping quite when the truth should be spoken
3.  Not admitting to a lie committed
4.  Twisting words to divert attention from the lie when confronted
5.  Beating around the bush and bring up past issues to cover the current lie

Whichever form it takes it is still a lie.  More "experienced" liars use method 3, 4 and 5 above. Methods 3, 4 and 5 are very serious as it uses a lie to try cover up another lie.  The person who is lying usually knows exactly what they are doing but unless you choose to confront or even threaten to expose them, they will always try to bull dose their way through. 

From a Dharma point of view, what would be the best course of action to take when we encounter liars?  Keeping quite or letting the person  who is lying get away with their lies is not an option because it would be not different from colluding with the person who is lying and we would be just as guilty.

Roberto

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2011, 08:44:19 AM »
Most of the time people do not even know they are being lied to until it's too late, or after the fact so to catch the liar in the act you need to be pretty sharp.

Having said that even after the lie has been noticed most people do nothing and just be wary of them when dealing with them in future.

To really make change in a liar you have to be able to affect them in a way that makes them feel it. But how many people have that type of effect on people. Most of the time the liar won't feel a thing from long term habituation.

Then I guess time to resort to the physical "influence" if you know what I mean.

triesa

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2011, 05:06:16 PM »
If "keeping quite when the truth should be spoken" is also a form of lying,  what about when we come across a situation that we really  can't be so direct and tell the truth, say we want to encourage the person to continue doing what he is doing, and we tell him that he is doing a great job, (though he is not that great), does this constitute lying or it is just a form of skillful means?

dondrup

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2011, 06:25:54 PM »
If "keeping quite when the truth should be spoken" is also a form of lying,  what about when we come across a situation that we really  can't be so direct and tell the truth, say we want to encourage the person to continue doing what he is doing, and we tell him that he is doing a great job, (though he is not that great), does this constitute lying or it is just a form of skillful means?

It is clearly a case of lying because we lied  However, we have also performed an virtuous act because our intention is to encourage him.

WoselTenzin

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 03:21:15 PM »
The lying here refer to lying to avoid responsibility or with the motivation to deceive others and for all other negative motivations.  If we tell a white lie with a good motivation to encourage others or to save a life then, it does not fall under the category of lying. 

For eg if you saw a dog walking in a direction and you told a dog catcher that it went another direction to save the dog's life, then this does not constitute lying.

However, if you have stolen something and when confronted you said you did not, that is lying.

I hope the above answers your question, Triesa and Dondrup.

Big Uncle

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 04:41:39 PM »
Lying is such a powerful way to lose people's respect and destroy what little credibility people have towards us. We can lie towards others but we can't lie to ourselves and especially towards our karma.  Like all habits and delusions, lying can become habitual and uncontrollable if we hone it. Our lies can be very destructive and it can hurt many people especially when we cannot control it.

We may hone our lies to the point where many people are fooled but no matter how much we hone, our lies will eventually be uncovered because not everybody is stupid. We will one day come across people who will be smarter than us. Habitual liars find it hard to give a straight answer and every statement is always blurred and it could be taken either way. They cause much miscommunication without even meaning to and because of the excessive lying, they become lonely and some would even become insane.

Forcing ourselves to face consequences of our actions without resorting to lying would be a major step to re-habituate ourselves. On another level, we force ourselves to give a straight and definitive answer. However, i think the key towards lying would be to be courageous to face consequences of our actions of body, speech and mind. So, we tell the truth, come what may, especially if the truth would benefit or save someone.

Positive Change

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 06:01:56 PM »
Lying takes many forms:-

1.  Outright lying which is self explanatory
2.  Keeping quite when the truth should be spoken
3.  Not admitting to a lie committed
4.  Twisting words to divert attention from the lie when confronted
5.  Beating around the bush and bring up past issues to cover the current lie

Whichever form it takes it is still a lie.  More "experienced" liars use method 3, 4 and 5 above. Methods 3, 4 and 5 are very serious as it uses a lie to try cover up another lie.  The person who is lying usually knows exactly what they are doing but unless you choose to confront or even threaten to expose them, they will always try to bull dose their way through. 

From a Dharma point of view, what would be the best course of action to take when we encounter liars?  Keeping quite or letting the person  who is lying get away with their lies is not an option because it would be not different from colluding with the person who is lying and we would be just as guilty.

Whatever the "methods"... lying is lying and the very root "cause" is one's ego... of wanting to look good, not wanting to look bad, not wanting the attention directed at us when we are clearly wrong, etc.

Whichever way we look at it, in reality it stems from a very basic selfish emotion - self preservation. We are all guilty of this in some shape of form and in varying degrees.... however my question is, does it actually make a difference whether it is a big lie or a small lie? Or is the lie a lie no matter what and the negative karma that is associated with it is the same? Sure there is what we like to call a white lie where our motivation is a good one and does not hurt anyone. Who is the judge of that? Surely a lie has repercussions blatant or white.

Reena Searl

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2011, 12:51:39 AM »
To me, lying not only loose respect , it also a form of  irresponsibility act, to push the responsibility to others and sad to say that frequent lier may not even aware that he/she is a habitual lier. Once become a habit, it can be harmful and damaging.




diamond girl

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2011, 08:37:25 PM »
People who commit lies to hurt others or to protect themselves at the expense of others are just bad. It is also bad when one lies to oneself. I have noticed people who lie, also lie to themselves and have no integrity in their character. I have lied and this has been done when I have lied to myself and thus avoided being responsible for important matters. And when confronted I lied to cover up. Lies do not bring good consequences. It is very bad karma.

pgdharma

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2011, 01:51:46 PM »
When we lie and others discovered that we lie, we will loose respect. When one makes mistakes, it is better to own up, apologize and take responsibility of the mistakes then to cover up with lies.

We can lie to others but can we lie to ourselves? How will we feel? Is our conscious clear? Are we guilty? Having this thoughts in us is not good or healthy. Thus we should by all means refrain from telling lies as it will bring more harm to us and is also bad karma.

WoselTenzin

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2011, 09:55:22 AM »
When we lie and others discovered that we lie, we will loose respect. When one makes mistakes, it is better to own up, apologize and take responsibility of the mistakes then to cover up with lies.


When we slip and make a mistake whether it is lying or otherwise, we should immediately regret, admit our mistake and take responsibility by apologising and making up for it.  We must be courageous enough to face up to our mistakes even if it means we have to undertake some sort of repercussion or punishment. 

It is inevitable that we can sometimes slip but we must immediately make amends as mentioned above and not justify and make excuses to cover our mistake. Doing so will harm ourselves and others and perpetuate our negative tendencies even further.

By regretting, taking responsibility and making amends for our mistakes, we can cut this habitual negative tendency and train ourselves not to repeat the same mistake and cause harm to others and ourselves again.

 

biggyboy

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2012, 06:16:28 PM »
From a Dharma point of view, what would be the best course of action to take when we encounter liars?  Keeping quite or letting the person  who is lying get away with their lies is not an option because it would be not different from colluding with the person who is lying and we would be just as guilty.

Lying is lying be it small or big.  One should own up and make amend.  Not to continue covering up.  Be truthful and face it for it is just that moment rather than to carry on with the lies and keep covering up.  Till when? Anyway am tired of covering up if am that person. 

If we know about the lie, one should speaks up not to hurt or condemn the lair but is to help him.  Likewise, both parties will have negative karma.  If the person who knows about the lie and not speaking up, he/she is at fault too for encouraging the liar to continue lying and covering up.  Isn't this negative karma too for encouraging it?   Similarly, the liar himself.   One should repent and make amend to not lying again if he believes in karma.

Jessie Fong

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2012, 04:23:52 AM »
To lie is to deliberately tell something that is not the truth.

If we come across someone who has told a lie, it would be better to talk to him to tell him what is wrong and ask him to set the record straight.  We cannot allow this lie to continue, not knowing how many people will get hurt along the way.

Like biggyboy rightly said : Lying is lying,be it small or big. 

The liar should not only be made aware of his lie, he should admit it, and make amends.

Powerful words:
- I am sorry
- You are right

Ensapa

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2012, 06:48:19 AM »
When it comes to lying, there are actually many ways and many conditions that can also make us lie, or cause something to constitute as a lie. In essence, it is basically an action or a speech that is created and designed to deceive others. We can be telling the truth at the wrong time to distract people from the real issue, and that can be lying as well. Deception can come in many, many different forms and going round the bush and bringing up the past is just a cover because it is either that person is trying to deceive you that those are the real reason for the problem, or that they are deceiving themselves that it is the problem and to them, they are just explaining to you the reasons. If its the former, it would be easier to remedy as compared to the latter. Self deception is the hardest and ultimate form of lying as we create the negative karma of lying day and night and to every single person we meet or talk to.

Self deception is often done when someone is unable to face a certain situation and they need a padding or cover for their weaknesses. As a result, they are no longer able to tell the truth and the false, and it develops into habits and it creates a huge dent in the way their mind operates. This is why some people who have been through traumatic experiences tend to have a mind that is a bit...broken as they try very hard to deny what is happening but the more they do, the more they damage themselves as they know it is not the truth. The western psychologists have a very fancy word for this set of disorders, they call it borderline personality disorder which is basically a dysfunctional mind that has a psychological flaw that prevents ordinary human interactions.

I have a friend that lies constantly and is extremely inconsistent with what he says and what he does. He would say one thing, a few days later he would say something different that entirely contradicts what he said a few days earlier. He tells me he is lonely and has no friends but as time passes by he tells me of his other friends. It was very very frustrating and it was scary to be with someone who is unable to just get straight to the point. I confronted him for lying and he threw a hissy fit and insisted that he was telling the truth and that i was delusional when there were so much inconsistencies with his statements. It was horrible to have a friend like this as there was no way to know what can be trusted and what not. When he lies, he sounds like he really and honestly believes in it because he is lying to himself.

I described his condition to a psychologist friend of mine, and he said it sounded like borderline personality disorder...seems like he's been living in this mode of self denial for so long that his mind is no longer able to operate without lying to himself and only listening to pleasant words and throwing a fit when exposed or hearing something difficult. That to me, is the ultimate form of lying.

buddhalovely

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Re: Lying Takes Many Forms
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2012, 07:39:35 AM »
Lying takes several forms and is justified by the liar for so many different reasons. Perhaps one of the most used forms of lying is exaggeration. Most of the time these lies are told to impress someone or to gain "one up" on the person to whom he is speaking. Fish stories are great examples of exaggeration at its best.

Greed causes many people to lie. Obvious reasons might be for monetary gain, but many liars do it to obtains status and prestige for themselves or for others. Mothers, for example, sometimes lie and cheat in order to help their daughters become cheerleaders or models. These are sad stories indeed, because the mother is perpetuating the lying by showing the daughter that honesty does not always "pay".

One of the most insidious forms of lying is compulsive lying. This type of deception is so difficult for most people to understand. The compulsive liar will lie when there is no reason. In fact, in most cases the truth would serve them better. It is incomprehensible that there are men and women who actually enjoy lying and feel that it makes them superior to the person being lied to. This is a way for them to gain control over a situation or a person.